--- Day changed Fri Nov 17 2017
00:02 < jonasschnelli> sipa: Indeed...
00:03 < jonasschnelli> sipa: those key-exchanges would have to be made for each single private key (input)?
00:07 < jonasschnelli> One downside: ability to use the HWW on any (untrusted) computer or cellphone ( == portability) would be lost.
00:08 < gmaxwell> why?
00:09 < sipa> heh?
00:11 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: sipa: maybe I'm not getting it. Is the key exchange only used for the nonce?
00:11 < sipa> yes     
00:12 < sipa> at signing time
00:15 < jonasschnelli> sipa: it would only protect from leaking private key via signatures?
00:15 < sipa> yes     
00:16 < jonasschnelli> What one probably wants is a security that the device have signed the data it has displayed on the device screen... I guess that hard to achieve
00:18 < jonasschnelli> But if we assume the host is not fully compromised, then this is not a big deal...
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00:20 < jonasschnelli> Example: Trezor is backdoored. You sign "Send 1 BTC to Bob" (verified with Trezor screen), while it actually signs "Send 1 BTC to Malory". Because your using the online Trezor wallet, it would go undetected.
00:23 < jonasschnelli> sipa: Thanks for that proposal.. I think that is something the Digital Bitbox guys will implement in the next (hardware) version!
00:24 < gmaxwell> well that wouldn't be detected if the host checks the resulting transaction and isn't compromised.
00:24 < jonasschnelli> I'm just worries how easy it is to screw up the implementation. :)
00:25 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: the problem is, users just love this browser based apps!.. they are so easy to compromise IMO
00:27 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell, sipa: by looking at a signature, is it impossible to say wether it has used RFC6979 or if it leaks potential key material?
00:27 < gmaxwell> sure, if the everything the user has is compromised you're out of luck. 
00:27 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: right you cannot tell.
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00:27 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: So there is a change that plenty of public signatures leak key material and that someone may have already collected those keys?
00:28 < gmaxwell> Yes, sure.
00:28 < jonasschnelli> I never thought of this... interesting
00:28 < gmaxwell> I think we haven't seen attacks like this because it is not (yet) a low hanging fruit.
00:28 < gmaxwell> Why bother understanding crypto when you can send the user an email that says "click here, you just won a free monkey."
00:29 < gmaxwell> and the user says "oh hey, I like monkies."  and then all their bitcoins are gone, no signature trickery required.
00:31 < midnightmagic> I want a free monkey!
00:31 < jonasschnelli> haha
00:31 < jonasschnelli> I mean consider the fact that (I think so) Ledger does program their devices in china... they could have implemented that "change"
00:32 < jonasschnelli> Although a firmware upgrade / verification would reveal that
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00:33 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: If you self-compile (and have verified that it uses RFC6979) the firmware, you are pretty safe from that attack? right?
00:33 < gmaxwell> how can you tell if it's using the code you think it is?
00:33 < wumpus> yes, the new malware going around on facebook seems to be more subtle psychology than free monkies, "hey I found a video of you", in which the link infects with a malware and auto-sends it to the other friends
00:33 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: self compile it?
00:33 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: aha.. I see
00:33 < wumpus> so many ways to manipulate people into clicking links, even those that don't like free monkeys :)
00:34 < wumpus> if something like that would include a wallet grabber it'd be pretty terrible
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00:39 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: if you have signed messages and the private key you can tell if 6979 was used by recomputing the nonces yourself, but thats not a useful way to secure a hardware wallet, since the point is to not have the private key laying around. :P  just testing once isn't good enough since an evil wallet could use 6979 for the first N uses or whatnot.
00:41 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: At least a special HWW function could recompute all your signatures and the desktop app could verify it agains the public ones...
00:42 < jonasschnelli> I really like the "nonce-leak-prevention"... the cost the implementation if worth the +security one can get
00:42 < jonasschnelli> *is worth
00:42 < jonasschnelli> And IMO there is no UX costs (if done right=
00:42 < gmaxwell> yes, no ux cost, just a little more data between the signer and host.
