--- Log opened Thu Mar 12 00:00:23 2020
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01:10 < vasild> kallewoof: I am going to test https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17994 today and I wonder if there is a better way than just start it to download blocks and try to observe how it behaves. Is there a way to test in a controlled environment where we feed out-of-order blocks to it deterministically?
01:11 < kallewoof> vasild: nice! you'll get out of order blocks for sure just by running it for a bit, is my experience. One thing you can do is put in some LogPrintfs when it hits the "finalize" case in case you wanna check that.
01:13 < vasild> ok
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02:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9cc7eba1b565...4c42a13205a1
02:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0ae42a1 Carl Dong: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag
02:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4c42a13 fanquake: Merge #18320: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag
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02:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18320: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag (master...2020-03-fix-ssp-in-guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18320
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03:26 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18331: [WIP]  build: Use git archive as source tarball  (master...20200312-git-archive) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18331
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03:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #17104: build: `make dist` uses `git archive` (master...build/archive-dist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17104
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05:31 < provoostenator> vasild: or you could write a regest for that, although we'd need more fine grained control of the regtest nodes p2p behavior
05:32 < provoostenator> Not sure how far you can get with submitblock RPC.
05:36 < vasild> provoostenator: I found out that https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/validation_block_tests.cpp#L151 is very close to what's needed to reproduce the out-of-order block feeding wrt #17994. I am now replacing its random multi-threaded call of ProcessNewBlock() with a signle-threaded deterministic out-of-order block supply. Lets see what happens...
05:36 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17994 | validation: flush undo files after last block write by kallewoof · Pull Request #17994 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:38 < vasild> at least I will be able to observe the issue and its fix manually from the log, not sure if it will be possible to completely automate and add as a test. Is it possible to check if something was or was not printed in the log from a BOOST_AUTO_TEST_CASE()?
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06:11 < jonatack> vasild: I don't know the unit tests suite well yet, and there may be better examples, but maybe have a look in
06:11 < jonatack> getarg_tests.cpp
06:12 < jonatack> notably the logargs test
06:13 < jonatack> it performs checks on the debug log
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06:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4c42a13205a1...2737197ff39f
06:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa2cf85 MarcoFalke: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit
06:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2737197 MarcoFalke: Merge #18213: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit
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06:16 < pinheadmz> anyone know why the testnet seeds list is just a few onion URLs? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/seeds/nodes_test.txt
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06:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18213: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit (master...2002-qaFixRaceSegwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18213
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06:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #17627: Suppress false positive warning about uninitialized entropy buffers (master...2019/11/buffers) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17627
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06:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2737197ff39f...e2d36639ca87
06:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faf6f15 MarcoFalke: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue
06:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2d3663 MarcoFalke: Merge #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue
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06:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue (master...2002-testFixRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18228
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06:26 < wumpus> pinheadmz: no, no idea, I do know the list of testnet seed nodes is hardly ever updated, seems the last time was 2015 (and that was mostly a move) so it's likely hugely out of date too
06:27 < wumpus> it probably doesn't make sense, e.g. wasteful, to hardcode a long list like we do for mainnet, but it would be good if someone checked the testnet list for staleness
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07:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18322: refactor: Add params to node context (master...2003-nodeParams) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18322
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07:38 < hebasto> #18331 status is changed from WIP to 'ready to review' ;)
