--- Log opened Thu Jul 23 00:00:27 2020
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01:34 < fanquake> #proposedmeetingtopic:  tag rc1
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01:53 < fanquake> Just realized this should have been _release_ rc1
01:54 < fanquake> Has obviously already been tagged, and got 4-5 sigs on the signed  asserts
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03:05 < achow101> Might not be at the meeting today, so #19335 for my hi prio
03:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19335 | wallet: Cleanup and separate BerkeleyDatabase and BerkeleyBatch by achow101 · Pull Request #19335 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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03:42 < elichai2> How stable are blocks/*.dat files? (thinking of writing a parser so you could easily query questions over all the history)
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04:35 < cato_> elichai2: what do you mean with stable?
04:35 < elichai2> cato_: the format of the file
04:37 < cato_> well, if you want to access data in blocks/*.dat you first need metadata from blocks/index/
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04:39 < cato_> which is a key-value leveldb. more or less you use block hashes as keys and it'll tell you where in blocks/*.dat you'll find a particular block
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07:41 < harding> elichai2: https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin-iterate
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08:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #19572: ZMQ: Create "sequence" notifier, enabling client-side mempool tracking (master...zmq_sequence_all) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19572
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08:33 < yanmaani> I have what seems to be a Heisenbug in my test; about 50% of the times I run it it gives an error. Are there any known non-deterministic footguns in the testing framework?
08:33 < wumpus> elichai2: AFAIK the format of the block files has never been changed, there are no guarantees though, data files are not an external interface
08:34 < wumpus> but to be honest I expect them to remain like this, it's simply a magic value then the block data, the metadata (as said) is in the database
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08:34 < yanmaani> If I have two nodes, is it always guaranteed that the blocks will propagate on time?
08:35 < yanmaani> Or is there a way to make them ensure everything is synced?
08:36  * yanmaani thanks the channel for the rubberducking
08:36 < elichai2> wumpus: thanks. I can assume the db metadata is also quite stable? (obviously no promises)
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08:36 < elichai2> yanmaani: obv all network operations can be non-deterministic
08:36 < wumpus> it's usually at least backward compatible
08:38 < wumpus> yanmaani: if you have two nodes and they are connected then they should eventually sync
08:38 < yanmaani> No, I found it
08:38 < yanmaani> there's a specific call you can do to wait until they're all synced
08:39 < wumpus> (there are some exceptions, e.g. a mainnet/testnet node that isn't up to date with the network won't let other nodes sync from it, but none that sould affect writing regtest tests)
08:39 < wumpus> yes, you definitely need to wait for it, I just mean it eventually happens, there is no time guarantee
08:41 < wumpus> fanquake: I'm going to upload rc1 executables, thanks for the reminder, I don't think this needs to be a meeting topic :)
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08:42 < instagibbs> yanmaani, there's one for blocks, one for mempool, and one for both. Typically the last is sufficient, just can make tests slower if not necessary 
08:43 < instagibbs> pretty much any time your test "alternates" between two nodes it can be necessary for non-flakey behavior
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08:55 < instagibbs> getting pretty consistent mempool_packages.py failures, which I don't think is my fault? https://travis-ci.org/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/711137623
08:58 < wumpus> rc1 binaries up https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.20.1/test.rc1/
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09:12 < instagibbs> actually could very well be my fault/my PR exposing that issue, nevermind
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09:14 < troygiorshev> instagibbs: fwiw that test passes on master on my machine
09:17 < instagibbs> yeah no it's definitely my fault, just didn't see the connection until just now
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09:25 < jeremyrubin> elichai2: there are some decent parsers that exist rn. format is stable, but iirc you still need to filter to handle connection logic.
