--- Log opened Thu May 20 00:00:00 2021
00:31 < vasild> https://libera.chat/guides/connect -- "Libera.Chat is not yet accessible by TOR but we intend to have this available soon.", trying to connect to irc.libera.chat via tor results in "You are banned from this server- Your Tor exit node must not allow connections to libera.chat. Email tor-kline@libera.chat for assistance."
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00:34 < gwillen> vasild: from the phrasing I assume they intend to set up an onion service
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00:35 < hebasto> wumpus: maybe reserve #bitcoin-core-gui as well?
00:35 < vasild> gwillen: yes, "soon"
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00:36 < gwillen> hebasto: I recommend just go ahead and do it if you think it might be useful, you can always hand it off later
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00:36 < gwillen> mentioning things to reserve in public spaces before actually reserving them is a dangerous game ;-)
00:36 < gwillen> if the wrong people are listening.
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00:37 < gwillen> (I just popped into it to hold it, I haven't registered it but I'm holding ops and can hand them off to one of you guys)
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00:38 < kinlo> I can handle reservation for #bitcoin-* channels
00:38 < gwillen> ahh right, I forget there's group registration
00:39 < hebasto> kinlo: see my message above
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01:52 < real_or_random> shouldn't bitcoin and bitcoin-core be different namespaces even? 
01:55 < real_or_random> (I mean... I guess they're not. But do we want different namespaces?) 
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02:25 < jnewbery> #proposedmeetingtopic remove fuzzer from CI jobs
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02:48 < hebasto> real_or_random: thinking the same
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04:00 < sysadmin> This channel will be terminated. Any nicks remaining in the channel will also be terminated. This action cannot be undone. Please /connect to irc.butt.es and /join #gamme for more information.
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04:07 < sysadmin> This channel will be terminated. Any nicks remaining in the channel will also be terminated. This action cannot be undone. Please /connect to irc.butt.es and /join #gamme for more information.
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04:20 < michaelfolkson> ^ I think this from sysadmin is spam
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04:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #22002: Fix crash when parsing command line with -noincludeconf=0 (master...2105-parseCommandlineCrash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22002
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05:06 < Kiminuo> michaelfolkson, Will this channel stay or is something changing?
05:07 < michaelfolkson> Kiminuo: The last I heard/read we were claiming nicks and channels on Libera in case we move there but we are probably going to wait until the dust settles to decide whether we do
05:08 < Kiminuo> thanks for the info
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05:08 < michaelfolkson> I haven't heard anything regarding Freenode channels being terminated. I suspect this is highly unlikely despite the spam suggesting otherwise
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05:09 < nkuttler> nothing was decided for #bitcoin* yet
05:09 < nkuttler> quite some channels are moving though, some to libera, some to oftc, others probably elsewhere
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06:14 < Kiminuo> I'm interested in the process of "merging of PRs in Bitcoin Core repo" in general. So I understand that a PR needs a certain number of code review ACKs to be eligible for merging. But what happens then? What actually makes a person to click the "merge" button?
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06:35 < wumpus> real_or_random: no idea if libera supports recursive namespaces, tbh i'm fine with the bitcoin core channels being under the bitcoin namespace no need to make this too complicated
06:35 < real_or_random> Yeah I think both options are reasonable in the end.
06:36 < real_or_random> I just thought that we had the same story for websites, github orgs etc, so it would be logical to have a proper separation from the beginning on 
06:37 < real_or_random> But in the end, chat is less official, and it's like with all the other services: we can switch if they go crazy.
06:38 < wumpus> Kiminuo: the goal in a PR is to get consensus for merging it, there's some judgement involved by a maintainer regarding risk of the change versus number and thoroughness of reviews
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06:38 < wumpus> no one is constantly paying attention to the whole list though, so if you see something with a lot of ACKs that isn't merged yet feel free to bring it up
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06:42 < Kiminuo> I see. So it basically depends on people with merge right when they feel good about a PR. 
