--- Log opened Thu Jun 18 00:00:26 2020
--- Day changed Thu Jun 18 2020
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00:08 < dburkett> A little late, but one "self-documenting" RAII way of handling locks is taking in a lock reference like: `void func_locked(const std::unique_lock<std::mutex>& lock)`
00:09 < dburkett> It's not as easy to misuse, and doesn't require relying on non-compiler-enforced annotations. The only shortfall is you still need to document which mutex must be locked in cases where there are multiple. 
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00:12 < dburkett> You could even solve that by defining a unique type for each mutex or something, but that's going a little overboard. 
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00:22 < aj> dburkett: having a unique type for each mutex would probably work fine for globals/module-level mutexes, but not for mutexes that are members of an object. could also do an AssertLockHeld(mutex,guard); that checks the guard corresponds to the mutex and isn't random garbage
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00:23 < dburkett> AssertLockHeld is only runtime enforceable, but yes that's an improvement.
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00:25 < dburkett> The mere existence of a lock parameter at all though is an improvement over the current situation. Any assertions/annotations/custom mutexes beyond that are a bonus 
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04:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/931035b60830...343c0bfbf1e5
04:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 80d4423 Troy Giorshev: Test buffered valid message
04:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 343c0bf MarcoFalke: Merge #19304: test: Check that message sends successfully when header is s...
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04:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19304: test: Check that message sends successfully when header is split across two buffers (master...2020-06-test-partial) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19304
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05:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/343c0bfbf1e5...b8740d6737b4
05:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1f790a1 Pieter Wuille: Make Span size type unsigned
05:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bb3d38f Pieter Wuille: Make pointer-based Span construction safer
05:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ab303a1 Pieter Wuille: Add Span constructors for arrays and vectors
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05:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18468: Span improvements (master...202003_conv_span) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18468
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05:22 < wumpus> achow101: is #19292 the next step in #18971? if so, would it make sense to put that in high prio for review first?
05:22 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19292 | wallet: Refactor BerkeleyBatch Read, Write, Erase, and Exists functions into non-template functions by achow101 · Pull Request #19292 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:22 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18971 | wallet: Refactor the classes in wallet/db.{cpp/h} by achow101 · Pull Request #18971 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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06:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #19318: build: disable -stack-clash-protection on Windows (master...disable_stack_clash_windows) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19318
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07:14 < achow101> wumpus: yes
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07:25 < wumpus> achow101: ok, replaced
07:25 < achow101> although #19292, #19308, and #19310 shouldn't conflict with each other so they can be merged in any order
07:25 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19292 | wallet: Refactor BerkeleyBatch Read, Write, Erase, and Exists functions into non-template functions by achow101 · Pull Request #19292 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:25 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19308 | wallet: BerkeleyBatch Handle cursor internally by achow101 · Pull Request #19308 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:25 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19310 | wallet: BerkeleyDatabase make BerkeleyDatabase::Create, CreateMock, and CreateDummy non-static functions by achow101 · Pull Request #19310 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b8740d6737b4...c7ebab12f941
07:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a389ed5 Andrew Chow: walletdb: refactor Read, Write, Erase, and Exists into non-template func
07:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c7ebab1 MarcoFalke: Merge #19292: wallet: Refactor BerkeleyBatch Read, Write, Erase, and Exist...
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07:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19292: wallet: Refactor BerkeleyBatch Read, Write, Erase, and Exists functions into non-template functions (master...refactor-bdb-read) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19292
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07:28 < wumpus> achow101: true, I do think that it's better to have a smaller PR on there if you have split up things anyway
07:29 < achow101> next in line is 19308
07:31 < wumpus> ok, I'll leave it to someone else to replace that, I'm done for it for a bit :)
07:31 < achow101> i'll wait for the meeting
07:44 < wumpus> nah already swapped it
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07:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #19320: wallet: Replace CDataStream& with Span<char> where possible (master...2006-walletSpan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19320
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08:03 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: re:  #19033, you added the "waiting for author" tag, what is it waiting on?
08:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19033 | http: Release work queue after event base finish by promag · Pull Request #19033 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:05 < promag> for me to fix it
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08:10 < wumpus> it's broken? that wasn't clear to me
08:11 < promag> yeah it is :(
08:11 < wumpus> let's remove it from high priority for review for now, then
08:11 < wumpus> doesn't make sense for people to review it if it's broken :)
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08:18 < wumpus> okay, yes I see why now
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08:23 < wumpus> it's unfortunate that it turns out to be so difficult to get the http shutdown correct, I remember lots of times it was 'fixed', I wish libevent-http just came with a multi-threaded web server itself instead of us having to hack it on top of it
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08:24 < promag> wumpus: re HP, sure
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08:25 < promag> wumpus: there's also corner cases regarding shutdown and ongoing rpc responses
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08:25 < wumpus> yes, ther's always been
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08:25 < promag> and also not being able to discard lots of incoming requests
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08:26 < wumpus> or at the least, defer accept()
08:27 < wumpus> but no it accepts every connection immediately without some kind of fd quota
08:28 < wumpus> well, switching to it from boost::asio seemed like a good idea at the time (it at least solved some issues)
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08:34 < wumpus> I'll have a look at it too some time
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09:20 < luke-jr> #11082 rebased yet again
09:20 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11082 | Add new bitcoin_rw.conf file that is used for settings modified by this software itself by luke-jr · Pull Request #11082 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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10:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c7ebab12f941...0865a8881d39
10:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 25f3554 Hennadii Stepanov: scripted-diff: Make SeparatorStyle a scoped enum
10:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0865a88 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin-core/gui#3: scripted-diff: Make SeparatorStyle a scoped enum...
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10:01 < MarcoFalke> Just merged the first pull from the gui repository. Hope nothing caught fire
10:02 < achow101> oh noes my computer is on fire
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10:19 < troygiorshev> does anyone have experience with our Optional?  I'm looking to use it with a CNetMessage but I'm worried about the performance.  Looks like it doesn't have move semantics until 1.56.0.  Has anyone run into this before?
10:20 < provoostenator> So how does Gribble link to GUI issues now?
10:21 < luke-jr> hrm, might be annoying to have a different # namespace :/
10:23 < provoostenator> Maybe prefix it? E.g. #gui-2
10:24 < MarcoFalke> In github the normalized and absolute identifier is "bitcoin-core/gui#3" or "bitcoin/bitcoin#3"
10:24 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3 | Encrypt wallet · Issue #3 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:24 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3 | Encrypt wallet · Issue #3 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:24 < MarcoFalke> but indeed that seems a bit verbose for IRC
10:24 < MarcoFalke> Might as well post the full link
10:26 < provoostenator> Oh well at least the github normalized method works, TIL
10:26 < provoostenator> Oh no it doesn't
10:27 < MarcoFalke> not for gribble
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10:41 < luke-jr> gui#3?
10:41 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3 | Encrypt wallet · Issue #3 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:41 < luke-jr> someone should fix gribble for whatever we do :P
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10:41 < provoostenator> Where does Gribble's source live?
10:42 < luke-jr> nanotube's repo on gitlab iirc
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10:59 < dongcarl> Looks like I have missed a fun, popcorn-worthy convo above, just to add what I know: the mrustc support is solid, and development of it is very active in Guix, and just 6 days after the release of mrustc 0.9 (equiv of rustc 1.29.0), patches were being reviewed for taking advantage of the newer version and shortening the bootstrap chain by 10 steps
10:59 < dongcarl> (1.19.0...1.29.0).
10:59 < dongcarl> The current method crawls through one minor version at a time (which is probably the safe way to do it), and there's a substantial number of rust package users in Guix who will notice if the bootstrap chain breaks.
