--- Log opened Mon May 11 00:00:17 2020
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00:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #18942: doc: Increase minimum required GCC to 5.1 (master...gcc_5_1_for_codecvt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18942
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04:54 < wumpus> FWIW I completely agree with amit
04:55 < wumpus> she's not telling to stop contributing, just that at some point you might want to move on from 'good first issues' and give new users a chance at them
04:55 < wumpus> it definitely wasn't worded in a mean or harmful way
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04:57 < wumpus> that brakmic interpreted it the wrong way sucks though, but, calling for "removing people from the repository" for this really goes too far
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04:59 < wumpus> please leave the project yourself if you want things to work that way
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05:18 < wumpus> I really want to push forward with 0.20.0 so I'm going to triage things labeled 0.20.0 somewhat more strictly
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05:39 < jonatack> I passed a similar message to brakmic a couple of weeks ago by private IRC discussion. It went very well and he came out of it with a noticeable commitment to reviewing other contributors' work, where he was seeing new opportunities to contribute off the beaten path. I reckon one further private discussion would have resolved this completely and wish I had done that. 
05:41 < fjahr> That's a great approach jonatack
05:41 < fjahr> Amiti's intentions were only positive, absolutely, and removing her from the repo is out of the question. But I have to say I can also feel for brakmic that this must have been demoralizing because he did other things like reviews as jon said and most of his "good first issue" PRs were ~6 months old. If nobody took them by then I think it's fair to assume that maybe they were not so beginner friendly? Amiti's 
05:41 < fjahr> post also got a lot of positive reactions, so he must have felt isolated at that moment. 
05:42 < fjahr> I think more or less what Marco said in the issue: If beginners think there are not enough "good first issue" issues then we just need to create more. It's not like there is a lack of opportunities in the codebase, beginners just need guidance to find them. I also think we should encourage reviewing more as a way to get started. Traditionally reviewing tickets is more a "senior dev" thing and so many beginners 
05:42 < fjahr> seem to think they need to get something merged first before they can be a reviewer. We can see it in the review club too: people say they reviewed the PR and can participate in the discussion, yet don't seem to have the courage to give a Concept ACK.
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05:52 < wumpus> I think it's good to reach out to brakmic in any case
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05:55 < wumpus> I very much understand how stressful it is to do PRs to bitcoin core in the first place, and this was probably the last straw for him
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05:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18748: [0.20] rc2 Backports (0.20...0_20_rc2_backports) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18748
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06:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #18945: build: Ensure source tarball has leading directory name (0.20...2020_11_0.20_tarball_prefix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18945
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06:19 < instagibbs> She knows full well how it is to be a new contributor, I'm certain it's miscommunication. Let's be extra sensitive to newcomers!
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06:33 < wumpus> agreed
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06:53 < jonatack> reached out via keybase
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07:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18946: rpcwallet: Replace boost::optional<T>::emplace with simple assignment of T{} (master...2005-rpcWalletOptional) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18946
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07:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ec4d27fa8bdc...f71a3a882974
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 872aa25 Martin Zumsande: doc: add c++17-enable to fuzzing instructions
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f71a3a8 MarcoFalke: Merge #18939: doc: add c++17-enable flag to fuzzing instructions
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07:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18939: doc: add c++17-enable flag to fuzzing instructions (master...202005_fuzz_doc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18939
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07:23 < provoostenator> It's a pain to navigate to a milestone in Github, so I'll just spam this link, also a reminder to self: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+milestone%3A0.20.0
07:24 < wumpus> what i tend to do is click the "0.20.0" next to a PR, though that ends up here (both issues and PRs view): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/milestone/42
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07:32 < theStack> Talking from the perspective of someone who also started contributing to core not too long ago, I can confirm that in the very beginning
07:32 < theStack> 1) it can be quite frustrating to repeatedly see that an new interesting looking "good first issue" is taken fast; those are really
07:32 < theStack> _awesome_ onboarding instruments, and it kind of feels disappointing and is against its basic idea of educating if they are tackled
07:32 < theStack> by people which are already way more advanced (not talking about the many months old ones issues here though)
07:32 < theStack> 2) there is a strong mindset of "i have to contribute first before i do anything else", as one might feel the need to
07:32 < theStack> first get some reputation, as otherwise one may isn't taken seriously; that's why maybe even more people were kind of
07:32 < theStack> waiting for new "good first issues" (there is even a twitter bot for it!) and Amiti's post did get so many thumbs up.
