--- Log opened Fri May 08 00:00:18 2020
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00:58 < jonasschnelli> jonatack really strange the fuzz crash you get with the v2 deserializer
00:59 < jonasschnelli> GetMessage() sets m_raw_message_size to header_size + msg.m_message_size,... which a few lines later gets tested through assert(msg.m_raw_message_size == header_size + msg.m_message_size); (which fails)
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01:11 < jb55> smells like memory corruption
01:11 < jonasschnelli> jonatack: found the issue revealed by the fuzzer 
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01:54 < jonasschnelli> sipa: do you think it is a problem to not MAC the length in the V2 BIP324 protocol? See comment: https://gist.github.com/jonasschnelli/c530ea8421b8d0e80c51486325587c52#gistcomment-3295536
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02:35 < jonatack> jonasschnelli: nice!
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02:36 < jonatack> will re-review
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02:36 < sipa> jonasschnelli: i need to think about that; i hoped we could avoid these concerns by copying an existing construction :)
02:41 < jonasschnelli> me two...
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04:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18914: refactor: Apply override specifier consistently (master...200508-override) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18914
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06:44 < dfmb_> Hi im a noob, just wondering who decides which updates to deploy on bitcoin code? Letś say I make a pull request on the bitcoin github who decides that udpate is valid or it isn't ?
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06:51 < belcher> dfmb_ thats a common question, have a read of this https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitcoin-core-/
06:51 < belcher> focusing on the github is a bit of a misdirection IMO, there have been situations in the past where the github code said one thing but users in practice ran some other code
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07:03 < dfmb_> got it, thnks!
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08:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f54753293fe7...3930014abcdd
08:25 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 89a28e0 Sjors Provoost: [test] add v0.16.3 backwards compatibility test
08:25 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9c246b8 Sjors Provoost: [test] backwards compatibility: bump v0.19.0.1 to v0.19.1
08:25 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d135c29 Sjors Provoost: [ci] make list of previous releases to download a setting
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08:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18864: Add v0.16.3 backwards compatibility test, bump v0.19.0.1 to v0.19.1 (master...2020/05/backwards_compat) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18864
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09:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3930014abcdd...5b24f6084ede
09:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 23b9fa2 Hennadii Stepanov: gui: Add detailed text to BitcoinGUI::message
09:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 917ca93 Hennadii Stepanov: Make ThreadSafe{MessageBox|Question} bilingual
09:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7e923d4 Hennadii Stepanov: Make InitError bilingual
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09:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16224: gui: Bilingual GUI error messages (master...20190617-bilingual-errors) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16224
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09:21 < hebasto> \o/
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11:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic opened pull request #18917: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer (master...fix-system-fuzzer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18917
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12:00 < meshcollider> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Fri May  8 19:00:27 2020 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < provoostenator> hi
12:00 < jonatack> hi
12:00 < meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball ariard digi_james amiti fjahr 
12:00 < meshcollider> jeremyrubin emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
12:00 < achow101> hi
12:01 < meshcollider> The main topic we have to discuss this week is the wallet DB
12:02 < meshcollider> #topic wallet DB (achow101)
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12:02 < meshcollider> There was a bit of discussion earlier in the week already
12:02 < jnewbery> hi
12:02 < fjahr> hi
12:04 < achow101> yes
12:04 < meshcollider> http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2020-05-05.html
12:04 < jonatack> http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2020-05-05.html#l-100
12:05 < achow101> Also #18916
12:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18916 | Sqlite wallet storage · Issue #18916 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < achow101> (and probably 5 or so old issues and PRs)
12:06 < provoostenator> Is there any reason why descriptor wallets are special when it comes to introducing new storage?
