--- Log opened Tue Apr 20 00:00:01 2021
--- Day changed Tue Apr 20 2021
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00:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21238: A few descriptor improvements to prepare for Taproot support (master...202102_descriptor_prepare_taproot) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21238
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00:12 < MarcoFalke> looks like ci is red
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00:12 < MarcoFalke> There was a silent merge conflict
00:13 < MarcoFalke> script/descriptor.cpp:498:16: error: parameter 'script' not found in the function declaration [-Werror,-Wdocumentation]
00:13 < wumpus> strange, i did build locally
00:17 < MarcoFalke> Maybe Wdoc only works on a specific compiler?
00:17 < MarcoFalke> wumpus: Obviously not blaming you. It is impossible to find all silent merge conflicts.
00:18 < wumpus> my compiler (clang 13) does accept the flag, no idea if it does anything with it
00:19 < wumpus> right it's just that i try to be careful to avoid them by always running the build + tests locally, but definitely cannot do so for every platform / compiler combo
00:20 < wumpus> anyhow i'll do a PR...
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00:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #21736: doc: Fix doxygen comment silent merge conflict in descriptor.cpp (master...2021-04-parameter-documentation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21736
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00:48 < wumpus> it looks like my compiler does have the warning enabled, it is just not fatal, i've had bad experiences with Werror in the past (due to divergence between compiler versions) but will try enabling --enable-suppress-external-warnings --enable-werror locally maybe it is better now
00:52 < aj> wumpus: those options work for me fwiw
00:53 < wumpus> aj: i don't doubt they work :) the problem is that the set of warnings very much differs between compilers, it is often that new gcc has some new warnings
00:54 < wumpus> or clang for that matter (thinking of the locking annotation warnings)
00:55 < aj> wumpus: yep
00:55 < wumpus> so it is not a guarantee in any case, there might be local failures due to this that do not arise in the CI and the other way around
00:55 < aj> wumpus i took the release cadence date stuff to be referring to 23.0 not 22.0 fwiw
00:56 < wumpus> let's discuss that at the time we are planning the 23.0 date then, that will only be after the 22.0 release
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00:56 < aj> wumpus: yeah
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01:21 < wumpus> definitely agree with the principle that planning a release around xmas is a bad idea
01:21 < wumpus> december tends to be a really quiet month in bitcoin dev
01:26 < MarcoFalke> yeah, it might be good to aim for October (or earlier) as a release month, as November might often delay into December
01:30 < MarcoFalke> Also branch-off right at the start of the new year might not be good either. Better wait till February (or later) to give reviewers some time to make up for the lack of review during December
01:32 < wumpus> october seems really early for 0.23?
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01:33 < wumpus> or do you mean for 22, that doesn't make sense to me either (postpone it by two months?)
01:33 < MarcoFalke> Could aim for February 2022?
01:33 < MarcoFalke> No need to change the 0.22 timeline
01:33 < MarcoFalke> I think that is already set pretty much
01:34 < wumpus> feb for 0.23 that would make sense (but as said, let's discuss 0.23 timeline when we get there)
01:35 < MarcoFalke> sure, just wanted to mention that 0.22+6 months collides with December ;)
01:36 < fanquake> yea -Wdocumentation requires --enable-suppress-external-warnings to be enabled
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01:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/906ecb87c8c7...572b36d4ff99
01:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e5faec6 W. J. van der Laan: doc: Fix doxygen comment silent merge conflict in descriptor.cpp
01:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 572b36d MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21736: doc: Fix doxygen comment silent merge conflic...