06:45 < Kiminuo> wumpus, Well, for example, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21850 this is a PR of mine where I'm currently thinking whether I should apply the suggestion https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21850#pullrequestreview-655658498 or not. If I'll apply it now I'll lose ACKs, if I'll leave it as it is then it may be merged and my next PR will be easier to review. But I guess this is something people cope with often
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06:47 < Kiminuo> But given that the merging process is a somewhat non-deterministic process from my side, I can't really decide, I guess.
06:47 < wumpus> mostly how they feel about the *comments on a PR*, if you see something you'd absolutely do not want to see merged it's really important to bring that up too
06:48 < wumpus> of course, merges are not final, if someone finds a problem after something is merged it's possible to revert
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06:48 < wumpus> Kiminuo: let me see
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06:49 < wumpus> in general i don't think 'losing ACKs' should be a reason not to do something if it's otherwise a valid comment, it's easy enough to review the diff again, at least if it is a small change
06:51 < Kiminuo> ok, so I'll try to address that. Thanks
06:53 < wumpus> in this case as the whole point of the PR is to come up with better naming, i guess it makes sense to incorporate the suggestion, instead of doing a big rename yet again afterward
06:54 < Kiminuo> right
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07:04 < wumpus> michaelfolkson: i think it's not 100% clear, the infrastructure for freenode is hosted by various parties who donate a server, what happens depends on whether they go along with the new situation
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07:05 < wumpus> that said i doubt any will just pull the plug with 2 minutes notice
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07:11 < michaelfolkson> Kiminuo: You can always cc those who have already ACKed it asking for a re-ACK clearly explaining what has changed since they last ACKed and hopefully they'll be happy to re-ACK
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07:13 < Kiminuo> michaelfolkson, Yeah. I kind of want to optimize my workflow for "not bothering others needlessly" but in this case it is probably justifiable.
07:15 < michaelfolkson> Kiminuo: Right especially as the time for the reviewer to re-ACK will be minimal in comparison to the time they needed to ACK it in the first place (assuming the change is relatively small which in this case it looks to be)
07:16 < Kiminuo> yeah, thanks
07:16 < ggus> hi all, this is gus from the tor project. i don't know if this is the right channel to ask, but very soon tor project will deprecate and remove v2 onion services. i've checked that ~15% of bitcoin nodes are running over tor and many of them are running v2 onion. do you have thoughts on how we could warn these node operators and help them migrate to v3 onion services? 
07:17 < hebasto> Kiminuo: to make re-ACKing a bit easier to reviewers, you'd not want to rebase without conflicts as well
07:18 < vasild> ggus: Hello!
07:18 < Kiminuo> hebasto, Yes, you have made me aware of it. It didn't occur to me back then.
07:19 < aj> i have an alias ---> git rebase -i $(git merge-base HEAD origin/master)     <--- for when i want to edit my commits without changing the base commit to make comparison a little easier
07:20 < hebasto> Kiminuo: sorry if I repeat myself, it was not address to you personally, rather a general advice
07:20 < Kiminuo> hebasto, np, it's useful advice!
07:21 < ggus> hello, vasild!
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07:21 < Kiminuo> How do you guys review force-pushes? I use Github CLI and "gh pr checkout <number>" and when it is force-pushed, I use "gh pr checkout --force <number>". Then do you use simply "git diff old-commit..force-pushed-commit"?
07:22 < vasild> ggus: on warning those node operators, I have no idea, maybe some mailing list or blog (that gets picked by news web sites) may help. On helping them migrate to v3 - there are two cases - 1. statically configured onion service in torrc, the users need to edit their torrc, no need to upgrade bitcoin core; 2. an onion service that is automatically created by bitcoin core - this will be switched 
07:22 < vasild> automatically to v3, but an upgrade to bitcoin core 0.21 is needed
07:22 < hebasto> Kiminuo: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/Developer-Notes-for-Qt-Code#reviewing-pull-request
07:23 < Kiminuo> hebasto, ah, that's super helpful. I missed that. Thanks!