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09:27 < sipa> wumpus, elichai2: the only major changes to the disk format were permitting out-of-order blocks since 0.10, and obviously segwit in 0
09:27 < sipa> .13
09:27 < sipa> s/major /g
09:27 < sipa> i think those may actually be the only changes ever
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09:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.20: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/cac7a9809a3d...58feb9ecb647
09:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.20 58feb9e Wladimir J. van der Laan: doc: Add changelog and authors to release notes for 0.20.1
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09:31 < wumpus> sipa: yes, exactly
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09:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9d4b3d86b694...6ee36a263c5a
09:36 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 62fe6aa Hennadii Stepanov: net: Add -networkactive option
09:36 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3c58129 Hennadii Stepanov: net: Log network activity status change unconditionally
09:36 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2aac093 Hennadii Stepanov: test: Add test coverage for -networkactive option
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09:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19473: net: Add -networkactive option  (master...200709-setnet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19473
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09:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6ee36a263c5a...f4cfa6d01900
09:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eb682c5 Russell Yanofsky: util: Add ReadSettings and WriteSettings functions
09:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9c69cfe Russell Yanofsky: Add <datadir>/settings.json persistent settings storage.
09:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f4cfa6d MarcoFalke: Merge #15935: Add <datadir>/settings.json persistent settings storage
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09:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15935: Add <datadir>/settings.json persistent settings storage (master...pr/rwset) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15935
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09:55 < somethingsomethi> #proposedmeetingtopic taproot in 0.20
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10:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #19405: rpc, cli: add network in/out connections to `getnetworkinfo` and `-getinfo` (master...in-and-out-connections) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19405
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10:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #19455: rpc generate: print useful help and error message (master...rpc-generate-helpful-error_message) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19455
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10:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #19397: test: resyncing to tip of blocks generated after invalidateblock (master...p2p-invalidateblock-tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19397
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10:16 < jonatack> Cleaning out stuff with no ACKs to make room for the new.
10:16 < wumpus> jonatack: fwiw I just didn't get around to reviewing #19405 again in detail yet, I'm definitely not against it
10:16 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19405 | rpc, cli: add network in/out connections to `getnetworkinfo` and `-getinfo` by jonatack · Pull Request #19405 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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10:22 < wumpus> of course it's up to you if you close your PRs or not, but it might make sense to ask for more review instead, things have just been a bit slow for a while with regard to review compared to the number of PRs submitted
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10:38 < jonatack> wumpus: thanks, there are more interesting things i want to work on and don't want to encumber the too-high PR stack with proposals that aren't "hell yes" or have more than a handful of PRs open 
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10:40 < jonatack> also, i think modding your script into a custom dashboard i'm using to observe connections in much more detail by type and eviction criteria made just having in/out seem a little pale :)
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10:44 < wumpus> Ok :)
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10:51 < fjahr> jonatack: maybe 19405 can still be marked as "up for grabs"?
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10:56 < jonatack> fjahr: sgtm
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12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 23 19:00:20 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
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12:01 < sipa> hi
12:01 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james
12:01 < wumpus> amiti fjahr jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
12:01 < meshcollider> hi
12:01 < jeremyrubin> hi
12:01 < jonasschnelli> Hi
12:01 < luke-jr> hi
12:01 < fjahr> hi
12:02 < jeremyrubin> hi
12:02 < amiti> hi 
12:02 < jkczyz> hi
12:02 < phantomcircuit> hi
12:02 < ariard> hi
12:02 < instagibbs> hi
12:02 < pinheadmz> hi
12:02 < wumpus> one proposed meeting topic for this week: taproot in 0.20 (somethingsomethi)
12:02 < aj> hi
12:03 < somethingsomethi> hi
12:03 < wumpus> any last-minute topics?
12:03 < sipa> given that 0.20 is already released, this seems hard
12:03 < kanzure> hi
12:03 < luke-jr> sipa: 0.20.2
12:03 < meshcollider> 8:34 PM <fanquake> #proposedmeetingtopic:  tag rc1
12:03 < wumpus> 0.20.0 (and 0.20.1) have been almost released
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12:04 < somethingsomethi> yes
12:04 < somethingsomethi> let me explain
12:04 < somethingsomethi> This is something that came up in the taproot-activation channel: When could we actually start an activation cycle?
12:04 < wumpus> meshcollider: that's already done, nothing to discuss about that in the meeting I think?
12:04 < jeremyrubin> somethingsomethi: usually we wait till the actual topic is switched to
12:04 < somethingsomethi> ok
12:04 < jnewbery> hi
12:05 < meshcollider> wumpus: Yeah I'm confused too haha dw
12:05 < aj> wumpus: he meant release not tag
12:05 < meshcollider> Isn't it already released?
