--- Log opened Sat Apr 13 00:00:43 2019
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00:09 < gwillen> heh!
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04:14 < gwillen> achow101: can you provide insight into why the Updater and Signer roles in BIP 174 got combined into the single 'walletprocesspsbt' call in Core?
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04:15 < gwillen> it's becoming slightly annoying for some blockstream (Elements) stuff I'm working on, and I am wondering why it wasn't "walletfillpsbt" and "walletsignpsbt" separately
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07:17 < harding> If I use sendtoaddress to attempt to pay a bech32 address with a witness version >0, the RPC succeeds (surprising me).  However, the tx isn't added to the mempool and debug.log says "[default wallet] CommitTransaction(): Transaction cannot be broadcast immediately, scriptpubkey (code 64)".  If I try sending the same tx via sendrawtransaction, that fails with the same error code (which I expected).  Is it intentional that 
07:17 < harding> sendtoaddress returns success despite other commands failing and the transaction not making it to the local node's mempool?  Tested on latest master.
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08:08 < sdaftuar> harding: that sounds right to me.  mempool policy rejecting such transactions is intentional; we don't want to start accepting version1 transactions until a future softfork is designed.
08:09 < sdaftuar> because the first step to deploying a new softfork is to ensure that policy rules will protect (eg) miners running old software 
08:10 < sdaftuar> wallet support also makes sense, so that we're not gated on the whole ecosystem upgrading to support sending to new address formats every time new features are deployed in new segwit versions
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08:11 < luke-jr> Miners should never be running old software.
08:12 < sdaftuar> luke-jr: fine, users running old software
08:12 < sdaftuar> if coordination of software changes were free, this would be much easier
08:14 < luke-jr> mempool policies don't strictly need adjustment for non-miners
08:14 < luke-jr> I mean, it's nice to have, but I don't think it's essential
08:17 < sdaftuar> oh wait, my reasoning is for not being able to spend a v1 output, not for not being able to send to a v1 output
08:20 < sdaftuar> the reason not to allow sending to a v1 output is the same i guess as not being able to send to any other anyone can spend output
08:20 < sdaftuar> ?
08:20 < sdaftuar> which i guess is just footgun protection
08:21 < sipa> yeah
08:22 < sipa> not being able to spend a v1 output is a script execution rule, designed for upgrada safety
08:22 < sipa> i guess there is a separate standardness rule about sending to v1
08:22 < harding> Yeah, that's what I assumed.  And testmempoolaccept and sendrawtransaction do prevent me from sending to a witness v1 address; it's just sendtoaddress (and, I'm guessing, sendmany) that succeed as calls unexpectedly.  They add the tx to the wallet, but it doesn't get added to the mempool.
08:24 < sipa> that's a surprising inconsistency
08:25 < sdaftuar> sipa: i'm surprised you are saying it's surprising -- i thought you wanted it to work that way for the reason i gave above?
08:25 < sdaftuar> perhaps i misunderstood the deployment goals
08:31 < sipa> sdaftuar: well the not-sending-to-v1-mempool rule should be consistent with the wallet, as they have similar goals
08:32 < sipa> i think?
08:33 < harding> Third-party software I've investigated (e.g. Electrum) that implement bech32 sending support currently require that the witness version be 0 so that they don't create policy-invalid transactions.
08:33 < sdaftuar> sipa: if you put aside the issue that we have no user-friendly way to hand a transaction to someone else except via the p2p network, then i think making the wallet refuse to send creates deployment issues in the future
08:34 < sdaftuar> so that when v1 comes out down the road, users will have to p2sh-wrap it in order to use
08:34 < sdaftuar> which is sort of terrible?
08:38 < sdaftuar> if other software projects are already disabling sending to v1 though, then i guess we're in trouble on that front regardless of what we do
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08:41 < sipa> sdaftuar: i'm trying to balance my gut feeling "permitting sendkng to v1 feels like such a footgun!" with the fact that we can't do this for p2sh embedded regardless
08:41 < sipa> and there are plenty of other ways to construct an anyonecanspend address
08:41 < harding> I take that back; I just re-checked the Electrum code.  It just contains a redundant check that the witness version is 0-16; I remembered that wrongly because it's a redundancy over the reference library code.  Sorry.
