--- Log opened Thu Apr 22 00:00:33 2021
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00:28 < aj> jnewbery: too many caps
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00:39 < jnewbery> oh sorry, you're right. It's just Assume()
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00:53 < jnewbery> wumpus: MarcoFalke: I think #21009 is ready for merge. Two ACKs on the current branch, and additional ACKs on recent branches from jonatack and ariard.
00:53 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21009 | Remove RewindBlockIndex logic by dhruv · Pull Request #21009 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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00:55 < fanquake> jnewbery: The PR description at least needs rewriting, as it's no longer correct
00:55 < fanquake> i.e mentions "This PR introduces NeedsIBD()", and there is no NeedsIBD func introduced. 
00:57 < fanquake> s/rewriting/updating
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02:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21749: test: Bump shellcheck version (master...210422-shell) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21749
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02:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vasild opened pull request #21750: net: remove unnecessary check of CNode::cs_vSend (master...remove_unnecessary_check_of_CNode_cs_vSend) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21750
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02:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] d8n77ru57 opened pull request #21751: Update nodes_main.txt (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21751
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02:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #21751: Update nodes_main.txt (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21751
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02:45 < fanquake> Am I missing something with the opening of description-less PRs, just to fill the description in shortly after?
02:45 < fanquake> Why not just open it with the description, and avoid potential questions. i.e :https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21749#discussion_r618227797
02:55 < hebasto> fanquake: sorry for that, it was opened as a draft
03:06 < aj> https://lwn.net/Articles/853717/ yikes
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03:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21752: scripted-diff: Clarify that feerates are per virtual size (master...2104-docFee) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21752
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03:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e7776e20ed0d...aaf66413e123
03:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5858057 practicalswift: net: Add IPv4ToString (we already have IPv6ToString)
03:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 58580a8 practicalswift: net: Avoid calling getnameinfo when formatting IPv4 addresses in CNetAddr:...
03:31 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master aaf6641 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21564: net: Avoid calling getnameinfo when formattin...
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03:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21564: net: Avoid calling getnameinfo when formatting IPv4 addresses in CNetAddr::ToStringIP (master...simplify-ipv4-address-formatting) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21564
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03:41 < jnewbery> fanquake: thanks. I've asked dhruv to update the description
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04:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/aaf66413e123...4b5659c6b115
04:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ce994e1 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: add tx modfication helper function in feature_cltv.py
04:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8d0ce50 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: prepare cltv_invalidate to test all failure reasons in feature_cltv....
04:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dbc1981 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: check that _all_ invalid-CLTV txs are allowed in a block pre-BIP65
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04:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19801: test: check for all possible OP_CLTV fail reasons in feature_cltv.py (BIP 65) (master...20200825-test-check-all-failure-reasons-for-CLTV) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19801
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04:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #21753: doc: add -addrinfo to tor docs (master...tor-doc-addrinfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21753
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05:31 < provoostenator> Alright,  I marked the external signer GUI PR  as ready for review... https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/4
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08:11 < dhruvm> fanquake: jnewbery: Updated #21009 description.
08:11 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21009 | Remove RewindBlockIndex logic by dhruv · Pull Request #21009 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21754: test: Run feature_cltv with MiniWallet (master...2104-testCltvNoWallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21754
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08:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] prayank23 opened pull request #21755: Add more info about prefix in error message for invalid address (master...error-address) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21755
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08:32 < jnewbery> thanks dhruvm
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10:00 < yanmaani> In the test framework, is there any way to import a specific private key and use it as change?
10:01 < yanmaani> There's an arg "keypool" in importmulti, but it says "Only allowed when wallet private keys are disabled"
10:04 < jeremyrubin> MarcoFalke: was curious if you have any advice on where I should create/put test vectors for BIP-119
10:05 < jeremyrubin> There seems to be like 5 different places static test vectors go, including a separate repo
10:05 < jeremyrubin> Someone asked for me to make them, which is actually very easy, but deciding where they go is not as simple
10:05 < jeremyrubin> Also it's not clear if they are in the QA repo if i need to make my branch do a submodule update or something?
10:06 < yanmaani> also, I don't even get the error thrown when I try to import privkeys into it
10:07 < yanmaani> Is it even possible, or should I just make a wallet.dat file with the keys hardcoded?
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11:14 < MarcoFalke> jeremyrubin: How many vectors are there?
11:15 < jeremyrubin> Well I don't even know which ones would be helpful?
11:15 < jeremyrubin> Using sapio I can churn out ~infinite vectors in 5 minutes of work
11:15 < MarcoFalke> Nice. Then pick the ones that are orthorgonal 
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11:16 < MarcoFalke> The minimal set that maximizes branch coverage
11:16 < jeremyrubin> Where should they live since they require TX Context?