12:05 < wumpus> aj: that's also been done
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12:05 < wumpus> not at the time he posted that
12:05 < meshcollider> 3:58 AM <wumpus> rc1 binaries up https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.20.1/test.rc1/
12:05 < meshcollider> \o/
12:05 < wumpus> ya
12:05 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:05 < meshcollider> Easy topic then ;)
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12:06 < promag> hi
12:06 < meshcollider> achow101 wanted #19335 on HP
12:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19335 | wallet: Cleanup and separate BerkeleyDatabase and BerkeleyBatch by achow101 · Pull Request #19335 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 11 blockers,  1 bugfix, 3 chasing concept ACK
12:06 < troygiorshev> hi
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12:07 < jeremyrubin> I'll add #19478 as a blocker for me (I don't have any currently slotted)
12:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < wumpus> meshcollider:added
12:08 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: well if it is a blocker for you it should be added as blocker, if not not, it's not like everyone needs to have a blocker slotted every week :)
12:09 < jnewbery> I'd like to make some progress on #19398. The first PR in that sequence is #19472 so perhaps that could be added to high priority?
12:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19398 | Move remaining application layer data to net processing · Issue #19398 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:09 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19472 | [net processing] Reduce cs_main scope in MaybeDiscourageAndDisconnect() by jnewbery · Pull Request #19472 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:09 < jeremyrubin> There's like 70 commits worth of other work that is queued up pending on progress on similar stuff for like the last 6-9 months
12:09 < sipa> jeremyrubin: ok, so it's a blocker; no other justification needed :)
12:10 < jeremyrubin> Those could be all parallelized I guess, but I don't want to overwhelm review
12:11 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: jnewbery  added
12:11 < jnewbery> wumpus: dank
12:11 < jeremyrubin> tx
12:12 < wumpus> #topic taproot in 0.20 (somethingsomethi)
12:13 < somethingsomethi> Like I said, this came up in the taproot-activation channel: When could we really start an activation cycle?
12:13 < somethingsomethi> Going by the segwit playbook, the activation params would be released in 0.21.1, which is probably about 8 months from now, so some people were wondering if this could be shortened
12:13 < wumpus> welcome btw somethingsomethi I don't remember seeing you in a meeting before
12:14 < somethingsomethi> yeah, made this account just two hours ago :-)
12:14 < somethingsomethi> I'm really more trying to pass messages between irc channels
12:14 < luke-jr> I was expecting a 0.20.2 with it, but apparently there's a dependency on wtxid relay?
12:15 < wumpus> I think the question of whether to backport it to 0.20.x is completely independent of shortening anything
12:15 < somethingsomethi> for the purposes of the taproot-activation channel, it would be interesting to know how much time there is before anything starts
12:15 < jeremyrubin> I think there's sort of a tradeoff; how incompatible is master with 0.20 right now v.s. how incompatible will 0.21 be with 0.20?
12:16 < luke-jr> wumpus: well, if it didn't have the wtxid dependency, we could release 0.20.2 in a few weeks with it…
12:16 < wumpus> I think the expectation is to backport it to that branch when it's ready
12:16 < luke-jr> (assuming the usual requirements get met quickly)
12:16 < instagibbs> wumpus, that meaning 0.20(handwaving away deps)
12:16 < instagibbs> ?
12:16 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: or maybe backport it to the current major release/last major release when it's ready
12:16 < instagibbs> or whatever branch is ready by then
12:16 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: yes
12:17 < jeremyrubin> +1, here's to hoping that does mean 0.20 tho
12:17 < wumpus> in any case it shouldn't end up in a .0 first
12:17 < sipa> i think it's very reasonable that the consensus logic for it goes into a .0
12:17 < instagibbs> activation I presume he meant
12:17 < sipa> and then activation goes into a .1
12:17 < luke-jr> I suppose another option would be to just start the 0.21.0 release process after 0.20.1 gets finalised, so that 0.21.1 could be sooner
12:18 < wumpus> I mean the actual activation
12:18 < sipa> the real question here is when the consensus logic can be in a release, as that's a lower bound
12:18 < wumpus> of course ,preparations can go in sooner
12:18 < jeremyrubin> I'm somewhat of the opinion that if a release cycle schedule is holding up when we think a consensus thing gets put out then it makes sense to shift around the release windows, so i agree with luke-jr
12:18 < wumpus> but is this really a problem right now?
