--- Log opened Thu Apr 30 00:00:08 2020
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01:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/36c0abd8f61b...63d5ed2fc458
01:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 182dbdf Vasil Dimov: util: Detect posix_fallocate() instead of assuming
01:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 63d5ed2 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #18437: util: Detect posix_fallocate() instead of assuming
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01:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18437: util: Detect posix_fallocate() instead of assuming (master...posix_fallocate) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18437
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02:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #18825: test: fix message for ECC_InitSanityCheck test (master...openssl_insanity) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18825
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02:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/63d5ed2fc458...35ef3c15ef82
02:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7cbfebb Pieter Wuille: Update ax_cxx_compile_stdcxx.m4
02:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0fbde48 Pieter Wuille: Support conversion between Spans of compatible types
02:17 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7829685 Pieter Wuille: Add configure option for c++17
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02:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18591: Add C++17 build to Travis (master...202004_c++17) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18591
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02:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/35ef3c15ef82...afed2e98b0e3
02:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ff6549c Chris Abrams: fix: update rest info on block size and json
02:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master afed2e9 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #18810: doc: update rest info on block size and json
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02:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18810: doc: update rest info on block size and json (master...18703) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18810
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02:46 < wumpus> I've always been sceptical toward thread_local use and wouldn't mind if it was removed, though I'm kind of surprised by the enormous performance impact
02:46 < wumpus> we don't do thread name lookups for debug messages that aren't logged do we?
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02:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] rvagg opened pull request #18826: Expose txinwitness for coinbase in JSON form from RPC (master...rvagg/txinwitness-for-coinbase) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18826
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03:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/afed2e98b0e3...64673b1037d6
03:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0644254 fanquake: validation: Add minimum witness commitment size constant
03:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 692f830 fanquake: test: add test for witness commitment index
03:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 64673b1 fanquake: Merge #18780: validation: add const for minimum witness commitment size
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03:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18780: validation: add const for minimum witness commitment size (master...minimum_witness_size) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18780
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04:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/64673b1037d6...cf5e3be5ea74
04:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 06e434d fanquake: test: fix message for ECC_InitSanityCheck test
04:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cf5e3be MarcoFalke: Merge #18825: test: fix message for ECC_InitSanityCheck test
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04:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18825: test: fix message for ECC_InitSanityCheck test (master...openssl_insanity) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18825
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04:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/cf5e3be5ea74...00c1a4d9a95e
04:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fac0cf6 MarcoFalke: rpc: Do not advertise dumptxoutset as a way to flush the chainstate
04:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 00c1a4d MarcoFalke: Merge #18809: rpc: Do not advertise dumptxoutset as a way to flush the cha...
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04:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18809: rpc: Do not advertise dumptxoutset as a way to flush the chainstate (master...2004-rpcNoFlushAdvert) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18809
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05:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic opened pull request #18827: rpc: added getrpcwhitelist method (master...getrpcwhitelist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18827
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06:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/00c1a4d9a95e...a66ba6d029b3
06:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master de8905a Gloria Zhao: test: use unittest and test_runner for test framework unit testing
06:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a66ba6d MarcoFalke: Merge #18576: test: use unittest for test_framework unit testing
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06:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18576: test: use unittest for test_framework unit testing (master...framework-unittests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18576
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06:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18828: test: Strip down previous releases boilerplate (master...2004-qaPreviousReleases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18828
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06:55 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18829: ci: Merge C++17 build with one of the existing ones (master...2004-ciSpeedupCxx17) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18829
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07:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic opened pull request #18830: rpc: add user field to getrpcinfo's json (master...getrpcinfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18830
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08:15 < luke-jr> any ideas why Travis isn't reporting running/results to BIPs PRs? It seems to actually be running, just not reporting to GitHub :/
08:19 < wumpus> could be a temporary issue with Travis, I've seen it before
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09:55 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a66ba6d029b3...ef8ef31fd28a
09:55 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3439c88 practicalswift: tests: Add fuzzing harness for CBlockPolicyEstimator
09:55 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 13c1f6b practicalswift: tests: Add fuzzing harness for IsRBFOptIn(...)
09:55 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2bcc2bd practicalswift: tests: Clarify how we avoid hitting the signed integer overflow in CFeeRat...