00:43 < gmaxwell> and some software.
00:43 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell, sipa: are you going to write a proposal?
00:44 < jonasschnelli> Or is that (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7a7i69/electrum_30_release/dpaetyn/?context=3=) the proposal?
00:45  * jonasschnelli falls asleep
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00:51 < wumpus> you're not in the CH timezone are you jonasschnelli :)
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01:06 < promag> wumpus: and you?
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01:06 < wumpus> I am
01:07 < promag> Heh     
01:07 < wumpus> it's morning here
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01:48 < wumpus> sigh @ #11466, I hate when something went through a review cycle and it's almost ready for merge
01:48 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11466 | Specify custom wallet directory with -walletdir param by MeshCollider · Pull Request #11466 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
01:49 < wumpus> then people come up with "you should do it like this instead"
01:49 < meshcollider> Yeah haha
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01:49 < meshcollider> wumpus: I'll rebase it now 
01:49 < wumpus> I know it's well meant, but it's no way to cooporate
01:50 < meshcollider> General consensus is that its fine as-is though I think, based on the feedback #11687 got
01:50 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11687 | External wallet files by ryanofsky · Pull Request #11687 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
01:50 < wumpus> users have been requesting a way to store their wallets somewhere else for ages
01:50 < meshcollider> Yeah and IMO its not safe enough to start separating them all over the show yet
01:50 < wumpus> so let's just add it, we can always add another mechanism later (then walletdir will just be the *default* wallet directory)
01:53 < wumpus> meshcollider: I agree, the other approach just isn't ready yet
01:53 < wumpus> and having a default wallet directory is useful too.
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01:55 < wumpus> meshcollider: yes please rebase, I hope I've saved your PR :)
01:56 < wumpus> I'll help testing it
01:57 < meshcollider> wumpus: rebased, thanks :)
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02:23 < meshcollider> Ah 1 sec there has been a change to walletbackup.py which I need to fix
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02:36 < wumpus> no hurry...
02:37 < meshcollider> Yep travis is passing now, let me know if you want me to squash the last commit into "Create walletdir if datadir doesn't exist and fix tests"
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03:05 < wumpus> meshcollider: seems to work as expected here
03:07 < wumpus> I'd hold off on the squashing, still reviewing/testing
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03:08 < meshcollider> wumpus: Okay
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03:11 < wumpus> I hopefully got someone else to test it as well
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03:16 < wumpus> the only problem with getting testers is that people tend to want it on top of 0.15.x, but if it's relevant for backport at all it makes no sense to do so before it's merged into master
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03:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/99bc0b428b03...41221126c855
03:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master af9103e James O'Beirne: [build] Add a script for installing db4...
03:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6e4cdd6 James O'Beirne: [docs] Add reference to install_db4.sh in OS X build instructions
03:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4122112 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11702: [build] Add a script for installing db4...
03:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11702: [build] Add a script for installing db4 (master...install-db4-script) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11702
03:46 < meshcollider> wumpus: Alright I'm heading to bed now, if you want I can squash the commits now or just do it tomorrow
03:46 < wumpus> I'm finished with it, ok with me to squash nwo
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03:47 < wumpus> I'll ACK
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03:52 < meshcollider> wumpus: done, thanks :)
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04:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/41221126c855...f6f8d54aff34
04:08 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 446e261 practicalswift: [qt] Fix potential memory leak in newPossibleKey(ChangeCWallet *wallet)
04:08 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f6f8d54 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #10920: [qt] Fix potential memory leak in newPossibleKey(ChangeCWallet *wallet)...
04:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #10920: [qt] Fix potential memory leak in newPossibleKey(ChangeCWallet *wallet) (master...fix-newPossibleKeyChange-memory-leak) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10920
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04:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f6f8d54aff34...ccc70a295fc5
04:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f9cd9b1 John Newbery: [tests] Move test_framework Bitcoin primitives into separate module...
04:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1135c79 John Newbery: [tests] Tidy up mininode.py module...
04:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ccc70a2 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11648: [tests] Add messages.py...
04:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11648: [tests] Add messages.py (master...add_primitives_py) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11648
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04:31 < promag> wumpus: are you going to merge #11466?
04:31 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11466 | Specify custom wallet directory with -walletdir param by MeshCollider · Pull Request #11466 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:32 < wumpus> promag: I intend to, but would prefer if it gets stilll some more testing of course
04:32 < promag> I was planning to test it after lunch
04:33 < wumpus> great! 
04:33 < promag> ok     
04:34 < wumpus> I just tested it quite extensively as I was the person to propose the change in the first place, but I didn't try e.g. multiwallet things (though I don't see why there'd be an issue)
04:37 < wumpus> but could always be some edge case
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04:55 < fanquake> Hope that wasn't too rude #11709
04:55 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11709 | issue : Message store directory does not exist · Issue #11709 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
04:57 < wumpus> fanquake: no, your response is clear and to the point, he's on his own there, we can't provide support for all the gazilion forks
04:58 < wumpus> and if he's able to use git enough to trace it back to our repository he's also able to find the person that made the relevant change for his altcoin...
05:00 < wumpus> I get loads of mail about altcoins as well because my mail is in the git log so often
05:01 < fanquake> Yea, I seem to get random messages on Twitter all the time. Get a few emails as well.
05:02 < fanquake> #11621 Should be able to go in now
05:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11621 | [build] Add temp_bitcoin_locale_qrc to CLEAN_QT to fix make distcheck by fanquake · Pull Request #11621 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:03 < fanquake> I might fixup 11222 over the weekend, and the original author doesn't seem to have time for it. 
05:03 < wumpus> fanquake: thanks
05:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ccc70a295fc5...1f7695b4194b
05:04 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a7c949f fanquake: [build] Add temp_bitcoin_locale_qrc to CLEAN_QT to fix make distcheck
05:04 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1f7695b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11621: [build] Add temp_bitcoin_locale_qrc to CLEAN_QT to fix make distcheck...
05:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11621: [build] Add temp_bitcoin_locale_qrc to CLEAN_QT to fix make distcheck (master...fix-osx-distcheck) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11621
05:05 < wumpus> fanquake: my reply there was a last ping, if he doesn't reply or pick it up again I'll close and add a 'up for grabs' label. But yes feel free to pick it up if it's worth doing so :)
05:08 < wumpus> apparently I stumbled on the issue exactly a month after cfields' last comment
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05:09 < fanquake> heh, it's easy for PRs to sit and idle for a long time. Little burst of activity and interest, and then it gets a few rebases out of date, or too far buried in the stream of new PRs
05:13 < fanquake> wumpus Thoughts on new PGP key additions? A few recently seem to be submitting their keys for addition before they've even gitian built. There's not really a rule about adding them?
05:14 < fanquake> I think jonass is right in that there are so few builders you don't want to turn anyone away. Keys can also easily be removed later on.
05:14 < wumpus> fanquake: that tends to happen, it's quite common for open source projects, especially busy ones. Though it can be sad if a certain PR gets no review interest at all, e.g. #10994
05:14 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10994 | Add option to avoid warning on certain network upgrades by ajtowns · Pull Request #10994 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:15 < wumpus> fanquake: we currently have no rules for that, because addition was so rare
05:15 < wumpus> fanquake: I think we should have rules for expiration, remove the key if someone isn't gitian building anymore for e.g. a year
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05:16 < wumpus> fanquake: but not for addition so much, if people can gitian build at this point they're awesome
05:16 < wumpus> fanquake: and he's proven he could do it at least once :)
05:16 < fanquake> Indeed https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gitian.sigs/graphs/contributors isn't a long list. Plenty of people in there that haven't built recently as well.
05:17 < wumpus> yes, even expiration might be overkill at this point, it's just not so much of an issue
05:17 < wumpus> not like the repository is getting cluttered with them
05:17 < fanquake> I think the fact that the build process is so much *easier* now is great. Can remember I struggled to get it working for a while.