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01:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21736: doc: Fix doxygen comment silent merge conflict in descriptor.cpp (master...2021-04-parameter-documentation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21736
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01:45 < MarcoFalke> reset all failed ci builds from the last two hours
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01:47 < wumpus> harding: your taproot activation write-up seems very clear to me, i'll leave it on the wiki for a few days so people can make corrections if they think that is necessary, then add it to the release notes on the 0.21 branch
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03:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #19213: util: Get rid of RecursiveMutex in Get{Blocks,Data}Dir (master...200608-path-mx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19213
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03:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21738: test: Use clang-12 for ASAN, Add missing suppression (master...2104-asan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21738
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04:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/572b36d4ff99...30a86bb814e3
04:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master de17d24 dplusplus1024: Re-add command to install vcpkg
04:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 30a86bb MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21733: build: Re-add command to install vcpkg
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04:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21733: build: Re-add command to install vcpkg (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21733
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05:00 < ShapeShifter499> hi
05:01 < ShapeShifter499> so I have a question about the client.  I'm on linux and I'm wondering does it matter what Berkeley Database Bitcoin is compiled against if I want to recover old wallets?
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05:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/30a86bb814e3...018045347110
05:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master db4d2c2 Jon Atack: cli: create AddrinfoRequestHandler class
05:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5056a37 Jon Atack: cli: add -addrinfo command
05:37 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bb85cbc Jon Atack: doc: add cli -addrinfo release note
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05:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21595: cli: create -addrinfo (master...addressinfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21595
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05:42 < wumpus> hebasto: sorry for only noticing this now in #21694 btw while i commented on the gitignore before :)
05:42 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21694 | build: Use XLIFF file to provide more context to Transifex translators by hebasto · Pull Request #21694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
05:43 < hebasto> wumpus: does this mean that src/qt/locale/bitcoin_en.xlf should be a part of the repo?
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06:02 < wumpus> hebasto: if it is what you want transifex to read, yes
06:02 < hebasto> wumpus: thanks for explanation
06:04 < wumpus> e.g. the auto-update URL for 0.21.x right now in the transifex interface is : https://raw.githubusercontent.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/master/src/qt/locale/bitcoin_en.ts
06:04 < wumpus> oh i should change that to the branch
06:06 < wumpus> thanks for making me check, it is not good if it keeps updating from master and the translations diverge
06:07 < hebasto> wumpus: nice that everything is ok now
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06:38 < wumpus> btw; do we still need bitcoin_en.ts *at all* now? i think its only goal was to provide it to transifex? or is it used for other things as well?
06:40 < wumpus> hmm i guess it is embedded in the binary but is effectively a no-op]
06:43 < hebasto> is it used to generate `bitcoin_en.qm` for `QObject::tr()`?
06:45 < hebasto> yes. in en_US locale it is no-op :)
06:45 < wumpus> that seems a very useless thing to do :) but sure it might anyway
06:46 < wumpus> but yeah, let's leave it like that for this PR, no need to touch that
06:46 < hebasto> ok
06:50 < wumpus> i hope we'll still get .ts translations back from transifex with tx pull 
06:51 < hebasto> we'll find out :)
06:51 < wumpus> if not the maintainer-tools/update-translations.py script will need to convert too
06:52 < wumpus> we'll find out for 22.0 i suppose (no good reason to backport this)
06:53 < hebasto> agree
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07:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/018045347110...90e0faaa442b
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2045e4c Hennadii Stepanov: build: Use XLIFF file to provide more context to Transifex translators
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f959b75 Hennadii Stepanov: build: Add Qt lconvert tool to depends
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 99686b6 Hennadii Stepanov: qt [experimental]: Add a translation comment and a disambiguation string
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07:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21694: build: Use XLIFF file to provide more context to Transifex translators (master...210415-xliff) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21694
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07:29 < wumpus> btw we might want to do future translation-related changes in the gui repository
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07:32 < hebasto> because they will touch the qt/ directory only?
07:32 < wumpus> yes, and because translation is only done for the GUI 
07:34 < wumpus> i guess the exception is messages from bitcoind that get translated as well, but i mean changes that only affect src/qt sources yes
07:35 < hebasto> #21463, for example, is mixed qt and non-qt
07:35 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21463 | doc: Address feedback from Transifex translator community by hebasto · Pull Request #21463 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:45 < wumpus> yes, agree
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08:01 < jeremyrubin> Would anyone be opposed to adding an address type for OP_RETURN?