08:42 < sipa> really the protection ought to be in code that creates addresses rather than the code sending to it
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08:58 < achow101> gwillen: to reduce the need to use an excessive number of RPC calls just do to make a transaction. it needed to be less than or equal to the number of step the *rawtransaction RPCs did otherwise people probably wouldn't use them
08:59 < achow101> also the logic for updating and signing in core are almost exactly the same.
08:59 < achow101> you can have walletprocesspsbt not sign, there's a parameter to set sign to false.
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09:16 < luke-jr> wait, people can't even *send* to unknown witness versions? that seems like a bug and defeats the whole point of Bech32's extensibility in that regard, no?
09:18 < luke-jr> sure, it's anyonecanspend for now, but so is a version 0 witness transaction that's simply an OP_TRUE!
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09:29 < sipa> achow101, gwillen: in fact making it sign but not update would be kind of hard
09:31 < harding> luke-jr: yes, that's the case.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/policy/policy.cpp#L62    I don't see any comments about this on the original implementation, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11167/files#diff-d22bc3e058f8982972e2eb381a1df668R79
09:32 < achow101> luke-jr: it's nonstandard though. we don't allow sending to nonstandard because nonstandard isn't relayed
09:33 < sipa> achow101: right, but arguably sending to it should be allowed, and allowing it should help upgrading when v1 is actually introduced
09:33 < sipa> spending definitely needs to be nonstandard, but that's an independent check
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09:51 < luke-jr> yeah, I can't think of any reason not to allow it to be policy-accepted and even mined
09:52 < luke-jr> otoh, accepting it into the wallet and policy-rejecting from mempool doesn't seem too terrible either
09:52 < luke-jr> it would just sit unconfirmed until some future point where a softfork enables it
09:52 < luke-jr> and IIRC the GUI displays a warning about it when you send
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10:00 < harding> luke-jr: just tested, there's no warning in the GUI.
10:02 < luke-jr> hmm, there used to be a generic one for mempool rejecting it
10:02 < harding> luke-jr: just a debug.log entry.  2019-04-13T16:59:27Z [default wallet] CommitTransaction(): Transaction cannot be broadcast immediately, scriptpubkey (code 64)
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10:13 < instagibbs> I remember asking for v1+ test in functional suite, guess the only checks that were a createraw/decoderaw round-trip
10:14 < luke-jr> this level of hand-holding really belongs in GUI only and not in RPC
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10:45 < sipa> luke-jr: the first question is whether it shohld be relay policy
10:46 < harding> I think that, if you want wallets and services to unconditionally accept bech32 addresses even if they use future witness versions, they need to be accepted into the mempool and mined by default.  Otherwise some griefer is going to initiate 0.0001 withdrawals from various services, get their transactions stuck, and then they're going to either refuse to send to bech32 addresses altogether or just >0 witness versions.
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10:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] crackercracked opened pull request #15812: not generate coverage report on test failures (master...fix-issue-15648-test-coverage-report) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15812
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11:46 < jnewbery> harding: to answer your original question (why does sendtoaddress return success, even if the tx is not added to the mempool?), that was changed here: #9302
11:46 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/9302 | Return txid even if ATMP fails for new transaction by sipa · Pull Request #9302 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:47 < jnewbery> wallet RPCs that use CommitTransaction() will return true even if AcceptToMemoryPool() fails
11:47 < jnewbery> (that also includes GUI sends)
11:48 < sipa> i guess we need to distinguish between permanent and temporary failure
11:48 < jnewbery> The PR doesn't contain a description/motivation, but I believe the reason is that the transaction exists in the wallet, so the RPC should return the txid so the user can find it
11:50 < jnewbery> sipa: yes. It'd be nice if all RPCs returned an object so fields could be added later. In this case a "accepted_to_mempool" boolean would be helpful, for example
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12:02 < harding> jnewbery: thanks.  From the discussion, it looks like the purpose was to allow the wallet to create chains of transactions beyond the default limits and then trickle those into the mempool later as their ancestors got confirmed.  The non-standard witness version error, OTOH, isn't something that's going to resolve itself, so I think the wallet should probably reject what the mempool rejects.  (Distinguishing between temp_fail and 
12:02 < harding> perm_fail, if not more specific classes, seems like a good idea to me.)