05:18 < fanquake> Guess #11700 can go in then. If no-one objects.
05:18 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11700 | Add gitian PGP key: willyko by willyko · Pull Request #11700 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:19 < wumpus> agree
05:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1f7695b4194b...595ec11d804f
05:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f88d900 Willy Ko: Add gitian PGP key: willyko
05:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 595ec11 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11700: Add gitian PGP key: willyko...
05:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11700: Add gitian PGP key: willyko (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11700
05:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #11710: cli: Reject arguments to -getinfo (master...2017_11_getinfo_args) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11710
05:25 < fanquake> I think #11704 should be ok now. If sipsorcery is committed to getting the Windows build side of things in order, that'll be good.
05:25 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11704 | Windows build doc update by sipsorcery · Pull Request #11704 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:26 < wumpus> fanquake: it's great to have someone working on that
05:28 < wumpus> I'm going to edit his commit message a bit before merging, he put everything in the subject line
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05:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/595ec11d804f...ea68190132b2
05:32 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1cecea7 Aaron Clauson: doc: Specify required source location for Windows WSL builds...
05:32 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ea68190 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11704: Windows build doc update...
05:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11704: Windows build doc update (master...windoc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11704
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05:42 < fanquake> Still not sure about #11526 though. We had discussions about this with an Xcode project a while ago. Ended up in a separate repository, doesn't look like it lasted too long.
05:42 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11526 | Visual Studio build configuration for Bitcoin Core. by sipsorcery · Pull Request #11526 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:44 < wumpus> I don't know either. I like the idea of making MSVC build easier, but I don't want to expect from people to maintain two build systems when e.g. adding a file.
05:45 < wumpus> certainly not one that only runs on one platform
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05:46 < wumpus> I'm ok with merging it though, the author committed to maintaining MSVC support
05:47 < fanquake> There are some other PRs that need merging first. To fix compilation issues, and "a tonne of warnings" apparently. Should probably get those in fix at least, and see what other issues they turn up. If any.
05:47 < fanquake> Mostly in #11558
05:48 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11558 | Minimal code changes to allow msvc compilation by sipsorcery · Pull Request #11558 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:48 < fanquake> Corys comment re #11196 should get a look too I think
05:48 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11196 | Switch memory_cleanse implementation to BoringSSLs to ensure memory clearing even with -lto by maaku · Pull Request #11196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:49 < fanquake> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11196#discussion_r137124417
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06:00 < wumpus> #11558 is pretty much ready, though I agree with cfields' last comment
06:00 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11558 | Minimal code changes to allow msvc compilation by sipsorcery · Pull Request #11558 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
06:00 < wumpus> we should keep the compat header out of the headers
06:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ea68190132b2...5197100704b8
06:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e89adba Matt Corallo: Make default issue text all comments to make issues more readable
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06:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5197100 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11706: Make default issue text all comments to make issues more readable...
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06:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11706: Make default issue text all comments to make issues more readable (master...2017-11-shorter-default-issue-redux) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11706
06:02 < fanquake> Hopefully now the first line I'll see in issue emails will actually contain some information, rather than 99% of the time it being the template text.
06:03 < wumpus> oh yes that's annoying, almost everyone just kept the template text there, usually without even paying attention to it
06:04 < wumpus> I certainly understand why some bug reporting systems (e.g. bugzilla) make people fill in a form, instead of just offering a free text field
06:04 < fanquake> It's a trade off between capturing everything, and missing some obscure bug being reported by an unmotivated passer by
06:04 < wumpus> a template is apparently not a working substitute for that, well who knows, maybe BlueMatt's cleanups improve it
06:05 < wumpus> yes     
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06:10 < fanquake> wumpus trivial merge or close? #11140
06:10 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11140 | Trivial: Improve #endif comments by danra · Pull Request #11140 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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06:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #11711: bitcoin_qt.m4: Minor fixes and clean-ups. (master...bitcoin-qt-m4-cleanup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11711
06:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #11222: bitcoin_qt.m4: Minor fixes and clean-ups. (master...config-fixes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11222
06:28 < promag> I would say meh to 11140
06:29 < promag> the blocks are so small I would remove the comments, repeating the condition is kind of unnecessary there
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06:33 < wumpus> well he has a point w/ mentioning ==0, and it has an ACK so meh, i'm just going to merge it
06:34 < wumpus> promag: agree that the blocks are so small that mentinoing the condition on the endif is not necessary in the first place
06:34 < wumpus> but it's there, so it should be correct...