07:23 < hebasto> you need `git range-diff ...`
07:24 < Kiminuo> Great. That will make my life simpler :)
07:24 < Kiminuo> b for now
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07:28 < vasild> ggus: hmm, actually in the 1. case, if the user just edits torrc and changes the v2 onion service to v3, then an old bitcoin core (<0.21) would be able to accept incoming tor connections, but if it wants to make outgoing connections to v3 addresses, then an upgrade to >=0.21 is needed
07:28 < ggus> vasild: do you have suggestions of mailing lists or forums that we should announce this? for the news, we can contact some news outlet. And do you know which tools people are using to automatically deploy a bitcoin node, so we can contact the developers?  
07:29 < ggus> vasild: about #2: amazing! so we just need to ask people to upgrade their bitcoin core software
07:29 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2 | Long-term, safe, store-of-value · Issue #2 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:31 < vasild> ggus: there is bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org but I doubt it is the best way to reach users, maybe others would have better ideas, wumpus?
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07:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ajtowns opened pull request #22003: txmempool: add thread safety annotations (master...202105-mempoolguards) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22003
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07:50 < wumpus> I can post to the notification list (bitcoin-core-dev) and to the bitcoin core twitter account (would make sense to PR a new blog item to bitcoincore.org first, so it's possible to post a link to that)
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08:05 < ggus> wumpus: oh, that would be awesome! could you link to this blog post? https://blog.torproject.org/v2-deprecation-timeline 
08:11 < wumpus> it would be more useful to have bitcoin specific instructions
08:12 < wumpus> i mean i think tor deprecating tor v2 hidden services is well known at this point to tor users (they have been pretty loud about it), but bitcoin users might not know what to do dunno
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08:12 < ggus> wumpus: yes, agree. 
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08:18 < sipa> ggus: hello! what is the exact timeframe within which we might expect v2 services to start failing?
08:18 < sipa> oh, you linked that above - sorry, i was reading backlog
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08:20 < sipa> july 15 is the next step on the timeline, and we're scheduled to have our next major release in august (though from experience, it always might slip a few weeks)
08:21 < sipa> we should not forget to include a mention in our release notes
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08:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #22004: fuzz: Speed up transaction fuzz target (master...2105-fuzzTx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22004
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08:57 < BlueMatt> sipa: does it make sense to remove support for v2 services then?
08:57 < BlueMatt> huh, bye sipa
08:58 < BlueMatt> anyway, presumably it makes sense to remove v2 service support ~now, not that I'm volunteering to do it
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09:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #22005: fuzz: Speed up banman fuzz target (master...2105-fuzzBanSpeed) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22005
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09:34 < wumpus> ack on removing v2 suport
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09:39 < sipa> wumpus: i guess i missed something, but right, if v2 support is going to be removed imminently from tor, might as well remove it in v22.0
09:41 < wumpus> yes, i think so too
09:42 < wumpus> tor (master) already refuses to connect to v2 hidden services so if we don't, we'll likely get a lot of complaints about people seeing their log full of failed connection attempts
09:47 < vasild> https://blog.torproject.org/v2-deprecation-timeline -- it is a bit unclear to me when v2 support is going to be dropped network-wise
09:48 < vasild> in July 0.4.6.x will be released (without v2 support), but it will not be stable?
09:49 < vasild> and in October a stable version without v2 support will be released
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09:52 < vasild> I assume after Oct v2 services will start being unreachable, but what about tor nodes that run 0.4.5.x (which supports v2) after Oct?
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09:52 < vasild> maybe with some luck v2 services could be reachable even after Oct (if only old nodes are involved in the routing)?
09:53 < vasild> ggus: ^ correct?
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10:02 < sipa> ggus: thanks for reaching out, in any case
10:04 < ggus> vasild: yes, with some luck they could be reachable, but we're expecting that almost all tor relays will not support v2 onions anymore in October.