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11:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #16546: External signer support - Wallet Box edition (master...2019/08/hww-box2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16546
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11:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors reopened pull request #16546: External signer support - Wallet Box edition (master...2019/08/hww-box2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16546
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11:12 < provoostenator> ^ oops, wrong one
11:16 < provoostenator> I moved the HWW GUI PR to  the GUI repo, since there wasn't much discussion on it yet
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11:19 < moneyball> #proposedmeetingtopic taproot implementation plan; is v0.21 realistic?
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11:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0865a8881d39...c2bcb99c1d11
11:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faceed7 MarcoFalke: doc: Add redirect for GUI issues and pull requests
11:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 66666d5 MarcoFalke: doc: Mention repo split in the READMEs
11:21 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c2bcb99 MarcoFalke: Merge #19071: doc: Separate repository for the gui
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11:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19071: doc: Separate repository for the gui (master...2005-splitRepoGui) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19071
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11:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #19321: ci: Run asan ci config on cirrus (master...2006-ciCirrusAsan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19321
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12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 18 19:00:14 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < moneyball> hi
12:00 < cfields> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
12:00 < wumpus> jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
12:00 < sipa> hi
12:00 < MarcoFalke> hi
12:00 < achow101> hi
12:00 < fjahr> Hi
12:01 < ajonas> hi
12:01 < meshcollider> hi
12:01 < wumpus> one proposed meeting topic for today: taproot implementation plan (moneyball)
12:01 < wumpus> any last minute topics?
12:02 < ariard> hi
12:02 < luke-jr> hi
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12:03 < kanzure> hi
12:03 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:03 < jeremyrubin> hola
12:03 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  currently: 12 blockers, 3 chasing concept ACK
12:03 < wumpus> anything to add/remove?
12:03 < MarcoFalke> I'd like to add #19028 
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19028 | test: Set -logthreadnames in unit tests by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #19028 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:03 < luke-jr> wumpus: #18818 should probably be under Bugfixes, not Blockers? not sure on categorisation
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18818 | Fix release tarball generated by gitian by luke-jr · Pull Request #18818 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:04 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: added
12:04 < jamesob> hi
12:04 < MarcoFalke> thx
12:04 < wumpus> luke-jr: ok moved
12:05 < cfields> luke-jr: gah, sorry, forgot about that one. Will take a look regardless of how it's tagged.
12:05 < luke-jr> cfields: thanks
12:05 < jonasschnelli> hi
12:05 < jamesob> tangential to 19028, maybe we should set logthreadnames=1 by default if we can show there isn't a performance hit
12:06 < luke-jr> I did notice #18818 was insufficient for Knots, but only because Knots is distributing files rendered from SVGs at dist-time - shouldn't affect Core's needs
12:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18818 | Fix release tarball generated by gitian by luke-jr · Pull Request #18818 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < wumpus> no strong opinion, but I'm not sure the thread names are useful to most non-developers
12:06 < wumpus> for running the tests it makes sense though
12:07 < jamesob> I'm thinking it could be useful when we ask for debug.logs in bug reports
12:07 < wumpus> but we had a similar discussion at the time about adding microseconds by default to the log - like okay, for some things it might be useful, but it just widens the log messages 
12:07 < dongcarl> luke-jr: I think after exploring a bit in the `tarfiles` python module (quite powerful, and shipped with python by default), we can use it to "union" the `make dist` archive, and the `git-archive` archives, happy for yours to be merged in first, just wanted to mention it here.
12:08 < luke-jr> dongcarl: GNU tar can do it too, but I'm not sure it's worth the complexity
12:08 < wumpus> jamesob: can you show a specific example where it helps? are there many log messages that are ambigious as to where they originate?
