--- Log opened Thu Nov 08 00:00:15 2018
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00:40 < meshcollider> luke-jr: you already have #14532 on high-priority, are you sure you're allowed another ;)
00:40 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14532 | Never bind INADDR_ANY by default, and warn when doing so explicitly by luke-jr · Pull Request #14532 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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00:46 < luke-jr> meshcollider: probably not, forgot about that one XD
00:46 < luke-jr> guess it will have to wait
00:46 < meshcollider> instagibbs: what do you mean by "xpub byte prefix mismatch" in the descriptor import PR? Mismatch with what?
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01:03 < sipa> meshcollider: i assume if you try a testnet xpub on mainnet etc
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04:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mruddy opened pull request #14687: zmq: enable tcp keepalive (master...zmq-keep-alive) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14687
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04:25 < Ramis_> Hello, nice to meet you all, i have a question, can someone tell me if i can change mycoin value from basecli ? i am learning tendermint so was wondering am i able to alter the value of my wallet without sending/receiving,without altering any file through the basecli command is it possible ? 
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04:30 < _cryptosignal_me> Hello Everybody
04:32 < _cryptosignal_me> aj
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05:51 < instagibbs> sipa, right, xpub vs tpub
05:51 < instagibbs> see https://github.com/achow101/HWI/pull/47#issuecomment-436800857
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06:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] harding opened pull request #14688: Doc: update release notes for changes since 0.17.0 branch (master...2018-11-release-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14688
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07:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #14689: Require a public key to be retrieved when signing a P2PKH input (master...fix-pkh-pubkeys) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14689
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07:17 < achow101> instagibbs: provoostenator: ^
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07:31 < promag> jonasschnelli: are you still working on #7949?
07:31 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7949 | [RPC] Add RPC long poll notifications by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #7949 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:32 < promag> or plan to?
07:37 < jamesob> Hey, you around?
07:37 < jamesob> oops - wrong window :)
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08:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] conscott opened pull request #14691: Speedup feature_pruning test and refactor big transaction logic (master...2018_11_opreturn_splices) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14691
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09:31 < provoostenator> Drahbot says "The following sections might be updated with supplementary metadata" -> "No conflicts as of last run"
09:31 < provoostenator> Maybe it should hold off on posting its first comment until there's something to say?
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09:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e52781067bb4...e70a19e7132d
09:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa4da3c MarcoFalke: [doc] conf: Remove deprecated options from docs, Other cleanup...
09:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e70a19e MarcoFalke: Merge #14684: [doc] conf: Remove deprecated options from docs, Other cleanup...
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09:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #14684: [doc] conf: Remove deprecated options from docs, Other cleanup (master...Mf1609-trivialPre14) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14684
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10:01 < esotericnonsense> promag: hmm. it seems to me like what should probably happen is rip out zmq and replace it with that. it feels bizarre to have multiple notification mechanisms.
10:02 < esotericnonsense> the 'subscribe/unsubscribe' layer also feels like perhaps making RPC more complex/stateful than it needs to be, if this is someone's specific use case can't they just do it?
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10:02 < promag> I don't think we should throw away zmq though
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10:03 < esotericnonsense> i'll be looking in to this stuff a bit in the next few days I think, but I suspect what I'll be doing is just using the existing mechanisms through a proxy
10:03 < esotericnonsense> i.e. you have bitcoind <-> bitcoind-api-i-actually-want-for-my-program <-> consumer(s)
10:04 < esotericnonsense> promag: neither do I, actually I think it should just go through zmq :P
10:04 < esotericnonsense> (e.g. in the hashtx hashblock case - just write another thing that does it)
10:04 < sipa> but ZMQ is unreliable?
10:05 < esotericnonsense> lol
10:05  * esotericnonsense has deja vu
10:05 < esotericnonsense> i feel like the last time I was here something like a year ago we had the same discussion and sequence numbers and other solutions came up
10:05 < sipa> hah
10:06 < esotericnonsense> the whole thing very much feels like a "who actually wants to use this" thing
10:06 < esotericnonsense> i.e. if you have a use case for it, implement it
10:07 < promag> I just asked if jonasschnelli was planning to update his PR :P
10:07 < esotericnonsense> hehe
10:08 < esotericnonsense> if I actually get to the point of my RPC proxy being usable it might be informative, because it does look like at the moment I might end up just using every different RPC interface together and combining them all into a rest api
10:08 < esotericnonsense> but I'm kind of lazy and would probably just hack around weirdnesses in bitcoind rather than fix them (because I don't actually know what a fix looks like for anyone other than me)
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10:18 < ezzzy> would you people suggest en.bitcoin.it or bitcoin.org as a reference for the protocol (for client implementors)?
10:21 < esotericnonsense> ezzzy: for the p2p protocol I'd suggest the code itself since any re-implementation has a hard requirement of being bug-for-bug compatible
10:22 < sipa> esotericnonsense: only if you reimplement consensus rules (which I'd advise against)
10:23 < sipa> but implementing the P2P protocol... follow the bitcoin.org developer docs
10:23 < MarcoFalke> [12:31] <provoostenator> Maybe it should hold off on posting its first comment until there's something to say?