12:19 < jeremyrubin> mac recently released an OS with two version numbers btw so that, e.g., 20.2 is identical to 21.1
12:19 < sipa> if there is an expectation to backport the consensus logic to a 0.20 branch, we could take some care to avoid having too many preparation changes in master first
12:19 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: in the ##taproot-activation discussion, yes
12:19 < wumpus> I'd prefer not to shift along major version schedules too much
12:19 < luke-jr> wumpus: I think generally there's a sense that we should have at least a 1 year timeout, and waiting a year before even starting that annoys people :p
12:20 < sipa> i wasn't expecting taproot in a 0.20 branch- but i also sympethize with the argument that consensus changes, when reviewed and agreed upon, shouldn't be too strongly affected by bitcoin core's release schedule
12:20 < wumpus> in any case, the release schedule for 0.21 is in #18947, is this a problem? do you think it should be moved backward or forward?
12:20 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18947 | Release schedule for 0.21.0 · Issue #18947 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:21 < jeremyrubin> I think also that if 0.21 has a bunch of other changes, then people may not upgrade out of major upgrade conservatism
12:21 < luke-jr> wumpus: if we're not backporting to 0.20, the sooner 0.21.0 is released the better IMO
12:21 < jeremyrubin> So we might be further lengthening adoption until, e.g., 0.22 major
12:22 < wumpus> what is the major difference between 0.20 and the curent master branch that you think warrants an early 0.21 release?
12:22 < luke-jr> wumpus: my thought is, as soon as 0.20.1 is released and Taproot logic merged, move the 2020-10-01 date to the next day
12:22 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: generally I think most end users are woefully confused about what our version number system means.
12:23 < luke-jr> wumpus: this would be if wtxid relay + Taproot is seen as too big to backport
12:23 < wumpus> we've never based releases on features
12:23 < somethingsomethi> except segwit wallet release :-)
12:23 < instagibbs> didn't we do it for segwit(and wumpus got upset :) )
12:23 < sipa> luke-jr: the goal is having wtxid _deployed on the network_ before a new segwit softfork
12:23 < wumpus> every 6 months a new major version is released, minor versions are released for bugfixes and softforks
12:23 < wumpus> that's it
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12:23 < luke-jr> sipa: yes, that'd be why releasing 0.21.0 ASAP?
12:24 < sipa> that seems reckles
12:24 < luke-jr> sipa: how?
12:24 < aj> sipa: i was thinking we should consider not relaying txs with taproot inputs except to wtxid peers
12:24 < wumpus> I don't see the need for hurry here to be honest
12:24 < luke-jr> sipa: I don't mean bypassing the release process, just starting it sooner.
12:24 < sipa> luke-jr: sure, but why?
12:25 < cfields_> wumpus: +1
12:25 < wumpus> I don't think 'users want this sooner' is a good reason, quality before everything
12:25 < jeremyrubin> doesn't prove anything but I did two twitter polls https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/1283873417301639169 and https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/1283879638435950594 which shows people don't really understand versioning fwiw
12:25 < luke-jr> wumpus: the release schedule isn't a matter of quality, though, is it?
12:25 < sipa> luke-jr: agree, but it's a matter of development cadence
12:25 < wumpus> I'm fairly sure a predictable schedule helps there
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12:26 < wumpus> if people on twitter don't understand the release schedule, explain it to them
12:26 < jeremyrubin> i tried and they told me that I'm trying to attack bitcoin :p 
12:26 < luke-jr> I suppose I could put it in Knots..
12:26 < wumpus> sigh
12:26 < somethingsomethi> so 0.21.1 around feb it is then?
12:27 < luke-jr> was planning to wait in case the protocol has any further changes though
12:27 < wumpus> that sounds like just riling up things
12:27 < luke-jr> wumpus: ?
12:27 < sipa> if there is a strong desire to have taproot earlier in a bitcoin core release, i think we should prefer backporting to 0.20 over accelerating 0.21
12:27 < wumpus> "that I"m trying to attack bitcoin" I mean
12:27 < luke-jr> ah
12:27 < instagibbs> sipa, ok that's fair enough
12:27 < sipa> (whether that desire exists, i have no opinion about)
12:27 < wumpus> there's lots of trolls on twitter we know that
12:27 < luke-jr> sipa: so two backports?