11:17 < jeremyrubin> just a vector of txs?
11:17 < MarcoFalke> they require the prevout or more of the previous tx?
11:20 < jeremyrubin> nope
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11:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #21756: Avoid calling `getnameinfo` when formatting IPv6 addresses in `CNetAddr::ToStringIP` (master...simplify-ipv6-address-formatting) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21756
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11:25 < MarcoFalke> Looks like there shouldn't be too many branches
11:25 < MarcoFalke> Basically it just checks a hash
11:25 < MarcoFalke> And some size-edge cases
11:26 < MarcoFalke> Just looking at the functional tests. Do you think they are exhaustive?
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11:28 < jeremyrubin> let me re-read them...
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11:29 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21702/files#diff-01837f5d48dbb3b478560986d868bd0a445cc792f00da44621b0a7b835f973d8R103-R112
11:30 < jeremyrubin> I think so?
11:30 < jeremyrubin> only missing is Taproot
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11:35 < MarcoFalke> Looks like you are using randomness and variable tree size, but that shouldn't increase coverage I guess because verification doesn't concern itself with depth
11:36 < MarcoFalke> So if there are just ~10 vectors you could hardcode them in hex or json and add them to the BIP
11:36 -!- braydonf [~braydon@gateway/tor-sasl/braydonf] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
11:37 < MarcoFalke> If there are thousands of vectors, it might be better to add them to qa-assets repo
11:37 < MarcoFalke> You could still include the nicest ones in the BIP, I guess
11:38 < MarcoFalke> It is mostly up to you, but for the Bitcoin Core repo we try to avoid commiting large blobs
11:40 -!- sipsorcery [~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6981:7880::3] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
11:41 < jeremyrubin> yeah maybe i'll just print some small ones
11:42 < jeremyrubin> Should I add a taproot case to the rpc test?
11:43 < jeremyrubin> Do i need a p2sh one which is kinda mathematically impossible?
11:44 < jeremyrubin> I guess I can test that it fails..
11:47 < MarcoFalke> yanmaani: Yes, it is possible to import private keys in tests (just like you would "normally")
11:47 < MarcoFalke> Jup, failing test cases are just as useful as passing ones
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12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 22 19:00:00 2021 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
12:00 < core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
12:00 < meshcollider> hi
12:00 < hebasto> hi
12:00 < luke-jr> hi
12:00 < gleb> Hi
12:00 < ariard> hi
12:00 < jnewbery> hi
12:00 < michaelfolkson> hi
12:00 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
12:00 < wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
12:00 < glozow> hi
12:00 < jeremyrubin> hi
12:01 -!- murchin [04355c72@4.53.92.114] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:01 < wumpus> one proposed meeting topic for today: adding a second BIP editor (jnewbery)
12:01 < achow101> hi
12:01 < luke-jr> Great idea, but this is neither an appropriate time nor venue for that discussion.
12:01 < wumpus> any last minute topic proposals?
12:01 < MarcoFalke> #proposedmeetingtopic 0.20.2
12:02 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:02 < core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
12:02 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  has 10 blockers, no bugfixes and nothing chasing concept ACK
12:02 < wumpus> anything to add / remove or that is ready to merge?
12:03 < ariard> #19160 has 5 acks
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19160 | multiprocess: Add basic spawn and IPC support by ryanofsky · Pull Request #19160 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < jonatack> hi
12:04 < wumpus> ariard: good to know, thanks
12:04 < jonatack> may i add #21261?
12:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21261 | p2p: update inbound eviction protection for multiple networks, add I2P peers by jonatack · Pull Request #21261 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < wumpus> jonatack: added!
12:04 < jonatack> thanks!
12:05 < yanmaani> MarcoFalke: How do I do that, while adding them to the keypool?
12:05 < wumpus> yanmaani: meeting in progress, please delay other discussion until after it
12:05 < yanmaani> I can import public keys with importmulti, but that doesn't support adding private keys as change
12:05 < jnewbery> yanmaani: after meeting, please
12:06 < wumpus> #topic Adding a second BIP editor (jnewbery)
12:06 < core-meetingbot> topic: Adding a second BIP editor (jnewbery)
12:06 -!- deJavu [4ebb29bb@78.187.41.187] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
12:07 < jnewbery> hi
12:07 < jnewbery> luke-jr has been the sole BIP editor for several years, and it seems like he's now overstretched and only able to look at the repo about once a month
12:07 < jnewbery> I suggest that we lighten his load by adding a second BIP editor. BIP2 allows multiple BIP editors and refers to plural BIP editors in several places, eg "The BIP editors are intended to fulfill administrative and editorial responsibilities. The BIP editors monitor BIP changes, and update BIP headers as appropriate."
