--- Log opened Thu Oct 31 00:00:39 2019
--- Day changed Thu Oct 31 2019
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01:24 < jeremyrubin> i think i was thrown off by luke saying spammy -- I thought we should see 0!
01:27 < wumpus> moneyball: so they have the requirement based on the age of the software apparently
01:29 < wumpus> luke-jr: afaik, force-pushes are announced here, at least the old bot did
01:29 < wumpus> there just aren't any, usually
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01:51 < provoostenator> I'm able to install from the signed DMG just fine (overriding a previous installation)
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02:12 < provoostenator> I suppose it's alright if Apple provides additional free malware review :-) (as long as they keep the right-click to install alternative)
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02:56 < JeremyCrookshank> Any recommenced reading for Bitcoin Development?
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03:52 < luke-jr> wumpus: force-pushes to PRs?
03:53 < luke-jr> ie, rebases
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03:57 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #17327: test: add rpc_fundrawtransaction logging (master...rpc_fundrawtransaction-test-logging) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17327
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04:08 < jonatack> JeremyCrookshank: many resources here https://github.com/jonatack/bitcoin-development/blob/master/how-to-review-bitcoin-core-prs.md
04:09 < provoostenator> Looks like #16697  is back. I'm seeing it again on master too....
04:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16697 | Unknown version bit fork activated warning . Issue #16697 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
04:12 < wumpus> luke-jr: the bot only monitors the branches on the main repository, not every user's branches
04:12 < wumpus> and it shouldn't imo
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04:14 < wumpus> provoostenator: I thought we deleted that code
04:14 < wumpus> apparently not
04:20 < provoostenator> Fun fact: downloading from internet is different than copying via SSH from a Gitian machine... for macOS
04:24 < luke-jr> wumpus: it announces PR opens/closes
04:26 < wumpus> JeremyCrookshank: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference
04:26 < luke-jr> provoostenator: what?
04:27 < wumpus> luke-jr: right, I suppose it *could* track all user's branches too, but I think that would be a bad idea, I'm not interested in rebases on 294 open PRs
04:27 < luke-jr> wumpus: it seems more interesting than DrahtBot's close/reopen Travis rebuilds ;)
04:27 < luke-jr> wumpus: not all user branches are PRs tho
04:28 < luke-jr> anyway, I just meant in terms of timely review of rebased PRs before they need rebase yet again a day later <.<
04:28 < wumpus> it would be possible to filter out drahtbot actions
04:38 < wumpus> provoostenator: windows does a similar thing, some kind of taint tracking with files, anything downloaded by the browser is suspect
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04:49 < luke-jr> wget does it too, just doesn't warn you
04:50 < luke-jr> getfattr -d on your downloads
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05:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/08e29473126d...feb1a8c03aff
05:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3b3b931 Carl Dong: nsis: Write to correct filename in first place
05:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master feb1a8c Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #17308: nsis: Write to correct filename in first place
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05:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #17308: nsis: Write to correct filename in first place (master...2019-10-simplify-nsis-exe-rename) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17308
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05:32 < JeremyCrookshank> jonatack & wumpus thank you
05:33 < JeremyCrookshank> already done two basic GUI PRs just wanting to expand knowlege
05:46 < JeremyCrookshank> will be reviewing #16432 soon
05:46 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16432 | qt: Add privacy to the Overview page by hebasto . Pull Request #16432 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
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05:53 < instagibbs> luke-jr, I force push a ton to my PRs, it would be a bit much
05:55 < luke-jr> hmm
05:56 < luke-jr> maybe we should just try manually announcing when a rebase is ready
05:59 < instagibbs> rebase is ready?
05:59 < instagibbs> meaning, "it's ok to re-review now"?
06:06 < luke-jr> right
06:15 < instagibbs> I usually manually announce in the thread, yeah
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06:42 < provoostenator> I force push so much it bogs down Travis :-)
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07:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/feb1a8c03aff...1c5e0ccabae1
07:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9cae3d5 practicalswift: tests: Add fuzzer initialization (hold ECCVerifyHandle)
07:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1c5e0cc MarcoFalke: Merge #17274: tests: Fix fuzzers eval_script and script_flags by re-adding...
