--- Log opened Thu Aug 09 00:00:35 2018 00:01 < sipa> Jmabsd: there are various standardness rules 00:02 < sipa> certain scriot opcodes are nonstandard when executed in a spend 00:02 < sipa> there are resource limits like sizes and signature check limits 00:02 < sipa> Jmabsd: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com may be a better place to ask these things 00:03 < Jmabsd> sipa: hm 00:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:43 -!- ken2812221 [~User@1.200.203.30] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:49 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:01 -!- ken2812221 [~User@1.200.203.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03 -!- ken2812221 [~User@1.200.203.30] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:38 -!- timothy [~tredaelli@redhat/timothy] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:46 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:bc4c:4a0b:c60a:cc28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:11 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:17 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:29 -!- Jmabsd [~jmabsd@pcd247152.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:46 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 02:56 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:31 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 03:38 < jonasschnelli> sipa: I that correct that the Cores existing ChaCha20 implementation is for RNG only? It doesn't do the XORing, right? 03:58 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:23 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:36 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 04:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:51 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 04:56 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 04:59 -!- tryphe_ [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:01 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [] 05:22 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:34 -!- Victorsueca [~Victorsue@unaffiliated/victorsueca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 05:35 -!- Victorsueca [~Victorsue@unaffiliated/victorsueca] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 05:51 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [] 06:03 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:11 -!- provoostenator [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1 - http://znc.in] 06:20 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:25 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:32 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:46 -!- provoostenator [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:51 -!- provoostenator [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:57 -!- provoostenator [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:00 -!- opdenkamp [~opdenkamp@kodi/staff/dushmaniac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04 -!- provoostenator [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:04 -!- provoost- [~vwDZ2BYsc@2a05:d014:5f:e100:fd30:8af7:2d6a:cbb1] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:04 -!- provoost- is now known as provoostenator 07:05 -!- opdenkamp [~opdenkamp@kodi/staff/dushmaniac] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:10 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:dd6a:5f9a:26cf:fc13] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:14 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:dd6a:5f9a:26cf:fc13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16 -!- ExtraCrispy [~ExtraCris@185.9.18.150] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:36 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:45 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@50-193-59-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:54 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:01 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@50-193-59-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01 < gmaxwell> sipa: results from running 13907? 08:13 < pierre_rochard> Hello, if anyone here has done a clang AST dump of the project, what command did you use? I'm interested in using python with libclang to traverse the AST 08:14 < pierre_rochard> I've tried export CXXFLAGS="$CXXFLAGS -ast-dump" && make, to no effect, not sure if I'm going down the wrong rabbit hole and google doesn't have salient results 08:16 < pierre_rochard> searching the repo turned up this recent comment from skeees https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13815#issuecomment-409795628 which makes it sound like a material undertaking 08:30 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:48ef:5333:1dd9:f507] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:31 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:48ef:5333:1dd9:f507] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:53 -!- harrigan [~harrigan@skynet.skynet.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:53 -!- goatpig [56eece80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.238.206.128] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:59 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:4d81:5aad:4e20:8f2] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:03 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:4d81:5aad:4e20:8f2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:07 -!- Dizzle [~dizzle@108.171.182.16] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:27 -!- Victorsueca [~Victorsue@unaffiliated/victorsueca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:28 -!