06:35 < fanquake> just merge it then heh
06:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5197100704b8...142913296f00
06:35 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ac1cf8d danra: Trivial: Improve #endif comments...
06:35 < promag> yes, at the moment the comment is misleading
06:35 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1429132 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11140: Trivial: Improve #endif comments...
06:35 < promag> hence the meh
06:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11140: Trivial: Improve #endif comments (master...patch-4) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11140
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06:37 < fanquake> wumpus looking in byteswap, does the protobuf check affect your work in 11622 at all?
06:37 < promag> wumpus: regarding #11466
06:37 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11466 | Specify custom wallet directory with -walletdir param by MeshCollider · Pull Request #11466 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
06:37 < promag> first time run is doesn't use -walletdir right?
06:37 < fanquake> I assume not looking at the comments, if the behaviour is assumed to be the same in either case
06:38 < wumpus> fanquake: I think it's harmless to run it, though maybe unnecessary, I don't know
06:38 < wumpus> fanquake: the test is there to check if there is a collision between protobuf and our bswap primitives, so it will always pass if protobuf is not included
06:39 < wumpus> promag: you mean when it's run when the datadir doesn't exist yet?
06:39 < promag> yes     
06:39 < wumpus> promag: that would be bad, let's see
06:39 < promag> it's building here so..
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06:57 < promag> wumpus: it creates datadir/wallets but uses the provided -walletdir
06:57 < wumpus> promag: yep, that's expected
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06:58 < wumpus> promag: there was earlier discussion about that: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11466#discussion_r150251905
06:59 < wumpus> not creating all new data directories (including when running without wallets) with a wallets subdirectory would enormously complicate things
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07:01 < promag> yes I saw that. But here I've provided -walletdir no there's no need (and no harm) creating datadir/wallets
07:01 < wumpus> it should still be created if you want to run without -walletdir later
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07:01 < wumpus> because if not it's too late - it's no longer a new data directory, so it will use legacy layout
07:02 < promag> right
07:02 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #9737: Don't disconnect feeler connections prematurely (master...ServicesIrrelevantForFeelerConnections) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9737
07:02 < promag> btw, why not validate walletdir before intro?
07:03 < promag> edge case?
07:03 < wumpus> it's a bit tricky but I think it's the most straightforward and easy to verify way to do this
07:03 < wumpus> promag: doing things before intro is extremely difficult
07:04 < wumpus> e.g. bitcoin.conf hasn't been read yet 
07:04 < wumpus> nor have per-network GUI settings
07:04 < wumpus> so if you'd validate walletdir before intro, you'd miss it if it's provided in bitcoin.conf
07:04 < promag> btw, if -walletdir points to a file, the error is still "Error: Specified wallet directory "/Users/promag/foo2" does not exist."
07:04 < wumpus> that could use a clearer error
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07:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #10172: Fix opt-in RBF reliance on compiler integer size (master...rbf-numlimits-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10172
07:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #10702: [Trivial] Improve end-of-namespace comment consistency (master...improve-end-of-namespace-comment-consistence) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10702
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07:34 < promag> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11648#discussion_r151709875
07:35 < promag> MarcoFalke: just a question, I saw the moveonly
07:35 < promag> now it can be cleaned right?