12:27 < luke-jr> sipa: one with wtxid relay, then the next with Taproot?
12:28 < sipa> luke-jr: i don't have a good answer here -i feel that wtxid deployment will take way longer than people here seem to tolerate for taproot
12:28 < sipa> regardless of what releases it goes into
12:28 < sipa> as it takes sometimes ~years to get new releases deployed...
12:28 < jeremyrubin> it also matches roconnor's complaints
12:28 < luke-jr> well, at least then we can tell people "not enough wtxid relay users yet" if they whine about the delay? :p
12:28 < jeremyrubin> people should care much more about wtxid relay than taproot in some respects
12:29 < sipa> wtxid doesn't really hurt until there are major relay policy changes
12:29 < sipa> s/hurt/help/
12:29 < wumpus> this is the first time I hear about wtxid relay being a problem for taproot
12:29 < wumpus> if I knew this sooner I would not have merged it
12:29 < ariard> we talked about it like 2 or 3 meeting away
12:29 < luke-jr> wumpus: the lack of it is the problem..
12:29 < ariard> when moneyball brought taproot topic
12:30 < wumpus> we can still revert that PR I suppose though it sounds like a mess
12:30 < sipa> wumpus: the opposite; wtxid is arguably required to be deployed on the network, before we can make major relay policy changes
12:30 < sipa> (such as taproot would imply)
12:30 < wumpus> ok
12:30 < luke-jr> sdaftuar: is wtxid relay protocol stable? should we update the BIP to Proposed status?
12:30 < sipa> or any script extension on top of segwit
12:30 < ariard> luke-jr: it has been merged yesterday, sipa has some follow-ups needed
12:31 < sipa> the follow-ups don't change the (specified part of) protocol
12:31 < wumpus> so at least merging it is progress right?
12:31 < sipa> yes, definitely
12:31 < jeremyrubin> I think the problem is that people are proposing a 4 year rollout timeline for the soft fork, to be conservative. If we're not releasing any clients for that until february it's like 5 years. I think we're inviting controversy if we do that.
12:32 < somethingsomethi> any guesstimate on how long the gap between wtxid and taproot would have to be?
12:32 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: ?
12:32 < wumpus> february?
12:32 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I don't see the community tolerating 4 years
12:32 < somethingsomethi> *wtxid and taproot rollout
12:32 < jeremyrubin> "proposed 0.21.1 release"
12:32 < luke-jr> somethingsomethi: depends on how long it takes nodes to upgrade
12:33 < somethingsomethi> luke-jr that's why I wrote guesstimate :-)
12:33 < jeremyrubin> I don't see it being tolerated either, but I think that's what a decent number of people are expecting and proposing.
12:33 < jeremyrubin> By being slow we end up inviting a big kerfuffle UASF thing again.
12:33 < wumpus> I really dislike this discussion about tolerating, things are ready when they're ready
12:34 < wumpus> it sounds like you're trying to pressure us and I really dislike this
12:34 < ariard> You can build most of applications improved by schorr/taproot today (in hacky way though)
12:34 < jeremyrubin> you can draw a line between what I'm expressing and what I'm relaying
12:34 < somethingsomethi> It's not so much about pressure, if everyone agrees it's at least a year out, then at least we can plan accordingly
12:34 < ariard> like ecdsa scriptless scripts
12:34 < instagibbs> ariard, i.e., probably not at all :)
12:35 < jeremyrubin> sorry if it's coming across as *me* pressuring
12:35 < jeremyrubin> I agree with the "release when it's ready" mentality 
12:35 < wumpus> if you want to push this I'm going to quit as maintainer
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12:36 < wumpus> I feel enough responsibility for this to not like if things like this get rushed
12:36 < sipa> fwiw, i don't think there is much in master today that interacts with taproot, that would be hard to backport
12:37 < sipa> i think the bigger question may be wtxid relay
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12:37 < ariard> instagibbs: I disagree a bit, some people instead of complaining are building on ecdsa while envisioning to upgrade to schnorr
12:37 < luke-jr> I guess I can look into backporting that
12:37 < ariard> for their use-case, when ready
12:37 < aj> sipa: updating secp in a backport would be large, but self-contained, so preumably fine?