12:07 < wumpus> would make sense imo
12:08 < jnewbery> kallewoof has recently offered to help with BIP repo maintainence:
12:08 < jnewbery> 15:43 < kallewoof> luke-jr: on a serious note, if you want help with the bip maintenance stuff, i'll gladly assist.
12:08 < jnewbery> If he's willing, I propose that add him as a second BIP editor.
12:08 < achow101> Seems like something to discuss on the mailing list really
12:08 < luke-jr> ^
12:08 < MarcoFalke> ACK, but seems off topic for this channel
12:08 < sipa> i agree with jnewbery's idea, but ut's something to discuss on the ML
12:09 < jnewbery> Lots of us know kallewoof. I believe he's trustworthy and perfectly capable of fulfilling the required administrative and editorial responsibilities.
12:09 < ariard> i agree on the motivation but same something to discuss on the ml
12:09 < wumpus> it's something to *decide* on the ML, but it's fine to discuss it here once imo
12:09 < luke-jr> FWIW, I did discuss it further with kalle privately; but IMO the timing is very poor for adding another editor right now
12:09 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: why?
12:09 < jnewbery> luke-jr: why is the timing poor?
12:10 < luke-jr> it seems motivated by an effort to give special treatment to a certain PR, which I hear might be "weaponised" for deceptive propaganda
12:10 < jeremyrubin> I agree with ML, but also maybe we can add a *temporary editor* if current editors have been too busy in the short term
12:10 < luke-jr> would be better to wait until any such concerns are gone
12:11 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: What do you mean with "special treatment"?
12:11 < jnewbery> I trust that kallewoof would not give special treatment to any PR. The editor's role is not to show preference/dispreference to PRs.
12:12 < wumpus> right the role of BIP editors is to follow the BIP1/2 process, not to pass personal judgement on BIPs besides very basic style criteria
12:12 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: rushed merging outside the usual triage, without full consideration to the factors in concluding it's RTM
12:12 < jeremyrubin> What sort of breach of duty under the BIP-0002 defined role would an additional editor make?
12:12 < michaelfolkson> It is a tricky situation, the aforementioned PR. I'd like to discuss it and how this type of scenario should be treated in future but better when things have calmed down I think
12:12 < jeremyrubin> As far as you've represented previously, you haven't had time to even look at the BIP341 changes which is why it's not merged.
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12:13 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: right, maybe it's fine, I don't know
12:13 < jnewbery> luke-jr: if you believe that kallewoof is unsuitable and wouldn't fulfil the editor role faithfully, then perhaps you could spell out why you have that concern. It'd save time on the mailing list
12:13 < jeremyrubin> +1 jnewbery
12:14 < luke-jr> jnewbery: I'm not saying he is unsuitable.
12:14 < jeremyrubin> as per BIP-0002, which would need ammending to add kallewoof, BIP authors are responsible for collecting community feedback on both the initial idea and the BIP before submitting it for review. However, wherever possible, long open-ended discussions on public mailing lists should be avoided
12:14 < jnewbery> so what's the concern with timing?
12:14 < luke-jr> jnewbery: I already summarised.
12:14 < jeremyrubin> so if kallewoof is controversial, or an editor, even if better suited to decide on mailing list, we should flesh out what adding an editor means before then
12:14 < jeremyrubin> *an addtl editor
12:16 < jeremyrubin> I'm also very concerned with "weaponised" for deceptive propagand'
12:16 < jnewbery> luke-jr: let me restate your points. Correct me where I go wrong: now is not a good time because a new editor might show preferential treatment to a certain PR. But we don't believe kallewoof would show preferential treatment to PRs. So what's the timing concern
12:16 < jeremyrubin> Is this something we need to be preparing for? Like when the copyright claims were made on the whitepaper?
12:17 < luke-jr> jnewbery: because the motivation appears to be to get preferential treatment; I have been hit with a lot of nagging, apparently for the purposes of passing off ST as "the" activation method period
12:17 < jnewbery> ok, so the concern is not timing, but motivation?
12:17 < luke-jr> jnewbery: it would be better to add an editor when there isn't such things going on
12:18 < michaelfolkson> Shall we continue on the mailing list as previously suggested?
12:18 < wumpus> ok... I don't think this is particularly constructive, let's move it further to the mailing list
12:18 < wumpus> yes
12:18 < jeremyrubin> noting that it's against BIP-0002 to proceed on mailing list
12:18 -!- murchin is now known as murch
12:18 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: wut?