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09:55 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18775: tests: Add fuzzing harnesses for various classes/functions in policy/ (CBlockPolicyEstimator, IsRBFOptIn(…), etc.) (master...fuzzers-policy) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18775
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10:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18828: test: Strip down previous releases boilerplate (master...2004-qaPreviousReleases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18828
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10:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #18828: test: Strip down previous releases boilerplate (master...2004-qaPreviousReleases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18828
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10:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18781: Add templated GetRandDuration<> (master...2004-randDur) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18781
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10:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #18781: Add templated GetRandDuration<> (master...2004-randDur) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18781
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10:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18531: rpc: Assert that RPCArg names are equal to CRPCCommand ones (master...2004-rpcMan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18531
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10:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #18531: rpc: Assert that RPCArg names are equal to CRPCCommand ones (master...2004-rpcMan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18531
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11:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ef8ef31fd28a...e5b9308920a1
11:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master aaaacff MarcoFalke: ci: Merge C++17 build with one of the existing ones
11:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e5b9308 MarcoFalke: Merge #18829: ci: Merge C++17 build with one of the existing ones
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11:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18829: ci: Merge C++17 build with one of the existing ones (master...2004-ciSpeedupCxx17) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18829
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12:00 < sipa> oy
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 30 19:00:20 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
12:00 < wumpus> jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
12:00 < jonatack> hi
12:00 < MarcoFalke> hi
12:01 < wumpus> no proposed topics in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt 
12:01 < meshcollider> hi
12:01 < wumpus> any last minute suggestions?
12:01 < jnewbery> hi
12:01 < ariard> hi
12:01 < hebasto> hi
12:02 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:02 < MarcoFalke> Can I add #18699 ?
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18699 | wallet: Avoid translating RPC errors by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #18699 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < kanzure> hi
12:02 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  -> 5 blockers, 1 bug fix, 5 chasing concept ACK
12:02 < luke-jr> #18818 needs a 0.20 tag
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18818 | Fix release tarball generated by gitian by luke-jr · Pull Request #18818 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: sure
12:03 < amiti> hi
12:03 < luke-jr> at *least* the first commit there is needed - but IMO both should be fixed
12:03 < achow101> hi
12:04 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Doesn't that need to re-add the "version hack"?
12:04 < achow101> add #16946 to hi prio pls
12:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16946 | wallet: include a checksum of encrypted private keys by achow101 · Pull Request #16946 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: I don't know why the version hack was removed, but if it works in master, it should still work with these fixes I think
12:05 < sipa> what is the version hack?
12:05 < wumpus> achow101: ok
12:05 < luke-jr> sipa: for several releases, we've hand-made build.h in gitian because otherwise it would get some commit hash as the version number
12:05 < ariard> dunno if it's necessary to add to high prio, it's already hot, but just pushed #16426 last version
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16426 | Reverse cs_main, cs_wallet lock order and reduce cs_main locking by ariard · Pull Request #16426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < wumpus> fwiw I'm fine with the current tarball which is just a dumb dump of the complete git repository
12:05 < luke-jr> or -dirty added, I forget the details :/
12:05 < luke-jr> wumpus: without a leading directory..
12:05 < MarcoFalke> Looks like sipa has two pulls in high prio :eyes: NoT AllOweD!!!111
12:06 < sipa> oh?
12:06 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: oh no!!!
12:06 < sipa> oh yes
12:06 < MarcoFalke> nooooooo
12:06 < sipa> pick one
12:07 < luke-jr> wumpus: ie, if you extract it, you get the contents dumped into your current directory
12:07 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: The previous releases had the prefix? If so, it makes sense to add it back
12:07 < wumpus> luke-jr: that's kind of an unexpected change from before
12:07 < sipa> yeah, agree
12:07 < sipa> no opinion on the pre/post configure aspect
12:08 < wumpus> luke-jr: is it possible to add the prefix without going through the whole extract and repack dance again?
12:08 < luke-jr> wumpus: yes, the first commit of my PR does that
12:08 < wumpus> I was kind of happy to get rid of that
12:08 < wumpus> okay!
12:08 < wumpus> will take a look then
12:08 < jonasschnelli> hi
12:09 < luke-jr> I was also tempted to use tar --update to merely append to the git-archive tarball, but that seems dangerous considering timestamps
12:09 < wumpus> okay everything should be tagged / added to high prio
12:09 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Maybe split out the first commit into a pull, so that gitian builds can be performed on it more easily?