- Victorsueca [~Victorsue@unaffiliated/victorsueca] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:33 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:42 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@2001:1284:f022:523f:ad86:72f3:342c:c25d] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:53 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:86a:9ce4:4153:2fc9] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:57 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:86a:9ce4:4153:2fc9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:00 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:48ef:5333:1dd9:f507] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05 < wumpus> pierre_rochard: I did some analysis of the bitcoin source using clang a long time ago, using the python clang bindings (clang.cindex) 10:05 < wumpus> hooking any kind of analysis tool in the build system is a pain, so I manually provided include paths and such 10:05 < pierre_rochard> wumpus: that's what I was hoping to use, after reading through this guide https://eli.thegreenplace.net/2011/07/03/parsing-c-in-python-with-clang 10:05 < pierre_rochard> ah I see 10:05 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@2001:1284:f022:523f:ad86:72f3:342c:c25d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08 < wumpus> cindex doesn't need it (it can parse on the fly through the API), but to add an analysis tool into the build system one way to do so is by creating a compiler wrapper that outputs both normal output and the metadata output (ast, bitcode, stats, etc). If it doesn't do the former it will fail when trying to link. 10:09 < wumpus> I don't know if there's an official autotools-supported way 10:09 < wumpus> like "call this tool as if you'd be calling a C/C++ compiler but don't touch the output" 10:10 < wumpus> yes, that idea 10:11 < pierre_rochard> ok in that case I'll try my hand at using cindex directly, instead of doing an ast dump and parsing that 10:12 < wumpus> might be I even used the same guide :) 10:12 < wumpus> yes, that's easier, I think, certainly initially 10:16 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:45a2:ff49:9262:96fa] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:24 < gmaxwell> sipa: grep logs! 10:24 < sipa> jonasschnelli: right 10:25 -!- elkalamar [~elkalamar@unaffiliated/elkalamar] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:39 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:45a2:ff49:9262:96fa] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:42 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:42 < sipa> gmaxwell: no 'locator' message in my log 10:44 < gmaxwell> hurrah. 10:44 < gmaxwell> sipa: you have net logging enabled, right? 10:45 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:45a2:ff49:9262:96fa] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:45 < sipa> gmaxwell: oh, no 10:46 < sipa> -log=net ? 10:46 < sipa> oh, -debug=net 10:46 < gmaxwell> Right 10:50 < pierre_rochard> wumpus: got cindex working directly, thank you! 10:54 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58 < wumpus> pierre_rochard: awesome 11:02 -!- Chatturga [adf1904d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.241.144.77] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:02 -!- timothy [~tredaelli@redhat/timothy] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:16 -!- Dizzle [~dizzle@108.171.182.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29 < achow101> it seems like travis isn't triggering for some PRs 11:37 < wumpus> which one? 11:42 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@104.129.28.58] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:45 -!- elkalamar [~elkalamar@unaffiliated/elkalamar] has left #bitcoin-core-dev ["Leaving"] 11:45 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:50 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:54 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:55 -!- promag [~promag@83.223.227.99] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:55 -!- clarkmoody [~clarkmood@47-218-248-206.bcstcmta04.res.dyn.suddenlink.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:01 < sipa> meetung? 12:02 < luke-jr> hi 12:02 < instagibbs> #meeting 12:02 < gmaxwell> Hi. 12:02 < provoostenator> hi 12:02 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:03 < jnewbery> hi 12:04 < achow101> hi 12:04 < meshcollider> Is wumpus here? 12:04 < gmaxwell> now we must hunt the wumpus 12:04 < Chatturga> hello 12:05 < sipa> i'll act as pseudowumpus 12:05 < sipa> #startmeeting 12:05 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 9 19:05:13 2018 UTC. The chair is sipa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 12:05 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 12:05 < sipa> topics? 12:06 < sipa> we still have quite a few PRs marked 0.17 12:06 < sipa> should we discuss low-R sigs? 12:07 < achow101> +1 12:07 < jonasschnelli> hi 12:07 < meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator 12:07 < meshcollider> hi 12:07 < jnewbery> 01:59 < aj> wumpus: in case i'm not awake for the meeting, topic suggestion: lower tx fees, pr #13922 :) 12:07 < meshcollider> +1 12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13922 | Lower default relay fees by ajtowns · Pull Request #13922 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 12:08 < sipa> perhaps first let's ask around if there are things for 0.17 that deserve the milestone 12:09 < sipa> i guess that's a no 12:09 < sipa> #topic low-r signatures 12:09 < Murch> hi 12:09 < sipa> pull request #13666 12:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13666 | Always create signatures with Low R values by achow101 · Pull Request #13666 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHubAsset 1Asset 1 12:09 < wumpus> ohh sorry! 