12:18 < jeremyrubin> "long open-ended discussions on public mailing lists should be avoided"
12:19 < luke-jr> sigh
12:19 < wumpus> they should be avoided in the weekly core IRC meeting too
12:19 < jnewbery> I'm happy to draft an email to the mailing list, but I'd like to understand the process. What's the process for adding an editor? How does it get decided?
12:19 < ariard> jeremyrubin: on the other point, I don't think bip2 recommend bitcoin-core-dev as a venue, maybe better suitted to #bitcoin or #bitcoin-wizards
12:20 < luke-jr> jnewbery: in the past, it's been the existing editor passes it on, but when I intended to do that in 2018 I found people privately didn't like it, so wider involvement might be better
12:20 < jeremyrubin> well I think it's sort of a weird bind, as luke-jr is the author of 0002 who has the only right to amend it
12:20 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: BIP 2 doesn't need to be amended for this
12:20 < jeremyrubin> and he's also the editor who judge amendement
12:20 < jeremyrubin> so I think jnewbery is right to ask what the heck the process is
12:21 < jeremyrubin> I would expect https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0002.mediawiki#bip-editors to be updated
12:21 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: I agree it is a bind but binds aren't solved best overnight
12:21 < luke-jr> IMO what would make sense, is when the timing is reasonable/calm, I can just propose Kalle to the ML and if nobody objects we add him to the README or whatever
12:21 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: ah, forgot about that
12:22 < jnewbery> it does seem somewhat of a centralization problem. The BIPs repo is a venue for sharing proposed changes to Bitcoin, and one person decides who can update it, and also decides whether or not they should ever be replaced/supplemented?
12:22 < wumpus> yes
12:22 < meshcollider> jeremyrubin: I interpret that "long winded discussion" bit to be about the BIPs themselves, not the process of adding an editor
12:22 < luke-jr> jnewbery: seems like it would be good to have the editor cycle every year or two
12:22 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: I think that given conflict of interest you should just appoint a disterested editor/owner for BIP-0002
12:22 < harding> luke-jr: I don't agree with the timing issues, but until they're resolved to your satisfaction, is there something we can do to provide you with additional availability so that you can review BIP PRs in a timely manner?
12:23 < jonatack> meshcollider: same
12:23 < jeremyrubin> meshcollider: it's a self-reference bug of how we defined editorship; I agree it should be fixed!
12:23 < luke-jr> harding: hmm, I'm not sure. any suggestions?
12:24 < jeremyrubin> Is it displacing paid consulting work or something? How long do you estimate editing work would take?
12:24 < luke-jr> (I do expect I can get to it before the signalling begins, either way)
12:25 < harding> luke-jr: take over some other work of yours?  Help pay for your lawn maintenance person?  Something like that?
12:25 < michaelfolkson> I think in summary luke-jr is happy at some point to add an additional editor, appears to be happy with kallewoof if that is the eventual choice but doesn't want it rushed overnight to fix a PR merge issue
12:25 < jonatack> luke-jr: naive suggestion, maybe just take a few minutes to review the PR in question and merge it, issue resolved?
12:25 < luke-jr> as a reminder, though, BIPs *are* just documentation, so there really shouldn't need to be a rush
12:26 < michaelfolkson> I don't this is productive at this point. An email to the mailing list informing the BIP community that an additional editor is sought is probably a good next step
12:26 < jeremyrubin> Well it might be helpful for those implementing ST compatibility for the reference doc for activation to be the latest draft
12:26 < jnewbery> I think that for a project that strives for decentralization, a situation where one person has a role and gets to decide whether they should ever be replaced is completely unsuitable
12:26 < jeremyrubin> AJ's PR does not move 341 to final IIRC (altho perhaps it should be Active)
12:27 < michaelfolkson> jnewbery: luke-jr is saying he is happy to add an additional editor (just not in a rushed manner) 
12:27 < luke-jr> harding: right now, I'm churning through dealing with the rebase of BIP8 on top of the ST stuff. I suppose that might go faster if there were people willing to review it. But frankly then it almost sounds like I'm holding the BIPs hostage, and I don't want to do that either.
12:27 < yanmaani> jnewbery: Do the BIP editors have any actual power?
12:28 < yanmaani> I mean, if they'd start to NACK things in bad faith, you could just figure something out if that happens. It doesn't seem like a catastrophic issue.
