--- Log opened Thu Feb 04 00:00:35 2021
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00:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5a429d3d0fec...4e946ebcf111
00:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fac05cc MarcoFalke: wallet: [refactor] Pass ArgsManager to WalletAppInit
00:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa06bce MarcoFalke: test: Add tests
00:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7777105 MarcoFalke: refactor: Move all command dependend checks to ExecuteWalletToolFunc
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00:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20715: util: Add ArgsManager::GetCommand() and use it in bitcoin-wallet (master...2012-argsCmd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20715
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00:20 < wumpus> glozow: you just had the bad luck he latched on to your PR, we should probably have blocked him immediately after his attack on Randy
00:21 < wumpus> but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt initially and didn't know about the history
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00:37 < wumpus> it's disappointing that github still doesn't allow deleting inline comments
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01:00 < fanquake> Yes. Can't even access the editing dropdowns for the comments by the deleted account
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01:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4e946ebcf111...f1239b70d116
01:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 20677ff Carl Dong: validation: Guard all chainstates with cs_main
01:23 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f1239b7 MarcoFalke: Merge #21025: validation: Guard chainman chainstates with cs_main
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01:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21025: validation: Guard chainman chainstates with cs_main (master...2021-01-chainman-activechainstate-locking) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21025
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01:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f1239b70d116...ea5a50f92a6f
01:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 98892f3 Fabian Jahr: doc: Improve setup_clean_chain documentation
01:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 590bda7 Fabian Jahr: scripted-diff: Remove setup_clean_chain if default is not changed
01:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ea5a50f MarcoFalke: Merge #21042: doc, test: Improve setup_clean_chain documentation
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01:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21042: doc, test: Improve setup_clean_chain documentation (master...scc-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21042
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03:00 < Kimi_> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21075#discussion_r570125634 - this comment made me think. Would .editorconfig (https://editorconfig.org/) be useful to avoid similar issues sooner?
03:06 < wumpus> Kimi_: maybe! hadn't heard of that yet
03:07 < Kimi_> wumpus, It's actually quite good. It's a simple file where you specify code style of your project. Like tabs vs spaces, indentation etc. 
03:07 < Kimi_> It's supported by many editors & IDEs
03:08 < Kimi_> (MSVS, VSCode and many others)
03:09 < wumpus> yea having a standard shared between editors makes me much more enthousiastic about it than things that are specific to one environment
03:11 < aj> huh, that's cute
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03:23 < wumpus> fanquake: also noticed that, weird
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03:34 < aj> wumpus: looked into any of the decentralised bug-reports-in-git things? be kind-of neat to track PR reviews in git eventually
03:39 < wumpus> aj: i looked at radicle but it didn't seem ready yet, haven't looked any further
03:41 < aj> wumpus: there's https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug which seems a bit more ready; but it's just bugs -- doesn't seem like there's anything non-web for code review stuff
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03:45 < wumpus> thanks, will take a look! yes, code review seems to be the most difficult thing to offer, even github's own command-line client doesn't do it yet (though the API can)
03:45 < wumpus> I mean, *inline code review*
03:47 < aj> yeah
03:47 < aj> i tried using the API to convert a text file to a review a while back, but it didn't work in confusing ways
03:48 < wumpus> I guess old mailing list based open source development had some advantage in that regard, at least it's semi decentralized (only needs some way to distribute messages all-to-all), that said, mail is broken and with the volume of changes it'd become insane
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03:53 < wumpus> a replacement system really would need some UI and structured way to handle metadata
03:53 < wumpus> and also moderation, it sucks but we can't do without that
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03:56 < wumpus> "works offline: in a plane or under the sea? Keep reading and writing bugs!" is nice, sure we can do this sort of by cloning bitcoin-gh-metadata but only in one way
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04:10 < jnewbery> it's nice that we can export all the metadata into bitcoin-gh-metadata, but it's only moderately useful until there are other bug trackers/review platforms that can import it and reconstruct all of the cross-references.