12:10 < luke-jr> wumpus: too late, you're fired :p 12:10 < wumpus> luke-jr: :p 12:10 < sipa> one issue with the approach is that we need to guess whether signatures created by other software will be assumed to be 71 bytes as well 12:10 < sipa> as brought up by wumpus in the PR 12:11 < sipa> (for size estimation purposes) 12:11 < wumpus> yes the size estimation is the only controversial part there imo 12:11 < achow101> this is only a problem when we select watching-only inputs 12:11 < sipa> as we're getting closer to branching off, i wonder if we shouldn't just punt on that 12:11 < wumpus> obviously it's better to generate smaller signatures where possible 12:11 < gmaxwell> well we could easily make the size estimate 71 for our keys, and 72 otherwise, and worry about the difference later. 12:11 < sipa> achow101's code right now will assume 71 byte signatures if we have the keys for everything, and 72 in any other case 12:12 < Murch> That seems safe. 12:12 < wumpus> that heuristic makes sense I think 12:12 < gmaxwell> that seems reasonable enough. 12:12 < gmaxwell> even if we always estimated 72, I'd rather make the smaller signatures. 12:12 < wumpus> exactly, it's kind-of independent 12:12 < sipa> yes, i don't think the discussion is about whether or not to produce 71 byte signatures 12:12 < sipa> we should always do so 12:13 < achow101> imo estimating 72 bytes kind of defeats the purpose of producing 71 byte sigs 12:13 < Murch> it doesn't 12:13 < wumpus> it still takes less space in the block chain. 12:13 < gmaxwell> achow101: might defeat _your_ purpose. :P 12:13 < luke-jr> achow101: nah, you get value in feerate 12:13 < Murch> You're still getting a higher effective fee rate and block space savings 12:13 < wumpus> and you get better feerate, yep 12:13 < gmaxwell> what wumpus said. it still economizes use of a public resource, and you still get higher priority. 12:14 < sipa> in any case, 12:14 < sipa> #action review 13666 12:14 < sipa> it adds a bit of complexity by adding a second dummy signer 12:14 < Murch> might save some 3kB per block or so. 12:14 < Murch> If everyone did it 12:15 < wumpus> yes 12:15 * luke-jr wonders if we should look into getting rid of the Segwit dummy/flags too 12:15 < provoostenator> You can always add a param to the RPC that says "assume 71 " 12:15 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:15 < luke-jr> ofc that doesn't affect the consensus limits, so not incentivised :/ 12:16 < sipa> well, thinking ahead, we may need that anyway - in case more complicated scripts are supported, the size may depend on what subset of signers is present 12:16 < sipa> but that seems too late for 0.17 12:16 < wumpus> provoostenator: I'm... not sure it's good to add such little implementation details to RPC, but maybe a more general fee estimation strategy can be exposed such way 12:16 < wumpus> yes, definitely 12:16 < provoostenator> Luckily the RPC is experimental 12:16 < gmaxwell> rpc would be a bad place for it 12:16 < sipa> or rather, we may need to add a way to pass in information about other signers to transaction creation RPS 12:16 < sipa> RPCs 12:16 < Murch> @provoostenator: I don't think that there is sufficient use of multi party transactions and savings to add a param for that. 12:17 < gmaxwell> the right place would be as metadata on the keys/outputs in the wallet. 12:17 < sipa> gmaxwell: how so? 12:17 < sipa> ah yes, but the 71/72 thing - agree 12:17 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:18 < sipa> luke-jr: i don't know what you're referring to? 12:18 < gmaxwell> sipa: just that the size of an scriptpubkey's signature is just a property of the private key(s). 12:18 < sipa> gmaxwell: yes, indeed 12:18 < gmaxwell> just like the pubkey part of the scriptsig being 65 or 33 bytes. 12:19 < sipa> do we have other topics? 12:20 < gmaxwell> in any case, for now its fine to just assume 72 unless we know otherwise. In the future we can be smarter. 12:20 < Murch> the problem will be permanently solved by the new signature encoding that is proposed for Schnorr signatures anyway. 12:20 < luke-jr> sipa: just that the dummy 2 bytes in every Segwit tx could be eliminated on the network/disk level, if we're trying to focus on micro-optimisations of space 12:20 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:45a2:ff49:9262:96fa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: far far better than that can be done. 12:20 < sipa> luke-jr: sure; and much more than that, we should look into compressing all data on the wire 12:20 < sipa> we have someone looking into that 12:21 < meshcollider> You had a whole write-up on a compressed transaction format earlier didn't you 12:21 < sipa> meshcollider: yes, there's a bunch of improvements and simplifications 12:21 < sipa> which we haven't published 12:21 < sipa> 19:07:19 < jnewbery> 01:59 < aj> wumpus: in case i'm not awake for the meeting, topic suggestion: lower tx fees, pr #13922 :) 12:21 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13922 | Lower default relay fees by ajtowns · Pull Request #13922 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 12:21 < sipa> #topic lower tx fees, pr 13922 12:22 < Murch> "it changes the min tx fee to 200 s/B, and the incremental relay fee to 100 s/B" doesn't he mean s/kB? 12:22 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:22 < gmaxwell> and is that kVB not B? 12:23 < jnewbery> (I don't have any input on this topic except to concept ACK the PR. Only relaying aj's earlier message) 12:23 < Murch> yeah, kvB 12:23 < gmaxwell> I feel pretty meh about dropping feerates. I guess 200 isn't that much of a change but at some level we get back in spamflood level land. 12:23 < sipa> i have no opinion on this topic 12:24 < luke-jr> it's low enough I don't care; I'd prefer to see users adopt changes manually rather than top-down default modifications, but meh 12:24 < Murch> gmaxwell: I think that reducing the fee could drive some UTXO consolidation 12:24 < gmaxwell> or cause waiting until it's dropped further. 