12:28 < jnewbery> yanmaani: in theory, no. But if a BIP editor were acting unfaithfully they could do something like hold up the merge of a PR that the authors had all ACKed
12:28 < ariard> quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
12:28 < jeremyrubin> What if we just Cordon off the section of the AJ's PR and add a patch that says *activation logic pending further bip editing review, but merged in public information interest*
12:29 < michaelfolkson> There are no other topics right? This doesn't seem to be going anywhere
12:29 < wumpus> there is another topic
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12:29 < jnewbery> wumpus: I don't think this one is done
12:30 < jnewbery> I'm still not clear on what the process is for adding a new BIP editor
12:30 < jeremyrubin> This might be an uncomfortable conversation but I think it's important
12:30 < jnewbery> jeremyrubin: +1
12:30 < luke-jr> jnewbery: kallewoof was also AIUI planning to write a new BIP to replace BIP 2. maybe this is another topic to resolve in it.
12:31 < jnewbery> if the answer is "a new BIP editor is added when and only when luke-jr wants to", then I think we need to change that
12:31 < luke-jr> I don't think the current situation is well-defined
12:31 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: The only factor to consider merging a change is whether the bip author(s) are ok with a change
12:31 < jeremyrubin> I think the main thing is that it seems like procedure stalling over AJ's PR
12:31 < MarcoFalke> (well apart from formatting and technical feasibility, ....)
12:31 < jeremyrubin> I think we *should* fix the process. We should also merge AJ's PR.
12:31 < jeremyrubin> We don't need to depend one on the other
12:31 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: BIPs PRs merging slowly is not a new thing at all.
12:32 < jeremyrubin> What, if anything, do you need to check in the PR and how long would it take you?
12:32 < murch> I mean, signaling begins this week and it's not documented in a BIP yet.
12:32 < wumpus> yea if the PR is ready for merge it should be merged, in the time of this discussion it could have been merged like 5 times
12:32 < jeremyrubin> Like IMO it seems like less time than this meeting is taken?
12:32 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: +1
12:33 < glozow> I don't understand why the process for adding a new editor would be different based on timing or what PRs are open on the repo
12:33 < jnewbery> I also don't understand that. The two things can be handled separately.
12:34 < luke-jr> murch: signalling does not begin this week
12:34 < michaelfolkson> Someone should propose a process for formalizing the adding a new BIP editor to the mailing list
12:34 < murch> starttime = 2021-04-24 00:00 UTC
12:34 < wumpus> people really want to see it merged, no one disagrees strongly, why not just cooporate luke-jr, i don't really see why we need to escalate this to add a new editor right now
12:34 < meshcollider> BIP PRs merging being merged historically is not a reason to continue being slow forever
12:34 < jonatack> wumpus: same. I don't understand what's to be gained here.
12:34 < meshcollider> Being merged slowly*
12:34 < jnewbery> BIP PRs being merged slowly historically is more evidence that we need to spread the load of BIP repo maintainership
12:35 < luke-jr> wumpus: I have the impression people who really want to see it merged, are for deceptive purposes, and that there is ongoing arguments over it on the PR
12:35 < luke-jr> wumpus: maybe it is RTM, but I don't expect it's 5 minutes to figure out
12:35 < jeremyrubin> also being merged slowly for random things is different than being merged slowly *after being asked for accelerated process*
12:35 < michaelfolkson> glozow: luke-jr is of the view that this is only being requested at this time because of a specific PR merge decision. And it does seem that way
12:35 < achow101> luke-jr: it has ACKs from all 3 BIP authors, is that not sufficient?
12:35 < jnewbery> luke-jr: it doesn't matter whether there are 'ongoing arguments'. The three authors have all ACKed it
12:35 < luke-jr> murch: it's the first diff adjustment after that date
12:35 < jeremyrubin> harding asked you days ago to do it prior to this optech
12:35 < wumpus> separately from that we probably need a new BIP editor, and a process for that, but rushing into that after years of no one showing a single interest in being BIP editor is also a bit strange
12:35 < harding> luke-jr: I can link you directly to each of the authors ACKs.
12:36 < jnewbery> wumpus: kallewoof has shown interest in helping
12:36 < luke-jr> jnewbery: maybe so. I haven't looked.
12:36 < jnewbery> luke-jr: very good. Maybe having an extra editor would help
12:36 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: I've seen others express interest, but lack of clarity around process and not wanting to insult the current editor
12:36 < luke-jr> jnewbery: again, I agree. we should add an editor. I just don't think doing so for this specifically is good timing.
12:37 < jnewbery> I'm not suggesting we do it for this specifically
12:37 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: If there are other possible candidates other than kallewoof it needs a process
12:37 < meshcollider> luke-jr: in the meantime it seems very trivial to go and check the ACKs and then merge it then before proposing the new editor, which would solve the controversial timing issue
12:37 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: are there other candidates?