12:04 < luke-jr> temp_fail might not be a good fit for future witness versions though
12:04 < luke-jr> since it's potentially a long term
12:04 < luke-jr> condition
12:04 < instagibbs> policy updates usually aren't activated while running the same software, right?
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12:06 < luke-jr> I guess it's a tristate too: "used to be okay, no longer is", "currently okay", "currently not okay, but will be in the future"
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12:07 < instagibbs> problem is here previously nothing non-sendable had an address to decode
12:09 < harding> luke-jr: the main thing being distinguished in this discussion is unconfirmed tx chains longer than 25 (or larger than 100,000 vbytes), which is a temporary issue, versus future segwit versions which is a long-term issue (months, years, maybe never).  You're right that the second category isn't a perm_fail, but a trying_again_later_wont_help_fail.
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12:09 < harding> probably_wont_help*
12:09 < instagibbs> it can also happen with a plain old CreateTransaction making a tx that isn't relay-valid
12:09 < sipa> trying_again_with_the_same_software_wont_helo
12:09 < instagibbs> ie bug
12:10 < sipa> also invalid signature e.g. should fail that way
12:11 < instagibbs> s/IsValidDestination/IsValidRelayDestination/ ? :)
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12:15 < sipa> how do i make a proposed meeti g topic?
12:16 < instagibbs> moneyball, ^ :D 
12:16 < harding> sipa: say: moneyball: #proposedmeetingtopic <topic>
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12:18 < sipa> moneyball: #proposedmeetingtopic Should send-to-non-v0-witness be standard (spending such outputs is nonstandard independently)
12:20 < gmaxwell> thats what I was thinking
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12:23 < jnewbery> moneyball: #proposedmeetingtopic Bitcoin Core design documentation
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12:48 < moneyball> updated! https://gist.github.com/moneyball/071d608fdae217c2a6d7c35955881d8a
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18:06 < meshcollider> #15622 rtm?
18:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15622 | Remove globals: Avoid using the global namespace if possible by practicalswift · Pull Request #15622 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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18:17 < meshcollider> sipa: re #15371, is that even allowed to just capitalize the HRP? won't that invalidate the checksum? I'm not sure if I am remembering rightly
18:17 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15371 | gui: Uppercase bech32 addresses in qr codes by benthecarman · Pull Request #15371 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
18:20 < sipa> meshcollider: mixed case is not allowed
18:20 < sipa> but uppercasing everything is allowed, and recommended inside qr codes
18:21 < sipa> the checksum is case insensitive
18:22 < meshcollider> sipa: oh, is the hrp always converted to lowercase before processing
18:22 < meshcollider> I thought the hrp was processed using the ascii values which would be different for upper and lower case
18:23 < sipa> the whole thing is converted to lowercase before computing the checksum
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18:23 < meshcollider> ah ok, that makes sense then
18:23 < meshcollider> does it say that in the BIP?
18:24 < sipa> yes
18:24 < sipa> The lowercase form is used when determining a character's value for checksum purposes. 
18:24 < meshcollider> ah, i thought that was just referring to the data part
18:24 < meshcollider> ok
18:24 < sipa> For presentation, lowercase is usually preferable, but inside QR codes uppercase SHOULD be used.
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21:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/66ce95a43400...adc55dbac5b5
21:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9819ad6 John Newbery: [rpc] simplify generate RPC
21:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1b46a48 John Newbery: [cleanup] Remove unused CReserveKey
21:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master adc55db MeshCollider: Merge #15748: [rpc] remove dead mining code
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21:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider merged pull request #15748: [rpc] remove dead mining code (master...2019_04_simplify_generate) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15748
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