08:01 < jeremyrubin> I don't think they should be universally available, but it can be kind of annoying working in generic code that you can't get an address for an OP_RETURN output
08:04 < jeremyrubin> I guess this is better suited for mailing list...
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08:13 < luke-jr> addresses define a recipient. OP_RETURN doesn't have a recipient.
08:13 < jeremyrubin> then why can I pay a P2SH OP_RETURN and that has an address?
08:13 < luke-jr> furthermore, OP_RETURN should not be used except to represent something else more specific; that something else perhaps might need an address, which would then be impeded by a generic OP_RETURN address by folks who think there should only be one possible address per script
08:14 < luke-jr> there is no such thign as a P2SH OP_RETURN
08:14 < jeremyrubin> Howso?
08:14 < jeremyrubin> i can create a p2sh op_return quite easily
08:14 < luke-jr> OP_RETURN as a transaction type is defined as a scriptPK that begins with OP_RETURN
08:15 < jeremyrubin> That's beside the point
08:15 < jeremyrubin> [4/20/21 08:13] <luke-jr> addresses define a recipient. OP_RETURN doesn't have a recipient.
08:15 < luke-jr> you can't prove on-chain that a P2SH contains an OP_RETURN, and such an output will enter the database
08:15 < belcher> you could create it but why would you? op_return is used for embedding data but if that data is hashed behind a p2sh then it cant even do that(?)
08:15 < luke-jr> belcher: it's supposed to only be used for embedding hashes; one extra layer doesn't impede that
08:15 < luke-jr> but the P2SH does impede being able to prune it
08:16 < jeremyrubin> i'm less worried about the pay-to support, more worried about the parsing of data generically 
08:16 < pinheadmz> jeremyrubin could propose to define a segwit version `16` (for example) that decodes to <OP_RETURN> <data>
08:16 < luke-jr> and prunability is what distinguishes OP_RETURN from other unspendable outputs
08:17 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: it sounds like your undefined use case really ought to use raw scripts, not addresses
08:17 < jeremyrubin> not really
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08:17 < jeremyrubin> I want to split out "is this something we know about" or "is this some custom thing entirely"
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08:17 < luke-jr> there's no distinction in this case
08:18 < luke-jr> OP_RETURN is some custom thing entirely
08:18 < jeremyrubin> Every p2sh is also some custom thing
08:18 < jeremyrubin> because a p2sh can contain an OP_RETURN <blah>
08:18 < luke-jr> beside the point
08:18 < jeremyrubin> That is the point
08:19 < luke-jr> anyway, I think I've gone over the reasons not to do it afaik.
08:19 < jeremyrubin> If i can try to explain it back...
08:20 < jeremyrubin> We should only have addresses or descriptors for things we know exactly what they are, and also for things that represent something that is not only payable but also potentially spendable.
08:21 < jeremyrubin> OP_RETURN, being unspendable and usually proprietary in purpose, should not have an address 
08:22 < jeremyrubin> Is that a correct restatement of your concern?
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08:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dongcarl closed pull request #18963: [WIP] rebase: Call ProcessNewBlock() asynchronously (master...2020-05-async-pnb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18963
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10:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/90e0faaa442b...bca00942ed27
10:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f02ca7a Aaron Clauson: Update msvc build to use Qt5.12.10 binaries.
10:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bca0094 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21731: Update msvc build to use Qt5.12.10 binaries.