12:25 < luke-jr> Murch: if that's the goal, maybe it should explicitly look for that 12:25 < Murch> I've observed that time preference signaling has improved a lot this year. One of our customers explicitly waited for us to allow a fee rate of 2 sats/B before consolidating. 12:26 < Murch> If 0.2 sats/B were possible, I'd not be surprised to see some more of that. 12:27 < gmaxwell> Well lets try it, but if things go wonky it can be set back. 12:27 < Murch> We do have small fee spikes every now and then again. I think that we'd get a backlog of consolidations at least part of the time, hopefully consistently in the future. 12:27 < Murch> The biggest issue is that most miners don't mine anything below 1 sats/B 12:28 < gmaxwell> in terms of the patch, I'm not sure it's doing it correctly as is. Basically we must lower relay and mining behavior before wallet... changing the estimator to allow low estimates before we know they reliably propagate will cause stuck users. 12:28 < Murch> (showing as a solid backlog below 1 sat/B, even when blocks have space left) 12:28 < luke-jr> Murch: well, if that's the case, it would be bad to drop relay fees lower 12:28 < Murch> I don't follow. 12:29 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: the theory is if the defaults change the behavior will too. 12:29 < sipa> luke-jr: i'm sure miners don't allow below 1 vsat/B _because_ the network doesn't relay them 12:29 < Murch> Ah I see. 12:29 < gmaxwell> Murch: luke's point is that we shouldn't be relaying things that won't get mined. 12:29 < Murch> Yeah, miners tend to lag behind on adoption of new versions 12:30 < luke-jr> has anyone discussed this with any miners? 12:30 < Murch> It would already help if we found a few percent of the hash rate that tells us they would support it 12:30 < luke-jr> Murch: this is a matter of policy, not versions. defaults are just defaults. 12:30 < sipa> so 1) reduce the minimum feerate the mining code works at 2) if/when that gets adopted, start relaying below 1 3) if/when that gets adopted, make fee estimation work with it 12:30 < Murch> My suspicion is that most miners don't much fiddle with defaults. 12:31 < Murch> seems like a reasonable order of things 12:32 < luke-jr> Murch: they should. this is their job, not developers' 12:32 < gmaxwell> can we not have this debate here and now. 12:32 < provoostenator> My main concern with allowing sub 1 satoshi / vbyte fees is that - when fees are low - there's going to be a good chance the users transaction doesn't propagate. 12:32 < gmaxwell> it's really tedious. 12:32 < Murch> luke-jr: IF they were engaging at that level of the technology, they wouldn't be running mining operations of RaspberryPis, lag behind multiple versions causing orphans, and similar things. 12:33 < gmaxwell> provoostenator: that was my comment above, relay/mining behavior needs to change ahead of wallet behavior, they can't both change at once. 12:34 < provoostenator> gmaxwell: ah I see, by keeping the wallet minimum at 1 sat / byte, that makes sense. 12:34 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, mining needs to change, then relay, then wallet 12:34 < phantomcircuit> but none of the first two have a reason to change without the later 12:34 < phantomcircuit> sooo 12:34 < achow101> gmaxwell: so at best, this would need to be deployed across two versions 12:34 < gmaxwell> achow101: yes. 12:34 < wumpus> at least 12:34 < achow101> which means, at this point, it's a year and a half out 12:34 < achow101> and by then, who knows what fees will be like 12:34 < luke-jr> they can be minor versions 12:35 < phantomcircuit> achow101, and realistically miners do change the defaults so... 12:35 < wumpus> it depends, we can see the adoption 12:35 < wumpus> and decide when (if ever) the wallet part can go in 12:35 < gmaxwell> as luke-jr says. also users can locally override their wallets once they know that lower rates will confirm. 12:35 < wumpus> yes 12:35 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: we can handle some things getting relayed that don't get mined at least... (now, not so much years ago) 12:36 < Murch> phantomcircuit: It's enough if a portion of the hashrate adopts the change to make it's use a viable strategy for low time-preference txes. 12:37 < Murch> Talking to miners would be a good idea 12:37 < gmaxwell> I'd really like it if there wouldn't need to be these thresholds at all, but unfortunately, solving making it all automatic seems excessively hard. 12:38 < gmaxwell> In any case, I'd review and ack a split up that moved the relay/mining defaults and left the wallet parts up for a later version. 12:40 < sipa> any other topics? 12:40 < Murch> So, pseudowumpus sipa, anything else on your agenda? 12:41 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: I thought the current PR already left wallet alone 12:41 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, automating all these levels would be vastly simplified by efficient mempool sync 12:41 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: ah, haven't checked. 