12:06 < achow101> I'd like to move us off of BDB to something else. What that something else is, we can 
12:06 < achow101> *we can discuss later
12:07 < achow101> I wanted to do this specifically for descriptor wallets because descriptor wallets are a wholly new thing so it made logical sense to me to introduce another wholly new thing with the descriptor wallets
12:07 < achow101> since it's already backwards incompatible anyways
12:08 < meshcollider> provoostenator: that's what the bulk of the discussion with sipa a few days ago was, he believes it's entirely orthogonal
12:08 < provoostenator> True, assuming it's something we can get merge-ready before 0.21
12:08 < achow101> then we can ditch bdb whenever we ditch legacy wallets
12:08 < jonatack> iirc the conclusion of that discussion was that descriptor wallets and the DB ought to be orthogonal concerns?
12:08 < achow101> jonatack: yes
12:08 < meshcollider> Exactly, it has to be 0.21 if it's going to be a descriptor wallet thing
12:09 < achow101> I think the conclusion of that discussion was implement it agnostic of the wallet type since it is orthogonal
12:09 < provoostenator> They are orthogonal, but it's nice to have if we can do these things at the same time.
12:09 < achow101> then later we can restrict it to descriptor wallets if we get it in fast enough
12:09 < luke-jr> a long time ago, we wanted to move to an append-only wallet file format
12:09 < sipa> i think it should be developed as orthogonal - the way it's exposed to users can be to require sqlite wallets for descriptor wallets if it's ready for 0.21, and otherwise it should remain orthogonal
12:09 < sipa> luke-jr: i'm aware :)
12:09 < provoostenator> sipa: that makes sense
12:10 < meshcollider> yep
12:10 < achow101> luke-jr: I actually don't think append only makes a ton of sense for us anymore. we're constantly updating and rewriting records
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12:11 < achow101> e.g. CHDChain is updated for every single new key
12:11 < achow101> (in legacy wallets)
12:11 < jnewbery> 'require sqlite wallets for descriptor wallets' seems like it could be a really nice thing. (I haven't read the previous discussion)
12:11 < sipa> but it's kind of reinventing the wheel - sqlite is overkill, but it's (in my understanding) very well tested and does what we'd need; probably with more assurances than what a self-developed solution can provide at the levels of effort we'd be willing to put into it
12:11 < luke-jr> achow101: does it need to be?
12:12 < sipa> achow101: that's not really relevant; an append-only format would still compact whenever too many records are rewritten
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12:12 < luke-jr> achow101: abstractly, we don't need to be rewriting often
12:12 < luke-jr> do we know how good sqlite's compatibility guarantees are? or are we just going to end up int he same place soon?
12:13 < luke-jr> can an old sqlite open a new sqlite db?
12:13 < achow101> luke-jr: i think so? regardless, I'd also like to not touch application level stuff, just the blob storage to keep things simple
12:13 < provoostenator> It can be run in javascript :-)
12:13 < sipa> luke-jr: yes
12:13 < sipa> achow101: we're still rewriting very infrequently compared to everything stored in the file, so i think the approach of an append-only format that gets occasionally compacted makes perfect sense
12:13 < achow101> luke-jr: sqlite promises that compatibility will be maintained to at least 2050 or something like that. and everything is public domain
12:13 < gwillen> I think sqlite is approximately the most-tested piece of software in existence
12:13 < gwillen> outside of extremely specialized things like the space shuttle
12:14 < luke-jr> achow101: everything is open source in bdb4/5 too
12:14 < achow101> luke-jr: public domain meaning no license attached
12:14 < luke-jr> achow101: that's a bad thing, not a good one :P
12:14 < achow101> how so? it means that we won't have them move to agpl like bdb did
12:15 < luke-jr> achow101: they can move to AGPL just as easily as BDB did. But it's bad because PD isn't legal in some places
12:15 < sipa> achow101: it's just whether we're willing to put effort into building and maintaining a new format just to avoid some of the complexity of sqlite
12:15 < sipa> (which i think isn't worth it today)
12:15 < achow101> From their website: "The SQLite file format is stable, cross-platform, and backwards compatible and the developers pledge to keep it that way through at least the year 2050." and "SQLite source code is in the public-domain and is free to everyone to use for any purpose."
12:15 < luke-jr> tbh maintaining bdb is probably easier than maintaining sqlite
12:15 < gwillen> I have never heard a credible lawyer claim that PD is "not legal"
12:15 < provoostenator> luke-jr: is it illegal in places where Bitcoin is legal?