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07:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17274: tests: Fix fuzzers eval_script and script_flags by re-adding ECCVerifyHandle dependency (master...fuzzer-initialization-follow-up) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17274
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07:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] darosior opened pull request #17328: GuessVerificationProgress: cap the ratio to 1 (master...fixup_getblockchaininfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17328
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08:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #17329: linter: Strip trailing / in path for git-subtree-check (master...2019-10-subtree-path) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17329
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09:53 < JeremyCrookshank> "Take pains to explain exactly what you're doing and the reasoning behind"
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09:53 < JeremyCrookshank> Pain? ;)
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10:56 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sdaftuar opened pull request #17330: [qa] Add shrinkdebugfile=0 to regtest bitcoin.conf (master...2019-10-shrinkdebugfile0) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17330
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11:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1c5e0ccabae1...100fa0a62a29
11:44 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 52cf68f Russell Yanofsky: Refactor: Add GetLegacyScriptPubKeyMan helper
11:44 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 628d11b Russell Yanofsky: Add back mistakenly removed AssertLockHeld
11:44 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2632b1f Russell Yanofsky: doc: Clarify WalletStorage / Wallet relation
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11:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17300: LegacyScriptPubKeyMan code cleanups (master...pr/keyman-cleanup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17300
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11:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/100fa0a62a29...811c381ab650
11:52 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 60582d6 John Newbery: [linter] Strip trailing / in path for git-subtree-check
11:52 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 811c381 fanquake: Merge #17329: linter: Strip trailing / in path for git-subtree-check
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11:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #17329: linter: Strip trailing / in path for git-subtree-check (master...2019-10-subtree-path) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17329
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11:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #17331: Use effective values throughout coin selection (master...effective-value) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17331
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11:59 < jeremyrubin> meeting? 
12:00 < warren> here
12:00 < achow101> meeting?
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 31 19:00:21 2019 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < warren> hi
12:00 < kanzure> hi
12:00 < achow101> hi
12:00 < amiti> hi
12:00 < moneyball> hi
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12:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/811c381ab650...222b7d0ca795
12:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c5377ff Suhas Daftuar: [qa] Add shrinkdebugfile=0 to regtest bitcoin.conf
12:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 222b7d0 MarcoFalke: Merge #17330: test: Add shrinkdebugfile=0 to regtest bitcoin.conf
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12:01 < jeremyrubin> im unsure about DST
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12:01 < jeremyrubin> Oh
12:01 < sipa> hi
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12:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17330: test: Add shrinkdebugfile=0 to regtest bitcoin.conf (master...2019-10-shrinkdebugfile0) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17330
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12:01 < provoostenator> hi
12:02 < wumpus> yes, DST in europe changed
12:02 < wumpus> it's an hour earlier here
12:03 -!- reallll is now known as belcher
12:03 < meshcollider> wumpus: don't forget to ping everyone :p
12:03 < meshcollider> hi
12:03 < fanquake> hi
12:03 < wumpus> four proposed topics in https://gist.github.com/moneyball/071d608fdae217c2a6d7c35955881d8a : "moneyball: follow-up on travis and #16148" "umpus: close Boost -> C++11 migration project for now" "proposed by dongcarl: MacOS, notarization https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15774" "jeremyrubin: epoch mempool"
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16148 | Travis timeouts . Issue #16148 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
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12:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sdaftuar opened pull request #17332: [p2p] Proof-of-concept: Improve DoS-resistance to low-work headers chains (master...2019-10-no-checkpoints-cleanedup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17332
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12:04 < digi_james> Hi
12:04 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
12:04 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:04 < wumpus> currently 7 blockers, 7 chasing concept ACK
12:04 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
12:05 < BlueMatt> plz2add #16974
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16974 | Walk pindexBestHeader back to ChainActive().Tip() if it is invalid by TheBlueMatt . Pull Request #16974 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
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12:06 < wumpus> BlueMatt: added (to blocker I guess?)
12:06 < BlueMatt> yea
12:07 < BlueMatt> it blocks post-headers-over-dns rust progress (since I want to lean heavily on "I have a better header than blocks, but my peers dont have blocks" as a criteria for searching for alternate block download methods)
12:07 < wumpus> yes, makes sense
12:07 < wumpus> nothing else too add/remove?
12:08 < wumpus> #topic close Boost -> C++11 migration project for now (wumpus)
12:09 < warren> too much change required?
12:09 < wumpus> so it looks like all the low-hanging fruit for replacing boost has been picked now
12:10 < wumpus> what remains is hard to replace with C++11 (results in very verbose code, locale dependent legacy C, or introduces harder to maintain platform-specific code)
12:10 < jeremyrubin> It's basically just multiindex and boost::thread now right?
12:10 < wumpus> it's kind of a time wasting trap for developers now (regarding PRs like #17245)
12:10 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17245 | wallet: Remove Boost from DecodeDumpTime by elichai . Pull Request #17245 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
12:10 < wumpus> nah, people stumble over the sleep and date/time handling stuff every time
12:11 < wumpus> #17307 might still be worthwhile
12:11 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17307 | Stop using `boost::thread_group` . Issue #17307 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
12:11 < jeremyrubin> What about just checking in those specific copies of boost library code
12:11 < sipa> after 17307, won't removing boost::threa dbe a lot easier?