04:11 < jnewbery> at least we have the export. If github gets so bad we can no longer usable, there's the possibility of reconstructing all the PR/review discussion
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04:11 < jnewbery> *we can no longer use it
04:12 < wumpus> it's already useful for all kinds of local tooling/analysis, but yeah
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04:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21080: fuzz: Configure check for main function (take 2) (master...2101-fuzzTake2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21080
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04:17 < jnewbery> agree about tooling/analysis. I use it to track review activity across the repo
04:18 < wumpus> someone could theoretically make a GUI or CLI on top of it to edit things (e.g. add reviews, comments, PRs, issues), which can submit back the changes, then it'd 'only' need some kind of bot to validate, merge and reconcile changes for the project metadata--then again i'd really prefer not to get into writing this kind of tooling myself and hope someone else will make something usable
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04:20 < wumpus> it doen't seem terribly difficult but is a huge amount of work
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04:20 < wumpus> i'd say git already handles a lot of the hard parts
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04:23 < wumpus> i'm not convinced we need the full feature set of github, but something that handles only bugs is clearly not enough
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04:24 < aj> year PR review seems to be github (and gitlab and other similar fully centralised web-based things) or email
04:25 < aj> year? yeah
04:28 < wumpus> yes
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04:36 < aj> oh, i wonder if i could make the "p2p dashboard" thing a patch to https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-maintainer-tools/pull/77
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04:41 < wumpus> sure, more functionality is welcome
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04:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #21081: test, refactor: fix the unreachable code at feature_taproot (master...taproot-test-return) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21081
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04:45 < jonatack> I wonder how different interaction would be, and if less moderation would be needed, without github's gamified activity graph and web browser "buttons to smash everywhere" UI...what if it was command line only...
04:46 < jonatack> nowadays that may sound like a luddite, but hey
04:48 < jonatack> (and the github notion of contributor list = commit list)
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04:59 < wumpus> jonatack: i agree that Microsoft kind of went over the top with this, too much focus on as you say, easy buttons to smash everywhere... i think a lot of stupid spam could be avoided by adding just a little bit more friction
05:01 < wumpus> that said we also face persistent crazies with technical knowledge (e.g. zoltan yesterday) so i doubt it'd remove all need for moderation
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05:06 < wumpus> and some kind of GUI is nice, i mean if people with less cli know-how like GUI designers and users can somehow interact with the repositories, at least to propose issues/PRs and comment, that's good
05:07 < wumpus> but for more advanced things such as merging, no UI is needed, we already use our own script after all
05:10 < wumpus> no need for a big green click-me button 🙂  Iand don't get me started on the editing files through the website mis-feature
05:12 < wumpus> also i'd actually prefer to configure the settings for repositories through a configuration file instead of a web interface
05:13 < aj> hmm, how do you get the failure in #21039 to appear? on current master i just get the error, not assertion failure?
05:13 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21039 | refactor: dont throw in GetChainName() by fanquake · Pull Request #21039 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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05:22 < aj> ah, you need includeconf= to trigger it i think
05:32 < fanquake> Don't think I've ever used includeconf=, so you shouldn't
05:32 < fanquake> just src/bitcoind -testnet -regtest
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05:40 < aj> oh, maybe it's just when bitcoin.conf is entirely missing that you don't get the assert failure
05:40 < aj> yeah, looks like
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06:39 < aj> wumpus: oh, apparently there's a thing called git-appraise! https://github.com/google/git-appraise eg  https://git-appraise-web.appspot.com/static/review.html#?repo=23824c029398&review=de9ebcdf2a1e93365eefc2739f73f2c68a280c11
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06:49 < MarcoFalke> aj: Nice finds. Keep them coming
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10:31 < wumpus> aj: "Distributed Code Review For Git" neat!
10:31 < wumpus> it's a ... Google project?!
10:32 < aj> wumpus: in the sense it's explicitly not one, yeah? (or at least, git-appraise-web README has that disclaimer?)