10:23 < ezzzy> this is for educational purposes so I'd like to reimplement the consensus rules too
10:23 < MarcoFalke> I have the feeling this is going back and forth
10:23 < sipa> ezzzy: what do you hope to learn? all the nitty details of exactly which opcode does what?
10:24 < MarcoFalke> But since GitHub will update the most recently changed when someone edits a comment I think I can change it back to only create the comment when there is information
10:24 < sipa> my personal belief is that contributing to an existing project is a far more useful learning experience
10:24 < MarcoFalke> Also: 6:21 PM ( Time in Reykjavík, Iceland )
10:25 < instagibbs> what is the meeting time again, in Reyk time
10:26 < sipa> Meeting in half an hour.
10:28 < sipa> that's the email presumably? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DrZpk4JWkAALYK4.jpg:large
10:28 < sipa> oops, wrong window
10:28 < instagibbs> and the wallet meeting?
10:28 < sipa> instagibbs: every two weeks
10:28 < sipa> 24 hours after the other one
10:28 < sipa> this week there is not one
10:29 < ezzzy> sipa: I think there's a lot to learn in the process since it involves cryptography, network protocols, p2p, databases, testing all of the above etc.
10:29 < sipa> ezzzy: well, good luck :)
10:29 < ezzzy> thx :)
10:32 < sipa> instagibbs: so 7 pm UTC
10:32 < sipa> is the meeting time always
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10:38 < ezzzy> do you suggest using testnet or is there better alternatives for testing new implementations?
10:39 < sipa> ezzzy: off topic here, as this channel is about bitcoin core specifically, but you may find help on https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com
10:39 < ezzzy> cool, thx
10:46 < MarcoFalke> #14437 has some conflicts (none with high priority), so I'd like to merge it after maybe 1-2 more reviews before it gets stale again
10:46 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14437 | Refactor: Start to separate wallet from node by ryanofsky · Pull Request #14437 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:00 < sipa> meetime?
11:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
11:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov  8 19:00:04 2018 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
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11:00 < provoostenator> hi
11:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
11:00 < instagibbs> hi
11:00 < wumpus> topic proposals?
11:01 < sipa> suggested topic: utility vs rpc? (#14671)
11:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14671 | Utility to replace RPC calls that dont need wallet or chain context · Issue #14671 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:01 < achow101> hi
11:01 < wumpus> yes that's a good one, that comes up very often
11:02 < luke-jr> preferably a separate repo entirely IMO
11:02 < sipa> suggested topic: [RFC] for future of RNG #14623
11:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14623 | [RFC] Built-in RNG design · Issue #14623 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:02 < meshcollider> hi 
11:02 < wumpus> #topic high priority for review
11:02 < phantomcircuit> hi
11:02 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 anything to add or remove?
11:03 < wumpus> luke-jr achow101 phantomcircuit sipa ryanofsky currently have open PRs there
11:03 < provoostenator> Some of the hardware wallet support would be nice to add, e.g. the overhaul PR by sipa.
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11:03 < luke-jr> well, I rebased rwconf (#11082), but now #14532 is in the way :x
11:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11082 | Add new bitcoin_rw.conf file that is used for settings modified by this software itself by luke-jr · Pull Request #11082 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14532 | Never bind INADDR_ANY by default, and warn when doing so explicitly by luke-jr · Pull Request #14532 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:03 < wumpus> he already has #14477
11:03 -!- gwollon is now known as gwillen
11:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14477 | Add ability to convert solvability info to descriptor by sipa · Pull Request #14477 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:03 < provoostenator> luke-jr I'll review that one soonish, as well as rebase my work on top of it.
11:04 < sipa> i think of my PRs, 14646 is probably blocking more
11:04 < sipa> #14646
11:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14646 | Add expansion cache functions to descriptors (unused for now) by sipa · Pull Request #14646 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:04 < wumpus> ok, will replace it
11:04 < phantomcircuit> sdaftuar found a bug in #14336 on os x (which i think is fixed now), think it needs some more testing there
11:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14336 | net: implement poll by pstratem · Pull Request #14336 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:04 < sipa> wumpus: thanks
11:04 < promag> hi
11:05 < jnewbery> hi
11:05 < wumpus> #action test PR 14336 on OSX
11:06 < wumpus> anything else?
11:06 < promag> wumpus: 13501
11:06 < wumpus> ok, time for next topic I guess
11:07 < wumpus> #13501
11:07 < instagibbs> not exactly a topic, but ##hwi in case people want to contribute to or lurk hww support work
11:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13501 | ~~Correctly~~ terminate HTTP server by promag · Pull Request #13501 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:07 < wumpus> #action join ##hwi to contribute to or lurk hardware wallet support work
11:07 < promag> ops not that
11:07 < promag> #14670
11:08 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14670 | http: Fix HTTP server shutdown by promag · Pull Request #14670 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:08 < meshcollider> Quick topic: EOL date for 0.15 https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/630
11:08 < wumpus> ok added
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11:08 < wumpus> #topic RPC or utility?