12:41 < phantomcircuit> which im sure you know :P 12:41 < sipa> phantomcircuit: you can't automate the decision on incremental relay feerate 12:41 < sipa> as it's not mempool dependent but bandwidth cost dependent 12:42 < sipa> wumpus: you have any other topics? 12:42 < luke-jr> sipa: not your own nodes cost directly, though? since you're not getting paid for it; so measuring bandwidth availability may be sufficient? 12:43 < wumpus> nope! 12:43 < sipa> luke-jr: if you'd set it to 0, you can be pushed into arbitrarily high bandwidth usage by an attacker 12:43 < wumpus> the 0.17 list basically 12:44 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: for incremental, it's relatively important that the behavior be consistent. Thats largely at odds with automating it, unfortunately. 12:44 < sipa> yeah, let's just take further discussion to the individual PRs 12:44 < sipa> #endmeeting 12:44 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Aug 9 19:44:38 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 12:44 < lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-08-09-19.05.html 12:44 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-08-09-19.05.txt 12:44 < lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-08-09-19.05.log.html 12:44 < wumpus> #13808 certainly needs more review 12:44 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13808 | wallet: shuffle coins before grouping, where warranted by kallewoof · Pull Request #13808 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 12:44 < luke-jr> sipa: right, but if you set it to some formula based on measured bandwidth available.. 12:45 < wumpus> if not, I'd be inclined to postpone it 12:45 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: measuring bandwidth is basically intractable. :) 12:46 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: could also query the network router for that info in theory 12:47 < gmaxwell> which is will virtually never know... 12:47 < sipa> and your ISP's cost, and the bitcoin exchange rate? 12:48 < luke-jr> sipa: you're not receiving the tx fee, so just a general cost estimate should be good enough I would think? 12:48 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:e194:ac99:eaad:c045] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:48 < luke-jr> maybe not perfect, but probably better than manually adjusting defaults on the current level 12:50 < gmaxwell> sipa: so, now that you're logging right, any results? 12:51 < sipa> 2018-08-09T18:55:00.534227Z getblocks locator size 101 > 64, disconnect peer=414 12:52 < sipa> 2018-08-09T18:55:00.301077Z receive version message: /bitcoinj:0.14.7/Bitcoin Wallet:6.28/: version 70001, blocks=535894, us=127.0.0.1:8333, peer=414 12:54 < gmaxwell> So, as evoskuil said, 101 though.. not 100. Moronic behavior. So, should I just back the PR off to 101? 12:58 -!- promag [~promag@83.223.227.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:02 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 13:07 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:07 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:15 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:23 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:24 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:28 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29 -!- Chatturga [adf1904d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.241.144.77] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:34 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:35 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:45 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 13:49 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:52 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:58 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S010660e327dca171.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:01 -!- clarkmoody [~clarkmood@47-218-248-206.bcstcmta04.res.dyn.suddenlink.net] has quit [] 14:09 -!- Murchone [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:09 -!- Murchone [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:24 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:24 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:45 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 14:49 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:50 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:57 -!- roshii [adf1904d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.241.144.77] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:57 -!- roshii [adf1904d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.241.144.77] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:59 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:00 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 15:02 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 15:19 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:20 < gmaxwell> [ot, an outright backdoor in VIA C3 cpu] https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/rosenbridge 15:32 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:38 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:41 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:e194:ac99:eaad:c045] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:e194:ac99:eaad:c045] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:52 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has quit [] 16:10 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:15 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:25 -!