10:33 < wumpus> (doesn't seem to rely on any google services to use it, just surprised it's under https://github.com/google/git-appraise)
10:33 < aj> yuck, both require signing google CLA
10:33 < wumpus> hhmm
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10:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21082: refactor: Treat ArgsManager::Flags as uint32_t explicitly (master...2102-unsigned) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21082
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10:54 < jnewbery> at the risk of trying to design a distributed git review system here, I don't think you want the review data to be in the same repo as the code. It should be some external system that references the git repo.
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10:58 < MarcoFalke> PSA: All fuzz ci tests are failing due to a silent merge conflict in the integer sanitizer build
10:58 < MarcoFalke> #21082 might fix that
10:58 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21082 | refactor: Treat ArgsManager::Flags as uint32_t explicitly by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #21082 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:59 < hebasto> in `feature_pruning.py` "This test takes 30 mins or more (up to 2 hours)" seems a bit outdated :)
10:59 < MarcoFalke> yeah, I think it was optimized a bit
10:59 < MarcoFalke> could remove that comment
11:00 < MarcoFalke> is it meeting time?
11:00 < jnewbery> yes
11:01 < achow101> meeting?
11:01 < wumpus> #startmeeting
11:01 < jonasschnelli> hi
11:01 < kanzure> hi
11:01 < achow101> hi
11:01 < jonasschnelli> (bot again down?)
11:01 < MarcoFalke> hi
11:01 < jonatack> hi
11:01 < michaelfolkson> hi
11:01 < fjahr> hi
11:01 < hebasto> hi
11:01 < rpite> hi
11:01 < meshcollider> hi
11:01 < warren> hi
11:01 < warren> hi
11:01 < wumpus> i did get a PM from the bot
11:02 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
11:02 < wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
11:02 < wumpus> doesn't look like there are any topics proposed in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt for this week
11:03 < wumpus> any last minute topics?
11:03 < warren> Is the TODO list of what needs to be written to release 0.22 with guix figured out?
11:03 < MarcoFalke> warren: dongcarl wanted to host a topic next week IIRC
11:04 < warren> k
11:04 < jamesob> hi
11:04 < aj> hi
11:04 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
11:04 < core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
11:04 < MarcoFalke> Can I haz #20944? 
11:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20944 | rpc: Return total fee in getmempoolinfo by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #20944 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:04 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8   8 blockers, 1 bugfix, 2 chasing concept ACK
11:04 < MarcoFalke> (it is blocking some fuzzers I wrote)
11:05 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: added
11:05 < achow101> #17331 for me
11:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17331 | Use effective values throughout coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #17331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:06 < wumpus> achow101: also added
11:06 < MarcoFalke> #20017 needs rebase, so can be removed for now?
11:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20017 | rpc: Add RPCContext by promag · Pull Request #20017 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:06 < wumpus> 10 blockers again
11:06 < jamesob> Have a small fuzzer kink and a few comment updates on the highprio assumeutxo PR I'm going to address tonight
11:06 < jonatack> jonasschnelli: do you want to add #20962?
11:06 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20962 | Alter the ChaCha20Poly1305@Bitcoin AEAD to the new specification by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #20962 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:06 < jonasschnelli> not for now
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11:07 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: seems it's been needing rebase for two weeks
11:07 < MarcoFalke> jamesob: The fuzzer is a problem in master, I think
11:07 < jonasschnelli> I'd like to keep #15946
11:07 < jonatack> jonasschnelli: ok. i thought it might be the blocker for bip324 impl
11:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15946 | Allow maintaining the blockfilterindex when using prune by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #15946 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:07 < wumpus> ping @promag
11:07 < jonasschnelli> jonatack: thanks. Need to finalize the BIP first
11:07 < promag> MarcoFalke: it has only 3 concept ack, not sure if itw worth rebasing
11:07 < sipa> can i have #bitcoin-core-dev #20861 ?
11:07 < sipa> eh
11:07 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20861 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses by sipa · Pull Request #20861 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:07 < wumpus> although it's for chasing concept ACK so i don't think it matters if it's rebased for concept ack
11:07 < jamesob> MarcoFalke: oh maybe in addition to this thing - I forgot to update fuzz based on a new lock annotation
11:08 < wumpus> only for blockers
11:08 < promag> wumpus: right
11:08 < MarcoFalke> Also #19716 doesn't pass gitian, so can be removed as well? (Maybe replace by #21036 because it is blocked on that)?