12:15 < gwillen> in any jurisdiction
12:15 < gwillen> I have heard some people who are not lawyers claim that
12:15 < luke-jr> achow101: it's forward-compatible that is the concern
12:16 < luke-jr> provoostenator: no idea
12:16 < gwillen> my impression is that they are mostly confused
12:16 < sipa> https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html
12:16 < sipa> read that
12:17 < provoostenator> How far do we need to be forward-compatible? The purpose of that is to make it easier to downgrade from a bad soft fork or bug, right?
12:17 < provoostenator> Not to downgrade all the way to 0.1
12:19 < sipa> if existing use is any evidence, there are tons of applications using sqlite for application-level storage like we do - but those who are using bdb seems to be mostly old software that's moving away from it (slapd to lmdb, subversion to fsfs, ...)
12:20 < luke-jr> sipa: but how many that support downgrading?
12:20 < achow101> provoostenator: at the very least, within the versions that are still maintained
12:20 < sipa> luke-jr: bdb is terrible at forward compatibility, i don't understand
12:20 < luke-jr> sipa: yes, I'm just not sure sqlite improves on this
12:20 < gwillen> btw here is the paper that tested a bunch of database engines for whether they misuse filesystem APIs in ways that make them vulnerable to data loss
12:20 < provoostenator> Right, so that means we have to have a careful upgrade policy for the sqlite dependency, that's documented somewhere
12:21 < gwillen> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/osdi14/osdi14-paper-pillai.pdf
12:21 < luke-jr> and while bdb might be maintainable, sqlite is a lot more complex
12:21 < ryanofsky> should be aware most of the work involved in this is just abstracting the existing code. if it's just a key value store and you want to swap out sqlite for lukedb that should be pretty easy
12:21 < gwillen> sqlite in write-ahead-logging mode is literally the only one that passed
12:21 < luke-jr> and AFAIK we don't gain anything from sqlite's complexity
12:21 < sipa> luke-jr: sqlite is a single cpp file if you want
12:21 < sipa> it couldn't be more simple
12:21 < gwillen> leveldb failed, they did not test bdb unfortunately
12:21 < luke-jr> sipa: shoving everything into a single file doesn't impress me?
12:21 < achow101> luke-jr: i'd like to make use of sqlite's complexity with actual tables and columns, just not initially
12:21 < sipa> luke-jr: then use the library
12:21 < luke-jr> sipa: not the point
12:22 < sipa> then i don't understand your point
12:22 < sipa> bdb is a maintenance nightmare in my impression
12:22 < jnewbery> I think it's kinda weird that we claim forward-compatibility. We don't have any tests for it, and I can't imagine anyone cares, except for (maybe) downgrading one version.
12:22 < luke-jr> my main point is we gain nothing by moving to sqlite afaik
12:22 < gwillen> luke-jr: did you read the paper I linked
12:22 < meshcollider> Yes the existing code needs a significant tidy-up to abstract before a new db can be introduced, that's something achow101 messaged me about yesterday, it's going to be quite a difficult job 
12:22 < sipa> sqlite explicitly has compatibility as a design goal
12:23 < luke-jr> gwillen: no; in practice, we have bdb working today
12:23 < gwillen> sqlite is the only database engine that actually passes tests of correctness for safely storing data on disk
12:23 < sipa> for bdb it seems like an afterthought that's effectively only achieved by it being abandoned
12:23 < gwillen> this is because sqlite is the most tested piece of software in existence
12:23 < provoostenator> jnewbery: we do have tests for it, as of recently: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/test/functional/feature_backwards_compatibility.py#L221
12:23 < gwillen> (admitting, again, that bdb was not included in the list tested, but I would be shocked if it managed to pass)
12:24 < provoostenator> That test loads master branch wallets all the back to 0.17
12:24 < provoostenator> (as in, it opens them using the 0.17 binary)
12:24 < achow101> luke-jr: we currently have a ton of hacks to make bdb consistent and not corrupt itself. I think sqlite gives us better guarantees of that. additionally it doesn't have persistent log files like bdb, everything is mostly self contained within a single file with the exception being active writes
12:25 < sipa> bdb also has a ton of complexity we don't use, though of a different nature than sqlite; it is designed for multi-process applications accessing the same database simultaneously, with locking, synchronization, ... overhead
12:25 < provoostenator> Doesn't BlueMatt_ have a Rust database?