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10:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21731: Update msvc build to use Qt5.12.10 binaries. (master...msvc_qt5.12.10) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21731
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10:20 < jnewbery> Hi folks. Reminder that we have a p2p irc meeting in about 3.5 hours. Feel free to share your priorities here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/P2P-Current-Priorities and add suggested topics here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/P2P-IRC-meetings
10:21 < jnewbery> We currently have two suggested topics: Reduce addr blackholes (PR 21528) (Amiti)
10:21 < jnewbery> Moving forward with asmap (gleb)
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10:36 < jeremyrubin> Out of curiosity; is it possible to construct a Script as hex which is also an address?
10:37 < jeremyrubin> AFAIK, in binary it should be possible, but not as hex
10:44 < hebasto> wumpus: re "oh i should change that to the branch" -- I received Transifex notification about updated content. Is this it?
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13:14 < ariard> jnewbery: yeah would like to propose "irc meetings on better L2s onchain support" as a topic but don't have the rights on wiki :/
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13:20 < bitcoin-git> [gui] hebasto merged pull request #263: Revamp context menus (master...210330-context) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/263
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13:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bca00942ed27...f385ad765174
13:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1398a65 Hennadii Stepanov: qt, refactor: Make AddressBookPage::deleteAction a local variable
13:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 963e120 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Drop menu separator that separates nothing
13:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7931175 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Do not assign Alt+<KEY> shortcuts to context menu actions
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13:39 < amiti> ariard: added it for you
13:43 < ariard> amiti: thanks! 
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14:01 < jnewbery> #startmeeting
14:01 < core-meetingbot> Meeting started Tue Apr 20 21:01:33 2021 UTC.  The chair is jnewbery. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
14:01 < core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
14:01 < amiti> hi
14:01 < ajonas> hi
14:01 < jnewbery> hi folks
14:01 < ariard> hi
14:01 < gleb> Hi
14:01 < lightlike> hi
14:02 < jnewbery> As a reminder, everyone is free to share their p2p priorities here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/P2P-Current-Priorities
14:02 < promag> hi
14:02 < jnewbery> We also have three proposed topics for today's meeting:  https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/P2P-IRC-meetings#20-apr-2021
14:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20 | JSON-RPC callback · Issue #20 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
14:02 < jnewbery> - Reduce addr blackholes (PR 21528) (Amiti)
14:02 < jnewbery> - Moving forward with asmap (gleb)
14:02 < jnewbery> - irc meetings on better L2s onchain support (ariard)
14:03 < jnewbery> Does anyone have any other proposed topics to add?
14:04 < jnewbery> oops, forgot
14:04 < jnewbery> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik 
14:04 < jnewbery> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
14:04 < jnewbery> alright, let's get into the first topic
14:04 < jnewbery> #topic Reduce addr blackholes (amiti)
14:04 < core-meetingbot> topic: Reduce addr blackholes (amiti)
14:05 < amiti> hi! 
14:05 < amiti> I want to discuss #21528 
14:05 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21528 | [p2p] Reduce addr blackholes by amitiuttarwar · Pull Request #21528 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
14:05 < amiti> I've mentioned it in a few different places, but I'll start with an overview of goals & motivation
14:05 < amiti> The goal is to reduce addr blackholes- aka relaying self advertisements to peers who are unlikely to continue relaying it to the network. Doing so would be a standalone improvement for addr propagation, and also, in my opinion, help with the disabletx project.
14:06 < amiti> The PR serves as a proof of concept for how this can be implemented in Bitcoin Core, but is currently in a draft because I have been trying to build confidence that this wouldn’t harm other software on the network. 
14:06 < amiti> I wrote to the mailing list: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018784.html, and have not gotten any responses there 
14:07 < amiti> I’ve also looked at the implementations of every other client I’ve heard of =P and been recording that here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21528#issuecomment-809906430
14:07 < amiti> looks like almost all other clients are definitely ok. the only one I was very confused about is bitcore, so I'm hoping someone will respond to the issue I opened
14:08 < amiti> so, my main question for today is- do people think its reasonable for me to move forward with these changes? aka bring the PR into a "ready for review" state ?
14:08 < ariard> does it document bitcoinj, it's still maintained afaik?