11:08 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19716 | build: Qt 5.15.x by fanquake · Pull Request #19716 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:08 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21036 | gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0 by fanquake · Pull Request #21036 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:09 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: makes sense, done
11:10 < wumpus> any other topics?
11:10 < jonatack> #19145 has re-acks by provoostenator and I, seems close 
11:10 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19145 | Add hash_type MUHASH for gettxoutsetinfo by fjahr · Pull Request #19145 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:10 < MarcoFalke> topic: replace github?
11:10 < wumpus> jonatack: good to know, will have a look
11:11 < wumpus> #topic Replacing github
11:11 < core-meetingbot> topic: Replacing github
11:11 < jamesob> Oh boy
11:11 < wumpus> it's clear to me that this has to happen at some point but I don't think we found any projects ready for this
11:11 < jonasschnelli> didn't we had this topic recently?
11:12 < sipa> is there a concrete candidate to look at?
11:12 < wumpus> if there are, I'd suggest first setting up a parallel / mirror, so that people can try
11:12 < fjahr> It seems to be a constant topic since people get more and more frustrated
11:12 < wumpus> switching is not going to be a flag day thing
11:13 < MarcoFalke> sipa: Most of them seem "alpha" stage, so we'd have to play around with them
11:13 < luke-jr> was there a concrete problem with GitLab?
11:13 < dongcarl> Might this be an important enough thing that we should also look into building it ourselves / hacking existing open source solutions if none of the existing solutions work well enough?
11:13 < jamesob> I suspect that there will be even more frustration with an alternative. The big argument would be that github is a worrisome dependency to have
11:13 < wumpus> luke-jr: yes it's just another centralized thing
11:13 < promag> wont the alternative have other issues?
11:13 < aj> doing more tooling like gh-meta and ghwatch.py in the meantime seems like a good start?
11:13 < luke-jr> wumpus: eh, as opposed to what?
11:13 < jamesob> promag: right
11:13 < MarcoFalke> Funny, if GitHub had a simple moderator queue or other means of spam protection and a stable website, we probably wouln't be talking about this
11:14 < wumpus> aj:  right, that's my idea
11:14 < fjahr> Maybe there should be a wiki page to collect promising projects, then people post there experiences with mirrors
11:14 < fjahr> Obviously this will be a long way
11:14 < wumpus> luke-jr: git-appraise, radicle, git-bug, and various other systems that use git for propagation instead of relying (entirely) on central hosted infrastructure
11:14 < jonasschnelli> aj: good point.
11:14 < jonasschnelli> We can enhance the UX with custom tools
11:15 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: github and gitlab are hosted on the same infrastructure
11:15 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: same?
11:15 < jamesob> We get a ton of utility out of the PR review flow; something that both has that and isn't centralized is going to be tough to find I think 
11:15 < MarcoFalke> Though, it might be easier to build a two-way-mirror for review comments for gitlab
11:15 < wumpus> you can self-host gitlab or gitia etc but it'd be just another central server
11:15 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: google cloud?
11:15 < wumpus> we need something that doesn't rely on a contributor to host something IMO
11:16 < aj> wumpus: there's also bugseverywhere fwiw https://bugs-everywhere.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial.html
11:16 < wumpus> aj: ok definitely makes sense to keep track of these in a wiki
11:16 < wumpus> aj: this is too many for me to keep track of in my head :-)
11:16 < aj> wumpus: yeah, they're super hard to search for too
11:16 < aj> "git bug tracker"...