12:11 < jeremyrubin> Or are they too large/dependent on the rest of boost types
12:11 < wumpus> but it needs to be focused, we don't want to close the same PRs time after time that don't really make it
12:12 < wumpus> I think having that project open sends the wrong messag
12:12 < wumpus> we can't replace boost right now
12:12 < jeremyrubin> 17307, having worked on replacing thread_group in the checkqueue before, scares me a bit
12:12 < sipa> agree there
12:12 < wumpus> there's no need to replace, say, small string handling functions with our own impelentation, before we have a vision to replace the rest
12:13 < sipa> right; until we have a reasonable way to remove multiindex (which i'm not sure will ever happen), getting rid of boost entirely is not really useful
12:13 < dongcarl> Just so it's out there... we can maybe run bcp at some point when there's only one or two things left https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_71_0/tools/bcp/doc/html/index.html
12:13 < jeremyrubin> dongcarl: ++
12:13 < sipa> i do think there are individual improvements possible that dkn't go all the way, like removing boost::thread
12:14 < jnewbery> I agree that if it's not a priority then the project should be closed. It can always be re-opened later if necessary.
12:14 < wumpus> but in any case it doesn't seem like it needs a big coordinated project anymore
12:14 < sipa> how many non-headers-only boost libs are we still using?
12:14 < sipa> wumpus: agree
12:14 < jnewbery> (leaving a comment in the project description explaining why it's been closed)
12:14 < wumpus> when C++17 is allowed, it can be reopened
12:15 < fanquake> Guess #13751 can be closed with the same rationale as well then.
12:15 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13751 | Utils and libraries: Drops the boost/algorithm/string/split.hpp dependency by l2a5b1 . Pull Request #13751 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
12:15 < wumpus> fanquake: yes
12:15 < wumpus> there's not really a reason to do that right now
12:16 < warren> gitian binaries static link the libstdc++ so distro support won't change when C++17 happens right?
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12:16 < dongcarl> warren: Yes
12:16 < wumpus> warren: correct, assumning we can keep the same GLIBC req
12:16 < wumpus> (runtime)
12:17 < wumpus> which I don't see why not
12:17 < wumpus> statically linking using musl libc is another thing that might be considered in the future
12:18 < wumpus> but that's a whole different topic
12:18 < dongcarl> should be able to keep it as long as we 1. stick to Bionic 2. write new hooks, ick, or 3. use guix
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12:18 < cfields> Bionic?
12:18 < dongcarl> cfields: bionic has 1.27, which is what we've written hooks to support up to
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12:19 < dongcarl> glibc 1.27 that is
12:19 < sipa> i read "books" instead of hooks. was confused
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12:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #13751: Utils and libraries: Drops the boost/algorithm/string/split.hpp dependency (master...patch/remove_boost_split) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13751
12:19 < wumpus> hehe
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12:19 < jnewbery> Shall I go ahead and update the project description and then close?
12:19 < wumpus> jnewbery: yes, thanks
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12:20 < jnewbery> ok done
12:20 < wumpus> seems no one strongly disagrees
12:20 < wumpus> #topic MacOS, notarization (dongcarl)
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12:20 < jnewbery> updated description is visible here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects?query=is%3Aclosed
12:20 < dongcarl> Right, here
12:21 < wumpus>  #15774
12:21 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15774 | macOS App Notarization . Issue #15774 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
12:21 < dongcarl> Info available here: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/notarizing_your_app_before_distribution/customizing_the_notarization_workflow
12:21 < wumpus> jnewbery: great!
12:21 < dongcarl> Mostly just to make people aware of what's going to happen
12:21 < dongcarl> We're going to have a step in the release process that can only happen on a mac
12:21 < cfields> dongcarl: I think we should consider rejecting Apple's new requirement.
12:21 < wumpus> discntinuing MacOS binaries?
12:21 < dongcarl> cfields: that's something I've thought about too
12:22 < provoostenator> It depends on what the step is
12:22  * dongcarl typing gimme a sec
12:22 < cfields> I've been putting something together, probably best not to thought-dump here.
12:22 < provoostenator> As long as it's easy to review the difference on a non-Mac I don't mind too much.