11:08 < sipa> provoostenator, MarcoFalke ^
11:08 < MarcoFalke> Just to repeat my latest comment there: Many users already have bitcoind running and don't care about performance, so I don't see why we'd want to stop providing utility functions for them.
11:08 < wumpus> most recently this came up in #14667
11:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14667 | Add deriveaddress RPC util method by Sjors · Pull Request #14667 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:09 < MarcoFalke> If we want to (in addition) provide a high-performance library or executable for those functions, that seems partly orthogonal. And maybe even out of scope for our project?
11:09 < achow101> why not both?
11:09 < promag> +1 achow101
11:09 < wumpus> and  #14476
11:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14476 | RPC method encodescript by mrwhythat · Pull Request #14476 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:09 < wumpus> achow101: it complicates bitcoind, more code to maintain, more API to support
11:09 < MarcoFalke> achow101: Sure, but has a bit of maintanence overhead
11:09 < instagibbs> are existing utils well-tested and used?
11:09 < provoostenator> I agree that performance really isn't an issue for at least some users. There's a reason people run NodeJS :-) 
11:09 < promag> bitcoin-qt already exposes RPC functionality without network overhead
11:09 < wumpus> more testing as well; API coverage is not free
11:10 < wumpus> I don't think performance is the only consideration
11:10 < sipa> wumpus: but what about code that we already have, which can be used to implement a useful function, but would require a lot of work to reimplement elsewhere?
11:10 < wumpus> sipa: it removes the flexibility to change that code later I guess
11:10 < luke-jr> preferably a separate repo entirely IMO
11:10 < sipa> say, signing PSBT with a descriptor
11:10 < MarcoFalke> Also, I guess there'd be design tradeoffs that make the library/executable usable by some and not by others, so maybe just too much to worry about for us?
11:11 < provoostenator> I think there's two seperate questions: 1) do we want a sep. utility 2) do we want to deprecate /  stop adding that stuff to the RPC  
11:11 < sipa> descriptors are a bitcoin core specific thing (at least for now), it would be trivial amount of code to implement given the existing infrastructure, but a lot of work to do elsewhere
11:11 < jnewbery> I think having duplicate code that does basically the same thing can be problematic. We've already had issues where bitcoin-tx has fallen out of sync with the equivalent RPC methods.
11:11 < provoostenator> I would say (1) would be nice in general, even in a seperate repo. I'm a bit reluctant about (2) for reasons Marco pointed to.
11:11 < wumpus> I mean obviously the ship to have bitcoind be a minimal consensus node implementation sailed, but I'm not sure we should be tacking on more that *could* be implemented outside it and is independent on any node functionality
11:11 < MarcoFalke> 2) NACK on stop adding utility to RPC
11:11 < wumpus> but I'm sure this is pointless for me to argue
11:11 < promag> also nack 2
11:11 < wumpus> so do whatever you want..
11:12 < phantomcircuit> MarcoFalke, most of the utility like things can trivially be RPC and some utility binary
11:12 < MarcoFalke> For 1) it is not even clear if it should be a util binary or a util library
11:12 < phantomcircuit> it's quite a nuisance to implement lots of things as another project, if only because of serialization stuff
11:12 < provoostenator> It would be good to have a _generic_ way to map utility functions to RPC functions, so that it's easy to keep well tested.
11:12 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: library +  utility
11:12 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: see libbase58 for example
11:12 < provoostenator> Right now every RPC is bespoke.
11:13 < esotericnonsense> butting in. this is more of a wallet vs node implementation thing than a RPC vs node thing, right.
11:13 < sipa> esotericnonsense: we're talking about RPCs that don't need a wallet or node/chainstate/blocks
11:13 < phantomcircuit> esotericnonsense, there's lots of non-wallet utility rpc's
11:13 < MarcoFalke> Neither wallet, nore node, since both have state. We are talking about stateless util functions
11:14 < esotericnonsense> sure, i suppose what i'm saying is that they're more wallet-like than node-like (if they deal with transactions, signing, etc)
11:14 < sipa> esotericnonsense: maybe
11:14 < wumpus> maybe, but AFAIK they're also enabled with the wallet disabled
11:14 < wumpus> always compiled in
11:14 < sipa> decodescript is pretty independent of anything
11:14 < wumpus> yes
11:14 < MarcoFalke> say, decoding a transactions, has nothing to do with wallet imo
11:15 < esotericnonsense> longer term if the wallet and node become more 'split out' then it seems like you're going to have a whole bunch of wallet rpc's build up over time that aren't relevant for the node, it seems unavoidable
11:15 < wumpus> I don't think the current ones should be removed, but i'm not sure about adding new ones
11:15 < MarcoFalke> We don't talk about keystore or "chainstore" rn
11:15 < sipa> esotericnonsense: i really think you're talking about something else
11:15 < achow101> I would rather that it not be separated into a separate repo. a big reason for me to have utility functions in core is that most of the framework for doing something is already there. in a separate repo, you have to reimplement stuff like serializations, etc. which is a major pain in the ass
11:15 < esotericnonsense> (agree that decodescript doesn't really belong in either)
11:15 < wumpus> achow101: if only those parts of core were available as a library heh...