12:37 < wumpus> meshcollider: right
12:38 < jeremyrubin> ANd I agree it can be discussed on the mailing list
12:38 < jnewbery> I'm still curious what the process is for adding a new BIP editor
12:38 < jeremyrubin> but jnewbery asked a simple question, what's the process
12:38 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: "I've seen others express interest,"
12:38 < murch> So, I see two conflicting statements: you haven't checked whether all three bip authors have acked it, and that would be sufficient, but it would take you more than 5 minutes to figure out. How about you check now. We have a minute.
12:38 < jeremyrubin> and luke answered in essence when I say so
12:38 < luke-jr> meshcollider: but with people trying to politicise it, passing it off as "the activation method" and such, I need to evaluate if the BIP process has any rules/precedent dealing with such things
12:38 < jeremyrubin> which isn't really a process
12:39 < jeremyrubin> I don't think that we need one or two editors, anyone who wants to and is qualified can be added with reasonable support
12:39 < michaelfolkson> jnewbery: The process has not been formalized. If you could draft up a formalized process for the mailing list that would be a productive step
12:39 < luke-jr> meshcollider: (I don't think it does, but I'm not certain.)
12:39 < jeremyrubin> I think 3-5 editors is probably a good amount, odd # preferred
12:39 < michaelfolkson> Next topic....?
12:39 < ariard> i think the best answer we have is we don't have a process to add a new bip editor for now and it's a wider community concern than scope of core dev meeting, so better mailing list
12:40 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: if you think the optics of adding an editor now are bad, recognize your role in creating the neccessity of it
12:40 < wumpus> clearly there is no process for it at the moment
12:40 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: that's nonsense.
12:40 < wumpus> like jeremyrubin says we could just add one if there is sufficient support for it
12:41 < glozow> so we are in agreement that jnewbery should draft a proposal for the process and send it to the mailing list?
12:41 < wumpus> then agin I'd prefer if luke-jr  agreed
12:41 < luke-jr> glozow: sounds good to me
12:41 < jeremyrubin> I think that -- by your own admission -- you've said there is an appearance that you're holding the BIP hostage
12:41 < luke-jr> if jnewbery is okay with that
12:41 < jnewbery> wumpus: there is certainly sufficient support for it
12:41 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: stop twisting my words
12:41 < jeremyrubin> That appearance serves to delegitimize the BIP process itself, which is also bad... remove yourself from the situation, just appoint a temporary editor for this BIP
12:41 < jeremyrubin> and then let jnewbery take his time to propose a new process
12:42 < jeremyrubin> this seems to be a natural compromise
12:42 < wumpus> jnewbery: that was fairly clear
12:42 < wumpus> jnewbery: I think you can just propose adding kallewoof as BIP editor on the mailing list and see what the response is
12:42 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: works for me
12:43 < jnewbery> wumpus: who is able to add an editor?
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12:43 < meshcollider> Any admin of the Bitcoin org 
12:43 < wumpus> if you mean as to github permissions: any admin of the github org
12:43 < wumpus> yes
12:43 < jeremyrubin> so you or sipa?
12:44 < jnewbery> So what would an admin need in order to be satisfied that such support existed?
12:44 < jnewbery> And therefore add a new editor
12:44 < michaelfolkson> Is this PR an emergency? Because I am not aware it is...
12:44 < wumpus> i would prefer if luke-jr agreed to it
12:45 < jeremyrubin> wumpus: by what process would you ignore your preference? it seems unlikely luke-jr would agree 
12:45 -!- cguida [~Adium@205.209.28.54] has quit [Client Quit]
12:45 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: quit trolling
12:45 < wumpus> but also agree that this is very centralized right now and if he seems to be blocking things, that is not good optics and such either
12:46 < luke-jr> wumpus: I'm not blocking anything. Just doing the same as I have for every other PR for years.
12:46 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: I don't think it's appropriate for you, the bip editor, to call trying to understand how you've ensconced yourself as editor, trolling.
12:46 < jnewbery> it's not that it's bad optics. It's bad process for the project. And it's a waste of everyone's time
12:46 < michaelfolkson> Is this an emergency PR? If it is I agree it needs emergency measures. If it isn't I think this is a waste of time for all of us
12:46 < ariard> imo it's not a good precedent to have admin of the github org substituting to the lack of bip editor appointment process
12:47 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: it's not a waste of time as this conversation does have to happen now or in the future
12:47 < jnewbery> ariard: there is no process
12:47 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: and that is true absent the current PR in question
12:47 < luke-jr> there are several outstanding issues with BIP 2 that should be revised. I think we identified one more. seems like the action path is best to work on a new BIP to replace BIP 2.