12:10 < hebasto> Agree ^
12:10 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: well, like I said, IMO both should be fixed - so unless there's a strong objection to distcleaning, I'd rather focus on that for now?
12:10 < luke-jr> I don't see the motivation in deviating so significantly from best practices in that regard..
12:11 < wumpus> well for what it's worth there seems to be not disagreement at all on adding the prefix so that should be straightforward even to get into rc2
12:11 < luke-jr> is there disagreement on the rest? or just people didn't feel like doing it before?
12:11 < jonatack> I wonder if it makes sense to remove #16442 until it's rebased, the longer it stays in the blockers without action, the more reviewers might be tuning it out
12:11 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16442 | Serve BIP 157 compact filters by jimpo · Pull Request #16442 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:12 < wumpus> the other change requires a unpack and configure and re-pack, I don't really like that, I was happy to just use git to create the archive
12:12 < MarcoFalke> jonatack: Yeah, generally we remove stuff that needs rebase
12:12 < wumpus> jonatack: sgtm
12:13 < sipa> if luke's PR is all it takes to get us back to post-configure (without other hacks) it seems reasonable to take it
12:13 < sipa> my impression was that we got rid of the post-configure thing because it was hard to maintain
12:13 < sipa> would that still be the case with this approach?
12:14 < MarcoFalke> Yes, the issue was that files were missing from the tar.gz
12:14 < fjahr> hi
12:15 < luke-jr> That issue remains fixed with this approach
12:15 < wumpus> it at the least makes the tarball build process more complex again, which potentially introduces bugs and inconsistencies again
12:16 < wumpus> in any case if the PR gets enough ACKS it can go in
12:17 < hebasto> split in two prs is also a way
12:17 < wumpus> at the least I hope this fixes it and we're not going to have lots of back and forth on this
12:17 < wumpus> which is the feeling I get if people talk about version hacks
12:17 < cfields> I
12:18 < cfields> I'm still having trouble understanding why this was all changed.
12:18 < wumpus> because we wanted all files in the tarball
12:19 < wumpus> and a safe way to do that is 'git archive', it doesn't accidentally include any junk files nor does it exclude anything
12:19 < luke-jr> cfields: the previous problem was that `make dist` missed a lot of files
12:19 < cfields> sure, understood.
12:19 < cfields> but now we're talking about bootstrapping and appending anyway. but we're appending anyway. We could've just bootstrapped as before and appended the git archive... the reverse of this I suppose.
12:20 < wumpus> doing the same with make dist would involve including everything in the makefile, either through wildcards or worse, through enumeration, something impossible to keep up to date
12:20 < cfields> as long as it works, I suppose.
12:20 < wumpus> yes, that' pretty much what luke-jr  does in his PR
12:21 < wumpus> let's just review that I guess
12:21 < cfields> sgtm
12:22 < ariard> luke-jr: seeing your comment https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18797#issuecomment-622008886
12:22 < ariard> I agree it's not ideal to export standardness among libconsensus and maybe we should a clear distinct libstandard
12:23 < wumpus> is that a topic?
12:23  * MarcoFalke lets do libbitcoincore
12:23 < wumpus> #topic Standardness in libconsensus
12:23 < ariard> but people on higher layers definetely need to be sure that their ttxn are going to propage on the currently deployed network
12:23 < ariard> wumpus: I should have submitted before sorry
12:23 < wumpus> ariard: np
12:23 < luke-jr> ariard: maybe stuff like c-lightning should just call RPC?
12:24 < ariard> luke-jr: you want to do this in your test framework
12:24 < ariard> and you may not have a full-node to test
12:24 < luke-jr> test frameworks can run a bitcoind
12:24 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: the problem is defining a sane interface
12:24 < wumpus> has always been; the idea to extend libconensus has been there for very long
12:24 < ariard> luke-jr: it's make integration harder
12:24 < MarcoFalke> ariard: Doesn't lightning depend on Bitcoin Core or a different full node impl anyway?
12:25 < luke-jr> ariard: well, I don't see a sane way to address user choice of policies..
12:25 < ariard> MarcoFalke: actually no, you can be connected to an electrum server but still want to verify a single-sricptpubkey
12:25 < wumpus> yes, c-lightning depends on bitcoin core (at run time, not at build time)
12:25 < luke-jr> another sane way*
12:25 < wumpus> oh did that change?