07:38 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18331 | build: Use git archive as source tarball by hebasto · Pull Request #18331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:42 < wumpus> I like that Drahtbot has an octopus in the rebase messages now <3
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08:24 < pinheadmz> wumpus: only 1 of those testnet onions seems to be alive: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13550#issuecomment-598248941
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08:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18333: build: Drop deprecated ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS variable (master...20200311-deprecated-amflags) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18333
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10:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18334: test: Add basic test for BIP 37 (master...2003-qa37) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18334
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10:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] LarryRuane opened pull request #18335: bitcoin-cli: print useful error if bitcoind rpc work queue exceeded (master...cli-work-queue-error-msg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18335
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11:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18336: script: Fix gitian-build.py --pull option (master...20200312-gitian-build-pull) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18336
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11:06 < luke-jr> not sure if I will make the meeting today
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11:45 < wumpus> I guess the main topic will be the upcoming feature freeze
11:45 < wumpus> and what things to focus on to get in before that
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12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 12 19:00:11 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < MarcoFalke> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
12:00 < sipsorcery>  hi
12:00 < wumpus> jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
12:00 < kanzure> hi
12:00 < jkczyz> hi
12:00 < emilengler> hi
12:00 < fjahr> hi
12:00 < promag> hi
12:00 < jonatack> hello
12:00 < provoostenator> hi (though distracted)
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12:00 < hebasto> hi
12:01 < wumpus> one proposed topic in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt : PPA URI (luke-jr) if he's here
12:01 < achow101> hi
12:01 < amiti> hi
12:01 < kanzure> other topic: status of coredev.tech survey about meeting options, or any results, or when to expect as much
12:01 < kanzure> (i don't have that information)
12:01 < luke-jr> here for now
12:01 < wumpus> good thing that it was decided to cancel coredev last week, because people from Europe aren't even allowed to travel to the US anymore
12:02 < wumpus> #topic Features for 0.20
12:02 < sipa>   hi
12:02 < wumpus> as you might know, the feature freeze for 0.20 is in three days (the 15th)
12:03 < wumpus> is there anything in progress, that only needs a bit of review to go, could still be ready before then?
12:03 < hebasto> #16224 ?
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16224 | gui: Bilingual GUI error messages by hebasto · Pull Request #16224 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < wumpus> hebasto: yes, good one
12:04 < achow101> #17509?
12:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17509 | gui: save and load PSBT by Sjors · Pull Request #17509 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < achow101> I'd like #18204 too
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18204 | descriptors: improve descriptor cache and cache xpubs by achow101 · Pull Request #18204 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < emilengler> hebasto: Will review this PR tomorrow
12:05 < provoostenator> ^ I'll try to conserve ACKs but can quickly address feedback if needed on
12:05 < wumpus> that would be really nice to have
12:07 < wumpus> achow101: is 18204 a feature or performance improvement?
12:07 < wumpus> (I mean if the latter it could potentially go in after the feature freeze)
12:08 < achow101> it can go in after the feature freeze I guess
12:08 < achow101> it's really a performance improvement
12:08 < sipa> i think it's a weak performance improvement, but also a necessity for descriptor wallets
12:08 < wumpus> but it has quite some ACKs, I see, so might not need to wait that long anyhow
12:09 < achow101> I just don't want it to get stuck for another few months with 2 acks
12:09 < wumpus> it's always ok to remind me if something is almost ready for merge btw no need to wait until the meeting
12:10 < wumpus> #topic PPA URI (luke-jr)
12:11 < sipa> pinging BlueMatt 
12:11 < sipa> ah, he's going through airport security
12:11 < cncr04s> remove that 3 second wait on the send button
12:12 < sipa> ?
12:12 < cncr04s> or at least add an option
12:12 < wumpus> I'll let BlueMatt and luke-jr fight this out
12:12 < MarcoFalke> I think the only question was whether to use deterministic builds or not
12:12 < MarcoFalke> I can't see an argument for non-deterministic builds
12:12 < sipa> and whether we want to support PPAs at all
12:12 < wumpus> I think that's the main question
12:12 < achow101> there's various documentation written by other people that refer to the ppa
12:13 < sipa> if we can make the PPA deterministic (or even identical to the release builds), that would be ideal
12:13 < wumpus> yes, definitely
12:13 < luke-jr> I am maintaining the PPA
12:14 < sipa> <BlueMatt> Note that ppa has two series’ of issues that releases did not: GUI issues that persisted for two releases and weren’t ever solved and the 32-bit test failures.
12:14 < luke-jr> I don't really know why anyone else needs to be involved in this fact..
12:14 < sipa> <BlueMatt> The second one especially scares me
12:14 < wumpus> what do you need from us then?