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10:09 < ggus> sipa: next week we will have an invite only Tor AMA about v2 onion services deprecation. it would be important to have some of bitcore-devs present there. if you pm your email, i'll send the invitation.
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10:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] 0xB10C opened pull request #22006: tracing: first tracepoints and documentation on User-Space, Statically Defined Tracing (USDT) (master...2021-05-initial-usdt-support) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22006
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10:30 < sipa> wumpus, vasild: we should probably (but perhaps not immediately) stop relaying v2 addresses
10:30 < sipa> so they stop being rumoured and taking space in addrmans
10:31 < wumpus> right
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10:49 < sipa> ggus: see PM, note that the project is called "bitcoin core"; there is an unrelated piece of software called bitcore too
10:57 < jonatack> catching up with the tor v2 discussion, i've been running bitcoind with tor-0.4.6.1-alpha for a couple of months now that rejects v2 addresses 
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10:57 < jonatack> and working on removing v2 support
10:58 < jonatack> after discussions on doing this with wumpus and vasild
10:59 < jonatack> if someone else is also working on this, please let me know to coordinate
10:59 < wumpus> yes we discussed in #21351
10:59 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21351 | net: No more v2 onion support in upstream Tor master · Issue #21351 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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10:59 < jonatack> wumpus: yes, that was the starting point for me running the new tor, have stayed with it since
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11:11 < wumpus> same, it works for mainnet, but wasn't able to connect to testnet it would be nice to have v3 hardcoded seeds for testnet too (and remove the v2 ones), though i'm not aware of anyone even running one
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11:12 < jonatack> -addrinfo on testnet shows 24 v3 peers for me
11:12 < wumpus> great!
11:12 < jonatack> (and 15 on signet)
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11:14 < jonatack> ah indeed, #21560 added on mainnet only
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11:14 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21560 | net: Add Tor v3 hardcoded seeds by laanwj · Pull Request #21560 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:16 < wumpus> yeh that was most urgent; the reason i'm bringing it up really is that contrib/seeds/nodes_test.txt *only* contains v2 onions, it also hasn't been touched since 2015 (besides adding port #'s), another option would be to just get rid of it
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11:18 < jonatack> speaking of which, #21843 is probably rfm
11:18 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21843 | p2p, rpc: enable GetAddr, GetAddresses, and getnodeaddresses by network by jonatack · Pull Request #21843 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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11:19 < jonatack> e.g. getnodeaddresses 24 onion
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11:28 < wumpus> jonatack: agreed, it looks pretty much rfm
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11:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ea8b2e8e127b...37e9f07996d3
11:53 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d35ddca Jon Atack: p2p: enable CAddrMan::GetAddr_() by network, add doxygen
11:53 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c38981e João Barbosa: p2p: pull time call out of loop in CAddrMan::GetAddr_()
11:53 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a49f3dd Jon Atack: p2p: allow CAddrMan::GetAddr() by network, add doxygen
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11:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21843: p2p, rpc: enable GetAddr, GetAddresses, and getnodeaddresses by network (master...getnodeaddresses-by-network) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21843
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11:54 < jonatack> turns out there are many more v3 peers on testnet once you addnode the ones you know
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11:59 < provoostenator> jonatack: I guess the DNS seeds don't crawl them and currently can't announce using the v2 address message?
11:59 < provoostenator> (format)
11:59 < provoostenator> But I would still expect most other nodes to gossip them.
11:59 < wumpus> was about to say, you're basically performing the DNS seed crawler's work manually now :-)\
12:00 < provoostenator> But I guess you can't specifically ask for them?