07:32 < theStack> I think that this was in no way meant rude by Amiti. I'd even go so far and say it can be seen as a compliment,
07:32 < theStack> like "you have advanced to a level where good first issues are too easy for you". 
07:32 < theStack> I'm glad to see how fast the reactions were and how everyone tries to clear the issue. A sign for a strong
07:32 < theStack> community actually. Of course, I also hope brakmic comes back soon.
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07:34 < provoostenator> I must say I never picked a "good first issue" when I started out. Not saying that was smart of me, but just to add a data point.
07:35 < provoostenator> I just picked something that bothered me and apparently didn't bother anyone else enough to deal with it first :-)
07:35 < provoostenator> But my first PR took several months to get merged, so...
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07:38 < wumpus> thanks for weighing in; I think having contributed *something* is good before starting to review, unless you can somehow start reviewing at a deep technical level without having written any code for bitcoin core (e.g. contributor to a similar or adjacent project), but that's rare
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07:39 < wumpus> though it's always 'taken seriously' if you point out problems in review, to be clear
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07:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18948:  qt: Do not call setParent() for WalletModel instances (master...200511-qt-assert) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18948
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07:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #18883: qt: Fix OpenWalletActivity::open() (master...200505-fix-win) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18883
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07:41 < provoostenator> When I'm unfamiliar with the code during a review, the first thing I try is to break stuff. Then I can report that, and feel like I at least got something useful done.
07:42 < provoostenator> Though if you're very new to the project you may just find an existing bug, so it's important to compare to master.
07:45 < theStack> provoostenator: for me personally grep-ing for TODOs was quite a good strategy, besides of 'good first issues'
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07:49 < theStack> wumpus: definitely agree to both of your points; there are also very good beginners resources out there (e.g. by jimmy song, jonatack, amiti...) that make clear how important reviewing is and that every opinion is considered worthy
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07:54 < jonatack> thanks theStack. this is in no way directed at you or anyone, but i feel the phrase itself "i have to contribute first before i do anything else" reveals something.
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07:54 < wumpus> the only possible situation I can imagine where someone is not taken seriously is when a new person starts commenting on things like source organization or aggressively pushing their code style preferences
07:55 < jonatack> the definition of "contribute" itself does not necessarily mean opening PRs
07:55 < jonatack> yet for a majority of new contributors it seems to be seen as exactly that: opening PRs
07:56 < jonatack> when one enters a new project repo (this one or another) and sees *hundreds* of open issues and PRs
07:58 < jonatack> it may be a bit ironic that the reflex is "i need to open PRs here!" ... idk how to improve this but am working on it
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08:00 < jonatack> it's not easy to strike a good balance
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08:01 < luke-jr> reviewing is one of the best ways to start contributing
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08:01 < luke-jr> not only are we bottlenecked on review, it helps you learn the code, expectations, etc
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08:02 < luke-jr> (another good way is to write tests, but test-writing isn't a skill everyone has)
08:03 < theStack> jonatack: yes, mostly people tend to equate "contributing" only to "opening a PR"; the longer i am here the more i think that the most important contribution is actually reviewing
08:03 < jonatack> :love: :D
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08:08 < jonatack> the challenge for me is to get faster at reviewing; all those PRs needing love are a bottleneck, so i don't allocate time to coding... < 5%, certainly... not sure what to do except get faster at reviewing. 
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08:10 < jonatack> luke-jr: +1
08:11 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke_2: I doubt we'll see the end of boost any time soon… There's no C++ standard alternative to Boost::Process in any version, right?
08:12 < jonatack> (but can't become complacent about reviewing either, or a vulnerability gets through)
08:13 < luke-jr> I've seen quite a few serious issues get through recently, but I don't want to scare off reviewing/merging either :/
08:14 < jonatack> yes, this is a fundamental tension
08:14 < yevaud> reviewing almost always has no real "output", which is obviously offputting. 
08:14 < luke-jr> <MarcoFalke_2> luke-jr: At least we can drop the majority of boost. Keeping one or two boost modules might be fine.