12:47 < michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: It would be easier to have this conversation without this cloud though
12:47 < wumpus> ariard: agree
12:47 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: I disagree -- then it would be "we have other more pressing things, why have this stupid debate now"
12:47 < ariard> jnewbery: we agree on the lack of process, i'm marking my disagreement on fallbacking to github org admins
12:47 < luke-jr> ariard: there is precedent for BIP editor to add BIP editors; so no problem assuming we wait for reasonable timing
12:48 < wumpus> ariard: then again i'm just trying to do what people in the project want
12:48 < jnewbery> luke-jr: that in itself is a problem
12:48 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: there's no good time, place, etc for this convo because it's fundamental stupid procedure issues
12:48 < wumpus> ariard: if everyone wants kallewoof as BIP editor i'm going to add him
12:48 < jnewbery> wumpus: +1
12:48 < jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: but it's still necessary 
12:48 < harding> +1 kallewoof as BIP editor
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12:48 < jeremyrubin> +1 kallewoof
12:49 < ariard> wumpus: yes but i think the discussion belongs wider than a core dev meeting, and we should seek consensus on the mailing list
12:49 < wumpus> i do prefer it to be proposed on the ML as well
12:49 < jeremyrubin> (I'm also +1 to ~anyone else who cares to be editor)
12:49 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: a good time is when it's not being used as a tool toward some other purpose
12:49 < michaelfolkson> Not knowing the other candidates I wouldn't oppose kallewoof. I don't like it being rushed because of a PR though
12:49 < jeremyrubin> we can seek some rough consensus here tho; to make sure it's not wasting mailing list time
12:49 < meshcollider> +1 kallewoof with a ML proposal too
12:49 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: i think we have consensus here now
12:49 < jeremyrubin> if kallewoof is fundamentally objectionable someone should say so
12:49 < wumpus> jeremyrubin: no one here is disagreeing on it, just about timing
12:50 < jeremyrubin> this reminds me of soft forks and signalling vs not signalling...
12:50 < jeremyrubin> there's value in "people said ok" v.s. "no one disagreed"
12:50 < jnewbery> wumpus: very happy to send a post to the mailing list asking for anyone to step forward with objections. If no-one has a reasonable objection within a week or so, then perhaps we should go ahead and do it
12:50 < ariard> jeremyrubin: right that's a first step but you have a lot of others community dev involved in the bip process than only core
12:50 < jnewbery> I think that's a fair process
12:50 < wumpus> jnewbery:sgtm
12:50 < jeremyrubin> ariard: yep, I'm not nacking going to mailing list
12:51 < wumpus> ok, we have another topic ,so let's move on for now
12:51 < meshcollider> luke-jr: as we said, if it's just that PR merge you're worried about for propoganda sake, please go and review it now before kalle is added, then there is no problem
12:51 < luke-jr> meshcollider: yes, I probably will get a chance within that week timeframe
12:51 < wumpus> #topic 0.20.2 (MarcoFalke)
12:51 < core-meetingbot> topic: 0.20.2 (MarcoFalke)
12:51 < MarcoFalke> Any objections to release 0.20.2 a week or two after 0.21.1?
12:51 < luke-jr> 0.20 doesn't have Taproot logic, right?
12:51 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: no taproot
12:51 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: But bech32m
12:51 < wumpus> what is the motivation ? ah right, makes sense then
12:52 < luke-jr> at the very least that should be made very clear in the rel notes
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12:52 < MarcoFalke> Pretty sure sipa added release notes
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12:52 < jnewbery> MarcoFalke: will there be a taproot v0.20 release shortly after?
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12:52 < MarcoFalke> jnewbery: No, why?
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12:53 < luke-jr> jnewbery: IIRC adding Taproot to 0.20 was a can of worms
12:53 < jeremyrubin> i think if anyones not following the motivation is "I want to send to addresses people give me, but I run 0.20"
12:53 < jnewbery> ah ok then. Never mind
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12:54 < jeremyrubin> TBH I'm skeptical of value -- are bech32m addresses expected to be used before 0.20 falls out of service?
12:54 < luke-jr> besides, it won't activate before November
12:54 < MarcoFalke> At this point it might be questionable if anyone upgrades to 0.20.2 even, but we have everything prepared for the release
12:54 < jeremyrubin> (and does a point release extend that deadline?)