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12:01 < wumpus> created an issue wrt collecting torv3/i2p addresses in the crawler https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder/issues/92  even though there's no point in adding them to the actual DNS seeds, it would still be useful to have a way to keep tabs on them for the hardcoded seeds updates
12:01 < meshcollider> Meeting? Or is my timezone wrong
12:02 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:02 < core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu May 20 19:02:05 2021 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
12:02 < core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
12:02 < wumpus> meshcollider: you're right
12:02 < jnewbery> hi
12:02 < hebasto> hi
12:02 < sipsorcery> hi
12:02 < achow101> hi
12:02 < meshcollider> hi 
12:02 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
12:02 < wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
12:02 < jonatack> hi
12:02 < michaelfolkson> hi
12:02 < fjahr> hi
12:03 < wumpus> three proposed meetings for today: moving to oftc or libera.chat (aj), windows code signing certificate update (achow101), remove fuzzer from CI jobs (jnewbery)
12:03 < sipa> bhi
12:03 < wumpus> any last minute topics?
12:04 < wumpus> #topic High priority for review
12:04 < core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
12:04 < wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 : currently 9 blockers, no bugfixes, no chasing concept ACK
12:04 < provoostenator> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/4 HWW GUI support would be cool, though technically doesn't block anything
12:05 < wumpus> anything to add/remove or that is (almost) ready for merge
12:05 < wumpus> is it possible to add a GUI PR there?
12:05 < wumpus> unfortunately i don't think so
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12:06 < hebasto> it should work to add with full link
12:06 < wumpus> let me try
12:08 < wumpus> right i could add it through a 'note'
12:08 < hebasto> wumpus: provoostenator: thanks!
12:09 < wumpus> amything else for high prio?
12:10 < wumpus> #topic Moving to oftc or libera.chat (aj)
12:10 < core-meetingbot> topic: Moving to oftc or libera.chat (aj)
12:11 < wumpus> i'm not sure how much of a discussion this is anymore, fwiw: we've already reserved the namespace and channels in libera.chat
12:11 < wumpus> it makes sense to register your nickname there if you haven't done so yet (works the same as here, with nickserv)
12:12 < hebasto> how long it would take to switch from freenode?
12:12 < wumpus> i don't think there's any work left to be done? 
12:13 < michaelfolkson> This is still up in the air right? We're going to wait until dust has settled to decide rather than move in say the next week or two?
12:13 < wumpus> okay, the merges bot isn't there yet, and we need to update the bitcoincore.org website
12:13 < BlueMatt> I dont think it should be a question on if things should move, there's not really any doubt that it should have moved already, only question is libera, oftc, or something else
12:14 < michaelfolkson> BlueMatt: Because new owner is "malicious"? I haven't been following it that closely. Are there any devs still left on the Freenode side?
12:14 < wumpus> from what i've seen there is pretty broad agreement to move
12:15 < hebasto> is current lack of tor support on libera a blocker?
12:15 < wumpus> michaelfolkson: it's really fishy what happened, legal threats against admins etc
12:16 < wumpus> https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
12:16 < achow101> oftc seems to be a bit harder to register with since they don't support sasl
12:17 < hebasto> ^ without public plans to add such support?
12:17 < BlueMatt> michaelfolkson: the people behind the freenode acquisition have been known hostile to bitcoin for years, I kinda suggested moving, but wasnt worth the effort, this seems like a good excuse more than anything.
12:17 < b10c_> hi
12:17 < wumpus> hebasto: libera is planning to add tor support at least they mention so on their page
12:17 < michaelfolkson> BlueMatt: Ok thanks
12:17 < sipa> today i was briefly able to connect to libera over tor
12:17 < hebasto> nice
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12:18 < BlueMatt> (the actual freenode admins have been fairly friendly to bitcoin stuff, at least after a *ton* of effort on the part of some of the #bitcoin mods, most of those admins have moved to libera now)
12:19 < provoostenator> I registered provoostenator on the other side :-)
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12:20 < murch> provoostenator: Well, that settles it then. ;)
12:20 < wumpus> it's wise to register your name there, to prevent it from being grabbed by someone else
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12:20 < provoostenator> And then confirm it here.