11:16 < fjahr> MarcoFalke: I don't think the infrastructure is causing the frustrations. Maybe the first question is: is the focus to fix usability issues with GH or to decentralize or we want to do both at the same time
11:17 < wumpus> I think we can do both at the same time
11:17 < wumpus> primarily it needs a sane way of doing code review that *doesn't* lose comments
11:18 < wumpus> this is the most serious issue with github, the collapsing comments and hidden diffs
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11:18 < MarcoFalke> fjahr: the infrastructure is the cause for centralization (and the risk of getting shut down at any time). IIRC some countries can't access github
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11:18 < fjahr> wumpus: maybe Gitlab doesn't lose comments, I don't know, but maybe that's a quick improvement on the usability front
11:19 < aj> MarcoFalke: they recently announced they'd opened back up to some of those countries iirc
11:19 < wumpus> fjahr: it's just not worth all the trouble of switching just to go to gitlab, you'll keep hopping
11:19 < MarcoFalke> aj: "some" ;)
11:19 < wumpus> aj: sure but who knows for how long the point is to not be dependent
11:19 < aj> MarcoFalke: one, maybe - https://github.blog/2021-01-05-advancing-developer-freedom-github-is-fully-available-in-iran/
11:20 < fjahr> MarcoFalke: agree, centralization is the same at GL but it might fix the losing comments issue which most recent frustrations seemed to come from
11:21 < jamesob> I'm guessing there'll be other unknown frustrations that pop up given GL isn't as actively developed as GH (AFAIK); and there is a pretty big cost to switching; CI integrations and drahtbot then need to be changed over
11:21 < jamesob> IMO we should be sure we want to move to whatever we move to
11:21 < luke-jr> (btw, disclosure: my web browsers have been compromised for months due to https://github.com/greatsuspender/thegreatsuspender/issues/1263 )
11:21 < MarcoFalke> wiki: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/GitHub-alternatives-for-Bitcoin-Core
11:21 < MarcoFalke> proudly hosted by GitHub
11:21 < fjahr> lol
11:21 < dongcarl> lol
11:21 < luke-jr> XD
11:22 < wumpus> jamesob: I agree, if we switch it needs to be with something we have control over ourselves and plan to stick with for a long time
11:22 < aj> MarcoFalke: i'm sure they'll remain proud to host it while it implies there's no alternatives to github?
11:22 < MarcoFalke> aj: Typing as we speak
11:23 < aj> heh
11:23 < luke-jr> lol
11:23 < aj> MarcoFalke: (missed opportunity to write "typing as i type")
11:23 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: thanks!
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11:24 < jnewbery> so were the meetings that fanquake/theuni/moneyball had with GH just a waste of time? They listened and then didn't actually fix anything that's important for us?
11:24 < wumpus> I think that concludes the topic for now, please look around if you find projects and try them out
11:25 < wumpus> jnewbery: I don't think it's a waste of time to discover what your requirements are, whoever implements them
11:25 < jnewbery> it's astonishing to me that one of the most important pieces of infrastructure for the open source community is owned by one of the most capitalized companies in the world and they can't even get a webpage to load
11:26 < luke-jr> eh, one with a long history of deceptive warfare against open source
11:26 < aj> jnewbery: i feel like you're overrating how competent humanity is at making computers work...
11:26 < wumpus> I mean, yes, they didn't really do much, but talking about things like that was probably constructive anyway
11:26 < promag> jnewbery: hold on, we have dark theme
11:26 < jnewbery> wumpus: I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't have tried (and I'm very grateful that they did!), but github don't seem to have done anything about the problems.
11:26 < michaelfolkson> It is Big Corp syndrome. Post acquisition the magic dies
11:27 < wumpus> jnewbery: agree on that
11:27 < jonasschnelli> didn't we had a direct contact with GitHub for a while?
11:27 < jamesob> promag: lol
11:27  * fjahr notes dark theme as hard requirement
11:27 < MarcoFalke> jonasschnelli: fanquake does have direct contact but they ignore him pretty much
11:27 < jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: build up pressure?