12:25 < ariard> beyond c-lightning or any LN implementation
12:25 < cfields> at the very least I think we'd want it broken out into a new function that's clearly non-consensus-trustworthy.
12:26 < ariard> cfields: yes, let's not confuse what is standard and consensus
12:26 < luke-jr> there's other utility RPCs that would make sense to export somewhere too
12:26 < sipa> i see no problem exposing a Bitcoin Core library that implements the same policies as Bitcoin Core; it's just a more convenient interface to do something you can already do with running a node
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12:26 < luke-jr> libbitcoincore isn't the best name, but I can't think of a better one XD
12:26 < MarcoFalke> lol, I was trolling
12:26 < wumpus> I don't see a problem either, just make it a different function from consensus validation
12:26 < sipa> it seems convenient to add that to bitcoinconsensus, but i agree it's confusing the name of the lib
12:27 < ariard> okay we should rename bitcoinconsenus to something different?
12:27 < MarcoFalke> ariard: is elecrum server not a full node?
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12:27 < luke-jr> I suppose we could put it in the same lib, but add a second .pc file in case we split it later..
12:27 < wumpus> no, don't rename bitcoinconsensus
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12:27 < luke-jr> otoh, do callers of these functions need consensus code at all?
12:27 < ariard> MarcoFalke: I meaned a electrum client serving as a verification backend to a LN node
12:27 < ariard> like a mobile
12:28 < ariard> you still want to verify scriptpubkey if you can even if you can't verify full set of consensus/standard ruels
12:28  * luke-jr saves the rant against people not using their own full nodes for another time
12:28 < wumpus> how do the other mobile LN wallets do that? they definitely don't all require a full node
12:28 < MarcoFalke> Why would you not use the electrum server and instead hop through the electrum client?
12:28 < ariard> luke-jr: my mobile connected to my full-node may know network outage and still need to update a channel state
12:28 < luke-jr> doesn't Lightning use very specific templates anyway?
12:29 < luke-jr> so long as the standard Lightning scripts are being used, they should all be fine, no?
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12:29 < ariard> wumpus: you may use BIP157 or any other light client protocols, even a custom one
12:29 < ariard> luke-jr: we use specific templates but witness must enforce MINIMALIF among others
12:29 < sipa> i think we're straying from the topic now
12:30 < wumpus> in any case, I'm not against adding a standard check function, just call it differently, I don't think it matters it's in libconsensus *if* you document it and name it in a clear way
12:30 < ariard> right, we do agree exporting a standard *opaque* flag? it's just a way to do it
12:30 < sipa> ariard: if you use the standard template, they are minimalif automatically?
12:30 < wumpus> no, I don't want to do it with a flag, just add a function
12:30 < wumpus> don't touch the consensus function for non-consensus checks
12:30 < ariard> sipa: don't follow there what you mean by standard template?
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12:31 < sipa> ariard: lightning uses specific scripts, no?
12:31 < sipa> bolt 03 or something
12:31 < ariard> okay so add a verify_standard function but get it in bitcoinconsensus library?
12:31 < wumpus> yes
12:31 < luke-jr> ariard: add a new .pc file too IMO
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12:31 < wumpus> doesn't seem worth it to add a new library for, but should be a separate function imo
12:32 < wumpus> luke-jr: nah, there will be so much overlap between both
12:32 < ariard> luke-jr: it may makes intgration harder, dunno who is using this right now apart of rust-bitocin ecosystem
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12:32 < luke-jr> wumpus: it's like 4 lines?
12:32 < wumpus> either the two libraries have to dpeend on each other 
12:32 < wumpus> or share code
12:32 < luke-jr> wumpus: just a new .pc, not a new lib
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12:32 < sipa> luke-jr: what is the difference?