12:21 < wumpus> yes
12:21 < michaelfolkson> I suppose my second and final question would be there isn't the possibility of a reversal and everyone makes up and goes back to Freenode right? This often seems to happen in scenarios like this. A protest which results in a new agreement
12:21 < hebasto> am I understand correctly hat there is a consensus to move from freenode?
12:21 < provoostenator> (depending on *how* hostile the IRC overloards are here of course)
12:21 < hebasto> * that
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12:22 < achow101> it's prudent to maintain accounts on multiple networks so that switching is merely changing a url
12:23 < wumpus> michaelfolkson: i sincerely doubt it (but cannot really go into details)
12:23 < wumpus> read the gist i posted for some information
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12:23 < BlueMatt> michaelfolkson: I think if we find much wrong with libera, we will move to oftc or elsewhere, there's about zero chance we end up back on freenode
12:24 < michaelfolkson> wumpus BlueMatt: Ok, sounds like it is just a question of timing then
12:25 < jonatack> https://libera.chat/guides/registration
12:25 < hebasto> my vote is for libera
12:25 < achow101> libera is fine with me
12:26 < wumpus> same
12:26 < michaelfolkson> Yeah libera seems obvious choice
12:26 < jonatack> yup
12:27 < provoostenator> Who wants to register satoshi to keep out the name squatters,  and receive lots of legal threats? :-)
12:27 < wumpus> so the remaining question is timeframe
12:28 < wumpus> where is next week's IRC meeting?
12:28 < provoostenator> It could make sense to do that on libera, but maybe ask right before the meeting if anyone objects.
12:28 < sipa> maybe let's plan to have next week's meeting be the last one here?
12:29 < sipa> unless there are exigent circumstances
12:29 < achow101> There are also all of the side meetings (e.g. wallet, p2p)
12:29 < jnewbery> those should follow the main meeting
12:29 < ariard> hi
12:29 < michaelfolkson> Yeah it is good to keep people informed and not move quickly unless forced to (I think)
12:30 < jonatack> next wallet meeting is tomorrow (here, presumably)
12:30 < michaelfolkson> Last Core dev meeting here next week sounds good to me (and gives time for people to get set up)
12:30 < wumpus> sgtm
12:30 < hebasto> agree
12:30 < achow101> ack
12:30 < jonatack> i'm fine to switch as soon as people want to
12:31 < wumpus> #topic Windows code signing certificate update (achow101)
12:31 < core-meetingbot> topic: Windows code signing certificate update (achow101)
12:31 < hebasto> how people will be informed about moving?
12:31 < wumpus> hebasto: we can set the topic here i guess
12:31 < hebasto> wumpus: ok
12:31 < achow101> It looks like we will be getting the windows code signing certificate shortly, hopefully within in the next week
12:31 < wumpus> achow101: great news!!!
12:32 < sipa> awesöme
12:32 < wumpus> hebasto: and we'll need to badger people talking here for a while to move maybe :)
12:32 < achow101> We have created Bitcoin Core Code Signing LLC registerd in Delaware and the cert will be issued to this new LLC
12:32 < wumpus> hebasto: then at some point maybe set it to +m
12:32 < achow101> it's been validated already, so all that's left is waiting for Digicert to issue the cert itself
12:33 < wumpus> achow101: glad to hear that
12:33 < achow101> that's all
12:33 < provoostenator> Nice!
12:34 < wumpus> #topic Remove fuzzer from CI jobs (jnewbery)
12:34 < core-meetingbot> topic: Remove fuzzer from CI jobs (jnewbery)
12:35 < jnewbery> hi!
12:36 < jnewbery> It seems that cirrus CI very frequently times out after two hours on the job that runs the fuzz corpus
12:36 < jnewbery> and that causes the CI to show as failed for PRs that don't actually have any problems
12:36 < wumpus> yes, it happens intermittently but quite often
12:37 < jnewbery> There are two problems here: 1. a run time of two hours is a really slow feedback loop, which is terrible for productivity
12:37 < wumpus> i wonder if there are any specific cases that are so slow or it's necessarily like this
12:37 < sipa> i think the fuzz test sets are also just too big
12:37 < provoostenator> Is it possible to a much more limited fuzz? Just to catch really obvious mistakes?