14:08 < gleb> It looks like the stuff I attempted to do around a year ago, and at the time I also concluded it won't hurt other software.
14:08 < amiti> bitcoinj is not on the list. will look & add 
14:08 < jnewbery> Yes, concept ACK
14:08 < amiti> gleb: what did you attempt? 
14:09 < amiti> oh, another link is to a previous bitcoin-dev meeting where we discussed: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2021-03-25.html#l-954
14:09 < gleb> amiti: stop forwarding addr to nodes when it's useless.
14:10 < amiti> gleb: what did you try? did you PR? 
14:10 < ariard> imo that's okay to move "ready for review", if no one yells on the ml and main bitcoin libraries are behaving like core
14:10 < gleb> amiti: I had a PR #17194, a core meeting discussion and several ML posts.
14:11 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17194 | p2p: Avoid forwarding ADDR messages to SPV nodes by naumenkogs · Pull Request #17194 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
14:11 < amiti> gleb: thanks! I didn't realize :) 
14:11 < gleb> The PR is only covers a subset of stuff I was suggesting
14:12 < gleb> I'll take a look and probably close mine, in case your work auguments it.
14:12 < amiti> cool, I'll check it out 
14:12 < sipa> amiti: where did you land on sending/nonsending to non-relay peers? i remember you had some comments for sdaftuar_
14:12 < sipa> *from
14:13 < jnewbery> gleb: your PR disables addr relay based on the service bits sent by the peer. amiti's enables addr relay based on previous addr/getaddr messages received from the peer
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14:13 < amiti> I'm still exploring the approach of not sending to non-relay peers
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14:14 < amiti> sdaftuar expressed concern that if there is other software that doesn't send addr/getaddr messages but are relying on addr messages to discover peers, this change could make them vulnerable to a poor addrman / eclipse attacks 
14:14 < sipa> but that's what the PR does?
14:14 < amiti> sipa: what? 
14:15 < lightlike> I think an important difference is that the new PR would prevent sending to peers for whom we are their block-relay-only peer.
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14:15 < sipa> amiti: not announcing to (assumed to be) non-relaying peers
14:15 < amiti> sipa: correct
14:15 < amiti> sipa: sorry, I don't understand your question
14:16 < sipa> amiti: just wanted to make sure i was up to date on the approach
14:16 < jnewbery> sipa: does "non-relaying peers" = "inbound block-relay-only peers" ?
14:17 < amiti> some context for the group: an alternative approach would be to identify "potential blackholes" and then add redundancy if those are selected. eg if you intend to relay to 2 peers but select a "potential blackhole", additionally relay to another peer 
14:17 < sipa> jnewbery: an alternative approach would be still sending addr messages to everyone, but treat some subset as non-relaying (and thus not counting towards the 1 or 2 relay slots)
14:17 < jnewbery> sipa: ah. Got it. Thanks
14:18 < sipa> jnewbery: which would less risky for the network, but in my opinion weakly exploitable
14:18 < jnewbery> 'for the network' seems vague
14:18 < sipa> if we're confident this won't break anything, the current approach has my preference
14:18 < amiti> that is also my preference :) 
14:19 < jnewbery> it'd be less risky for peers that want to receive addrs but don't ask for addrs, or am I missing some transitive behaviour?
14:19 < sipa> jnewbery: software that doesn't getaddr or send addrs, but still relies on receiving addresses
14:19 < sipa> jnewbery: i don't expect such software to exist, but it's also hard to be certain
14:19 < jnewbery> sipa: yep, that's my understanding
14:20 < amiti> I don't see much indication we will break things. I'll check bitcoinj and hope to hear back from bitcore, but beyond that I don't think there's much else I can do from my end 
14:20 < sipa> ok
14:20 < jnewbery> I think amiti is doing a good job at analyzing the possible risk here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21528#issuecomment-809906430
14:20 < ariard> at least ml + libraries inquiry let's build confidence, do we have other methods to improve such opinion?