12:33 < ariard> I think important point is document well in shared-libraries.md that it's standardness
12:33 < luke-jr> sipa: .pc is like 4 lines of text that says which linker/compiler flags to use
12:33 < luke-jr> so for now it would just -lconsensus
12:33 < luke-jr> if down the road it gets big enough to split up, we can change to -lsomethingelse
12:33 < ariard> and you may have to call verify_standard and then verify consensus only to know invalidity cause of your transaction
12:34 < wumpus> yes, the important point is to name it clearly
12:34 < luke-jr> and other stuff using it will just work
12:34 < wumpus> and document it clearly
12:34 < wumpus> no need to split it out into yet another library or mess around with .pc files IMO
12:34 < sipa> ariard: btw, bitcoin core internally also calls script verification twice to determine cause of failure (once with and once without standardness rules enabled)
12:34 < sipa> at least in some cases
12:35 < ariard> yes exactly in mempool acceptance, that what I had in mind
12:35 < sipa> that said, i'm still a bit confused why you need this
12:35 < cfields> how about just make a copy of bitcoinconsensus.cpp, make the policy changes to the new one, and maintain them in parallel? 
12:35 < cfields> That's how we always say we'll handle stuff like this, anyway :)
12:35 < sipa> heh
12:36 < luke-jr> I would assume it's a new .cpp file anyway
12:36 < ariard> sipa: you want to verify your witness builder and you may have a lot of different cases in LN
12:36 < sipa> ariard: if you follow BOLT 3, that shouldn't be needed, right?
12:37 < sipa> (i understand the use for testing, but the point of having a lightning standard seems to be that it removes the need for doing this in production)
12:38 < MarcoFalke> regtest should have all standardness flags like mainnet, so testing against regtest during development should be sufficient (haven't checked)
12:38 < MarcoFalke> testmempoolaccept in regtest
12:38 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: +1
12:39 < MarcoFalke> #15891 
12:39 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15891 | test: Require standard txs in regtest by default by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #15891 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:40 < ariard> you may also want to check in production, witness may contain input from different parties
12:40 < cfields> If we're doing a new policy function, it would be nice to return a bitfield of failed (non-fatal) checks rather than a true/false. That may require too much interpretor refactor to be safe, though.
12:40 < sipa> cfields: hard nack
12:40 < luke-jr> ariard: you shouldn't care about what the inputs are..?
12:40 < cfields> lol, that was quick.
12:41 < sipa> cfields: yeah, sorry - i feel very strongly about the fact that we absolutely should not expose all nitty details of how we implement standardness
12:41 < sipa> over time certain flags might be merged together or so
12:41 < sipa> or split up depending on conditions
12:42 < sipa> or things may get tested in different order
12:42 < sipa> so that the first failure reported changes
12:42 < luke-jr> a bitfield would require testing all even after one fails ;P
12:42 < wumpus> yes, agree with that, the problem with these kind of interfaces is that they're hard to update
12:42 < cfields> ok, fair enough.
12:43 < sipa> if we expose a way to test policy, it is a "test things against current bitcoin core policy", not a "learn about all the things that may be wrong"
12:43 < luke-jr> policy is inherently volatile, even with the same version
12:43 < luke-jr> there is no "bitcoin core policy", there is "this node's policy" :/
12:43 < ariard> yeah we shouldn't commit to policy for sure, but you're making expactations about network mempools
12:43 < luke-jr> ariard: which is something we don't have code for at all right now
12:44 < ariard> to be sure your time-sensitive tx is going to reach some miners pool
12:44 < ariard> luke-jr: yes that's an issue, have you followed thread about RBF pinning on the ml
12:44 < luke-jr> I haven't
12:45 < ariard> tl;dr: by pinning transaction in the mempool due to loosely understood RBF rules by LN people you may delay a time-senstivie tx
12:45 < ariard> and therefore steal people funds
12:45 < wumpus> which makes me doubt this a bit in the first place, this function accepting your transaction only means that one version of bitcoin core accepted it at one point, it doesn't tell you about the current network
12:45 < sipa> and can't take even your own local mempool's state into account, if you have one
12:45 < wumpus> right
12:46 < ariard> wumpus: you should test against late core version standardness, I doesn't _guarantee_  but give you confidence it's going to broadcast?
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12:46 < ariard> *it doesn't
12:47 < sipa> ariard: i'm... unconvinced
12:47 < luke-jr> considering we don't have code for what you really need, maybe this should just be an entirely new library separate from Core?
12:47 < luke-jr> perhaps even adapting on-the-fly
12:47 < sipa> ariard: there is no reason to assume that checking against script standardness rules makes anything actually harder for an attacker
12:47 < ariard> sipa: on standardness verification or documenting better mempools rules?