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11:16 < sipa> i think that bitcoin core, for better or worse, implements certain featuresets - and it makes sense to implement those features completely, even if some are stateless
11:16 < sipa> that doesn't mean we should add arbitrary utilities because they may be useful for something
11:16 < wumpus> sometimes seems we're using RPC to compensate for the fact there's no library or API separation
11:16 < esotericnonsense> i think provoostenator's point about RPC being non-automated is interesting
11:16 < esotericnonsense> yes
11:17 < sipa> i don't really care for decodescript being in our codebase really - it's trivial to do anywhere
11:17 < luke-jr> bitcoin-cli add 1 2
11:17 < wumpus> things that have no state don't need *remote* procedure calls
11:17 < esotericnonsense> like effectively a lot of RPC's are just a wrapper over a raw function call, but with the "stable ABI" pushed outwards a bit
11:17 < sipa> but signrawtransaction makes perfect sense, as we offer raw transaction functionality
11:17 < provoostenator> luke-jr yes, so we can claim that Bitcoin Core is turning complete :-P
11:17 < esotericnonsense> luke-jr: bitcoin-cli 1 2 add surely. RPN-RPC.
11:18 < instagibbs> We already kind of have frozen random util addition, I think?
11:18 < sipa> instagibbs: yes, there has been sort of a policy like that for a while
11:18 < phantomcircuit> wumpus, we definitely use the rpc stuff to compensate for there not being a good library
11:18 < wumpus> instagibbs: that was the idea! but recently a few new PRs have been opened in that regard which prompted this discussion
11:18 < luke-jr> instagibbs: I thought so, but I think I've seen more going in since then -.-
11:19 < wumpus> and apparently it's still controversial
11:19 < luke-jr> maybe just saw PRs, perhaps not going in
11:19 < provoostenator> Lots of folks us a microservices like architecture, wher eyou have bunch of applications on seperate servers talking to eachother. RPC is useful for that, but less so once there are enough libraries that can replace it. 
11:19 < instagibbs> luke-jr, for example? the ones I've suggested have gone nowhere :P 
11:19 < instagibbs> ah ok
11:19 < instagibbs> fair enough
11:19 < provoostenator> So I agree with wumpus that it's paritally a chicken egg thing
11:19 < wumpus> provoostenator: that RPC is useful is not the discussion, does it need to be in bitcoin core!
11:19 < wumpus> we can't add everything that is useful
11:20 < wumpus> that's infinite scope creep
11:20 < provoostenator> Of course
11:20 < sipa> absolutely
11:20 < gwillen> for utility stuff that doesn't go in bitcoin core, is there some way to make it available to end-users who are not developers?
11:20 < gwillen> e.g. a library doesn't really help them
11:20 < luke-jr> gwillen: can you give an example?
11:20 < wumpus> gwillen: you could make your own RPC server, btcutilityd, or so
11:20 < gwillen> unless there's a utility wrapper around it that also ships with core
11:20 < phantomcircuit> gwillen, see bitcoin-tx
11:20 < wumpus> it could be completely separate from bitcoin core
11:20 < wumpus> as it shares not state
11:20 < esotericnonsense> gwillen: it's sort of what I've been doing in my projects, but it's not public
11:20 < sipa> gwillen: i think wumpus' argument is not having such things in our codebase entirely
11:20 < luke-jr> gwillen: libraries should have wrappers for shell scripts to use them, but having trouble seeing a case where a real end user would need such things
11:20 < sipa> not just not exposing it over RPC
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11:21 < provoostenator> Right, so a seperate utility repo could also include an RPC wrapper.
11:21 < esotericnonsense> or rather, it's "public" as in it's OSS/free software, but it's not marketed or known or anything (I expect there's a lot of stuff out there like this)
11:21 < luke-jr> if people really need RPC, let someone do a RPC-to-exec server :/
11:21 < wumpus> I'm just trying to prevent the codebase complicating even more, I mean, I think we should focus on consensus issues in bitcoin core, it's hard enough
11:22 < luke-jr> +1
11:22 < phantomcircuit> wumpus, agreed
11:22 < phantomcircuit> so anyways
11:22 < phantomcircuit> sipa, suggest changing the GetRandBytes functions to GetWeakRandBytes to make it more obvious, maybe
11:22 < gwillen> I don't think RPC is necessary for quick utilities with no state, but I do think commandline is necessary
11:22 < gwillen> versus just a library
11:22 < sipa> wumpus: so, just to gauge your opinion here, imagine we didn't have any raw transaction or PSBT functionality included, and it is being added now; would you argue for only having signrawtransactionwithwallet, but say signrawtransactionwithkey needs to be implemented elsewhere, even though it shares 95% of the code?