12:37 < jeremyrubin> sipa: I think we can reasonably release taproot without wtxid relay, no? Taproot blocksonly validation, don't accept things to mempool?
12:37 < instagibbs> fantastic ariard 
12:37 < wumpus> FWIW I like taproot but this is not some shitcoin where we rush features  in to boost the price or something like that
12:38 < sipa> jeremyrubin: ugh...
12:38 < ariard> jeremryrubin: hmmm wouldn't this break compactblock?
12:38 < sipa> aj: yes
12:38 < luke-jr> ariard: no?
12:39 < instagibbs> sipa, ok so you said it takes time for wtxid relay to propagate, how much time? Is this a hard blocker from even setting a signaling window?
12:39 < jeremyrubin> sipa: I mean, whatever is less software work to get it so that clients can take a backport... 
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12:39 < luke-jr> instagibbs: IMO we shouldn't set a signaling window until at the very least Taproot is merged into master..
12:39 < ariard> luke-jr: I mean loosing the propagation benefits of validating transaction before seeing them in a block?
12:39 < instagibbs> luke-jr, right I assumed that
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12:40 < instagibbs> I'm asking *bare* minimum
12:40 < instagibbs> obviously things take time on top
12:40 < luke-jr> ariard: sure, but that's true even without Taproot logic
12:40 < jeremyrubin> ariard: the idea would be that wtxid can't be backported, so it's in 0.21. 0.20 gets degraded compactblock performance
12:41 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: good point, all old clients get degraded compactblock
12:41 < sipa> instagibbs: i need to think about that
12:41 < luke-jr> it would be interesting to split policy acceptance of Taproot, from Taproot consensus deployment
12:42 < instagibbs> sipa, roger
12:42 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: that sounds interesting to me. sipa: why "Ugh" to that?
12:42 < ariard> that sounds a bit awful for network robustness, you will favor connections to upgraded nodes
12:42 < luke-jr> ariard: there is no uniform network policy anyway, nor is the network dependent on that
12:42 < sipa> well, the network won't actually have any taproot-spending transactions until activation, so i think anything before activation doesn't matter
12:43 < jeremyrubin> instagibbs:  an interesting corollary of your point is it may be good to try to backport wtxid relay even earlier (e.g., 0.19 if possible) to boost those #'s
12:43 < instagibbs> that might be too difficult/dangerous
12:43 < instagibbs> (I dont know)
12:44 < luke-jr> well, if we split Taproot consensus vs policy… we only need wtxid relay for policy, right?
12:44 < ariard> luke-jr: I was thinking consequences on peer eviction/selection, if you degrade performances of a whole subset of them
12:44 < aj> there's been a punch of p2p changes since 0.20 that will probably make backporting wtxid relay a bit hard at this point (not very hard if you just rewrite it; pretty annoying if you try cherry-picking/rebasing)
12:44 < luke-jr> so that can proceed in parallel to the consensus/activation
12:46 < sipa> luke-jr: i don't see how that is related to splitting anything
12:46 < luke-jr> if activation happens ~a year from now, having only consensus logic in 0.20, and wtxid relay + Taproot policy only with 0.21+ seems fine?
12:46 < sipa> relay of those relevant transactions won't happen until activation
12:47 < luke-jr> sipa: right, which is why we don't need to sort relay issues until closer to activation
12:47 < sipa> yes, i agree with that
12:48 < luke-jr> we could start the Taproot activation process, and even in the worst case scenario (too few updated to 0.21) have it activate without changing the node policy
12:48 < instagibbs> mmmm
12:48 < sipa> wumpus: do we have any other topics?
12:48 < sipa> i feel the part of the discussion relevant to bitcoin core's release process is over
12:49 < wumpus> no, that was all
12:49 < wumpus> #endmeeting
12:49 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jul 23 19:49:37 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
12:49 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-23-19.00.html
12:49 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-23-19.00.txt
12:49 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-23-19.00.log.html
12:50 < somethingsomethi> ok, so bottom line: There are a couple of interesting ideas, but probably it'll be 0.21.1, and relay might come some time after that. Is that about right?
12:51 < sipa> relay after that? what?