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14:21 < sipa> no, there is only so much we can do
14:21 < jnewbery> Great. Anything else on that, or shall we move to next topic?
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14:21 < amiti> just to conclude -
14:21 < amiti> I'll continue moving forward. if anyone has outstanding concerns, please let me know :) 
14:22 < amiti> thanks! 
14:22 < jnewbery> amiti: great. Thank you!
14:22 < jnewbery> #topic Moving forward with asmap (gleb)
14:22 < core-meetingbot> topic: Moving forward with asmap (gleb)
14:22 < gleb> We (me and sipa) want to move asmap forward and the main question is how to enable it by default. So far one priority is to help the maintainer to keep track of the BGP topology state updates.
14:22 < gleb> Basically, the maintainer would have to re-generate the compressed BGP topology map (asmap) for distribution and make sure it’s valid.
14:23 < gleb> There’s also testing of the existing tools and code in the Core, feel free to help:
14:23 < gleb> https://blog.bitmex.com/call-to-action-testing-and-improving-asmap/
14:23 < gleb> Once these tools are ready and stable, we will be able to enable it by default I think. Let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions for other TODO to make progress here, otherwise I’m done.
14:24 < ariard> Who is maintainer here ? bitcoin core or asmap tooling one?
14:24 < gleb> Bitcoin Core maintainers, every core release probably should get a new asmap file
14:24 < gleb> To maintain the best p2p robustness of the nodes.
14:24 < jeremyrubin> hi
14:25 < sipa> one critical component i think is tooling to produce human-readable diffs between asmap files
14:25 < sipa> because they can't be deterministically produced
14:26 < gleb> Yeah, everyone should be able to check the diff between the two easily.
14:27 < ariard> so it's about finishing asmap-rs as a functional bitcoin-asmap ?
14:27 < gleb> I think sipa still doesn't like rust, so we might end up using smething different...
14:28 < gleb> But basically yes, improving the tools.
14:28 < ariard> i think language choice is ultimately decided by who is maintaining the tool :p
14:29 < sipa> i certainly don't mind having good tooling in another language than one i'm familiar with, if it"s maintained
14:30 < gleb> I think I can commit to maintaining asmap-rs, but then, should we also translate sipa/asmap (compression part) into it?
14:30 < gleb> No need to answer now, I'll think about it after the meeting.
14:31 < ariard> gleb: nah you can link *.c/*.cpp in rust, we can talk about it in rust-bitcoin if you wanna
14:31 < gleb> alright, i'll check how nasty that is :)
14:32 < jnewbery> ariard: I don't think that's the problem. The question seems to be whether we should add some dependency on maintaining a rust tool to our release process.
14:32 < sipa> the only thing we neef reusable or usable from within Bitcoin Core is decoding/querying support, and we have that
14:33 < sipa> sure, it'd be nice if some tool shipped with core and possibly built from shared sources could do encoding too and other things, but i don't think that's a critical requirement
14:33 < ariard> jnewbery: yes as i'm planning to have rust dependency for altnet, if you think that's a real issue to have dependency in rust, let's have a discussion during main meeting?
14:33 < ariard> i think it was a subject a year ago
14:33 < sipa> those things just need to be available and usable
14:34 < jnewbery> ok, anything else on this topic, or move on?
14:35 < gleb> i think we can move on
14:35 < sipa> yeah
14:35 < jnewbery> #topic irc meetings on better L2s onchain support (ariard)
14:35 < core-meetingbot> topic: irc meetings on better L2s onchain support (ariard)
14:35 < ariard> hi!