11:22 < luke-jr> gwillen: https://github.com/bitcoin/libbase58/blob/master/clitool.c
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11:23 < provoostenator> I thikn that's reasonable actually. Especially considering that the _wallet_ could also be split out at some distant future.
11:23 < luke-jr> sipa: IMO, ideally we'd abstract that code into a library itself, and use it in Core
11:23 < wumpus> sipa: sure, it's always possible to argue some grey area where it seems harmless to add because it's only a small difference, maybe that would be ok, just not complicated things that we don't use otherwise
11:23 < luke-jr> or rather, use it in "wallet split out of Core"
11:23 < sipa> luke-jr: agree, but that's a separate discussion
11:24 < provoostenator> The number of RPC methods that would be left if we strip out utilities and the wallet would be nice and small.
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11:24 < sipa> wumpus: my point here is that the "feature creep" is in deciding whether to have raw transaction support or not; the fact that part of the necessary RPC calls happen to be stateless isn't
11:24 < wumpus> I'm not arguing to remove the current ones or so, just prevent an onslaught of new ones
11:24 < sipa> (this is also orthogonal to whether it should be implemented as RPC or separate utility; i'm just discussing having the functionality somewhere in our codebase)
11:25 < gwillen> note also, as someone doing development on the GUI right now, that the GUI might reasonably need utilities that don't touch the wallet
11:25 < provoostenator> (by strip out I just mean not adding more than we already have, only deprecating if they become a problem)
11:25 < gwillen> unless the goal for the GUI also is to be functionally minimal, which I don't think i tis
11:25 < wumpus> if only the GUI needs it, it could be a library at the GUI side
11:26 < luke-jr> gwillen: I think the goal is to split the GUI out too, but in the meantime, I see your point
11:26 < wumpus> so maybe it's better to discuss per PR
11:27 < sipa> wumpus: say for example, if somewhere were to propose a set of RPCs just to do script debugging, fully stateless, I would nack that - there is no reason for that to be in core
11:27 < wumpus> say, deriveaddress seems small and is only using what is already in the code base: #14667
11:27 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14667 | Add deriveaddress RPC util method by Sjors · Pull Request #14667 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:28 < sipa> right; i think deriveaddress is a very natural part of "supporting output descriptors"
11:28 < luke-jr> sipa: script debugging is a libbitcoinconsensus thing
11:28 < sipa> luke-jr: i very strongly disagree :)
11:29 < luke-jr> sipa: it's inherently part of consensus code
11:29 < sipa> (but that's also another discussion, i think; i was just giving an example)
11:29 < luke-jr> true
11:29 < wumpus> but I guess 'encodescript' (#14476) is more controversial
11:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14476 | RPC method encodescript by mrwhythat · Pull Request #14476 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:29 < wumpus> luke-jr: no, debugging does not belong in consensus
11:29 < sipa> yeah i don't think we should have had decodescript
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11:31 < luke-jr> wumpus: I guess I just mean the hooks, which can't really be anywhere else
11:31 < wumpus> it's also not difficult to implement on the application side, unlike the cryptography of deriving addresses
11:31 < sipa> so that was on the topic of "whether something belongs in the codebase or not"; another question is, for the things that do, separate utility/library, or RPC, or both?
11:32 < luke-jr> sipa: if it's being pulled in because it's tied to something that should be, then presumably that other thing is RPC already
11:32 < sipa> luke-jr: that's fair
11:32 < luke-jr> if it could be a separate utility/library, it wouldn't need to be in the codebase I guess
11:33 < luke-jr> (but maybe it makes sense to do all 3?)
11:33 < MarcoFalke> I think there is not too much cost in doing both (but currently we don't have a utility/library)
11:33 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: we do have bitcoin-tx
11:33 < wumpus> sipa: ideally I'd prefer having a library, this more general and allows for implementing a RPC service that does the same, the other way is more limiting
11:33 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr:  that is not useful for general utility functions
11:33 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: even if we rename it?
11:34 < sipa> luke-jr: i think tx is too specific
11:34 < sipa> its arguments are all transformations on transactions
11:34 < MarcoFalke> good luck renaming it, heh
11:34 < luke-jr> I guess there's no real need to have just one tool
11:34 < wumpus> the advantage of an executable is that it's separate
11:34 < luke-jr> even for libraries, it makes sense to have different ones for substantially different tasks
11:34 < wumpus> it's annoying to interface with in most languages, though :)
11:34 < sipa> perhaps we should change topics, i need to go in 10-15 minutes
11:35 < wumpus> also need to spawn a new process for every call
11:35 < wumpus> which perf-wise is even worse than RPC
11:35 < wumpus> #topic [RFC] for future of RNG #14623
11:35 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14623 | [RFC] Built-in RNG design · Issue #14623 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:35 < phantomcircuit> suggest changing the GetRandBytes functions to GetWeakRandBytes to make it more obvious, maybe
11:35 < sipa> phantomcircuit: good idea
11:36 < sipa> just a quicj topic, i'd like to ask for opinions if we want to go in that direction
11:36 < phantomcircuit> otherwise seems good to me
11:36 < sipa> if so, i'll work on it
11:36 < phantomcircuit> possibly want to measure how fast various sources of entropy are?