08:15 < luke-jr> (he can't speak)
08:15 < sipa> i feel the most rewarding output of review is when both author and reviewer agree that the PR is in a better state due to the reviewers' comments
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08:25 < instagibbs> reviewing can be more of a fine art than throwing a PR out there
08:25 < instagibbs> need to know when to when not to nit, etc
08:32 < aj> what, why are my ears burning?
08:33 < jonatack> i see the whole project as a garden or farm... we are gardeners/farmers... the releases are the seasonal harvest
08:33 < jonatack> aj: nah, it was for me :)
08:33 < instagibbs> a seasoned PR writer knows when to ignore and let ACKs stack :P
08:34 < aj> don't stack sats, stack ACKs
08:34 < sipa> stACKs
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08:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] adamjonas opened pull request #18949: doc: Add CODEOWNERS file to automatically nominate PR reviewers (master...2020-5-add-codeowners) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18949
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08:44 < MarcoFalke> test
08:44 < sipa> fail
08:45 < MarcoFalke> [11:37] [435] MarcoFalke_2 MarcoFalke #bitcoin-core-dev Cannot change nickname while banned/quieted on channel
08:47 < MarcoFalke> I need a new IRC setup
08:48 < MarcoFalke> https://twitter.com/pwuille/status/1171669782065795072
08:48 < sipa> ha
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08:52 < phantomcircuit> gwillen, the way we use bdb is already comically paranoid, iirc every operation results in a complete flush
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08:54 < MarcoFalke> [22:09] <luke-jr> [23:47:07] <sipa> MarcoFalke: i don't think issues should be closed because nobody is working on them <-- indeed, some look like "good first issue" material
08:54 < MarcoFalke> Just saw this and I think if someone proposed a gui improvement in 2016 or 2014, and no one has been working on it since, it should be fine to close
08:55 < MarcoFalke> We can't keep every feature request open indef
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08:56 < MarcoFalke> For bugs that are reproducible, maybe yes, but for improvements we need to cut them off at some point
08:57 < MarcoFalke> Btw ajonas has been helping me go through all issues. So I might do a second run to pick up those that qualify as "good first issues"
08:58 < sipa> MarcoFalke: if there was a better way to classify/keep track of issues, maybe there wouldn't be as much a desire to keep the issue list clean
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08:58 < sipa> i agree with the sentiment; i think many issues are opened once, and then pretty much never looked at... making it useless and cluttering to keep them open
08:59 < aj> i thought the recent issue cleanups were good
08:59 < MarcoFalke> A few of the issues had been fixed long ago, but no one noticed. So I am thinkging that no one is wading through the issues in either case, so I wonder if closing them makes a difference at all
08:59 < MarcoFalke> They can still be searched through and commented on
08:59 < aj> it's good to have IDEAS pages and stuff (like gmaxwell's wiki things) but they don't need to be issues?
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09:01 < MarcoFalke> Sometimes it is good to create an issue to have an URL to point to when the topic comes up again. This is harder to to with IRC threads
09:02 < jb55> if we had encouraged more people to use codetriage it might help with the issue backlog. I'm not a fan of autoclosing personally.
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09:08 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: I was thinking more of getting rid of the univalue fork
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09:17 < MarcoFalke> The decision to close issues is subjective. When an issue has already been solved, or partially solved, but stale for a long time, or I haven't seen a way that something is going to be addressed any time soon or ever, I closed it.
09:18 < MarcoFalke> jb55: How is "codetriage" different from "good first issue" (the tag)?
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09:35 < jb55> MarcoFalke: its tangentially related. I was just commenting on the growing backlog issue. you can subscribe and it sends periodic emails for stale issues to triage. the more people doing it the better.
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09:36 < jb55> usually along the lines of "hey, whats the status of this?" "can this be closed" from there perhaps users can triage old issues into "good first issues".