12:25 < sipa> achow101: sqlite has a write log
12:25 < luke-jr> sipa: so does sqlite..>?
12:25 < jnewbery> ok, but I still claim my second statement is true. Literally nobody wants to run a v0.20 wallet on v0.17 software.
12:25 < achow101> sipa: it cleans up the journal when everything is flushed
12:25 < sipa> luke-jr: no, sqlite is single-process
12:25 < luke-jr> jnewbery: I might.
12:25 < sipa> achow101: of course
12:25 < luke-jr> jnewbery: I'm still using 0.13 for my real wallet
12:26 < luke-jr> sipa: but you can use sqlite from multiple programs on the same db IIRC
12:26 < jnewbery> then still use it. But the expectation that you can take that wallet, load it in master, do something with it and then reload it in 0.13 is unrealistic
12:26 < sipa> luke-jr: not simultaneously
12:26 < achow101> sipa: there's an option for that. but it's not relevant to us
12:26 < luke-jr> jnewbery: it works today, so clearly not unrealistic..
12:26 < sipa> ah
12:26 < sipa> maybe i'm wrong
12:27 < meshcollider> If someone is still using 0.13, they probably *won't* ever edit it in master, that's probably the point
12:27 < provoostenator> We also have wallet-tool now, so we could make it easier to dump wallets into a more universal text based format
12:27 < achow101> luke-jr: I think you might be an edge case
12:27 < meshcollider> A few versions of forward compatibility seems fine
12:27 < provoostenator> And then you can use older versions to import from that text format
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12:27 < sipa> as long as achow101 doesn't go through with his start-using-table-features, a trivial dump+load with command-line tools would always be possible to convert between bdb and sqlite even
12:27 < gwillen> I am surprised to learn that forward-compatibility exists, isn't there a minimum version field in the wallet that gets rolled forward sometimes?
12:28 < gwillen> does that only happen if you actively use a new feature?
12:28 < achow101> gwillen: only with explicity upgrades
12:28 < luke-jr> gwillen: only when the user requests it
12:28 < sipa> gwillen: only when you explicitly use -upgradewallet
12:28 < sipa> or the RPC now
12:28 < jnewbery> luke-jr: is your opposition to this because it makes it more difficult to maintain bitcoin knots if the dependencies in bitcoin core change?
12:28 < luke-jr> jnewbery: no
12:28 < provoostenator> It's just something we have to take into account early on, making sure dumpwallet  can dump descriptor wallets.
12:29 < luke-jr> jnewbery: I just don't see the benefit, and it seems quite possible we end up in a worse situation
12:29 < sipa> you don't think there is a downside to being effectively locked with abandoned software?
12:29 < luke-jr> no? that's just stability
12:30 < provoostenator> I'm not familiar enough with the code differences between sqlite and bdb, but it seems like sqlite is alive.
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12:30 < provoostenator> And we can't jump to BDB 18
12:30 < jonatack> it sounds like there is rough consensus to look into eventually moving to sqlite 
12:30 < luke-jr> provoostenator: alive-ness seems like a negative here
12:30 < sipa> luke-jr: ...
12:30 < meshcollider> We would have to keep the bdb support for the long term anyway
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12:30 < luke-jr> for a wallet store, stability is needed, not constant change
12:30 < achow101> at the very least, I think it would be good to move forward with refactoring and cleaning up the existing db storage code
12:30 < sipa> format stability yes, which sqlite has
12:30 < meshcollider> ^
12:30 < provoostenator> Non-deadness is good, too much change is bad.