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12:48 < sipa> ariard: because there may be relay/validity policies that are outside script, and equally easy to attack
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12:48 < ariard> sipa: I agree it doesn't exclude all attacks vectors but you reduce surface
12:49 < sipa> ariard: my point is that this sort of approach should be used for testing (is the stuff my code produced acceptable to the network)
12:49 < sipa> but in production there is no way around querying an actual node for acceptability
12:50 < ariard> let's say an attacker can degrade acceptability of your transaction by sending you non-standard stuff
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12:50 < sipa> anyway, this is not an argument against exposing a standardness check... just be aware that its use is limited
12:50 < ariard> if you can verify this, without a full-node access, you should be able to do so
12:51 < sipa> ariard: if an attacker can just move to an equally-cheap attack you can't detect, have you gained anything?
12:51 < sipa> (if you have an argument why that is substantially harder to attack non-script stuff, you would have a point)
12:51 < ariard> sipa: I see a difference between standardness on the script and standardness on mempool acceptance
12:52 < ariard> like in RBF pinning as exposed on the ml, attacker has to commit a tx which may confirm in some block
12:52 < ariard> and so loose a fee by trying the attack
12:52 < sipa> ok, so there is an extra cost to bypassing script... that's a good argument
12:53 < luke-jr> hmm, got d/c - apparently logs did too
12:53 < luke-jr> sipa: no code we have can determine that
12:53 < luke-jr> [19:45:27] <luke-jr> considering we don't have code for what you really need, maybe this should just be an entirely new library separate from Core?
12:53 < luke-jr> [19:46:33] <luke-jr> perhaps even adapting on-the-fly
12:54 < sipa> you're welcome to write that :)
12:55 < ariard> okay so extending bitcoinconsensus with a verify_standard function for now, with a clear documentation what's its limited and how it should be used?
12:55 < ariard> and I also propose to open an issue explaining different ways an attacker may exploit standard rules and different cost between them
12:55 < ariard> like for all this weired multi-party time-sensitive cases
12:56 < luke-jr> sipa: inability to configure it is a reason not to expose it
12:56 < luke-jr> defaults should only be just defaults
12:56 < wumpus> I don't think standard rules are supposed to ever be an attack vector
12:56 < luke-jr> ariard: I still think NACK on a policy function in lib
12:56 < ariard> wumpus: but sadly they are, go through ml post
12:57 < wumpus> isn't this only a problem for 0-conf?
12:57 < sipa> you don't even need RBF etc for that; LN very inherently relies on predictability of confirmation
12:57 < ariard> luke-jr: it's just a question on how to make them practical between -testmempoolaccept and verify_standard
12:57 < luke-jr> wumpus: Lightning is all about unconf
12:58 < luke-jr> ariard: testmempoolaccept is practical ☺
12:58 < ariard> wumpus: it's more subtle you blind your counterparty to avoid them having their alternative tx timing-out some output
12:58 < luke-jr> ariard: but will never tell you network-wide policies
12:58 < wumpus> luke-jr: I thought channels were only opened once the opening transaction confirms, same for other changes
12:58 < ariard> luke-jr: if you wnat to run your test framework quicly asking for a full-node running isn't practical
12:58 < luke-jr> wumpus: yes, I thought so too
12:58 < luke-jr> wumpus: I don't really understand the practical issue
12:59 < ariard> like I'm travelling and want to be able to test without network access
12:59 < luke-jr> ariard: yes it is
12:59 < luke-jr> regtest works fine without network
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12:59 < ariard> luke-jr: it makes running test slower
12:59 < wumpus> I'm not sure you traveling without network access warrants adding a new function to libconsensus :)
12:59 < wumpus> I'm sure you could just hack something that works for yourself
13:00 < luke-jr> ariard: Bitcoin Core does testing this way; it works fine
13:00 < ariard> wumpus: yeah yeah right, it's more running test smoothly :)
13:00 < sipa> it is far less practical for an external project to write a test that needs to spin up a bitcoind
13:00 < sipa> than it is for us to spin out the thing we're testing and building ourselves
13:00 < luke-jr> sipa: why?
13:00 < sipa> come on
13:01 < luke-jr> you just use PATH instead of specifying the binary path…
13:01 < wumpus> it might be more practical than linking against bitcoin core at compile time though :)
13:01 < ariard> luke-jr: longuer dependencies chain
13:01 < luke-jr> ariard: ⁇?