12:09 < wumpus> (especially of those enabled by default)
12:09 < jamesob> wumpus: fair point, will raise again if I can
12:09 < wumpus> jamesob: thanks
12:10 < dongcarl> luke-jr: last time I tried it with GNU tar I remember it had weird behaviour, anyway, I'll shut up until I have code :-)
12:10 < luke-jr> dongcarl: also, I had originally made 18818 to do that, but I was uncertain of the ramifications of having different timestamps for the modified files
12:11 < luke-jr> (iirc, git-archive is using a timestamp potentially after the gitian reference timestamp, so the source files would appear "newer" possibly)
12:11 < jnewbery> I don't see any downside to logging thread names by default (unless there's a performance hit). It does make tracing what's going on in the log files a lot easier
12:12 < wumpus> jnewbery: do you have any specific examples where it wouldh elp or would have helped?
12:12 < dongcarl> luke-jr: true, but with the `tarfiles` python module we can make decisions on that programmatically ourselves, instead of GNU tar doing what its default conflict resolution is
12:12 < wumpus> the default amount of logging shouldn't be a performance hit in any way, adding a field isn't going to make it noticably worse
12:13 < wumpus> so I'm more concerned about making the log unneceessarily spammy/verbose than performance hit here
12:13 < gwillen> thread names are non-unique, right? it might be nice to log thread IDs in addition or instead.
12:14 < gwillen> otherwise all the worker threads will log the same name and it still won't help to tell them apart.
12:14 < wumpus> all the names are unique
12:14 < jamesob> gwillen: I think they're unique at the moment; those that aren't have an increasing suffix
12:14 < gwillen> ah okay great, nevermind
12:15 < jnewbery> wumpus: it's just easier when you're eyeballing the log to get an idea of what's going on. Obviously if you know or look up the location of every log call in the source, you can work it out.
12:15 < sipa> i just git grep the log message :)
12:15 < wumpus> sipa: same, it's the only way to be sure :) log messages tend to be unique enough
12:15 < sipa> (no objection to logging thread names by default if it has no performance impact, though)
12:17 < provoostenator> (hi)
12:17 < wumpus> but if everyone wants to add tghat field and I'm the only one slightly sceptical about it, just add it, no strong opinion
12:17 < sipa> let's first benchmark?
12:18 < jnewbery> validation interface logging is also super helpful if you haven't played around with it. It's nice to see when the signals being added to the callback queue and when they're serviced by the scheduler thread
12:18 < wumpus> if looking up a thread name really causes a performance hit something is really wrong btw
12:18 < wumpus> if logging is on the performance critical path (with the default amount of logging) in the first place
12:18 < sipa> agree, but haven't we had surprising experiencing with this in the past?
12:18 < jamesob> wumpus: yeah I reckon you're right. couldn't hurt to see if something's really wrong though
12:19 < jamesob> MarcoFalke has proposed to add a logging benchmark re: the previous issue, which I think is still open?
12:19 < sipa> make it it isn't looking up the thread name for log categories that are disbaled
12:19 < wumpus> sipa: there was some worry about enabling TLS causing a performance hit (independent of whether it was actually used frequently)
12:19 < wumpus> sipa: but this turned out not to be the case
12:19 < wumpus> (TLS as in Thread Local Storage, not the other thing)
12:20 < MarcoFalke> jup the log bench is still open
12:20 < MarcoFalke> imo it can be merged. The risk should be zero
12:20 < wumpus> I implemented the thread name lookup using a map but then it turned out to not be the problem at all
12:20 < jamesob> MarcoFalke: agree, think I've acked it
12:20 < sipa> ok
12:20 < wumpus> in any case please do not log on the critical path
12:20 < wumpus> definitely not by default (with debug flags is fine)
12:21 < wumpus> but if it's logging in an inner loop or something that really affects, say, validation performance, that's not how logigng should be used
12:22 < wumpus> it's why I find a logging benchmark kind of weird, we're not trying to optimize logging throughput
12:23 < jamesob> it's less for optimization and more just an assurance we're not doing anything totally dumb
12:23 < jnewbery> jamesob: agree
12:23 < MarcoFalke> the benchmark also checks that *disabled* logs don't affect performance
12:23 < MarcoFalke> maybe I should call is nolog bench
12:23 < MarcoFalke> *it
12:23 < wumpus> that's a good idea
12:24 < wumpus> logprintf arguments shouldn't even be evaluated in that case
12:25 < MarcoFalke> jup (I broke that once)
12:25  * MarcoFalke hides
12:25 < wumpus> heh
12:26 < wumpus> #topic Taproot implementation plan (moneyball)
12:26 < moneyball> Hi everyone, I wanted to check in here to get a sense for whether contributors are imagining the taproot implementation making it into v.21 or not. If yes, then it is likely the case that there needs to be pretty extreme focus in order to make it in time.