12:31 < achow101> in such a way that adding *some other* db in the end can be done more easily
12:31 < achow101> whether that's sqlite, logdb, or something else
12:31 < ryanofsky> what is dead may never die
12:31 < luke-jr> sipa: backwards-compatible is not forwards-compatible
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12:31 < luke-jr> achow101: certainly
12:31 < meshcollider> I don't think anyone can complain about just a code cleanup in advance of a db introduction
12:31 < jonatack> ^
12:31 < provoostenator> Forwards compatilibyt isn't a big deal if we have a canonical dump format.
12:32 < sipa> provoostenator: we don't have a canonical dump format, but we don't need one
12:32 < sipa> csv works great
12:32 < sipa> it's a key-value store ffs
12:32 < achow101> luke-jr: sqlite has a table of format changes: https://sqlite.org/formatchng.html and it looks like the latest format hasn't changed
12:32 < provoostenator> sipa: csv is fine by me
12:32 < sipa> sqlite3 is btw what everything uses
12:33 < luke-jr> achow101: ok, so that table seems to prove my point
12:33 < luke-jr> what if we switch to sqlite3, and sqlite4 completely breaks compatibility?
12:33 < gwillen> luke-jr: your point is that sqlite has not changed its format in 16 years, since before bitcoin was invented?
12:33 < luke-jr> "The new file format is very different and is completely incompatible with the version 2 file format."
12:33 < gwillen> and has a direct statement that it will never do so again?
12:33 < gwillen> that point?
12:33 < sipa> sqlite3 was released in 2004
12:33 < provoostenator> "In other words, since 2004 all SQLite releases have been backwards compatible, though not necessarily forwards compatible."
12:33 < achow101> luke-jr: they had a sqlite4. it was killed
12:34 < provoostenator> Which means we need to be able to dump (into a CSV )to compensate for  lack of forwards compatibility.
12:34 < meshcollider> If we just use basic features, like we do in BDB, there's even less of a chance of breaking forwards compatibility
12:34 < provoostenator> But upgrading should be fine.
12:34 < luke-jr> " Since 2004, there have been enhancements to SQLite such that newer database files are unreadable by older versions of the SQLite library." ☹
12:34 < sipa> provoostenator: that's more relevant, but i believe it's only when you use database features that were introduced later
12:34 < gwillen> I believe when you create an sqlite database file you can specify the file version
12:34 < sipa> luke-jr: and the same is true for bdb 4.8, bdb 6, ...
12:34 < sipa> luke-jr: what is your point?
12:34 < achow101> provoostenator: I believe they have a minversion type thing like we do, but it's for new features that you have to explicitly use
12:35 < gwillen> so if you don't desire to use features that were added after 2004, you just set your file version to 2004
12:35 < luke-jr> sipa: my point is we don't want to get stuck with sqlite3.31
12:35 < sipa> if you think sticking to bdb 4.8 is fine, then sticking to sqlite 3.whatever it is now is also fine
12:35 < gwillen> then you can read or write it with any versiono of sqlite that exists
12:35 < luke-jr> due to sqlite's activity, there is a lot more pressure to drop old verisons
12:35 < sipa> luke-jr: but being stuck with bdb 4.8 is fine?
12:35 < luke-jr> yes, bdb is dead
12:35 < meshcollider> Anyway, achow101 did mention at the start that we can decide on the choice of db later
12:35 < sipa> if it being dead is fine, then you can treat sqlite as dead too
12:36 < sipa> i really don't comprehend your argument
12:36 < luke-jr> you can't, because it isn't
12:36 < luke-jr> distros will continue updating it
12:36 < meshcollider> Is there anything else you want to discuss achow101, about the code abstraction or anything?
12:36 < provoostenator> The idea was to include the source, right?
12:36 < luke-jr> definitely NACK
12:36 < sipa> provoostenator: i'm not sure that's a necessary
12:36 < achow101> if anyone wants to read about the mess that is our loading code and what I would like to change: https://gist.github.com/achow101/cda3ea1bb07f585e56caaf969e842188
12:37 < provoostenator> If we rely on distros then you can't pretend it's dead.