12:22 < wumpus> htey make it harder and harder to distribute binaries for open source software
12:22 < luke-jr> [19:16:33] <warren> gitian binaries static link the libstdc++ so distro support won't change when C++17 happens right? <-- gitian binaries don't matter in this regard
12:22 < luke-jr> distro support is for NATIVE compiles
12:23 < luke-jr> (also, gitian binaries *don't* work on all distros)
12:23 < dongcarl> After we submit the app for notarization it is actually not NEEDED to staple it to the binary
12:23 < dongcarl> Apparently GateKeeper will query the Apple servers
12:23 < wumpus> luke-jr: that was last topic, but yes
12:23 < dongcarl> Which is convenient, but gives them A LOT OF CONTROL
12:23 < provoostenator> I'm not a huge fan of Apple getting a call from all our useres
12:23 < luke-jr> oh, I missed the #topic line
12:23 < provoostenator> So better to staple if it's not too difficult
12:23 < cfields> the bigger issue is that it makes Apple the final arbiter of what people can run. In a potential emergency fork/uasf scenario, this puts them in charge. I think it would be unwise for us to participate in that.
12:24 < luke-jr> wumpus: is Apple dropping support for unsigned binaries entirely?
12:24 < cfields> (final arbiter once we start down the path, that is)
12:24 < wumpus> yes, they want the same control as they have on iOS
12:24 < provoostenator> What changes when we go down the path?
12:24 < luke-jr> ugh
12:24 < moneyball> luke-jr: no you can still install but you have to "right click open"
12:24 < luke-jr> moneyball: right now, yes; but after these new changes?
12:24 < cfields> I think it's a mistake to engage that, because we can't go back. And if they refuse to sign a soft-fork, presumably there'd be nothing we could do.
12:25 < provoostenator> I don't understand why we can't go back
12:25 < luke-jr> cfields: we could timebomb..
12:25 < provoostenator> Do they change the installation rules once you notarize once?
12:25 < luke-jr> Knots already expires 1-2 years after the release
12:25 < dongcarl> I'm less worried about them refusing to sign
12:25 < dongcarl> I'm more worried about them signing: we've audited this binary and it's malicious
12:25 < moneyball> luke-jr: I run MacOS Catalina, am able to install 0.18 fine, and 0.19 RC3 I can install but need to "right click Open"
12:25 < cfields> provoostenator: if we engage once, then it would be a regression not to continue.
12:25 < dongcarl> That's a bad message to users
12:26 < provoostenator> cfields: arguably we're just kicking that regression down the road
12:26 < moneyball> If we make no changes, I think at minimum we need to communicate on the download site that one must "right click Open" otherwise many users will be perplexed as I was
12:26 < wumpus> it's not a regression if we never start supporting it
12:26 < provoostenator> Because Catalina users will encounter the regression (right click to install) now
12:26 < provoostenator> Which we can delay
12:26 < luke-jr> As long as users can run binaries w/o the notary, that sounds preferable
12:26 < wumpus> I think it's a good point, for a project like us, to be principled about it
12:26 < cfields> provoostenator: yes,( unpopular opinion time...) which is why it's worth considering dropping MacOs
12:27 < luke-jr> cfields: why drop entirely?
12:27 < cfields> I'm not saying that we should. I'm saying it's worth a discussion.
12:27 < wumpus> only when they *require* this
12:27 < wumpus> not right now
12:27 < luke-jr> can't our DMG just tell them right click etc in the folde rview?
12:27 < warren> are there other reasons aside from this?
12:27 < wumpus> but it's a possiblility in the future
12:28 < jeremyrubin> is there no more self-signing?
12:28 < wumpus> if it really becomes a closed platform
12:28 < sipa> cfields: stop supporting for release binarier, or stop supporting the platform? (i know the distinction is kinda vague for us, but we can still make sure our code compiles and runs fine, even if we're not providing binaries)
12:28 < jeremyrubin> Can we have a binary which we get apple to sign which self-signs our binary?
12:28 < wumpus> sipa: you can still build your own
12:28 < wumpus> sipa: using homebrew
12:28 < achow101> What changed between 0.18.x and 0.19 that 0.19 now triggers the warning but 0.18.x doesn't?
12:28 < jeremyrubin> Then apple would only have to sign it once, and then that can self-sign future cores
12:28 < wumpus> achow101: nothing in our code
12:29 < cfields> sipa: yes, thanks for making the distinction. The first would be far less problematic.