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07:40 < wumpus> promag: sure
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07:58 < MarcoFalke> promag: Not sure if that single change warrants a pull on its own
08:00 < MarcoFalke> I'd prefer if is cleaned up when the function is touched by other reasons. Though, no strong opinion. Just -0
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09:53 < meshcollider> wumpus: re net-specific walletdir subdirectories, what do you think of it just using them if they exist, but defaulting to root dir (so the user has to create the subdirectories themselves if they want them)
09:54 < meshcollider> Would be a much simpler change I think
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10:35 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: yeah. Not in CH timezone. Right now in Hawaii
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12:12 < jonasschnelli> is there a quick way to compile without tests (without re-configure)? I wish i could speed up compile time of pull requests for a quick test...
12:12 < jonasschnelli> compile time is a main show stopper for testing pulls
12:13 < BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: make src/bitcoind (or maybe its just make bitcoind?)
12:13 < jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: hmm.. yes. That could work (now all pre-built,.. need to test with a new PR)
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13:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #11712: [tests] Split NodeConn from NodeConnCB (master...split_nodeconn) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11712
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19:36 < meshcollider> should doc/files.md reflect what would be created on a clean install, or should it take into account legacy locations in use for compatibility?
19:38 < meshcollider> Specifically, for #11466, should I only mentioned wallets/database/*, wallets/db.log and wallets/wallet.dat ? Or does it need a node that they might be in the root dir instead?
19:38 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11466 | Specify custom wallet directory with -walletdir param by MeshCollider · Pull Request #11466 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
19:38 < meshcollider> s/node/note/
19:55 < sipa> noded.
19:57 < luke-jr> meshcollider: see the existing entries..
19:57 < luke-jr> there's separate section for old files
19:58 < meshcollider> luke-jr: Oh true, thanks
20:00 < meshcollider> luke-jr: but I'm unsure, because if you upgrade an existing node to, say, 0.16.0 when it is released, it will still use the old file location. This change only effects new installs
20:00 < meshcollider> Should that still just be in its own section at the bottom?
20:00 < luke-jr> not sure
20:01 < luke-jr> IMO do what makes sense to you, and see if anyone complains on the PR
20:01 < meshcollider> Alright sure :)
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22:24 < jonasschnelli> sipa: how can you leak specific data in ECDSA's r and s through nonce generation? Try and error until you have a couple of desired bytes at the end of r or s?
22:25 < gmaxwell> no.     
22:26 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: does it require to generate a bunch of signatures?
22:27 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: for a very dumb example,  set the nonce to be k = H(message hash || constant the attacker knows).   Now the attacker sees any transaction signed by this device, he instantly knows the nonce, and can determine the private key.   That was is kinda boring because other people could learn the value and steal those too.
22:27 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: so we can do better,  k = H( xQ || message)   where x is the user's private key, Q is some attacker public key.   now only the attacker can derrive the nonce and steal the users private key. 
22:29 < gmaxwell> To send a message, do any of the above schemes, but steal some bits of the nonce (like 16 bits) have the attacker try all of them and you send 16 bits of additional data per signature, while also giving the attacker each private key you signed with. For example the additional data could leak the chaining code, so the attacker could derrive all past and future keys as well.
22:30 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: but how does one extract the nonce from the signature?
22:31 -!- Netsplit over, joins: intcat
22:31 < gmaxwell> in the first example the attacker just does the same computation the wallet did to generate it.  In the second example,  the attacker takes his private key x'  and multiplies it by the users public key that is signing. k = H( x'P || message).
22:32 -!- Netsplit over, joins: ghost43, arubi
22:32 < gmaxwell> x'P == xQ   because  Q = x'G  and P = xG  so both of them are  x'xG.
22:32 < gmaxwell> (thats just ECDH)
22:33 < gmaxwell> so user and attacker compute the same shared secret, hash it with the message being signed.. and use that as the nonce.
22:33 < gmaxwell> so the attacker knows the nonce, and with the nonce can just derrive the secret key. 
22:34  * jonasschnelli reading and thinking... 