12:14 < luke-jr> the only question in my mind is whether it should remain at 'bitcoin' as some have suggested, or move to my own launchpad
12:14 < MarcoFalke> That was the gcc compiler bug
12:14 < sipa> <BlueMatt> But if people want it, it should be maintained as a part of the packaging repo
12:15 < achow101> I think it should remain at 'bitcoin' as that's where a bunch of docs that mention the ppa point to
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12:15 < luke-jr> BlueMatt seems to not only want to stop maitnaining it, but also suppress others from doing so. hence the meeting topic
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12:16 < MarcoFalke> I think we shouldn't offer software that is impossible to audit
12:16 < MarcoFalke> determinisitic builds in the ppa are fine, though
12:16 < wumpus> well the "bitcoin" PPA is his so as for maintining that that's his decision, if you maintain youre own somewhere else that's fine, but we likely won't link to it
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12:16 < wumpus> (we never even linked from the repo to his ppa either afaik)
12:17 < sipa> bitcoincore
12:17 < achow101> wumpus: the ppa has been linked to before from both our repo and bitcoincore.org. those were removed, but it has been "official"
12:17 < sipa> bitcoincore.org or bitcoin.org linked to it as a way of installing
12:18 < MarcoFalke> Yes, I remember removing that link
12:18 < wumpus> achow101: I think the ppa was only linked as a means to install bdb4
12:18 < wumpus> oh okay
12:19 < MarcoFalke> I think there is no one objecting a ppa that wraps our normal release builds
12:19 < wumpus> like the snap does, right?
12:20 < MarcoFalke> jup
12:20 < MarcoFalke> But some people don't like the snap, because it doesn't install it in the "classic" location etc
12:20 < luke-jr> … how much of that made it :/
12:21 < luke-jr> Canonical is ultimately responsible for the PPA builds
12:21 < sipa> it's also not what you'd get by building from source and knstalling
12:21 < luke-jr> the gitian builds are terrible; they have a purpose, sure, but they're not even close to what users ideally would use
12:21 < wumpus> luke-jr: your last message was "BlueMatt seems to not only want to stop maitnaining it, but also suppress others from doing so. hence the meeting topic"
12:21 < luke-jr> the PPA is built by the OS vendor, and produces binaries specifically for the OS
12:21 < luke-jr> wumpus: after that was [19:16:12] <luke-jr> so I guess the questions are 1) do we want to keep the PPA at the old URI, and 2) can we satisfy BlueMatt to allow that?
12:21 < wumpus> make the gitian builds less horrible then
12:21 < luke-jr> wumpus: that's incompatible with the goal of them
12:22 < wumpus> it's what everything is based on and the only auditable one
12:22 < luke-jr> wumpus: gitian builds are intended to run anywhere, but that's incompatible with being targetted to a specific distro
12:22 < achow101> luke-jr: how so? something that runs anywhere should also run on a specific distro
12:22  * dongcarl is so confused
12:22 < MarcoFalke> agree with achow101
12:22 < sipa> luke-jr: just because of UI theming etc?
12:22 < luke-jr> achow101: ideally, binaries should dynamic link to system libraries for ~everything
12:23 < wumpus> things like GUI costomization/integration I guess
12:23 < luke-jr> sipa: that's a symptom
12:23 < wumpus> not that that ever worked well for the PPA
12:23 < wumpus> we had more UI issues with the PPA than ever with the gitian builds
12:23 < sipa> seema like a small price to pay for auditabke builds
12:23 < achow101> luke-jr: but we don't necessarily support the specific system libraries that may be installed
12:23 < sipa> sorry, car tyoing
12:23 < luke-jr> nobody is suggesting removing the gitian option
12:23 < achow101> there may be version differences, etc.
12:23 < luke-jr> achow101: we do
12:24 < wumpus> although at least the crazyness with ubuntu unity is gone now
12:24 < luke-jr> achow101: the preferred install is from source
12:24 < luke-jr> achow101: (and PPAs don't support distros without the required versions)
12:25 < luke-jr> logical order of preference, for an Ubuntu user, is build-from-source > PPA > gitian
12:25 < wumpus> but I agree with sipa, deterministic builds are worth a little bit of GUI integration annoyance
12:25 < MarcoFalke> If someone really wants to use the system libs, why can't they build from source?