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12:29 < dongcarl> Here's the risk that I see: someone takes our codesigned binaries, gives it to Apple, Apple maybe mistakingly decides that the binary is malicious, and now everyone's GateKeeper will ask Apple about that codesigned binary, which will give them a "THIS IS MALICIOUS" popup on double-click
12:29 < achow101> wumpus: moneyball said that 0.18.x installs fine, but 0.19 doesn't, on the same system
12:29 < wumpus> achow101: only because iti's more recent I think
12:29 < sipa> cfields: devil's advocate... is this very different from say snap controlling our snap releases? sure, snap is not the only way you run bitcoind on ubuntu, but depending on the user's expertise there may not be that much difference in how much control those entities have over what consensus code gets adopted
12:29 < cfields> dongcarl: yes, and that's inevitible. Because we ARE bitcoin core. You know, the thing they're scanning their binaries for :)
12:29 < fanquake> I'd assume he'd already been running 0.18
12:31 < moneyball> fanquake: me? as an experiment i installed 0.18 yesterday to compare to the experience installing 0.19
12:31 < achow101> I think it would be worthwhile to investigate why that happens and see if we are able to avoid the warning without doing any apple special stuff
12:31 < luke-jr> [19:27:31] <warren> are there other reasons aside from this? <-- macOS only works on backdoored hardware; macOS is proprietary; etc
12:31 < fanquake> moneyball yea. I don't think the reinstalling 0.18 would make a difference though.
12:31 < cfields> achow101: yes, agree.
12:31 < wumpus> even google isn't aiming for that kind of total control of android
12:31 < fanquake> Otherwise suddenly everyone who updated to 10.15's software would start breaking.
12:31 < wumpus> sipa: your comparison would hold for the apple app store, not for things installed outside it
12:32 < fanquake> I'd assume the new checks only apply to "new" binaries you are trying to run.
12:32 < cfields> Admittedly I don't have enough info on this. But what I've read has really rubbed me the wrong way. So I'll shut up now and chime in on the issue instead :)
12:32 < fanquake> So if you'd already been running 0.18 previously, I don't think reinstalling it is going to cause an issue.
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12:32 < sipa> wumpus: fair point; but even on android you need to explicitly enable non-play store apk sources; that seems fairly similar to the right click "open anyway"
12:33 < fanquake> cfields: I assume your opinion is that we aren't shipping a macOS binary for 0.19 then? Assuming we're already at rc3?
12:33 < cfields> sipa: I'll have to think about that. I think it's different.
12:33 < provoostenator> I don't think it's very effective for a small (in terms of macOS user base) project to make a stance at this stage.
12:33 < wumpus> sipa: yes; I definiely don't think we should stop with MacOS binaries as long as that's possible
12:33 < dongcarl> Seems this is stirring up a lot of conversation, perhaps we can come back to this as the last topic?
12:33 < cfields> provoostenator: then I suppose we'd need to involve more projects :)
12:33 < ryanofsky> another danger of us not providing binaries is that someone else starts submitting and providing them, like happened with the snap store
12:34 < sipa> cfields: as far as ideology goes, supporting osx release binaries without participating in the gatekeeper stuff perhaps has more impact than dropping support entirely
12:34 < cfields> fanquake: Nah, for 0.19 I think we should just build/sign as before.
12:34 < jeremyrubin> ryanofsky: +1
12:34 < provoostenator> cfields: well, for starters it could be useful to get a bunch of projects together and try to get a physical meeting with Apple
12:34 < wumpus> provoostenator: I'm not really interested in having it being effective as a political strategy in general
12:34 < achow101> I can (probably) find a mac that doesn't have core installed and try
12:34 < provoostenator> They might be open to actually fixing this.
12:34 < wumpus> provoostenator: it would be a bad idea for bitcoin, so for bitcoin we should reject it
12:34 < fanquake> cfields: with just a warning / opening instructions on the website / in the dmg?
12:34 < sipa> provoostenator: i very much doubt that
12:34 < fanquake> ^
12:35 < sipa> provoostenator: i suspect that from their perspective, the fact that people can run unvetted binaries is a historical legacy that needs to be fixed :)
12:35 < provoostenator> Well if the answer is "we don't want to fix this, we like a gated community" then that's a nice quote to start a boycott.
12:35 < ryanofsky> dongcarl, if we do decide to "staple" the apple signature, is it still easily possible for a user to verify the executed code was built reproducibly & signed by us?
12:36 < provoostenator> ^ that's the most important question imo
12:36 < cfields> ryanofsky: that's already how it operates. We "staple" on the detached sig. It's easily auditable.
12:36 < jeremyrubin> Odd question: if we ship a binary + a VM, can we just run it in the VM always?
12:36 < wumpus> I'm not going to upload any binaries that aren't possible to verify in a distributed way
12:36 < cfields> I assume it'd be the same here. If not, surely we could write a tool to handle it.
12:37 < ryanofsky> ok, that's good at least
12:37 < achow101> is it possible to "staple" without a mac?
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12:37 < dongcarl> not possible to "staple" without a mac right now
12:37 < fanquake> You'd need Xcode and associated tools
12:37 < cfields> It's not possible to do the detached sigs without a mac either.. the tooling is our own.
12:37 < sipa> is it possible to undo the stapling on non-mac?
12:38 < cfields> Er, let me rephrase...