12:51 < aj> wtxid relay is already merged in master, so will be in 0.21.0
12:51 < aj> (unless there's some horrible bug or something)
12:51 < jeremyrubin> I think luke-jr is going to try to summarize in ##taproot-activation
12:51 < instagibbs> I think a summary would be great, I think I grasped the main points at least
12:52 < instagibbs> thanks for input sipa wumpus 
12:52 < luke-jr> yeah, I dropped 3 lines; feel free to add more if I forgot anything
12:52 < luke-jr> somethingsomethi: the split of consensus/relay is only needed if we do deployment of Taproot on 0.20
12:52 < ariard> for folks working on p2p, what's your opinon between transaction request overhaul or erlay getting first ?
12:52 < somethingsomethi> sipa: I mean the first step could be just to activate the validation parts, but not relay transactions until wtxid is sufficiently widespread
12:52 < ariard> (a gleb question who is away to decide on rebase order)
12:52 < sipa> somethingsomethi: then what's the point?
12:53 < sipa> "taproot is active, but you can't actually spend anything yet!"
12:53 < somethingsomethi> luke-jr ah ok. I though it might be an option either way if wtixd uptake is too slow
12:53 < aj> ariard: overhaul first was my thought
12:53 < luke-jr> sipa: the point is to have the consensus side ready when the rest is
12:54 < luke-jr> sipa: since the consensus side may have a long simply-waiting period for activation
12:54 < jeremyrubin> realistically it will be like a year after activation before there's any big uptake on taproot anyways
12:54 < sipa> sure, but having it active before it can be used due to relay reasons is pointless
12:54 < somethingsomethi> sipa: Well, sure. You could look at it as a way to de-risk deployment, but yeah, it wouldn't be overly useful
12:54 < somethingsomethi> at least the second part wouldn't require so much coordination though
12:54 < jeremyrubin> clients can reject invalid spending blocks which is super useful for deployed infra
12:55 < luke-jr> sipa: hopefully 0.21 will be widespread enough before the actual activation occurs
12:55 < instagibbs> It could theoretically happen if phased consensus->relay deployment had the 2nd part delayed, so important to think about? Meanwhile people can still uptake
12:56 < sipa> aj, ariard: if erlay is done without the 128-bit txids (which perhaps it should), i think it's almost orthogonal to the tx request overhaul
12:56 < sipa> as erlay would reuse inv/getdata for the final stage in that setup
12:56 < aj> sipa: oh no, are you attacking my excuse for not reviewing erlay yet?
12:57 < sipa> aj: thanks for reminding _me_ i don't have an excuse not to review it!
12:57 < ariard> I think the last erlay version doesn't have 128-bit txids and new invtx/gettx compare to bip
12:59 < instagibbs> aj, "I'm lazy" <--- good enough
12:59 < instagibbs> ariard, you're correct(at least last time i talked to gleb)
13:00 < aj> instagibbs: too generic
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14:02 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #19573: [WIP] Replace unused BIP 9 logic with BIP 8 (master...bip8) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19573
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15:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #19578: wallet: Avoid duplicate checks on signing failure (master...2020-07-signtransaction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19578
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15:54 < fanquake> wumpus: thanks
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16:46 < yanmaani> What's the deal with named parameters? Why are they so rarely used? Were they added recently?
16:46 < sipa> define rarely used?
16:47 < yanmaani> Compared to Electrum for example. Most RPC calls take positional args.
16:47 < sipa> all RPCs accept both
16:48 < sipa> what people actually use i don't know
16:48 < yanmaani> oh ok, thanks
16:49 < sipa> since version 0.14, fwiw
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17:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f4cfa6d01900...007e15dcd7f8
17:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ef3d4ce fanquake: build: call AC_PATH_TOOL for dsymutil in macOS cross-compile
17:58 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 007e15d fanquake: Merge #19565: build: call AC_PATH_TOOL for dsymutil in macOS cross-compile...
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17:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19565: build: call AC_PATH_TOOL for dsymutil in macOS cross-compile (master...cant_find_dsymutil) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19565
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23:31 < vasild> Is there a python function in test/functional that can be used to serialize varint?
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23:32 < vasild> There is ser_compact_size() test/functional/test_framework/messages.py, but I can't seem to find one for varint
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 24 00:00:28 2020