12:37 < wumpus> two hour is long yes
12:37 < jnewbery> 2. a CI that has false failures reduces people's trust in the system and hides actual failures
12:37 < jonatack> protip, push on sunday
12:38 < jnewbery> I personally don't think we should be running the fuzz corpus on PRs
12:38 < sipa> jnewbery: you mean just run it on master?
12:38 < sipa> that'd be fine by me
12:38 < ajonas> so oss-fuzz does have a ci intergration
12:38 < jnewbery> if the code that the corpus is testing hasn't changed, then you're just running the same code paths as every other path. If it has changed, then the corpus isn't going to get good coverage (since it's optimized for the old code)
12:38 < ajonas> no idea what the run time would be but it's something to maybe consider
12:38 < jnewbery> yes, just run on master
12:39 < jnewbery> I feel like a CI is not the right place for fuzzing
12:39 < jonatack> at the same time, the fuzz CI helpfully catches when you forget to update the fuzzers for your changes 
12:39 < sipa> jonatack: we can build the fuzz code without running it
12:39 < jnewbery> jonatack: we should still build the fuzz binaries
12:39 < hebasto> ^ we have fuzz binary by default
12:39 < michaelfolkson> provoostenator: I don't think we're at a point where we can draw a clear divide between obvious fuzzing and non obvious fuzzing (but someone can correct me if wrong)
12:40 < sipa> another possibility is just running the a small random subset of fuzz inputs
12:40 < sipa> but i think i agree with jnewbery that in general, (PR) CI is not the right place for fuzzing
12:41 < jnewbery> sorry, typo in my earlier statement: s/the same code path as every other path/the same code path as every other branch/
12:41 < ajonas> The fuzzer is not the only thing that's slow
12:41 < sipa> well, what we're doing isn't even actual fuzzing, it's running unit tests that are automatically derived from fuzzing corpus :)
12:41 < ajonas> it will knock the feedback loop down some but it's not the only issue if that's what the goal is
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12:42 < sipa> ajonas: what else is?
12:42 < jnewbery> sipa: not really unit tests, since they don't necessarily assert that the behaviour is correct.
12:42 < jnewbery> they just try to hit path coverage
12:42 < sipa> jnewbery: true
12:42 < glozow> the fuzzer is the one that’s timing out a lot though right?
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12:43 < ajonas> the macbuild actually takes longer on average
12:43 < jonatack> and there is still a fuzzer run on bitcoinbuilds atm
12:43 < ajonas> same with tsan
12:43 < wumpus> glozow: yes it's why your testmempoolaccept PR is failing the CI 
12:43 < michaelfolkson> glozow: Nothing else takes two hours as far as I know :)
12:43 < glozow> yes :’(
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12:43 < jonatack> michaelfolkson: i have the impression that it can vary quite a bit
12:44 < jnewbery> my proposal would be to remove the fuzz corpus testing from our CI. I also think separately we should all aim to drive down the CI time - fast feedback loops are really important
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12:45 < ajonas> sorry that's wrong https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/9vK4c0d1/Screen%20Shot%202021-05-20%20at%203.44.36%20PM.png
12:45 < ajonas> this is the last 7 days
12:45 < wumpus> left by itself the time taken by test frameworks seems to be forever increasing :)
12:45 < jnewbery> wumpus: yes :(
12:45 < jonatack> ajonas: thanks!
12:45 < ajonas> that's just the queue
12:46 < ajonas> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/8Cv7Yv85/Screen%20Shot%202021-05-20%20at%203.45.46%20PM.png
12:46 < ajonas> that's the build duration
12:46 < jnewbery> ajonas: is that data pulled from cirrus?
12:46 < ajonas> yes
12:47 < michaelfolkson> So ACK on removing fuzzer from CI. Does there need to be a separate conversation on the increasing time taken by test frameworks? Or is it inevitable that slowly goes up over time?