12:27 < moneyball> Here is a draft document that compiles a list of things that (arguably) need to be done for taproot to be complete. Would love feedback on this: is everything listed required? Is anything missing? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DAMV9csW9k7vDh118_e65-IPJd4AcCImkvsB0b3gbNw/edit
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12:28 < moneyball> (feel free to comment in the doc)
12:28 < moneyball> or here
12:28 < luke-jr> moneyball: activation isn't required
12:29 < moneyball> ok
12:29 < sipa> typically our process would be merging in a 0.x.0 release, and then implementating activation whenever in a 0.x.1
12:29 < wumpus> associated PR would be #17977 I guess
12:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17977 | [WIP] Implement BIP 340-342 validation (Schnorr/taproot/tapscript) by sipa · Pull Request #17977 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:29 < luke-jr> signet isn't required
12:29 < jeremyrubin> yeah I think we don't usually aim for major releases to have forks, should be a minor
12:30 < jeremyrubin> So there really isn't any release window time crunch to push for
12:30 < jeremyrubin> But I agree in principal with trying to figure out a path for activation
12:30 < moneyball> luke-jr, sipa: well there is including the activation code and then separately configuring the activation parameters. right?
12:30 < sipa> moneyball: depends on the activation mechanism
12:31 < sipa> if a new activation mechanism needs code, then yes that needs code :)
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12:31 < moneyball> ha :)
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12:31 < jeremyrubin> One thing I'm curious to look at is if the recent changes to the sighash & the recent hardware wallet issues are informing or suggesting any other sighash changes we should be doing concurrently.
12:31 < moneyball> ok my understanding of that is that a new activation method is planned to be proposed to the mailing list, and IF there is consensus around that, then yes, that code would need to be added to Core
12:31 < ariard> haven't reviewed yet 17977 yet, what's the test coverage of it ? do we need to add more support for testing taproot tree composition in fuzzing or test framework?
12:32 < sipa> ariard: the python code is effectively an extensive generate-random cases with lots of edge cases, and compare the python-created signatures against block/tx validation
12:32 < sipa> ariard: more testing is absolutely welcome of course
12:33 < jeremyrubin> moneyball: fwiw I've talked with a bunch of contributors and I think Modern Soft Fork Activation is far from a universally loved approach. That conversation should probably be had more exentsively before you hitch taproot onto that wagon
12:33 < sipa> moneyball: that sounds like it needs ML discussion first
12:33 < moneyball> luke-jr: ok i guess i understand that signet is not required per se, but, some kind of test plan would be. has there been much discussion and consensus for how to test this in Core?
12:33 < moneyball> sipa: yes
12:33 < sipa> it's hard to ask people here what they think about an approach that hasn't even been published yet
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12:35 < moneyball> my hope was to focus on non-activation method work needed in Core
12:35 < sipa> yeah, that makes sense
12:35 < moneyball> perhaps it was a mistake having line item one in that doc 
12:35 < provoostenator> Although not required, it would be really nice to have a Taproot Signet.
12:36 < sipa> i think implementation wise that list pretty much covers it
12:36 < moneyball> ok i just deleted that line item from the doc :)
12:37 < moneyball> i would love to hear more discussion about testing approach. what is there general agreement on? what are open questions that need to be discussed?