11:36 < luke-jr> my only concern is if RNG gets too slow for non-HD wallets to work reasonably, but I doubt that's an issue
11:36 < sipa> phantomcircuit: yeah
11:37 < wumpus> #action read issue 14623: Built-in RNG design
11:37 < phantomcircuit> luke-jr, the openssl rng is already lol slow
11:37 < luke-jr> (since we don't make them, so I guess new keys are only generated one at a time)
11:37 < wumpus> does slowness matter for anywhere we need strong crypto?
11:37 < meshcollider> This isn't actually going to slow things down is it, long term might even speed it up?
11:37 < wumpus> I mean, now that key generation is HD
11:37 < luke-jr> wumpus: my point is that key generation is not necessarily HD
11:37 < wumpus> generating the initial seed isn't perf critical and certainly not high bandwidth
11:37 < wumpus> is there anything besides that?
11:38 < sipa> phantomcircuit: actually, GetWeakRandBytes is perhaps a bit confusing too; the data returned would be cryptographic strength, seeded by all available randomness sources - just not reseeded regularly
11:38 < luke-jr> GetRandomStrengthRandBytes
11:38 < wumpus> I guess the master key for the wallet; but that's als oa one-time thing
11:38 < meshcollider> GetWeaklySeededRandBytes
11:38 < phantomcircuit> luke-jr, by far the slowest thing about keygeneration is the ridiculous number of fsync calls from bdb
11:38 < sipa> luke-jr: what phantomcircuit says ^
11:39 < sipa> generating thousands of keys per second should be trivial
11:39 < phantomcircuit> sipa, Strong/Mediocre/Weak
11:39 < phantomcircuit> heh
11:40 < sipa> phantomcircuit: i think two levels is sufficient :)
11:40 < sipa> so ok, weak and strong :)
11:40 < phantomcircuit> sipa, the distinction is really about things like vm state copies where we hope that /dev/random would know about that right?
11:40 < luke-jr> was about to ask what the use case is for the middle level :P
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11:40 < meshcollider> If you take GitHub emoji reactions as comments it looks like there's a pretty good approval consensus anyway
11:41 < sipa> phantomcircuit: so even weakrand in my suggestion would invoke high-accuracy timestamp (rdtsc etc), so it'd be highly unlikely that you get the same random numbers in two instances of a VM copy
11:41 < wumpus> what if: if you need high speed key generation, switch to HD wallet
11:41 < wumpus> if not, the current fallback is fine
11:41 < wumpus> it will be slower but work
11:41 < kanzure> timezones are difficult.
11:42 < sipa> RNG is really not the bottleneck for key generation
11:42 < luke-jr> wumpus: it sounds like it's a non-issue either way?
11:42 < wumpus> yes
11:42 < sipa> i think it's a non issue
11:43 < wumpus> #topic EOL date for 0.15 (meshcollider)
11:43 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/630
11:43 < meshcollider> Yeah just wanted to check this date was sane to put on the website
11:43 < luke-jr> most nodes are still using 0.15 :x
11:43 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: EOL would be august next year. Seems reasonable
11:43 < wumpus> what is the proposed date?
11:43 < luke-jr> yeah, hopefully it will change by then
11:44 < luke-jr> 2019-08-01
11:44 < phantomcircuit> sipa, indeed
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11:44 < achow101> seems reasonable
11:44 < wumpus> that seems.. far enough away
11:44 < meshcollider> luke-jr: it's maintenance end now anyway
11:45 < meshcollider> Ok that's all then, unless anyone disagrees :)
11:45 < luke-jr> (correction: 0.16 is actually now the most-used branch, barely)
11:46 < wumpus> yep, please do any ACKing in the PR
11:46 < wumpus> any other topics?
11:47 < kanzure> RPC is used by many companies as the only interface to bitcoin at all; not sure i understand the scope of discussion about moving RPC into another utility or project but yeah be careful i guess.
11:48 < meshcollider> kanzure: only a few utility RPCs, not the whole thing ;)
11:48 < wumpus> kanzure: the topic is not of moving any current RPCs away
11:48 < gwillen> one possible alternative I can think of would be to give bitcoin-cli a way to talk to multiple backends
11:48 < gwillen> then you can easily put utilities in a separate codebase
11:48 < luke-jr> gwillen: it already can?