13:01 < luke-jr> depending on bitcoind vs depending on libconsensus is the same chain
13:01 < wumpus> no, the depenency chains are the same in both cases, the only difference is compile time versus run time dep
13:01 < wumpus> yes
13:01 < ariard> luke-jr: you're asking people developping and testing higher stuff to have a full setup bitcoin env
13:01 < wumpus> we need to wrap up the meeting btw
13:01 < jonatack> fwit the latest optech provides a summary of the ml discussion at https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2020/04/29/#news
13:02 < jonatack> fwiw*
13:02 < wumpus> ariard: if regtest is enough, that's set up in a second or so
13:02 < ariard> right let's wrap-up we can keep conversation on PR
13:02 < wumpus> jonatack: thanks
13:02 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:02 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr 30 20:02:32 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:02 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-04-30-19.00.html
13:02 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-04-30-19.00.txt
13:02 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-04-30-19.00.log.html
13:02 < luke-jr> ariard: 1) regtest doesn't need any special setup; 2) I would expect every developer to have a full setup Bitcoin env anyway
13:03 < luke-jr> I mean, if you really want to, you *could* just copy Bitcoin Core's test suite…
13:03 < sipa> this reminds me of gpg insisting to not having a library because they needed to control pinning of stuff in memory, which IMO led to how terrible gpg integration in everything is
13:03 < sipa> (that's not the only reason, to be clear)
13:03 < luke-jr> sipa: I'm not sure that's a fair comparison
13:04 < ariard> luke-jr: but at the end doing the RPC call, it's just slower to run a test suite
13:04 < luke-jr> he's using code for something it isn't intended to be used for, in a test-only environment..
13:05 < luke-jr> ariard: premature optimisation
13:05 < sipa> for development, having an API for something is so much more practical than needing all kinds of logistical mess to spin up binaries and whatnot
13:05 < sipa> for some things, that's inevitable going to be needed anyway
13:05 < sipa> but not everything
13:05 < luke-jr> sipa: it's for testing though, not development
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13:05 < sipa> what's the difference?
13:05 < luke-jr> he already needs to spin up lightningd presumably
13:06 < luke-jr> which itself also uses RPC
13:06 < ariard> luke-jr: no need to spin up lightningd, some test framework aren't using an external process at all (Rust-Lightning do so)
13:06 < jnewbery> Does anyone know if GETBLOCKS is used by anything on the network? I've checked getpeerinfo on my node and I haven't received any
13:07 < jnewbery> and more specifically, is anything using the GETBLOCKS hashContinue method for initial sync?
13:07 < jnewbery> Is it even possible to IBD using a pre-headers-sync node?
13:07 < luke-jr> jnewbery: why wouldn't it be?
13:07 < sipa> yes, you can sync using pre-headers-sync; bitmex tested this a few months ago even i think
13:07 < phantomcircuit> jnewbery, it's of course possible to sync pre-headers
13:08 < MarcoFalke> We should add a test for that
13:08 < sipa> jnewbery: hashcontinue is essential to getblocks-based sync
13:08 < sipa> MarcoFalke: yes
13:08 < BlueMatt> oh missed that whole conversation, yea, I dont think we can avoid exporting standard script verification flags
13:08 < BlueMatt> sadly its really critical
13:08 < wumpus> I have one peer that sent getblocks, it identifies as /Satoshi:0.14.0/ (no idea if it really is)
13:09 < BlueMatt> to, like, any real bitcoin use where you want to verify that something will be accepted, which is, largely, the point of libbitcoinconsensus as it exists today (given it cant do full verification)
13:09 < BlueMatt> and, really, I think we may be the only users of libbitcoinconsensus lol
13:09 < luke-jr> we don't use it..
13:09 < luke-jr> or you mean c-lightning "we"?
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13:09 < ariard> we, Rust-Bitcoin ecosystem
13:09 < BlueMatt> I have no idea what c-lightning does
13:10 < wumpus> probably not as it's the only message ever sent besides pong and version/verack :)
13:10 < sipa> wumpus: 138.197.142.142 ?