12:25 < luke-jr> it might be nice if we could deterministically make the PPA debs, but Launchpad doesn't support that
12:25 < achow101> if a distro version lacks the requisite system libs, gitian would still work there, no? I think that's a good thing
12:25 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: many users don't know how, or don't want to spend the time
12:25 < dongcarl> Very naive thought: is it possible to have 2 PPAs, 1 for gitian built binaries, 1 for specifically OS-integrated?
12:25 < luke-jr> achow101: absolutely
12:26 < MarcoFalke> dongcarl: I'd support that
12:26 < luke-jr> achow101: PPAs are not a replacement for gitian, they are an alternative for certain users
12:26 < luke-jr> dongcarl: should be
12:26 < MarcoFalke> bitcoin/bitcoin would be deterministic and luke-jr/bitcoin is built with system libs
12:26 < luke-jr> dongcarl: sounds like a good idea, even
12:26 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: that seems backward
12:26 < luke-jr> bitcoin/bitcoin has always been system libs
12:27 < sipa> luke-jr: you seem to be the only one arguing for system libs
12:27 < luke-jr> sipa: so?
12:27 < achow101> I think anything "official" should only be determinisitic
12:27 < MarcoFalke> agree
12:27 < sipa> agree
12:27 < wumpus> achow101: +1
12:28 < dongcarl> agree
12:28 < fanquake> +1
12:28 < luke-jr> achow101: why?
12:28 < luke-jr> Distro-built is equivalent security
12:28 < luke-jr> if your distro is compromised, a gitian build won't help you
12:28 < wumpus> because it's the only one we can vouch for based on the sha256 hashes
12:28 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: We are talking about the ppa infrastructure being compromised, not the normal package build infra
12:29 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: isn't it the same?
12:29 < MarcoFalke> I hope for Ubuntu that they are different, at least different datacenters
12:29 < sipa> MarcoFalke: i doubt that
12:29 < wumpus> so I think we've pretty much reached an agreement here, any other topics?
12:29 < luke-jr> anyway, how about adding a disclaimer to the effect of "These are built by Canonical, not the Bitcoin Core project"?
12:29 < achow101> luke-jr: how is it the same?
12:30 < luke-jr> achow101: PPAs are built by Canonical
12:30 < sipa> luke-jr: and maintained by the PPA maintainer
12:30 < wumpus> yes but their build infrastructure runs arbitrary builds of arbitrary software, in the PPA case, so it's not that far fetched it could be compromised
12:30 < luke-jr> sipa: just like the snaps are..
12:30 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: The snap you can check against the signed hash
12:31 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: our website says you can't last I checked
12:31 < wumpus> right, the snap packages the gitian-built executables so you can verify them in the same way
12:31 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: I coldn't find a cross-platform way to do it
12:31 < MarcoFalke> But on my machine it works last time I tried
12:31 < wumpus> this would also be true for a PPA that packages the gitian-built binaries
12:32 < jonatack> wumpus: I am not sure the blockers are a topic this week, but FWIW it looks like #16426 is currently replaced by #17954
12:32 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16426 | Reverse cs_main, cs_wallet lock order and reduce cs_main locking by ariard · Pull Request #16426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:32 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17954 | wallet: Remove calls to Chain::Lock methods by ryanofsky · Pull Request #17954 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:32 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: it verifies the entire snap, not just the chosen binaries installed?
12:32 < jonatack> which, by mutual agreement of the PR authors, apparently should be merged in first
12:33 < wumpus> jonatack: I've forgone blockers because of focusing on things that need to go in before the feature freeze which is imminent, but sure I'll swap them
12:33 < luke-jr> I'm not entirely sure what argument sipa is trying to make..
12:33 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Of course you'd still have to trust the snapd
12:33 < luke-jr> there is no way I could as maintainer compromise the PPA without it being publicly visible
12:34 < achow101> but it's possible for canonical to compromise it invisibly
12:34 < luke-jr> achow101: absolutely.