11:28 < MarcoFalke> (not judging them. They probably have paying clients)
11:28 < MarcoFalke> jonasschnelli: I don't think open source is a priority for them
11:28 < sipa> fjahr: GH has a dark theme
11:28 < jonasschnelli> IMO GitHub has its flaws,.. but I don't see a better alternative and GH is certenly better than just tracking everything in a txt file
11:28 < wumpus> I was a paying client but stopped paying when they were taken over by Microsoft
11:28 < aj> #15847 #20227 #16472 #13411 might be useful
11:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15847 | Feedback for GitHub CEO · Issue #15847 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20227 | Dependency on GitHub · Issue #20227 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16472 | Github started banning/restricting whole countries · Issue #16472 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13411 | Moving to self-hosted issue and patch management · Issue #13411 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:29 < jonasschnelli> thanks aj 
11:29 < fjahr> sipa: yeah, just for the switching candidates ;)
11:29 < sipa> ha yes
11:29 < promag> I wonder how would gitlab behave with big prs with tens of comments and code
11:29 < sipa> "tens of comments"
11:29 < jonatack> I don't think GitHub is incentized to make the changes that we would like; I suspect maintaining a very uniform UX is key for GitHub, which might preclude per-repo configurable feature toggling and adjustable interaction friction 
11:29 < sipa> there's literally dozens of us!
11:30 < promag> thousands
11:30 < sipa> i think this discussion should move to the wiki; there isn't much to do here expect looking for alternatives and evaluating them
11:30 < jonatack> GitHub's aim appears to be more faceBook than myspace in UX standardization
11:30 < promag> their api probably returns everything no?
11:30 < sipa> and getting back to the topic in a meeting in a few weeks maybe
11:30 < jonasschnelli> I suggest that moneyball take up the contact again (as of #15847)
11:30 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15847 | Feedback for GitHub CEO · Issue #15847 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:31 < wumpus> sipa: agree
11:31 < jamesob> jonatack: *adds myspace to list of alternatives*
11:31 < jonatack> which would explain why even dark theme took so long for GitHub to agree to do
11:31 < fjahr> jonatack: I they would load comments as well as fb that would be great :D
11:31 < wumpus> any other topics?
11:32 < wumpus> #endmeeting
11:32 < core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
11:32 < core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Feb  4 19:32:31 2021 UTC.  
11:32 < core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-02-04-19.01.moin.txt
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11:34 < michaelfolkson> Can I tentatively ask a question about Taproot activation? It appears to me there are three options for lockinontimeout
11:35 < michaelfolkson> Set to true in a Core release, set to false in a Core release or....
11:35 < michaelfolkson> Community consensus that a Core release will have false and this will be followed by another Core release in 6 months with true (if needed)
11:36 < michaelfolkson> Does that third option sound viable? Or would Core not want an instruction on what to do in 6 months?
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11:38 < sdaftuar> i would personally not agree with a commitment to release a consensus change at any specific point in the future.
11:39 < michaelfolkson> Ok thanks, that's helpful sdaftuar
11:39 < michaelfolkson> I don't want to discuss the merits of true, false. Go to #taproot-activation for that...
11:41 < michaelfolkson> If anyone else has any thought on that let me know. Thanks
11:41 < michaelfolkson> On that third option specifically
11:43 < jonatack> fjahr: oh, agreed. i use gh pr now for reading review comments via the cli; as of v1.5 it shows all of the comments with one cli command and is far faster to use. just takes getting used to. 
11:46 < fjahr> Yeah, thanks, I need to give it another chance
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12:52 < sipa> sdaftuar: impressive, you have a 100% acceptance rate on your bitcoin SE answers
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13:14 < sdaftuar> i strive for perfection
13:14 < sdaftuar> now if only my bip acceptance rate were so high... :)
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13:23 < aj> sdaftuar: maybe you should game the system and post your bips on stackoverflow?
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13:56 < luke-jr> sdaftuar: I can't suggest what to add to Motivation because I literally have no idea what the point is
13:56 < luke-jr> re https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1052
13:59 < sipa> sdaftuar, luke-jr: the second paragraph of sdaftuar's ML post about it (https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-January/018340.html) is probably a good start
14:00 < luke-jr> ah
14:01 < luke-jr> so the point is to allow N*M light connections where being unsure means only N could be accepted?
14:01 < luke-jr> (though IIRC our limits are due to FD set sizes and open fd limits currently?)