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12:39 < jeremyrubin> I think that running on signet doesn't really do anything by itself
12:39 < luke-jr> provoostenator: sure, I was just answering moneyball's request for things not required :P
12:39 < jeremyrubin> The real challenge is to get integration tests somewhere
12:39 < provoostenator> moneyball: having a signet explorer somewhere can help with testing too
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12:40 < jeremyrubin> E.g., people attempting to integrate it and acutally use taproot
12:40 < jeremyrubin> I would put more stock in, e.g., an LND fork with taproot support against regtest than signet (but signet would be great too)
12:40 < sipa> jeremyrubin: that would be great, but i fear that it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem
12:40 < luke-jr> segnet worked okay AFAIR
12:40 < luke-jr> testing should be before merge anyway
12:41 < provoostenator> luke-jr: signet could be in a release and completely changed in the next release though
12:41 < ariard> sipa: does feature_taproot.py attempt any coverage-guided like a fuzzer?
12:41 < sipa> yeah, if not signet we can create a (normal) testnet with it activated too (i think signet would be preferable, but if it somehow doesn't make it in time, i don't think that would be a blocker)
12:41 < sipa> ariard: no
12:41 < provoostenator> Or we could release a taproot signet binary seperately
12:41 < jeremyrubin> sipa: indeed it's hard. I think if signet comes out then people will integrate test against it
12:41 < luke-jr> provoostenator: that seems like a given
12:42 < jeremyrubin> Just more noting that just getting signet out doesn't do anything in terms of progress alone
12:42 < luke-jr> provoostenator: otherwise we'd be merging taproot before testing it
12:42 < sipa> ariard: fuzzing definitely makes sense to test for things like memory violations and UB
12:42 < wumpus> well if it helps getting more attention to testing taproot, that's progress
12:42 < sipa> luke-jr: i think there are different stages of testing, and different stages of getting attention to it
12:43 < ariard> sipa: right you may have nast edges cases we wide trees and oversized tapscripts?
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12:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #19322: [net] split PushInventory() (master...2020-06-split-push-inventory) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19322
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12:43 < sipa> ariard: there is a test for the max depth of the tree, if that's what you're asking for
12:43 < sipa> luke-jr: and at some point it will need to be merged for people to test against a kind of testnet, which hopefully informs discussions on activation
12:43 < ariard> okay great
12:44 < sipa> it can't be testnet/signet tested before being merged - but different kinds of testing are obviously necessary before that point
12:44 < jeremyrubin> I think the issue with signet is it doesn't add a new message type/storage place for the signatures
12:44 < jeremyrubin> I understand why kallewoof did it that way and it makes sense
12:44 < jeremyrubin> But it just makes it difficult for people to want to merge it
12:44 < sipa> jeremyrubin: this seems orthogonal
12:44 < jeremyrubin> slightly
12:45 < sipa> i don't think taproot should be blocked by signet in any case
12:45 < luke-jr> sipa: but I think we want tapnet before merging?
12:45 < jonatack> hi... fwiw MarcoFalke, fjahr, brakmic and I were testing signet for some time and going back and forth with kallewoof on improvements... iirc it's the PR is in pretty good shape
12:45 < sipa> luke-jr: perhaps
12:45 < sipa> luke-jr: i think that may make sense
12:45 < jeremyrubin> What about just flag daying testnet?
12:45 < sipa> there aren't any associated P2P changes, so i think the need for that level of testing may be lower than with segwit
12:46 < wumpus> as said, testnet needs to be compatible between releases, so there's not much scope for experimentation there
12:46  * luke-jr glad to hear brakmic hasn't given up on us completely :x
12:46 < luke-jr> wumpus: doesn't need to be..
12:47 < ariard> do we expect to introduce new standard rules on taproot witness?
12:47 < wumpus> I mean, I think there should be a flag day on testnet before considering activation on mainnet, but only after the protocol and implementation is virtually finalized
12:47 < MarcoFalke> lol, wasn't testnet hardforked for segwit? 