12:37 < achow101> so the next point of possible contention is where to put salvagewallet because that needs to be moved out of loading code
12:37 < achow101> I think i'll just dump it into wallettool for now
12:38 < jnewbery> achow101: +1
12:38 < achow101> and another thing to discuss: whether we still want to support the old multiwallet method where you renamed the wallet.dat file. so multiple wallets were in the same dbenv
12:38 < sipa> that makes sense
12:39 < achow101> I think we have to remove that support otherwise it will get in the way of the abstraction
12:39 < jnewbery> achow101: is there a migration path? A way to move separate wallets into their own directories on load?
12:40 < luke-jr> no need to rename, just -wallet=foo.dat
12:41 < ryanofsky> jnewbery: it is possible to move them manually, wallet-tool could also be extended to help with this, but I think automatic migration would be the best
12:41 < achow101> jnewbery: use your preferred file explorer and move some wallet file?
12:41 < ryanofsky> or maybe not, automatic migration might cause problems if people are doing automated backups of existing files
12:41 < achow101> I would not go with automatic migration
12:42 < achow101> what i've done currently is to give a very verbose warning about what you have to do manually
12:42 < achow101> s/warning/error
12:43 < ryanofsky> i don't think it should actually be that big of a deal to keep supporting them either, but I can see why you don't want to do that
12:43 < jnewbery> giving manual instructions for something the user will only ever need to do once seems reasonable
12:43 < ryanofsky> +1
12:43 < provoostenator> As long as the GUI offers a "wizard" for that?
12:43 < jnewbery> presumably users that have configured multi-wallet are fairly advanced and can handle moving files into a directory
12:44 < provoostenator> I would say RPC users should be able to use "mv"
12:44 < achow101> I think any user still using that behavior had to got into multiwallet very early on where you had to set startup options. so presumably they know what they're doing
12:44 < ryanofsky> jnewbery, it means they started bitcoin at some point with a -wallet=something command line argument, but maybe that is advanced enough
12:44 < jnewbery> provoostenator: I don't think it's necessary, and the development/testing overhead to get right that maybe a few hundred(?) people will only use once seems disproportionate.
12:44 < meshcollider> At least those who made them before the multiwallet GUI create dialog
12:44 < meshcollider> Which is well after separate directories was introduced
12:44 < achow101> i think it predates the createwallet rpc?
12:45 < ryanofsky> yes, predates the rpcs and gui stuff iirc
12:45 < provoostenator> Oh ok, if it doesn't affect  single wallet users, and only effects multi-wallet users before the GUI supported that, it's fine.
12:46 < meshcollider> Nice write-up btw achow101
12:46 < ryanofsky> it affects single wallet users who used -wallet option prior to multiwallet support too, but maybe they are even less of a concerns
12:48 < luke-jr> does moving just wallet.dat work, or is some magic needed with the database/ dir?
12:48 < luke-jr> I guess backupwallet is always an option
12:48 < achow101> luke-jr: as long as everything was shut down cleanly, just moving the wallet.dat will work
12:48 < ryanofsky> you just need to create a directory with a "wallet.dat" file, assuming there are no old logs
12:49 < ryanofsky> if there are logs in the directory, they are shared between all the wallet files in the directory, so there is some risk of data loss if you don't copy them too
12:50 < luke-jr> [19:32:05] <sipa> provoostenator: we don't have a canonical dump format, but we don't need one <-- btw, there is the dumpwallet RPC
12:50 < luke-jr> which is a mess IMO
12:50 < sipa> dumpwallet does not achieve that at all
12:50 < ryanofsky> just looked up, #1889 is the pr that introduce the -wallet option for wallets with custom names
12:50 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1889 | let user select wallet file with -wallet=foo.dat by tcatm · Pull Request #1889 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:50 < provoostenator> luke-jr: yes, but dumpwallet is dsiabled for desciptor wallets, and needs to be redone properly anyway
12:51 < sipa> it dumps private keys, and a few other things - it does not dump all the wallet data that lets you recreate the same wallet again
12:51 < provoostenator> But that should be doable
12:51 < jnewbery> My opinion on forward/backward wallet compatibility is that we should support 2 versions in either direction, and make sure that we have 100% test coverage of all features. The fact that we have code like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/5b24f6084ede92d0f493ff416b4726245140b2c1/src/wallet/walletdb.cpp#L284 which is supposed to support some wallet quirk in 2012 that isn't tested and 
12:51 < luke-jr> sipa: there's a paired loadwallet too; it just isn't lossless
12:51 < jnewbery> probably wasn't even in an actual release is crazy.