12:34 < luke-jr> just like they can compromise the OS
12:34 < luke-jr> in which case gitian does no good to prevent it
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12:35 < achow101> but at least users can verify that the ppa was not compromised with gitian
12:36 < hebasto> are any estimation of a ppa share among all users?
12:36 < achow101> and IIRC, PPAs can still be used on ubuntu derivatives
12:36 < achow101> and other distros which are not necessarily canonical
12:36 < luke-jr> hebasto: very few have noticed the URI changed
12:36 < sipa> luke-jr: it didn't cba ge
12:36 < sipa> it was discontinued
12:36 < luke-jr> sipa: no, I am still maintaining it
12:36 < sipa> you have your own PPA
12:37 < luke-jr> hebasto: 2019-09, there were still around 8000 users of the PPA at bitcoin/bitcoin
12:37 < wumpus> so we already discussed a compromise acceptable with most people here (two PPAs), I'm not sure it makes sense to continue arguing this
12:37 < luke-jr> who are now stuck on 0.18.0 until they switch to the new PPA
12:38 < luke-jr> wumpus: anyone can make a 2nd PPA, but I'm not sure there's a need with the snap doing the gitian binaries already
12:38 < sipa> maybe we should, until we resolve this, push an update to the PPA that installs a binary that just prints "this is not maintained, see page X"
12:38 < luke-jr> sipa: or at least deletes the binary
12:39 < sipa> right
12:39 < sipa> i agree there are probably people stuck at 0.18 by not noticing the ppa page that says it's not maintained
12:39 < luke-jr> maybe less invasive to patch 0.18.0 with a message, but.. not sure I like the idea of doing a known-vulnerable "release"
12:39 < wumpus> at least make sure it doesn't delete the wallet ...
12:39 < sipa> wumpus: i don't think system installs can delete user files
12:40 < wumpus> sipa: I think that was a risk wit hthe snap at some point
12:40 < luke-jr> I guess that's one potentially scary thing about Snaps
12:40 < luke-jr> yeah
12:40 < sipa> wumpus: i know nothing about snap
12:40 < luke-jr> sipa: it's basically a chroot AIUI
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12:40 < wumpus> but yes unintalling a deb shouldn't remove user files (or even system configuration files without --purge)
12:41 < MarcoFalke> Snap creates a snapshot of your wallet on uninstall
12:41 < sipa> MarcoFalke: scary
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12:41 < luke-jr> I suppose that might be a reason to support a second gitian-binary PPA
12:41 < MarcoFalke> sipa: Less scary than deleting it
12:42 < sipa> fair
12:42 < luke-jr> back to the original topic though, bitcoin/bitcoin seems like a bad URI IMO
12:42 < luke-jr> bumping it with a move message seems like a good solution
12:42 < luke-jr> and that can refer to the two new PPAs with clarification of distinction
12:42 < luke-jr> ?
12:43 < luke-jr> could be luke-jr/bitcoincore & luke-jr/bitcoincore-deterministic, or bitcoincore/bitcoincore-{system,deterministic} or something along those lines?
12:43 < luke-jr> (not promising I'll make the gitian binary PPA - just throwing out ideas for discussion)
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12:44 < luke-jr> advantage of the former is that it's obvious who maintains it; but the latter will work even if multiple people or maintainers change
12:44 < achow101> I think we have to keep bitcoin/bitcoin just to keep existing docs working and not confusing existing users further
12:44 < luke-jr> downside of the latter is it implies the project is responsible for it, which seems undesirable
12:45 < wumpus> if there's two PPAs then docs have to be updated anyway
12:45 < luke-jr> achow101: currently only BlueMatt has a monopoly on the 'bitcoin' name
12:45 < wumpus> WITH documentation on what the choice is and why
12:45 < luke-jr> even providing a notice-bump on the old PPA will require BlueMatt's cooperation
12:47 < MarcoFalke> In launchpad it is possible to change the email address to something@bitcoincore.org, so that whoever has access to that can reset it
12:47 < MarcoFalke> That is how I set up the snap
12:49 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: I don't know how BlueMatt setup the Launchpad stuff - I suspect the account is his personal account, and ~bitcoin is just a team with only him
12:49 < luke-jr> would be nice if we could come to some agreement here to present to BlueMatt.. maybe "two new PPAs, and bump bitcoin/bitcoin with a notice"?