12:48 < MarcoFalke> I mean silent hardfork. "hardfork" is probably the wrong word
12:48 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: ah I see. I thought we can just reset testnet if we want. Does anyone care?
12:48 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: you can also make a soft fork flag day that a rule is enforced for N blocks only
12:48 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: it's possible but should probably be avoided
12:48 < sipa> ariard: yes, though they're pretty weak; upgradability (annex, new leaf versions, ...), and max stack item size
12:49 < sipa> ariard: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17977/commits/fa2b4fded614ef2424404b22a07bfbdb2d77ea6c
12:49 < wumpus> doing things like 'reset testnet' isn't going to make changes more popular
12:49 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: what about flag day testnet and rule only valid for 6 mos of blocks?
12:50 < provoostenator> I find it hard to believe a non-trivial change to testnet is more difficult than signet.
12:50 < jeremyrubin> Would make it easier to do sort of rolling releases on testnet if there's a worry about wanting to permanently be in step with core
12:50 < sipa> meh, we can just create specialized testnets
12:51 < sipa> before or after merge
12:51 < luke-jr> contention to resetting testnet, is a reason to reset testnet :P
12:51 < sipa> testnet has compatbility requirements
12:51 < sipa> specialized things don't
12:52 < wumpus> right, a specialized testnet would make sense, that's basically what signet is anyway (except the mining part)
12:52 < sipa> indeed
12:52 < moneyball> do we consider this PR required for taproot? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18044
12:52 < moneyball> and this one? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19184
12:52 < sipa> moneyball: i believe sdaftuar has some thoughts on that
12:53 < ariard> sipa: indeed all of them are constraints on new data structure so no risk to tamper with network/break existent applications
12:54 < jeremyrubin> network stuff isn't required
12:54 < jeremyrubin> It can be done after
12:54 < sipa> jeremyrubin: read the wtxid relay PR
12:54 < sipa> it gives a justification
12:55 < ariard> right because v0 segwit nodes are going to waste bandwidth constantly redownloading taproot txn they can't verify
12:55 < sipa> indeed
12:55 < sipa> this depends on how upgraded nodes are at the time of activation of course
12:56 < sipa> so it may not be a big issue, but having a way to reduce that impact beforehand sounds like an improvement
12:56 < ariard> ofc how long it takes to get 80% of segwit nodes ? or similar number based on previous forks?
12:56 < jeremyrubin> yeah I am familiar. It's not great, but I personally don't think it's blocking
12:56 < sipa> ok
12:57 < jeremyrubin> I could be wrong on that though
12:57 < sipa> moneyball: i think wtxid could be done before 19184
12:58 < sipa> (but i'm obviously biased in liking 19184 to get in)
12:58 < ariard> jeremyrubin: don't you have a bad effect as we see more taproot txn ande nodes relaying them the cost is increasing non-linearly for non-upgraded nodes?
12:58 < wumpus> meeting time about to end
12:58 < sipa> ariard: well, it's linear, but with a possibly big constant factor
12:59 < moneyball> ok thank you for the feedback. this has been valuable. lots to follow-up on though!
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13:00 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:00 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jun 18 20:00:18 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-06-18-19.00.html
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-06-18-19.00.txt
13:00 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-06-18-19.00.log.html
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13:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #19323: gui: Fix regression in *txoutset* in GUI console (master...200618-utxo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19323
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13:15 < jeremyrubin> I'll retract on 18044 being required; I was quibbling over whether or not we could release without it or whether we should. We should definitely release with a fix, I just don't think it's required insofar as it's a blocker for e.g. testnet
13:21 < hebasto> MarcoFalke: could you suggest a comment for #19323?