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10:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f71a3a882974...eb2ffbb7c134
10:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1551cea Hennadii Stepanov: refactor: Use override for non-final overriders
10:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d044e0e Hennadii Stepanov: refactor: Remove override for final overriders
10:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eb2ffbb MarcoFalke: Merge #18914: refactor: Apply override specifier consistently
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10:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18914: refactor: Apply override specifier consistently (master...200508-override) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18914
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11:27 < gwillen> phantomcircuit: that makes sense and I'm really glad to hear it
11:31 < sipa> our bdb code went through several random mutations as long as problem reports were frequent
11:32 < sipa> and then stopped mutating once those problems went away... so we probably ended up in a very stable (but possible overly caution) way of using it
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11:36 < gwillen> that doesn't necessarily seem like a reliable way to get correct behavior
11:36 < gwillen> but it's a reliable way to get almost-always-correct behavior I guess :-)
11:38 < sipa> yes, it's why i don't want to touch bdb with a ten-foot pole
11:38 < sipa> maybe an 11-foot pole is ok, though
11:40 < gwillen> hahaha
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11:40 < gwillen> I think many things work better if you fsync() constantly
11:40 < gwillen> but it makes them very slow
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11:43 < jb55> so we're replacing it with sqlite right :D
11:44 < sipa> i think it's worth considering
11:46 < cfields> gwillen: which is why macOS's fsync doesn't really fully sync. Flushing is annoyingly platform-specific :\
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11:55 < theStack> we are 3 blocks away from the halving <3
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12:08 < reardencode> 2 blocks!
12:09 < reardencode> nope, this countdown lies: https://www.bitcoinsensus.com/bitcoin-halving-countdown/
12:10 < instagibbs> was about to say hash or GTFO :P
12:10 < sipa> depending on whether you see 629999 or 630000 as the halvening time point, 2 or 3 blocks left
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12:11 < MarcoFalke> If you run the bdb with eatmydata, it will be fast
12:11 < MarcoFalke> (don't do this at home)
12:11 < owowo> sounds like COVID-19, depending how you look at it, it's different :P
12:13 < reardencode> 000000000000000000030684c158973dafb512dc91f90420e6811e3f6a2ca79b for real now :)
12:15 < CubicEarth> sipa: 630000 is the first @ 6.25 ?
12:15 < sipa> CubicEarth: correct
12:16 < sipa> (but miners start working on that block as soon as 629999 happens...)
12:16 < sipa> or shortly after at least
12:16 < CubicEarth> So we might be waiting longer than normal for 630000 itself ;)
12:17 < CubicEarth> depending on how fast low margin miners turn off their rigs
12:18 < instagibbs> bragging rights, they'll keep rigs on one block longer ;)
12:18 < theStack> what? isn't the price instantly doubling on 630000? xD
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12:20 < fjahr> miners should mine block 630k with 12.5 until one gets rejected just to make sure validation still works :p
12:20 < CubicEarth> theStack: Of course it will. Have some faith.
12:21 < jonatack> buy the rumor, sell the news... :p
12:22 < owowo> yay, my node finished to sync before halving 
12:22 < theStack> fjahr: that would be quite some costly test :p
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12:24 < sipa> 629999!
12:24 < owowo> 1!
12:24 < theStack> \o/
12:24 < owowo> !!!
12:24 < gribble> Error: "!!" is not a valid command.
12:24 < lightningbot> owowo: Error: "!" is not a valid command.
12:25 < owowo> 630000!
12:25 < CubicEarth> 630000000000
12:25 < owowo> 000000000000000000024bead8df69990852c202db0e0097c1a12ea637d7e96d
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12:25 < theStack> owowo: +1
12:25 < reardencode> !! AntPool!
12:25 < lightningbot> reardencode: Error: "AntPool!" is not a valid command.
12:26 < gribble> Error: "!" is not a valid command.
12:26  * owowo waits for the doubling of price, any moment now
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12:27 < owowo> ok, history made, good night, l0ve you all :)
12:28 < CubicEarth> Just 209,999 more blocks to go until the havening!
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12:28 < CubicEarth> 3.125 - here we come!
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12:31 < theStack> the yearly inflation rate has now lowered to <1,8% (if i'm calculating correctly)
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13:25 < amiti> hey all, I read through the message history of the last ~day and I’d like to share some thoughts 
13:25 < amiti> I feel really sad that I created feelings of an unwelcoming environment for brakmic. That was exactly the opposite of my intent. I was trying to help create space for even more people to ramp up onto the project, but clearly that wasn’t the message that came across and that really sucks. In no way did I intend to discourage him.