11:48 < gwillen> without any user issues
11:49 < gwillen> luke-jr: I mean something like dispatching based on which command it's given
11:49 < esotericnonsense> hm. but isn't the issue the ongoing maintenance of ensuring RPC works (integrating it into the test suite etc)
11:49 < gwillen> for a seamless experience
11:49 < luke-jr> gwillen: ew :<
11:49 < wumpus> kanzure: as far as I'm concerned the discussion is about the addition of new pure, utility-only RPCs, what is the crit to add them, or never do it? but removing the current ones is out of the question I think
11:49 < esotericnonsense> i'm struggling to understand how seperating it makes it "simpler" if you keep the maintenance burden anyway
11:49 < kanzure> something out of scope for bitcoind but exchanges and merchants could really benefit from tracking slightly more state on bitcoind end (like "updates since last sync"- specific to an external application which otherwise has to write their own since-last-sync tracking code etc)
11:50 < wumpus> no way...
11:50 < kanzure> wumpus: got it, understood. i didn't understand context. my apologies.
11:50 < kanzure> wumpus: yeah i said it's out of scope :-)
11:50 < wumpus> really, tracking consensus is hard enough, a REALLY hard problem
11:51 < wumpus> I think there's too little respect for just how hard that is, even as a single concern, we can't pull in anything that is marginally useful to anyone else also
11:52 < jarthur> I have to say that I don't have much use for a cryptocurrency node that isn't either A) a wallet, or B) providing other services with currency network functionality. If separating the concerns out still gives me those things as I need them, no complaints.
11:52 < esotericnonsense> it sounds to me like provoostenator's idea of making RPC more 'automated' somehow would be useful; in the sense that you have a ton of functions that could just be exposed over rpc by like, function name or something, if they're stateless, without doing anything
11:52 < esotericnonsense> and then it's "someone else's job" to maintain the bitcoin library to RPC shim which ensures RPC backward compatibility
11:53 < wumpus> again, you're speaking of 'backward compatibility'
11:53 < wumpus> there's no talk of dropping anything here
11:53 < wumpus> the discussion was about adding...
11:53 < esotericnonsense> wumpus: right, what I mean is that, when you add stuff, it's not a problem a priori, it becomes a problem because over time you're maintaining it
11:53 < phantomcircuit> gwillen, please no
11:54 < esotericnonsense> there is also the overhead of dealing with a PR, merging, rebasing, basically actually doing the work
11:54 < wumpus> going to close the meeting we're out of topics
11:54 < kanzure> esotericnonsense: i would phrase that as automatically generated bindings
11:55 < wumpus> #endmeeting
11:55 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov  8 19:55:01 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
11:55 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-11-08-19.00.html
11:55 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-11-08-19.00.txt
11:55 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-11-08-19.00.log.html
11:55 < esotericnonsense> which seems to be solved if the person in control of maintaining that 'library-RPC' interface is an external party
11:55 < esotericnonsense> anyway, yeah, i'm kind of external in this, just musing... sorry
11:55 < wumpus> yes, don't put it on my plate and I'm happy
11:55 < meshcollider> Time to add an RPC maintainer too ;)
11:56 < wumpus> meshcollider: are you interested?
11:57 < luke-jr> lol
11:57 < instagibbs> RPC Tsar
11:58 < meshcollider> That was partly a joke but does the RPC really need its own maintainer?
11:58 < wumpus> nothing 'needs', but could if someone was interested in taking that up
11:59 < wumpus> we can really use any help at this point
12:02 < meshcollider> Well I'm always happy to help, I thought the wallet maintainer was more needed than other random parts of the code though
12:04 < wumpus> well if you want to be wallet maintainer that's great too ;)
12:04 < meshcollider> Haha oh no ;)
12:05 < wumpus> nah seriously just pick what part you're interested in
12:05 < meshcollider> Speaking of which though, in seriousness, that discussion has been going on for months now with no result. What would it take to actually learn to fill that role?
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12:07 < luke-jr> meshcollider: I would guess making an explicit effort to review <topic> PRs and move them forward
12:08 < wumpus> you can be maintainer of any part you're interested in by actively reviewing PRs in that area and getting involved there
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12:08 < wumpus> it doesn't have to be the wallet, that's just the running joke because it turns out to be really hard to find a maintainer for that :)
12:09 < meshcollider> Because the wallet is still quite a mixture of things, e.g. coin selection is quite different to the key stuff
12:09 < meshcollider> To be comfortable with it all at a deep enough level seems hard lol 
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12:09 < sipa> sorry, had to run
12:14 < wumpus> I'm not sure what a 'deep enough level' is here though
12:15 < meshcollider> Neither am I ;)
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12:18 < meshcollider> I guess it feels like to be a good maintainer of an aspect, you should be an expert in that aspect's code
12:18 < luke-jr> probably comes naturally with time reviewing everything going into it
12:19 < wumpus> well you need to be an expert compared to new people contributing to it at least, you don't need to know everything, you don't have to take decisions without other people's input
12:19 < instagibbs> wumpus doesn't have to know literally everything to be overall maintainer; you need to digest discussions, prod, etc
12:20 < wumpus> exactly.