12:51 < provoostenator> The reverse of that new dumpwallet just needs to be smart enough to ignore stuff it doesn't know.
12:52 < achow101> provoostenator: we already have importwallet to do the inverse of dumpwallet
12:52 < sipa> luke-jr: i'm aware, i think i wrote it
12:52 < achow101> I think both need changes
12:53 < sipa> agree
12:53 < luke-jr> jnewbery: 3.16.0 it says?
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12:53 < luke-jr> if we were sticking to bdb, we could just tell people to use db4.8dump or whatever XD
12:55 < meshcollider> Ok last 5 mins, anything else anyone wanted to discuss?
12:55 < jonatack> achow101: that is a really helpful writeup
12:56 < jonatack> meshcollider: blockers/high-priority?
12:56 < meshcollider> Any changes for high priority? Probably covered yesterday
12:57 < achow101> i'd just like to review beg for both #16946 and #17681
12:57 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16946 | wallet: include a checksum of encrypted private keys by achow101 · Pull Request #16946 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:57 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17681 | wallet: Keep inactive seeds after sethdseed and derive keys from them as needed by achow101 · Pull Request #17681 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:57 < provoostenator> People are always welcome to play with #16549
12:57 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16549 | UI external signer support (e.g. hardware wallet) by Sjors · Pull Request #16549 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:57 < provoostenator> (draft, not high priority)
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12:58 < meshcollider> Alright, thanks everyone for the discussion :)
12:58 < jnewbery> achow101: we're going to cover 17681 in review club next wednesday (ryanofsky hosting). It'd be great if you could join us
12:58 < meshcollider> #endmeeting
12:58 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri May  8 19:58:47 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:58 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-05-08-19.00.html
12:58 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-05-08-19.00.txt
12:58 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-05-08-19.00.log.html
12:59 < achow101> jnewbery: I'll try to remember to join
12:59 < jonatack> will look at those PRs. #18594 if anyone interested is pretty far along.
12:59 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18594 | cli: display multiwallet balances in -getinfo by jonatack · Pull Request #18594 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:59 < jnewbery> achow101: I'll ping ya
12:59 < jonatack> it's the client-side version
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13:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic closed pull request #18908: util: raise a deadly signal in system.cpp fuzzer (master...fuzz-ub-argsmanager) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18908
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13:11 < jnewbery> Does anyone know what this failure in appveyor means: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/builds/32747418 ? I tried rerunning and it's happened twice in a row
13:16 < sipa> where is _ defined?
13:16 < sipa> it's kinda hard to grep for
13:17 < sipa> oh, got it
13:17 < sipa> util/translation.h
13:17 < sipa> i'm confused why this code compiles at all (outside of appveyor)
13:17 < sipa> oh no
13:18 < sipa> _ returns a bilingual_string, InitError takes a bilingual string... why is appveyor complaining that it's being passed an std::string?
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13:28 < jnewbery> I'm going to try rebasing on master. There were changes merged in #16224, but I don't see why that should affect my branch
13:28 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16224 | gui: Bilingual GUI error messages by hebasto · Pull Request #16224 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:29 < sipa> ah, i was just checking master
13:30 < jnewbery> I have to say that fighting against our CIs is really painful. It seems like that's where I've spent most of my time for this PR.
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13:41 < jnewbery> ok, it was a silent merge conflict with 16224. Thanks to jonatack for pointing me in the right direction
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13:43 < sipa> jnewbery: re compatibility...i think for backward compatibility we essentially want to be able to load any old wallet file, back to 0.1... but for very far back formats i think it's fine if that needs an explicit conversion step first (possibly using wallet-tool or something similar)
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13:45 < sipa> 2 major releases is not much though...