12:38 < cfields> There's no supported way sign on non-mac as we do now, but that didn't stop us from hacking something together :)
12:38 < achow101> someone would have to reverse engineer how it's "stapled" and write a tool for it for other platforms
12:39 < cfields> So I assume we could do something similar again. Might turn into a 3-stage gitian build, though :(
12:39 < dongcarl> what cfields said
12:39 < fanquake> Liking something we can take away from this discussion: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/30126
12:39 < fanquake> *likely
12:39 < sipa> cfields: what if instead of doing the stapling in the 2nd/3rd gitian stage, we write a tool that can compare a stapled binary against a deterministic one?
12:39 < sipa> that could even remove the need for the 2nd stage we have now
12:40 < wumpus> cfields: adding a slight delay is usually not a problem
12:40 < dongcarl> sipa: A notarization strip tool?
12:40 < sipa> dongcarl: yes
12:40 < cfields> sipa: I don't think it's possible to be deterministic because of the timestamping, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.
12:40 < sipa> let me start over
12:40 < dongcarl> cfields: He's talking about our existing deterministic codesigned binary
12:41 < sipa> do we actually care that the codesigning/timestamping/notarizing step is deterministic?
12:41 < wumpus> yes
12:41 < sipa> the point of determinism is showing that the shipped binaries match our source code
12:41 < wumpus> at least the attach-signature step
12:41 < warren> presumably the timestamp is part of the stapled part, while the executable part could be verified after stapling?
12:42 < wumpus> the signing itself doesn't need to be determinsitic, it's only done once by one person
12:42 < sipa> if you could *strip* the codesigning from a binary, and compare the result of that with the deterministic unsigned result, don't we achieve the same thing?
12:42 < sipa> in that case the notarizing/codesigning could be done entirely outside of gitian, removing the 2 phase process we have now
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12:43 < sipa> that of course only works if the stripping tool is easily auditable
12:43 < cfields> sipa: I see. You'd have to trust the stripping tool and be able to audit the diff, but that could work.
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12:43 < sipa> right, it depends on how complicated the stripping is
12:43 < wumpus> so instead of uploading my own gitian results, I'd have to upload the binary someone else sends me
12:43 < cfields> sipa: IIRC there's a reason we didn't do it that way. Can't seem to remember though, maybe not.
12:44 < dongcarl> how many people do the codesigning right now?
12:44 < sipa> wumpus: you'd upload the codesigned binary, but the gitian results contain the non-codesigned hash
12:44 < sipa> the comparison tool strips the codesigning, and compares with gitian
12:44 < achow101> dongcarl: 2. cfields for windows, jonasschnelli for mac
12:45 < dongcarl> right, if it's just one person for each platform then perhaps stripping is not too bad?
12:46 < cfields> sipa: ah, at the time, it might've just been about the tooling. Easier to add than remove. That likely isn't an issue anymore though, there's better tooling now.
12:46 < wumpus> at least now it's possible to look up the sha256 of the binaries from the SHA256SUMS.asc in gitian, and see they match, this would add an extra step
12:46 < wumpus> I don't like it but ok...
12:46 < sipa> wumpus: agreed, it's annoying; but needing to comply with ever-increasing notarization/codesigning requirements is also annoying
12:47 < sipa> it's just an idea; no need to decide anything now
12:47 < wumpus> this wouoldn't avoid that right?
12:47 < fanquake> Apparently we wont actually need the secure timestamp or hardened runtime until January next year
12:48 < fanquake> https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a
12:48 < provoostenator> You can still put the sha of the signed binary in the gitian result, along with the sha of the stripped version.
12:48 < cfields> Bitcoin 0.20 when? :p
12:48 < wumpus> why even bother with bitcoincore.org uploads anymore, if you go through all these hoops, can't you put it on the app store directly?
12:48 < achow101> that's in two months...
12:48 < dongcarl> wumpus: this would avoid us having to reverse engineer each notarization/codesigning step and writing a tool to do it under our reproducible builds process
12:48 < jeremyrubin> Here's a reductionist viewpoint: It's not worth jumping through too many hoops for apple users, because ultimately if the person shipping your kernel decides you don't want them running bitcoin, or a version of bitcoin, you're already, to put it lightly, fucked
12:48 < fanquake> achow101 at least it means a 0.19.0 release is simpler...
12:48 < fanquake> and gives us time to figure out future tooling
12:49 < jeremyrubin> So this is maybe a problem we can't really solve for OSX users, short of giving them a liberated computer
12:49 < sipa> back to short-term issue: are our processes already using the secure timestamp and/or hardened runtime?