13:25 < amiti> I was actually working on a follow up comment to try to brainstorm some good places to search for more work (like looking at up-for-grabs closed issues), but was taken off guard by his response, and spent the rest of the day away from the keyboard. Obviously I’m pretty new around here myself, and oof, good communication is much harder than C++ 
13:26 < amiti> I wrote some explanation on the issue trying to share where I was coming from. I’m going to repeat some of it here, and share a bit more..
13:26 < amiti> I feel deeply grateful to get to work on bitcoin core on a daily basis. I 100% do not think I would be here if it weren’t for the many of you who have believed in me & taught me so much, even when I doubt myself. I’ve found the bitcoin core community to be welcoming & supportive, and I wish to share that with others who feel intimidated but interested
13:26 < amiti> Several people have been reaching out to me lately about trying to figure out how to onboard, probably because of the different outreach stuff I’ve been doing. Some new contributors drew my attention to this pattern, leading to me leaving the comment. I figured most people who are contributing to the project don’t realize that there are people lurking and searching for an issue to tackle, so I was trying to 
13:26 < amiti> share that perspective and make a request. I really didn’t realize my comment could come off so negatively.
13:26 < amiti> In terms of onboarding newcomers, I agree that review is super important, and also that it’s really hard. One barrier to this for newcomers is they see a huge backlog and they don’t know where to start. So something I’ve started doing is choosing test PRs and trying to directly hand them out. Maybe a possible idea here is to create a similar label along the lines of “good first review”.
13:26 < amiti> And another thing that’s becoming more apparent to me is that even after the first issues & first reviews, it can also be tricky to figure out what’s next. I know many people feel like too-much-to-do-too-little-time, but on the other hand there are people looking for work that’s within their skillset and would be helpful. I wonder how we as a community could help better match these together.
13:26 < amiti> This whole interaction has really surprised me with how it’s played out. The nice part of it has been seeing in action how much you all care about creating a supportive environment. 
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13:26 < amiti> I’m learning a lot and I appreciate your patience with me along the way. Its an honor to work with you all on bitcoin core <3 
13:26 < amiti> fin 
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13:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fametrano opened pull request #18952: avoided os-dependant path (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18952
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14:02 < jb55> it's all good sounds like it was just some miscommunication
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14:31 < sipa> amiti: communication is hard
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14:53 < Pavlenex> Hey. Who's in charge of Transifex? Translated 0.20 in Serbian from scratch but there's no moderator for the language, so it can't be reviewed. Can anybody provide me with a reviewer access so we can proceed? Thanks.
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14:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] andrewtoth closed pull request #18941: validation: Persist coins cache to disk and load on startup (master...persist-coinscache) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18941
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16:18 < gleb> I was very happy to find "bitpeers" today, the go tool which parses peers.dat in various ways. Not sure people here are aware of it, just wanted to share :)
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18:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #18955: net processing: requeue transaction GETDATA requests more frequently (master...2020-05-requeue-txrequest) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18955
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18:12 < meshcollider> wumpus: re #18700 what do you mean by not quite ready yet?
18:12 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18700 | Fix locking on WSL using flock instead of fcntl by meshcollider · Pull Request #18700 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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18:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/eb2ffbb7c134...7a5767423f37
18:14 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 047ceac Amiti Uttarwar: [net processing] ignore tx GETDATA from blocks-only peers
18:14 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e257cf7 Amiti Uttarwar: [net processing] ignore unknown INV types in GETDATA messages
18:14 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2f03255 Amiti Uttarwar: [test] test that an invalid GETDATA doesn't prevent processing of future m...
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18:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18808: [net processing] Drop unknown types in getdata (master...2020-04-getdata) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18808
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18:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #18955: net processing: requeue transaction GETDATA requests more frequently (master...2020-05-requeue-txrequest) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18955
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19:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] andrewtoth reopened pull request #18941: validation: Persist coins cache to disk and load on startup (master...persist-coinscache) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18941
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20:19 < luke-jr> would be nice if Travis sent an email to the PR creator when it failed :x
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23:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #18432: util: Make our stringstream usage locale independent (master...cpp-locale) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18432
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23:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #18450: util: Use locale independent ToString(…) instead of locale dependent strprintf(…) for low-level string formatting (master...locale-independence) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18450
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23:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #18539: Avoid using locale-dependent boost trim functions in RPCAuthorized(…) and bitcoin-tx (master...avoid-locale-dependent-trim) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18539
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--- Log closed Tue May 12 00:00:18 2020