22:38 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: first Q. Why is H( xQ || message) better then H( attacker-constant || message)? Is there a difference if one learns the constant versus attackers pubkey Q?
22:38 < jonasschnelli> or is xQ ECDH?
22:39 < gmaxwell> imagine that some third party, not the attacker, and not the victim gets their hands on a backdoored device. They disassemble it and they learn the attacker-constant... then they could steal the coins themselves.
22:39 < meshcollider> jonasschnelli: you need the attacker's private key not the public key
22:39 < jonasschnelli> meshcollider: okay. I see. What notation is xQ? Multiplication?
22:40 < gmaxwell> with xQ  (the users private key times the attackers public key) then a third party which only knows the users and attacker's public keys, at msot, cannot steal the coins.
22:40 < jonasschnelli> Okay. Got that
22:40 < meshcollider> yes EC scalar multiplication 
22:40 < gmaxwell> so use of the ECDH is better because it makes the attack exclusive for the attacker. 
22:41 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Indeed
22:42 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: And with the 16 stealed nonce bits, you could export the devices 256bit master seed (requires 16 signatures)...
22:42 < jonasschnelli> But an attacked would have to try all 16bit combinations from all public known bitcoin signatures?
22:43 < gmaxwell> yes, so for each transaction he wants to check, he's have to do 2^16 hashes... which would take like.. a microsecond. :)
22:44 < jonasschnelli> okay.. I see
22:45 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell, meshcollider: Thanks. Got it. Thumbs up for the explanation...
22:45 < gmaxwell> given bitcoin transaction rates perhaps he could plausably steal 32 of those bits per signature instead of 16.
22:46 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: More stolen bytes = longer computation time? Thats the only limit, right?
22:48 < gmaxwell> yes, but it goes up exponentially.
22:49 < gmaxwell> to steal 4 extra-bytes per signature the attack is doing 2^32 work ... one thing an attacker might do is steal 16 bits in the first signature of a txn, and then 32 in all subsiquent signatures... so they can identify transactions relatively fast.
22:49 < gmaxwell> so a transaction with three inputs would leak 10 bytes of data.
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22:51 < jonasschnelli> And I guess if he got around 200bits of the HWW master seed, he can calculate the seed by deriving keys and compare against the signatures...
22:52 < gmaxwell> also there is an extra fun trick,  if the attack code picks the extra data by indexing   short  chaincode[16]; ...  extra_data = chaincode[messagehash%16];  then he might need to see many more than 16 signatures to steal the whole chain code.  But if first the chaincode is expanded up with error correction,  then the stolen data is a random chunk of the much larger error correction data... then 
22:52 < gmaxwell> the attacker will almost certantly be able to recover after seeing 16 signatures.  (for a 32 byte extra-secret).
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22:52 < gmaxwell> and of course in all of this, a single signature always leaks the private key of the public key it was signing for.
22:53 < gmaxwell> so the only reason to steal extra data is to just get a master secret for other accounts, or so it can steal coins for addresses that are only used once.
22:57 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: I don't understand the "pick extra data by indexing". But if a signature can leak 16 bits, wouldn't it always be sufficient to have 16 signatures to leak 256bit? Under the assumption the leak-data code does sufficient up-count of the "already-sent-index" (maybe through EEPROM usage to avoid power-loss reset)
23:02 < aj> jonasschnelli: yeah, if you didn't have EEPROM to know which bits to leak, you could pick the data to leak based on the hash you're signing, but then you'd need >>16 sigs to leak 256 bits
23:03 < aj> jonasschnelli: but if you do erasure coding, you could leak 256 bits in 16 sigs without needing an EEPROM
23:04 < jonasschnelli> Ah. Now I got it (partially understand erasure coding).
23:06 < jonasschnelli> Conclusion: Only HODL with HWW's until sipa's proposed scheme is available. :)
23:07 < jonasschnelli> I mean the MCU on the PCB could be tempered. Could have 512kb flash instead of 256kb and could shadow the bootloader/firmware... hard to impossible to detect I guess.
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