12:49 < provoostenator> wumpus: app stores come with additional problems though, like auto-update
12:49 < sipa> or how hard is it to do so
12:49 < wumpus> let's go to the next issue, already spent too much time on apple junk
12:50 < wumpus> two topics left and 10 minutes
12:50 < sipa> ok
12:50 < wumpus> #topic follow-up on travis and #16148 (moneyball)
12:50 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16148 | Travis timeouts . Issue #16148 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
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12:51 < wumpus> moneyball?
12:51 < moneyball> hi
12:51 < moneyball> my name is on the topic but it is from 1 month ago
12:51 < instagibbs> moneyball, don't timeout in 10 minutes ;)
12:51 < moneyball> when we discussed the same topic and said punt 1 month
12:51 < wumpus> oh
12:52 < moneyball> since then the PR was closed
12:52 < moneyball> maybe MarcoFalke can discuss that?
12:52 < moneyball> also we were wondering the status of jonasschnelli's related project
12:52 < wumpus> ok, might be better to move to jeremyrubin's topic for now then
12:53 < moneyball> sure
12:53 < wumpus> #topic  epoch mempool (jeremyrubin)
12:53 < jeremyrubin> Hi!
12:53 < jeremyrubin> So Epoch Mempool is a relatively big upgrade to the way the mempool tracks relatives state
12:53 < jeremyrubin> We replace a ton of std::sets with epoch tracking for touching txiters
12:54 < sipa> yay
12:54 < jeremyrubin> This is done because we have restrictive limits on the number of descendants, which is a problem for protocols like lightning or OP_STB
12:54 < jeremyrubin> The PR is just a start, but it's a good checkpoint on improvement progress
12:54 < jeremyrubin> (I will have follow ups that are further improvements)
12:55 < sipa> it's clear to me that that approach in theory at least should be possible and improve performance; i haven't looked at the code
12:55 < jeremyrubin> But the critical question is: what standard of "evidence" do we want to see to be comfortable with such an improvement not introducing regressions in performance?
12:55 < instagibbs> it's also a problem for services due to simple transaction pinning
12:55 < wumpus> is mempool performance a bottleneck?
12:55 < sipa> wumpus: for increasing the mempool limits, it is
12:56 < sipa> (package size, ancestor depth, ...)
12:56 < wumpus> okay
12:56 < instagibbs> sipa, is there a good writeup of "all" the reasons for the limits? There are 1 or 2 on suhas' writeup on the wiki, but likely not exhaustive of collective wisdom
12:57 < sipa> instagibbs: not that i know
12:57 < ariard> is this a change only in the way we traverse mempool sets or also in the way we compute entry feerate?
12:57 < jeremyrubin> Traversal only as of now
12:57 < jeremyrubin> The notes aren't really fully up-to-date either
12:57 < sipa> instagibbs: and sdaftuar likely knows better than i do
12:57 < instagibbs> I think I've hit up sdaftuar for all he currently has written done(which is better than 0!)
12:58 < ariard> hmmmm did you spend time to think how we compute feerate? improving this point first could ease traversal
12:58 < jeremyrubin> Feerate isn't really the chief issue here IMO
12:58 < sipa> ariard: what do you mean by compute feerate?
12:58 < instagibbs> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/Mempool-and-mining poached slides being referenced
12:58 < jeremyrubin> But it does cause a lot of traversal-ing
12:58 < ariard> tracking ancestor/descendant size/fees
12:59 < instagibbs> the modified feerate you mean
13:00 < jeremyrubin> In either case, the feerate stuff is easier to deal with as it (iirc) ends up being O(N)-ish if you traverse in the correct order.
13:00 < jeremyrubin> But the speed of those traversals you have to pay on adding a txn or removing one 
13:00 < ariard> yes nModifiesFees
13:00 < wumpus> let's wrap up please, it's almost time to close the meeting
13:00 < jeremyrubin> Ok
13:00 < jeremyrubin> I guess please review #17268
13:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17268 | Epoch Mempool by JeremyRubin . Pull Request #17268 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
13:01 < wumpus> #action review #17268
13:01 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: 1) what is "epoch tracking" ?
13:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17268 | Epoch Mempool by JeremyRubin . Pull Request #17268 . bitcoin/bitcoin . GitHub
13:01 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:01 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 31 20:01:21 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:01 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-10-31-19.00.html
13:01 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-10-31-19.00.txt
13:01 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-10-31-19.00.log.html
13:01 < instagibbs> new benchmark also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17292
13:01 < sipa> jeremyrubin: it may make sense to give a 1-sentence summary :)
13:01 < wumpus> cfields: I'll post the proposed 0.20 schedule soon, was waiting for -final, but seems we're almost there anyhow
13:01 < jeremyrubin> We basically just keep track of the last time we looked at a TxMemPoolEntry
13:02 < jeremyrubin> And if we've looked more recently than a given time, we ignore looking again.