- Victorsueca [~Victorsue@unaffiliated/victorsueca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26 -!- Victorsueca [~Victorsue@unaffiliated/victorsueca] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:49 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:52 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:e194:ac99:eaad:c045] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53 -!- goatpig [56eece80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.238.206.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:e194:ac99:eaad:c045] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:21 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:e194:ac99:eaad:c045] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:cdf0:eac1:6635:6c35] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:23 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:30 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-72-54-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 17:32 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 18:02 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:cdf0:eac1:6635:6c35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@c-24-4-39-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:05 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, any mention of the original purpose of the co processor? 18:09 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@208.59.170.5] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 18:10 < luke-jr> phantomcircuit: tpearson seems to think it's clearly designed for the purpose of being a backdoor (#Talos-workstation) 18:18 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:cdf0:eac1:6635:6c35] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 18:27 < gmaxwell> it's really weird that it gets commands just raw out of the instruction stream like that. 18:31 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:cdf0:eac1:6635:6c35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:cdf0:eac1:6635:6c35] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:04 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:cdf0:eac1:6635:6c35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:17 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 19:25 -!- Jmabsd [~jmabsd@pcd247152.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:31 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:38 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:10 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@208.59.170.5] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:18 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@69.161.195.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:5d6a:957c:5f77:b839] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:31 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@223.206.99.125] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:47 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48 -!- vicenteH [~user@54.104.135.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 20:51 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:5d6a:957c:5f77:b839] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51 -!- Deacyde [~Deacyde@unaffiliated/deacyde] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 21:10 -!- no_input_found [no_input_f@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/noinputfound/x-24977668] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:11 -!- no_input_found [no_input_f@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/noinputfound/x-24977668] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 21:47 -!- jhfrontz [~Adium@50-193-59-58-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 22:10 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:81b:b3f7:6ebf:412a] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 22:28 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:81b:b3f7:6ebf:412a] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:30 < ossifrage> gmaxwell, I've seen other processors with bolt-ons that do the same thing. I guess it can be lower overhead then having the co-processor show up in the memory map 22:32 < ossifrage> I can't imagine you'd want to do it in a deeply OOO processor though, but if you have a simple pipeline it might be an easy choice 22:56 < gmaxwell> sipa: any new grep results (anything higher than 101?) 23:04 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:383f:2670:fea3:68c2] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:05 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:07 < sipa> gmaxwell: no, just 101 23:33 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@223.206.99.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39 -!- Jmabsd [~jmabsd@pcd247152.netvigator.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42 -!- Jmabsd [~jmabsd@pcd247152.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:42 < Jmabsd> the nomenclature "scriptPubKey" and "scriptSig", is this for historical reasons as in back in 2009 you had P2PK so the output script was literally a "script-with-a-pub-key-in-it", and the input has a "script-with-a-signature-in-it", hence scriptPubKey and scriptSig ?? 23:44 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:383f:2670:fea3:68c2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:46 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@69.161.195.103] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:54 -!- masonicboom [~masonicbo@2600:8802:5501:17c0:383f:2670:fea3:68c2] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev --- Log closed Fri Aug 10 00:00:35 2018