13:46 < jnewbery> sipa: what if that explicit convertion step is "load it on v0.xx first"?
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13:47 < jnewbery> I'd argue that if we don't test something we can't really claim that we support it.
13:48 < sipa> then we should test it :)
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13:49 < jnewbery> Maybe, but it's probably not worth the developer time. I'm personally not interested in writing tests for v0.1 wallets.
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13:52 < sipa> fair, but there is a difference between supporting and not gratuitously breaking
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13:53 < sipa> i think it'd be unfortunate if someone needs to jump through hoops like running already-unsupported versions just to get access to a years-old wallet file
13:54 < jnewbery> If it's to improve code quality and remove debt, it's not gratuitous
13:54 < jnewbery> unfortunate but not the end of the world
13:55 < sipa> ok, let me then be more clear: i think it's ok if someone with a wallet file from 2012 has to go through some hoops to load a wallet
13:55 < sipa> i don't think that's ok for a wallet from 2017
13:55 < sipa> these things can be very long lived
13:56 < sipa> and sometimes forgotten about
13:56 < jnewbery> that also seems reasonable to me. 2 versions is maybe too aggresive.
13:58 < sipa> for forward compatibility i think shorter timelines are acceptable; nobody expects being able to downgrade to years old software
13:58 < sipa> but being able to roll back after an incompatibility introduced in one version vs the next is very desirable
13:59 < jnewbery> yes, I think 1 or 2 is acceptable for forward compatibility
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14:26 < sipa> when using the snap package, is it expected that the binaries are called bitcoin-core.daemon bitcoin-core.cli ... instead of the usual ones?
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14:36 < sipa> fwiw, sqlite 3.6.10 (compiled with everything --disable-...) from 2009 can open a database i created with 3.31.1 (compiled with every --enable-...) fine
14:36 < sipa> 3.6.10 because it's the earliest available in the git clone i'm using
14:56 < sipa> also, there is a db creation option that guarantees compatibility with 3.0.0
14:58 < sipa> otherwise it seems forward compatibility exists down to 3.3.0, except when newer extensions are explicitly used
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15:01 < luke-jr> [21:56:55] <sipa> also, there is a db creation option that guarantees compatibility with 3.0.0 <-- nice
15:02 < luke-jr> is there one that guarantees compatibility with the current stable version in major distros?
15:02 < luke-jr> (eg, if Core were compiled against some future version we can't anticipate)
15:02 < sipa> no, it seems there have not been any actual format changes since 3.3.0 in 2006
15:03 < sipa> only extension
15:03 < luke-jr> ok, so what we'd want is an option to force compat with 3.3
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15:04 < luke-jr> if someone builds against some future sqlite 3.90, we'd want to be sure it remains compatible with what we're using now
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15:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5b24f6084ede...b55866969e24
15:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 095bc9a Harris: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer
15:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b558669 MarcoFalke: Merge #18917: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer
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15:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18917: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer (master...fix-system-fuzzer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18917
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16:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #18918: wallet: Move salvagewallet into wallettool (master...wallettool-salvagewallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18918
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16:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18919: test: Add gettransaction test for "coin-join" tx (master...2005-testCoinJoinGetTx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18919
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16:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b55866969e24...376294cde6b1
16:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fae153b MarcoFalke: test: Fix verack race to avoid intermittent test failures
16:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 376294c MarcoFalke: Merge #18866: test: Fix verack race to avoid intermittent test failures
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16:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18866: test: Fix verack race to avoid intermittent test failures (master...2005-qaVerackRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18866
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16:47 < sipa> MarcoFalke: i don't think issues should be closed because nobody is working on them
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16:47 < sipa> or at least, not only for that reason
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19:09 < luke-jr> [23:47:07] <sipa> MarcoFalke: i don't think issues should be closed because nobody is working on them <-- indeed, some look like "good first issue" material
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