13:02 < cfields> wumpus: oh, that was a joke. I was saying we should put out 0.20 before January so we have another release under our belt before Apple decides it doesn't like our dmgs :)
13:03 < jeremyrubin> Many of the algorithms in the mempool can be simplified greatly with this tactic
13:03 < nickler> #proposedmeetingtopic security email address for bitcoin-core/secp256k1 (https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/679)
13:03 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: does that make sense?
13:03 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: as for standards, does it hurt performance when using policies other than Core's feerate-only one?
13:03 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: as for standards, does it hurt performance when using policies other than Core's feerate-only one?
13:03 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: eg, I would want someone to evalulate if it makes priority-based mining any slower or harder to implemented
13:04 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: Unless you have something odd, it should have no impact
13:04 < sipa> luke-jr: that's completely orthogonal; it just speeds up all recursive algorithms over transactions
13:04 < jeremyrubin> * negative impact
13:04 < sipa> am i right: (a) there is a global epoch counter in the overall mempool; (b) every time we "iterate" in a recursive algorithm through a transaction, that transaction's timestamp is set to the mempool epoch and the epoch is incremented (c) when iterating, you can ignore any transaction whose timestamp is later than the epoch of when you started iterating; (d) you make sure there are no two recursive 
13:04 < sipa> algorithms simultaneously updating the...
13:04 < sipa> timestamps
13:05 < jeremyrubin> yes
13:05 < jeremyrubin> Although there are specific cases where the recursive both updating is desirable
13:05 < jeremyrubin> It's not used here
13:06 < jeremyrubin> This also opens us up to really fancy pants stuff down the line like parallelized mempool traversals
13:07 < jeremyrubin> Because the epochs are replacing data structures like std::set
13:07 < jeremyrubin> sipa: but yeah your base understanding is spot on
13:07 < jeremyrubin> THe other benefit is that we can now accumulate the results into better data structures, e.g., vec instead of set
13:08 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: not really, but I'm having some connection issues, so I may have missed parts
13:08 < luke-jr> nickler: I wonder if it would make sense to simply have different PGP targets - it can be helpful to know a report was made even if you're not privy to the nature of it
13:08 < luke-jr> eg, if Wladimir is preparing a final release when a security issue gets reported, he knows to check with sipa or someone else if it should get delayed
13:09 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: just read the pr if you haven't? It's like +300loc -200loc. It should have 0 impact on priority mining
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13:10 < jeremyrubin> You can look at just like the first couple commits, and then you'll get the gist
13:10 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I'll have to re-read the log later when my connection is better
13:10 < luke-jr> or the PR
13:10 < luke-jr> k
13:10 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17268/commits/b01cdd429459a1db42a3c24b7bf141c6695e21de
13:11 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17268/commits/17a0a5214666871ea2fe7134d99733090f4acf4a
13:11 < jeremyrubin> Just look at those two; that's the basic idea and the rest of the PR is just refinements/applications of that principal
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13:14 < sipa> principle?
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13:22 < jeremyrubin> yeah my bad
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13:36 < nickler> luke-jr: good point. It seems like you're suggesting to use security@bitcoincore.org then? That has the downside of potentially (depending how it's actually set up) reaching more people when the report is unencrypted.
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13:37 < nickler> Alternatively it's the responsibility of the secp256k1-security@bitcoincore.org people to warn Wladimir before making a release
13:42 < jeremyrubin> So another topic; can we make the benchmarking framework support asymptotic testing too? 
13:42 < jeremyrubin> Or add a new one?
13:42 < jeremyrubin> E.g., it would be nice to be able to run an algorithm 10 times with inputs that are powers of 10
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13:42 < jeremyrubin> And collect the outputs.
13:43 < jeremyrubin> But this is incompatible with the current framework, which has a goal of having the test take a second or something
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13:49 < luke-jr> nickler: dunno, just a thought; also, would they warn me or other affected software too?
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13:51 < luke-jr> probably a broader discussion of security handlign is desirable (to avoid a repeat of 17144, fix the "stuff never gets disclosed" issue, etc)
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14:00 < nickler> I guess that depends and having a defined process could be valuable. Also, making libsecp releases and asking people to update regularly would help. But for now just a contact address would already be a simple and effective improvement over the current situation.
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16:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt opened pull request #17335: Add test for syncing blocks generated after invalidateblock. (master...2019-10-invalid-mine-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17335
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16:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Rjected opened pull request #17336: scripts: search for first block file for linearize-data with some block files pruned (master...linearize) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17336
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 01 00:00:04 2019