12:49 < luke-jr> actually, notice should mention the gitian builds and Snap too for completeness IMO
12:51 < wumpus> yes +1 with adding a notice to bitcoin/bitcoin at least, no matter if there's any new PPAs
12:52 < luke-jr> it would be IMO absurd to say that BlueMatt is allowed to maintain a PPA and I am not
12:52 < luke-jr> (which is what would be implied by refusing to tell users of the new URI)
12:52 < wumpus> well we all think an 'official' PPA should be built from the gitian-built binaries, and you disagree with that, so that's not entirely unexpected 
12:53 < luke-jr> wumpus: it never has been
12:53 < ryanofsky> does PPA require a single maintainer? with snaps we have a github packaging repository that gets normal review and a something@bitcoincore.org owner like marco mentioned
12:53 < luke-jr> ryanofsky: the PPA stuff is in the same repo
12:54 < luke-jr> ryanofsky: I have a PR open for the gitian YML that submits it to Canonical, but nobody seem to care to review it
12:54 < wumpus> that's another point to simply package the gitain-built binaries; it doens't require as much maintenance or separate testing
12:54 < ryanofsky> oh, well it seems kind of important to get that merged so we can have multiple maintainers
12:54 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: It seems to be pending on the further steps we take
12:55 < luke-jr> ryanofsky: I wasn't aware anyone else was interested ;)
12:56 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: ultimately, it's a question of whether someone is trying to dictate to users how they use Core, or let them make an informed decision
12:57 < luke-jr> it'd be one thing if nobody was willing to maintain the PPA at all; it's another to try to stop someone
12:57 < wumpus> well you're maintaining it, we're definitely not able to stop you doing that
12:58 < wumpus> or even interested in doing so
12:58 < MarcoFalke> Filed an issue here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/packaging/issues/36
12:58 < luke-jr> wumpus: right, but it's also inappropriate to suddenly pretend it doesn't exist, or block users from finding it
12:59 < wumpus> the point is *if* you want 'official' recognition for it, you'll also have to have other people agree with you how to do things
12:59 < wumpus> if you do it your own way in your own ppa, fine, topic closed :)
12:59 < wumpus> #endmeeting
12:59 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 12 19:59:37 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:59 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.html
12:59 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.txt
12:59 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.log.html
12:59 < luke-jr> this is the same way it's always been, and the way these users are used to it
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12:59 < hebasto> luke-jr: what is "AIUI" you referred to? (19:40:39 UTC)
13:00 < luke-jr> As I Understand It
13:00 < hebasto> thanks ;)
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13:01 < luke-jr> wumpus: deceiving users into thinking they must switch to gitian-derived binaries that aren't tailored to their OS, is the opposite extreme from 'official' recognition
13:01 < wumpus> it's the way things were done but we realized that it was not a good idea
13:02 < wumpus> e.g. due to unique bugs in the ppa build
13:02 < luke-jr> so because you think it isn't a good idea, everyone who disagrees is censored?
13:03 < wumpus> what, do you feel censored?
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13:03 < luke-jr> wumpus: if there is an intentional effort to deceive users into not knowing they can continue to use a PPA, that seems to fit
13:03 < wumpus> you were allowed to monopolize the entire meeting
13:04 < wumpus> I don't think we could give you a bigger platform for your opinions if we wanted
13:04 < wumpus> that doesn't mean we have to agree with it
13:04 < luke-jr> meetings are between devs; I doubt many users read it
13:04 < luke-jr> well, many probably do, but many do not
13:06  * luke-jr wonders if plotting node versions over time would reveal much about how many are 'stuck' on 0.18.0
13:06 < hebasto> ryanofsky: mind looking into #17813 discussion about default configure options? Will appreciate your opinion.
13:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17813 | build: --with-gui configure option without argument should warn if Qt not found · Issue #17813 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:07 < ryanofsky> i looked briefly, it seemed like what carl suggested there was the obvious thing to do, not sure if it is difficult to implement. can comment though
13:08 < hebasto> ryanofsky: thanks!
13:09 < hebasto> ryanofsky: do you think the help string is clear?
13:11 < ryanofsky> current one from issue description seems unclear in the way you suggested
13:12 < hebasto> ok
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14:04 < BlueMatt> luke-jr: hey, sorry I missed the meeting, it totally didnt cross my mind that I'd be going through tsa during it :(
14:07 < BlueMatt> sounds like the conclusion is "needs to be gitian built, cause no one disagrees with that, but everyone feels somewhat uncomfortable with it being anything else"
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14:11 < BlueMatt> which I'm def happy with (been saying it for literally years) - are you interested in rewriting the build scripts luke-jr or is someone else gonna?
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14:35 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: I disagree with only gitian static binaries
14:35 < luke-jr> the conclusion was both options
14:35 < luke-jr> and changing bitcoin/bitcoin to a notice of some sort explaining the upgrade paths
14:35 < luke-jr> are you okay with that?
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14:56 < BlueMatt> luke-jr: the thing already says its unmaintained. I'll clarify to point out that it is not official and that those who want something more officially maintained they should followup on the packaging issue.
14:56 < BlueMatt> note that I've been complaining about the ppa for years, so this should be a surprise to no one.
14:56 < BlueMatt> and have been indicating that it needs to be gitian-binaries for years
14:57 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: PPA users will probably never even look at that page
14:58 < sipa> BlueMatt: i think one issue that isn't addressed is that plenty of existing PPA installs will never see that page
14:58 < sipa> so an idea would be to push an update that removes the binary at least, or even better, one that prints a notice
14:58 < BlueMatt> right, I dunno what to do there? I can delete the packages but anyone on recentish ubuntu releases will fail to install anyway
14:58 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: it absolutely should not be gitian binaries. That's fine as an option, but it is not a replacemnet.
14:58 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: the idea was to version bump with a text file or something
14:58 < luke-jr> (possibly deleting the installed binaries, which may be controversial?)
14:59 < BlueMatt> ubuntu 19.X will fail to install already, as well as 20.04
14:59 < BlueMatt> let me also delete the packages
14:59 < luke-jr> deleting them won't uninstall them
14:59 < BlueMatt> yes, but an os upgrde will
14:59 < BlueMatt> it warns you on upgrade and requires confirmation to continue
14:59 < luke-jr> OS upgrade probably already dropped them
15:00 < luke-jr> the issue is the ~6000 existing installs who haven't upgraded
15:00 < luke-jr> using LTS
15:01 < BlueMatt> almost all of those distros are unmaintained at the os level?
15:01 < sipa> xenial is still maintained until april 2021
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15:01 < BlueMatt> only xenaial and bionic are not
15:01 < luke-jr> even trusty is still maintained IIRC..
15:01 < sipa> trusty is in "extended security maintenance"
15:02 < luke-jr> trusty says EOL April 2022
15:02 < luke-jr> precise is extended security maint
15:02 < BlueMatt> precise is eol for "extendeds ecurity" in 2019
15:02 < luke-jr> wait no, precise is dead, but the wiki is outdated
15:02 < sipa> ESM requires registering with Ubuntu
15:03 < luke-jr> in any case, there are still people using 0.18.0, and likely from matt's ppa
15:03 < luke-jr> they shouldn't be told "switch to gitian binaries or else"; they should be made aware they can continue using system builds via the new PPA
15:03 < sipa> i suspect that some are
15:04 < sipa> luke-jr: if they trust you
15:05 < achow101> luke-jr: can you succinctly say why system libs > gitian? I highly suspect that users of the PPA won't know or really care.
15:05 < luke-jr> sipa: if they trust Canonical; again, there is nothing I can do without it being publicly visible.. but sure, a reasonable notice is fine
15:05 < luke-jr> achow101: system libs integrates better, is more RAM-efficient, and gets bugfix updates (incl security) immediately
15:06 < luke-jr> achow101: I don't know which Ubuntu version, but one has serious usability issues with gitian builds
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15:07 < BlueMatt> note that the ppa was *worse* in that regard
15:07 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: ?