14:36 < ariard> it has been a recurring topic among LN devs how to improve second-layer protocol layer by the base layer
14:36 < glozow> hi
14:36 < ariard> as current tx-relay and fee-bumping aren't really accurate
14:37 < ariard> we have the idea last year to do a share meeting between ln/core dev in 2021, but it doesn't seem it's going to be a thing even this year
14:37 < ariard> so instead, i'm working on setting up a bunch of  irc meeting to talk about stuff like dust, full-rbf, package relay, standardness, coordinated security disclosures
14:38 < ariard> started a new repo about problem space there : https://github.com/ariard/L2-zoology
14:38 < ariard> and will do an announcement on the ml latter this week about process
14:38 < ariard> feel free to contribute if you're interested by those topics :)
14:39 < gleb> ariard: i think to motivate people to come, you (or any coordinator) should be really clear on how this is going to be useful, what are the possible useful outcomes, and why this stuff is blocker for L2 protocols.
14:39 < sipa> i think it would be useful if this was more concrete
14:39 < ariard> gleb: yes how this is going to be useful is described in threats/ performance/ section of new repo, possible useful outcomes are changes like full-rbf or package-relay
14:39 < ariard> but sure we'll make this really clear in ml post
14:40 < glozow> i'd be interested in seeing some simulations of attacks
14:41 < sipa> people (ariard in particular) oftrn brings up issues of unreliability or certain lack of guarantees offered by the p2p protocol and its current implementations, but it's hard to discuss thst in general as there simply can't be any guarantees really, and other layers need to be aware of that... bit that doesn't mean we can't have useful discussions about specific features or so
14:41 < ariard> glozow: yes we can try them on signet or mainet, main issue is having a realistic mempool, with sudden spikes
14:42 < sipa> so it would be much more interesting to me at least to discuss specific features or proposals for the p2p protocol
14:42 < ariard> sipa: i know this non-reliability point would  be the starter point for such irc meetings
14:42 < sipa> rather than "fee bumping is insufficient"
14:42 < ariard> like there is quite a divide among L1 and L2 devs, and afaik matt or rusty I'm leaning toward more reliability expectations
14:43 < ariard> sipa: see rusty point here : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13283#issuecomment-398654468
14:43 < ariard> sipa: ultimately if we release something like package relay we have a question on the L2-side, is how much stability we can expect of such mechanism
14:44 < sipa> ariard: yeah the vbyte thing wasn't done as well as it could have been
14:44 < sipa> ariard: you can't expect transactions to be relayed, period
14:44 < sipa> they're likely to be, and we can discuss what will work in non-adverserial settings likely
14:45 < ariard> sipa: i agree, the best you can hope is an economic compatible tx-relay policy widely deployed on the network like bip125
14:45 < sipa> i'm afraid that economic compatibility is very hard without something like partial blocks
14:46 < sipa> because network bandwidth costs are ultimately in contradiction with always relaying the economically optimal final state
14:46 < ariard> sipa: by stability I didn't mean "every-full-node on the network must support it" more Core devs are not going to deprecate future or introduce api change break without some release process
14:46 < ariard> sipa: i don't know about partial blocks?
14:46 < sipa> oh, certainly
14:46 < glozow> er, what does economic compatible tx relay mean?
14:47 < sipa> glozow: say a tx is bumped by 1 satoshi in fee
14:47 < ariard> glozow: let's define better as incentive-compatible, apply this policy will increase your mempool feerate
14:48 < sipa> it won't get relayed by bitcoin core, because it's below the marginal feerate (the cost of relaying over the network is considered larger than what it's paying extra
14:48 < jnewbery> ariard: I don't think that's even it. incentive-compatible would mean that this policy increases the total fee of the top block's worth of transactions in your mempool
14:49 < sipa> glozow: but it is economically still better for miners to get that transaction; miner want it, but the network has no incentive to relay it
14:49 < sipa> that's a conflict, and the only general solution for it i know of is partial blocks
14:49 < ariard> jnewbery: i think accepting higher-feerate replacement transaction increase the odds to mine a higher fee block in the future?
14:50 < amiti> what is the goal from today's discussion?