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12:21 < meshcollider> Both very good points lol
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12:26 < meshcollider> Hmm well I guess it is something I can work towards in the meantime :)
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12:38 < instagibbs> I bet if you just fake it you'll make it eventually
12:39 < meshcollider> Hahaha your support is much appreciated greg
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14:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #14693: test_node: get_mem_rss fixups (master...Mf1811-qaTestNodeFixups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14693
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15:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] DrahtBot closed pull request #10896: Optimize compact reconstruction somewhat (master...2017-07-faster-compact-reconstruction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10896
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15:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] DrahtBot closed pull request #9298: [Wallet] use CHDPubKey, don't store child priv keys in db, derive on the fly (master...2016/12/hd_no_priv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9298
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15:25 < meshcollider> Is this a new drahtbot feature ^
15:28 < MarcoFalke> Old feature, but I only run it manually every couple of weeks
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15:59 < esotericnonsense> hm. sorry if this isn't really a 'core-dev' question but i'm having shower thoughts of a kind...
16:00 < esotericnonsense> tell me to STFU and go elsewhere as necessary
16:00 < esotericnonsense> has anyone (other than the ABCore project) made a mobile wallet based on bitcoin core, e.g. remote?
16:01 < esotericnonsense> it's kind of obvious, but I'm realising that if I expose getnewaddress, sendtoaddress, and maybe a QR code in my interface, you have an android wallet that's backed by bitcoin core
16:02 < esotericnonsense> it seems trivial enough that someone must have already done it and realised that no-one (other than themselves personally) finds this useful?
16:13 < promag> http://blog.qt.io/blog/2018/11/08/qt-macos-10-14-mojave/ <- talks about dark mode
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16:26 < luke-jr> esotericnonsense: you shouldn't expose RPC over the internet
16:27 < esotericnonsense> luke-jr: right, don't expose RPC over the internet, expose the subset that you need through a proxy that has sanity checking
16:27 < esotericnonsense> with proper authentication (e.g. session token over TLS)
16:27 < luke-jr> esotericnonsense: it's something I've thought about for a long time
16:27 < esotericnonsense> i don't think it's ever going to be viable for like, thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, because the attack surface is too high
16:28 < luke-jr> eg https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_protocol
16:28 < esotericnonsense> or rather, I think it'd be possible to make secure, but I'm just too paranoid about every layer
16:29 < esotericnonsense> i'm kind of at the 90/10 stage where I have all the infrastructure in place, but packaging it sanely to make it something that anyone else can use is quite difficult
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16:33 < gwillen> esotericnonsense: as a practical matter I think very few people would ever use an android app that requires setting up one's own backend
16:33 < esotericnonsense> luke-jr: thanks for that link, i may have to edit it as I go if I decide to do this
16:33 < gwillen> very few people can be bothered, even technical people, and I say this as someone who runs my own mailserver
16:33 < esotericnonsense> gwillen: it'd be a webapp not android specifically, but yes, I see that being very unlikely too
16:34 < esotericnonsense> the frustrating thing is that actually if namecoin or similar took off, I think it could be packaged into a simple 'run this file and leave your computer on, then go to www.whatever.com on your phone'
16:35 < gwillen> you don't really need namecoin for service discovery, e.g. you could use IPFS
16:35 < esotericnonsense> so I'm thinking it can be made one-click on the desktop side, but end users don't have their own domain
16:35 < gwillen> "scan this QR code using your phone"
16:36 < gwillen> sorry, this is getting off-topic for this channel I fear
16:36 < esotericnonsense> yes, indeed, heh, sorry :)
16:36 < sipa> esotericnonsense: if namecoin took off, it'd be useless as a name registration mechanism :)
16:36 < esotericnonsense> anyway, i'll tinker with it myself and see where I get
16:38 < luke-jr> esotericnonsense: note that link is from 2011; it probably needs serious rethinking
16:39 < esotericnonsense> luke-jr: I think that ultimately someone would have to make a demo of it in order to actually understand what the issues are; some of the stuff in there on a quick skim seems like premature optimization
16:40 < esotericnonsense> > Cooperative mining (see below) :D
16:40  * esotericnonsense feels young again
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19:53 < meshcollider> wumpus: I think #14689 is RTM already
19:53 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14689 | Require a public key to be retrieved when signing a P2PKH input by achow101 · Pull Request #14689 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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22:38 < meshcollider> Marco: isn't Drahtbot supposed to update its own comment rather than post multiple times
22:38 < meshcollider> MarcoFalke: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14075#issuecomment-437259799
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22:38 < gwillen> meshcollider: I'm not sure what it's currently supposed to do, but my understanding was that it turned out that updating a comment still bumps the date on the issue
22:39 < gwillen> so the change didn't really help in the way it was hoped it would
22:39 < meshcollider> but still, it makes it difficult to read a PR thread if there are multiple Drahtbot posts with conflicts instead of just one up-to-date one
22:39 < meshcollider> i think its a bug
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 09 00:00:16 2018