13:10 < ariard> they export some part of consensus code directly in their codebase last time I ccheck
13:10 < luke-jr> one of my servers has 4 peers using getblocks
13:10 < luke-jr>  /bcoin:2.0.0-dev/
13:10 < wumpus> sipa: no, 167.172.51.113
13:10 < sipa> wumpus: looks like a spy node
13:11 < sipa> interesting
13:11 < luke-jr>  /Satoshi:0.14.0/ 138.197.142.142:33310
13:11 < sipa> mine is also a claimed 0.14.0 that has only sent getblocks/pong/verack/version
13:12 < jnewbery> 0.14 that sent only getblocks and pong is clearly a spy
13:12 < sipa> bcoin uses getblocks i think, or at least did until recently
13:12 < luke-jr> both of these peers have 2 entries in getpeerinfo for some reason
13:13 < jnewbery> luke-jr: how does that happen?
13:13 < luke-jr> the bcoin peer has used: addr, getblocks, getdata, headers, inv, ping, pong, reject, sendcmpct, tx, verack, version
13:13 < luke-jr> jnewbery: dunno, 2 connections maybe?
13:13 < luke-jr> different ports on the other side
13:14 < jnewbery> here's the bitmex IBD blog post btw: https://blog.bitmex.com/bitcoins-initial-block-download/
13:15 < luke-jr> gotta run
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13:16 < jonatack> jnewbery: if this is an indicator, I'm not seeing any either... bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | grep 'getblocks' | sort
13:21 < jnewbery> jonatack: thanks
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13:25 < jnewbery> bcoin has supported getheaders since version 1 (implemented in 2016: https://github.com/bcoin-org/bcoin/commit/484b1f281705a7d6ebcd9a8532b7b577b9c21ab5)
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13:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #18639: Prevent consecutive ::cs_main locks (master...200414-locks) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18639
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13:58 < elichai2> I'm trying to add OSX to libsecp travis and it complains on bash syntax which is perfectly valid(in linux hehe), if anyone here has Mac-OS and is free to help me debug it then I'd appreciate it :) 
13:58 < elichai2> (or if there's some service that gives me shell access to OSX)
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14:00 < sipa> elichai2: bash implements more than POSIX shell requires
14:01 < elichai2> sipa: can I just get bash on OSX?
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14:02 < sipa> elichai2: no clue
14:02 < elichai2> thanks, I'll try that avenue in travis :)
14:02 < sipa> (i believe it's called macOS now)
14:03 < achow101> anyone want to send me a new blank wallet that was created on a big endian arch? I'm digging into some BDB disk format stuff and want to check if it's arch independent
14:03 < elichai2> So it seems that macOS(:P) does use bash, but bash 3.2, while most linux dists out there use 5+
14:03 < elichai2> achow101: sounds cool :)
14:03 < elichai2> ping luke-jr 
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15:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #18836: Upgradewallet tests (master...upgradewallet-tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18836
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15:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18828: test: Strip down previous releases boilerplate (master...2004-qaPreviousReleases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18828
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15:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #18828: test: Strip down previous releases boilerplate (master...2004-qaPreviousReleases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18828
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15:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18781: Add templated GetRandDuration<> (master...2004-randDur) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18781
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15:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #18781: Add templated GetRandDuration<> (master...2004-randDur) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18781
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15:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18531: rpc: Assert that RPCArg names are equal to CRPCCommand ones (master...2004-rpcMan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18531
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15:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #18531: rpc: Assert that RPCArg names are equal to CRPCCommand ones (master...2004-rpcMan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18531
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15:58 < fanquake> wumpus sipa: can you block shahramkha
16:00 < fanquake> elichai2: macOS is deprecating bash as it’s login shell. Your best bet is just installing it via brew, as that will also be up to date
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18:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kadri117 opened pull request #18837: Bitzeny wallet not working, why ? (master...z1.1.x) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18837
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18:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18837: Bitzeny wallet not working, why ? (master...z1.1.x) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18837
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18:17 < cfields> elichai2: configure is intended to be shell-agnostic, any bashism is a bug.
18:17 < cfields> (secp's configure too)
18:18 < cfields> I'll see if I can reproduce that on 10.14.
18:20 < cfields> there might be several of those bugs, though :p
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18:39 < luke-jr> elichai2: ?
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18:57 < luke-jr> checkbashisms sees nothing wrong with libsecp256k1 configure
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18:58 < luke-jr> but TIL that POSIX regex expects [!a-z] instead of [^a-z]
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19:04 < sipa> TIL as well
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22:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Nishikoh opened pull request #18838: test: Check header hash in wait_for_getheaders (master...fix-wait_for_getheaders) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18838
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--- Log closed Fri May 01 00:00:08 2020