13:22 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19323 | gui: Fix regression in *txoutset* in GUI console by hebasto · Pull Request #19323 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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13:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c2bcb99c1d11...dbd7a91fdf3f
13:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 45c08f8 Andrew Chow: Add Create*WalletDatabase functions
13:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d6045d0 Andrew Chow: scripted-diff: Replace WalletDatabase::Create* with CreateWalletDatabase
13:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master da7a83c Andrew Chow: Remove WalletDatabase::Create, CreateMock, and CreateDummy
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13:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19310: wallet: BerkeleyDatabase make BerkeleyDatabase::Create, CreateMock, and CreateDummy non-static functions (master...bdb-refactor-create) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19310
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14:02 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #19324: wallet: Move BerkeleyBatch static functions to BerkeleyDatabase (master...bdb-batch-rm-statics) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19324
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14:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #19325: wallet: Refactor BerkeleyDatabase to introduce DatabaseBatch abstract class (master...bdb-add-dbbatch) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19325
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14:23 < dongcarl> Can someone with the right permissions move https://github.com/theuni/apple-sdk-tools over to the bitcoin-core org?
14:24 < achow101> dongcarl: the current repo owner needs to initiaite it. then a bitcoin-core admin needs to approve it
14:25 < dongcarl> I see
14:25 < dongcarl> cfields: Could you initiate it?
14:25 < achow101> oh and the repo owner needs to have create permissions in the bitcoin-core org
14:25 < achow101> forgot the most important part
14:26 < achow101> when I moved HWI, wumpus had to grant some permission to all members, then remove that permission
14:27 < dongcarl> :-/
14:27 < dongcarl> Seems easier just to start afresh and push to the repo?
14:27 < achow101> then you lose any existing issues and PRs
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14:29 < cfields> It's just 1 file :p
14:30 < achow101> maybe just add it to the packaging repo then? it's kind of packaging related
14:33 < cfields> I have absolutely no preference. I only created a repo for it because I hoped someone better with python would take it and rewrite it, heh.
14:34 < dongcarl> achow101: I think the hope is that other projects that cross-compile for mac might find this useful, as it does the job of 2 separate programs in one python script
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14:49 < cfields> I'll just initiate the xfer. Let me try to figure that out.
14:50 < sipa> can i help?
14:52 < cfields> "You don’t have the permission to create public repositories on bitcoin-core"
14:53 < cfields> Yeah, let's not worry about moving it. It's not worth the effort.
14:54 < cfields> Either new repo or packaging repo are fine.
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14:55 < cfields> sipa: can you create a new repo in bitcoin-core ?
14:58 < sipa> yes
15:01 < cfields> sipa: eh on second thought, maybe best not to create some weird fork history. I'll just invite you as an owner of my repo and you can initiate the move?
15:01 < sipa> sgtm
15:07 < sipa> cfields: i don't have ownership rights on your repo
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15:19 < dongcarl> sipa: many thanks!
15:22 < sipa> ok, all done, i think
15:24 < cfields> sipa: thanks!
15:24 < cfields> I just commented on the lone migrated issue to make this all seem worthwhile.
15:24 < sipa> yw
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18:09 < luke-jr> how annoying that Rust 1.29 requires LLVM 7 which Gentoo no longer has
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19:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #19326: Simplify hash.h interface using Spans (master...202006_spanhashes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19326
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20:15 < luke-jr> hmm, is there any way to use Taproot to penalise evaluating the script path?
20:15 < luke-jr> ie, punish the uncooperative party
20:15 < luke-jr> (I guess Lightning already does it, but I mean simpler)
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22:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/dbd7a91fdf3f...057bd3189f12
22:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 83fd3a6 fanquake: init: use std::thread for ThreadImport()
22:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 057bd31 fanquake: Merge #19197: init: use std::thread for ThreadImport()
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22:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19197: init: use std::thread for ThreadImport() (master...thread_import_no_boost) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19197
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23:22 < gwillen> jb55: hey, I would really ideally like to be able to repro your issue from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18027#issuecomment-613689513 before merge
23:22 < gwillen> but also this PR has been hanging around forever and I want to get it in
23:22 < gwillen> do you know if you have repro steps for it still (I know it was awhile ago, sorry)
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 19 00:00:54 2020