14:50 < sipa> where miners broadcast partial solutions to PoW over the network (say at 1/10th the difficulty) to prove to the network "there is likely a significant portion of PoW working on this block"
14:50 < sipa> that would provide a natural incentive to switch mempools to the contents of such a blocm
14:50 < glozow> sipa: i see, thank you
14:51 < jnewbery> ariard: that's not incentive compatible for a miner. They only care about the contents of the next block.
14:51 < ariard> amiti: getting the feedbacks of folks here if they would like to participate to such meetings, once we have a clear scope :)
14:52 < glozow> oh cool, similar to like mining pool partial solutions for reward shares
14:52 < jnewbery> ariard: when are you planning to do this irc meeting?
14:52 < glozow> like broadcasting "this is the block i'm working on" before finding the solution
14:52 < sipa> glozow: indeed
14:53 < ariard> jnewbery: depends of your miner model? even if they loss the race to mine next block, they are still willingly to optimize fee of following blocks
14:53 < jnewbery> any final topics before we wrap up?
14:53 < ariard> jnewbery: end of may/june
14:53 < jnewbery> ariard: thanks!
14:53 < ariard> i'm done, thanks for your feedbacks :)
14:53 < sipa> glozow: and partial PoW means a natural rate limit for such partial blovks
14:54 < glozow> ariard: I'm interested in such a meeting if you're able to coordinate a time
14:54 < glozow> apart from that, I'll keep an eye on the docs in your repo, and am interested in turning some of them into functional tests or simulations for a more concrete measure of the attacks
14:54 < ariard> glozow: coool let me get back to you to do simulation of attacks!
14:54 < amiti> I'd be happy to participate if there was a clear scope, agenda & goals. I agree with sipa that its hard to make much progress in a purely abstract conversation.
14:55 < amiti> (around p2p guarantees) 
14:55 < darosior> ariard: (re-mentioning here) happy to participate too
14:55 < ariard> amiti: that's the reason of braindumping in a repo to avoid abstract conversation (and working on attacks simulation)
14:55 < amiti> cool! 
14:56 < jnewbery> seems like that's all. Thanks everyone!
14:56 < jnewbery> #endmeeting
14:56 < core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
14:56 < core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Tue Apr 20 21:56:09 2021 UTC.  
14:56 < core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-04-20-21.01.moin.txt
14:56 < glozow> thanks jnewbery
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15:08 < bitcoin-git> [gui] RandyMcMillan closed pull request #147: splash: New layout (master...splash) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/147
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15:08 < bitcoin-git> [gui] RandyMcMillan closed pull request #208: docs: update README notes for /interfaces (master...interfaces-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/208
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15:09 < bitcoin-git> [gui] RandyMcMillan closed pull request #231: splash: new layout and new icon (master...new-icon) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/231
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18:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] windsok opened pull request #21740: test: add new python linter test for checking filenames and file permissions (master...file-permissions-linter) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21740
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22:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #21687: p2p: 1 IP per-connection policy (master...ameer_prevent_duplicate_connections_from_same_ip) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21687
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22:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f385ad765174...2bce9329e8b9
22:25 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faabeb8 MarcoFalke: refactor: Mark member functions const
22:25 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fafb68a MarcoFalke: refactor: Add and use EnsureConnman in rpc code
22:25 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2bce932 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21719: refactor: Add and use EnsureConnman in rpc co...
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22:26 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21719: refactor: Add and use EnsureConnman in rpc code (master...2104-netConnman) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21719
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22:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2bce9329e8b9...e507acb1184f
22:27 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7abac98 Anthony Towns: configure: Support -f{debug,macro}-prefix-map
22:27 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e507acb fanquake: Merge #20353: configure: Support -fdebug-prefix-map and -fmacro-prefix-map...
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22:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #20353: configure: Support -fdebug-prefix-map and -fmacro-prefix-map (master...202011-ccache-debug-prefix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20353
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 21 00:00:32 2021