12:54 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: well, could do a rc1 and leave it at that if there's no feedback
12:54 < jeremyrubin> if the question for the topic is just [4/22/21 12:51] <MarcoFalke> Any objections to release 0.20.2 a week or two after 0.21.1?
12:54 < jeremyrubin> then i have no objection :)
12:54 < murch> jeremyrubin: I think the bigger issue would be that 0.20.1 recognizes native segwit v1 addresses encoded as Bech32 as correct?
12:55 < MarcoFalke> murch: It does
12:55 < MarcoFalke> murch: Though, there should be no wallet that produces v1 addresses
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12:56 < murch> Well, some wallets implemented experimental Taproot support before BIP350
12:56 < luke-jr> but it can't be used before activation..
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12:57 < jeremyrubin> I think the benefits of releasing it as a compiled binary that a used can discover are relatively slim... that it has been backported at all is OK
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12:58 < jeremyrubin> MarcoFalke: I think whatever you decide is OK with me
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12:58 < MarcoFalke> It would be good to have some kind of process for this
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12:58 < wumpus> there's not much overhead to doing a release so if someone wants a release we can do it
12:58 < MarcoFalke> If the process is "just do an rc1", that's fine
12:59 < luke-jr> rc1->final is where things are fuzzy; it makes sense to just not go final in some cases
12:59 < luke-jr> if people want a final, they can test rc1 and report back
13:00 < wumpus> yes
13:00 < luke-jr> if not, it stays at rc1 - that's fine too
13:00 < luke-jr> IMO
13:00 < wumpus> sgtm, at least the backport has a tag then
13:00 < MarcoFalke> ok
13:00 < wumpus> so it doesn't get dropped when the branch goes away
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13:01 < MarcoFalke> bedtime?
13:01 < wumpus> (which isn't any time soon but still)
13:01 < wumpus> yes, time to conclude the meeting
13:01 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:01 < core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
13:01 < core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr 22 20:01:18 2021 UTC.  
13:01 < core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-04-22-19.00.moin.txt
13:01 < jonatack> ✨ o/
13:02 < wumpus> speaking of releases i'm going to merge https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/0.21.1-Release-Notes-draft into the 0.21.1 release notes
13:07 < yanmaani> In the test framework, is there any way to import a specific private key and use it as a change address?
13:08 < wumpus> i see there's also a release notes fragment that needs to be merged in : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.21/doc/release-notes-20861.md
13:10 < MarcoFalke> Jup, that is the bech32m change
13:11 < MarcoFalke> Same release note should be in the 0.20 branch
13:12 < MarcoFalke> oh, looks like it is not merged yet: #21470 
13:12 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21470 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses (0.20 backport) by sipa · Pull Request #21470 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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13:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.21: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5577e0a4867c...d97d0d31a6f4
13:14 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.21 d97d0d3 W. J. van der Laan: doc: Merge release notes fragment, merge taproot description from wiki
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13:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow opened pull request #21759: wallet: document coin selection code (master...2021-04-wallet-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21759
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15:08 < luke-jr> done with the rebasing stuff, so I'll get to BIP PRs soon. but in the interest of getting the ball rolling for kalle, I drafted this email for the ML: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j7_rtK4U6z-Bn00yNLIwJp9ksF3bJW6wXgYO2KQ-0EA/edit?usp=sharing
15:08 < luke-jr> anything to add?
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15:56 < jeremyrubin> FWIW I think ACKs matter more than NACKs for adding an editor...
15:57 < jeremyrubin> consent > lack of nonconsent
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16:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Brightside56 opened pull request #21760: Add -flushwalletinterval command line arg (master...flushwalletinterval) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21760
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16:00 < luke-jr> achow101: is https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1100 a NACK?
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16:05 < achow101> luke-jr: still thinking about it
16:06 < luke-jr> k
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17:15 < ariard> luke-jr: you know, if you think we should take more time to appoint another bip editor, you're entitled to say so
17:16 < ariard> unless not acting jeopardize users safety, i think we can do better than nagging folks to act quickly during public meetings, either bip editors, maintainers or github orgs admin
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17:39 < luke-jr> ariard: aside from timing (which will hopefully be resolved sooner anyway), I think my only concern is that there appears to be some kind of collusion going on between some other devs, and I do not know the extent of who is involved in it
17:40 < luke-jr> ariard: besides, at the end of the day, it's just a git repo of docs - absolute worst case, it can be rolled back or reverted
17:43 < luke-jr> maybe I'm just naive, but a few weeks ago I would never have imagined the behaviour I'm seeing from some people now
17:52 < yanmaani> what is this collusion?
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 23 00:00:34 2021