15:07 < BlueMatt> though the gui issues are a bit better due to ubuntu dropping their own crap and going back to gnome
15:08 < luke-jr> only got stats for cosmic before BlueMatt deleted the pkgs, but people are still installing it since 2019-09 :x
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15:09 < BlueMatt> we cant help anyone with an outdated unmaintained ubuntu distro
15:09 < BlueMatt> launchpad doesnt even let you upload replacement dummy packages
15:10 < luke-jr> sure, but we can help people using maintained versions
15:10 < ysangkok> luke-jr: how big are the RAM savings? wouldn't it only be a few megabytes at most? very small compared to the total RAM usage
15:10 < BlueMatt> thats basically just bionic, which should go away mostly very soon
15:10 < luke-jr> ysangkok: all of Qt?
15:11 < BlueMatt> ysangkok: for reference, most "modern, hip" stuff is moving to static-linking-by-default (rust, go, i mean shit electron apps ship an entire copy of chromium for each application)
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15:11 < luke-jr> BlueMatt: which is why I advise nobody use them
15:11 < BlueMatt> but, for us, its super trivial, and allows for testing and maintinence focus, which is critical
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15:13 < ysangkok> luke-jr: bitcoin doesn't use "all of Qt". for example, my libqt5core is only 6 MB. and given that the default desktop isn't qt-based, qt may be loaded solely for bitcoin in case it is dynamically linked
15:14 < luke-jr> ysangkok: worst case scenario, it's the same as if it was static linked, yes; but best case (and likely) scenario is better
15:14 < sipa> if 6 MB is a problem, you probably shouldn't be running bitcoin core
15:15 < luke-jr> heh, true
15:15 < sipa> i agree in principle - there are advantages to dynamic libraries
15:15 < sipa> but i don't see how they weigh up against the disadvantages in this case
15:15 < luke-jr> one or two of the distros have a page explaining why it's bad to static link
15:15 < luke-jr> sipa: what disadvantage?
15:16 < sipa> luke-jr: reproducible binaries that can be compared with everyone
15:16 < sipa> being the major one
15:16 < luke-jr> there's no practical advantage to that when comparing to OS vendor built
15:16 < luke-jr> unless the OS itself is deterministic, which none are yet
15:17 < luke-jr> hmm, Debian claims static "renders some security measure less effective (ASLR for example)."
15:17 < luke-jr> is that actually true?
15:21 < sipa> i don't know
15:25 < luke-jr> I would think PIE would at least get us *some* level of ASLR
15:29 < elichai2> Haven't tested this tool yet, but if it works correctly probably other people here will find it very useful :) https://github.com/tummychow/git-absorb/blob/master/README.md 
15:29 < elichai2> (it basically automates fixing commits after review without the need to interactive rebase and fix one by one) 
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15:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18337: init: Remove boost::thread_group (master...2003-NoBoostThreadGroup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18337
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18:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #18338: wip: Fix wallet unload race condition (master...notify-shared) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18338
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19:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18337: init: Remove boost::thread_group (master...2003-NoBoostThreadGroup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18337
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19:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gzhao408 opened pull request #18339: wip [test] multiple reject reasons for test_witness_block (master...test_witness_block-multiple-reasons) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18339
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19:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e2d36639ca87...3f9e6a3c1ce8
19:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a33cffb Jon Atack: util: HelpExampleRpc formatting fixup
19:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3f9e6a3 fanquake: Merge #18316: util: HelpExampleRpc formatting
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19:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18316: util: HelpExampleRpc formatting (master...json-rpc-example-template-formatting) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18316
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20:07 < sipa> MarcoFalke: lol at your github profile picture
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20:26 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #18340: doc: mention MAKE=gmake workaround when building on a BSD (master...fixup_18129) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18340
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20:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18129: Doc: Fix BSD docs regarding gmake (master...bsddocs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18129
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21:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #16083: [WIP] transaction fees in getblock (master...201905_grt_prevout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16083
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