14:03 < sipa> luke-jr: my understanding is this: we have a default inbound connection limit (125) which is based on the observation that every "fully fledged" connection has a significant impact on processing costs and bandwidth (among other things), so we can't just raise that without impacting worst-case performance of average nodes
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14:04 < sipa> if we instead knew for block-only connections (on the incoming side) that they'd *never* need transactions, the worst part is reduced, and perhaps it becomes acceptable to have more incoming connections per peer, given that some percentage of them are reserved for non-block-relaying connections
14:05 < sipa> right now, the block-only nature of a connection is only known on the outbound side
14:05 < luke-jr> I see
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14:14 < sdaftuar> sipa: thank you for translating
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16:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #21083: wallet: Avoid requesting fee rates multiple times during coin selection (master...createtx-same-feerate) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21083
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16:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #21084: test: fix timeout decrease in feature_assumevalid (master...fix-timeout-assumevalid) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21084
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19:39 < sipa> sdaftuar: yw
20:03 < dr_orlovsky> sipa: are there any plans of creating BIP-43 new purpose for XCoordOnly pubkey derivation? I assume this is desirable since it is not recommended to use keys for Schnorr signatures in ECDSA
20:08 < sipa> dr_orlovsky: i have no interest in that
20:11 < dr_orlovsky> ok, but how do you think, is it required at all (as a support for "good practices"?)
20:13 < sipa> yeah, you'll probably want a separate bip32 path for P2TR outputs; but that has nothing to do with ECDSA/Schnorr; you just don't want to reuse the same keys
20:13 < sipa> i don't know if that needs a standard like BIP43 - perhaps it helps
20:14 < sipa> in general i prefer being explicit about usage using descriptors and similar things rather than making them implicitly dependent on the key path
20:14 < sipa> but i haven't thought very hard about this
20:15 < dr_orlovsky> clear, thank you
20:17 < sipa> you're right of course that using the same key in schnorr and ecdsa should be discouraged (i personally expect it is not less secure than just ecdsa with that key, but i also don't think anyone has formally analyzed this)... but in the context of bitcoin script signing, this advice is sort of preempted by the fact that you shouldn't be reusing keys _at all_ for whatever purpose
20:19 < dr_orlovsky> wouldn't tagging key with its own hash for P2TR prevent key reuse with ECDSA anyway?
20:19 < dr_orlovsky> *tagging -> tweaking
20:20 < sipa> yes, but not in a meaningful way
20:20 < sipa> they'd still be related keys
20:20 < dr_orlovsky> true
20:20 < dr_orlovsky> you will have a ECDSA->tweaked taproot simple derivation so you can index blockchain
20:21 < sipa> i guess that means this whole point is moot, and we should probably have a deep look at proving security of ECDSA and Schnorr signatures of linearly related keys (as those created by P2C-tweaking or BIP32 derivation result)
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20:21 < sipa> i can't imagine that this poses problems, but it'd be good to formally prove it
20:22 < sipa> because say hardware wallets may use one root key for both ecdsa and schnorr signing, even if that happens through separate subtrees
20:23 < dr_orlovsky> wouldn't hardened derivation cancel any potential correlation?
20:24 < dr_orlovsky> so BIP43-type new purpose value for P2TR will be a good solution in this respect as well?
20:24 < sipa> ah, does it use hardened derivation at that step? i'm not familiar with these standards
20:24 < sipa> in that case, yes, indeed
20:24 < dr_orlovsky> it does
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23:33 < wumpus> sipa: that's a very good description, i've often wondered if we could increase the default maximum number of connections if we could somehow limit the resources every single one can take, this is a good general improvement
23:35 < wumpus> (the other approach would be the micro-management side, e.g. scoring, but a negotiation phase in which some kinds of more expensive messages are already explicitly disallowed makes a lot of sense)
23:49 < wumpus> jamesob | jonatack: *adds myspace to list of alternatives* <- kidding aside i have wondered at times whether github is close enough to a social network that layering something like it on top of say, fediverse or matrix protocol would make sense
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23:52 < wumpus> it would have some advantages compared to e-mail e.g. moderation features, not as much baggage regarding existing clients, easy federation, structured messages
23:55 < wumpus> i'm sure someone thought of this before
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 05 00:00:36 2021