12:47 < jnewbery> it's good to have that data
12:47 < sipa> there is always the possibility of splitting up a very slow CI target in two
12:47 < lightlike> has there ever been an instance where the fuzzer corpus run found a bug on a PR?
12:48 < jnewbery> It doesn't match what I'm seeing on some PRs. For example 20833 has failed many times in a row because the fuzzer times out after two hours
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12:48 < jnewbery> that seems unlikely if the mean really is 40 minutes
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12:48 < wumpus> yes, i'm also fine with removing the fuzzer from the CI, i think it was mostly useful to that the fuzz tests got compiled, but that's the default now
12:48 < jnewbery> unless there's something in that PR that causes the fuzzer job time to triple
12:50 < sipa> jnewbery: maybe it's only the mean of successful jobs?
12:50 < ajonas> definitely possible
12:50 < ajonas> can check on that
12:50 < michaelfolkson> lightlike: I'm not sure from the CI on a PR. But many bugs found by fuzzing generally https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/Fuzz-Trophies
12:50 < glozow> this might be a dumb question but can we just run fuzz tests that are changed in the pr?
12:51 < sipa> glozow: not sure how we'd do that
12:51 < glozow> me neither 😅
12:51 < sipa> michaelfolkson: those are all due to actual fuzzing
12:52 < michaelfolkson> sipa: Ok
12:52 < jnewbery> I'm also not sure of the value of running a fuzz corpus derived from an old branch on the new branch
12:52 < sipa> jnewbery: it could detect certain regressions
12:52 < jnewbery> either the code is the same and you're running the same executions, or the code is different and the fuzz corpus won't penetrate very deeply into the new code paths
12:53 < sipa> jnewbery: i think that's a bit unnuanced
12:53 < jnewbery> maybe I just don't understand the idea of corpuses
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12:53 < sipa> you're certainly right for certain types of changes, but not all
12:53 < jnewbery> sipa: probably :)
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12:54 < ajonas> I don’t know think a slow and fast makes sense.  Fanquake also brought up that much of the Mac build is brew installing stuff. We can do better.
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12:54 < sipa> in any case, i agree that there is little value in running these tests in CI on every PR
12:54 < ajonas> That was garbled. A slow and fast test separation makes sense.
12:54 < jnewbery> I think there's probably more analysis to be done. Knowing how many regressions were caught by running the fuzz corpus would be really interesting
12:55 < sipa> jnewbery: a useful test could be trying to reintroduce an old bug that was found by fuzzing
12:55 < jnewbery> do we have a CI job on the master branch after every merge? Would that be a better place for this test?
12:55 < sipa> (but without straight up reverting the code)
12:55 < sipa> jnewbery: i think so
12:55 < jnewbery> I know we used to with Travis. I'm not very familiar with the cirrus config
12:55 < sipa> hmm, not sure either
12:56 < sipa> MarcoFalke: ^
12:56 < hebasto> yes we have
12:56 < sipa> https://cirrus-ci.com/build/5945300410957824 e.g.
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12:57 < sipa> so it seems we indeed do
12:57 < jnewbery> https://cirrus-ci.com/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/master
12:57 < jnewbery> it looks like many of those jobs have timed out after 2 hours as well :(
12:58 < sipa> well ne reason why those would be faster than the CI ones
12:58 < sipa> *no
12:58 < jnewbery> I guess there must be huge variance in the fuzz job time
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12:59 < wumpus> meeting ending in a bit
12:59 < ajonas> Chaincode has a dashboard that we can clean up and make available.
13:00 < ajonas> Happy to do that if there is interest.
13:00 < jnewbery> ajonas: thanks for all your work looking into this. I think it'll be really useful once we have reliable, fast CI
13:00 < jnewbery> makes a huge difference
13:00 < ajonas> Marco has done great work getting the functional test suite in shape.
13:01 < jnewbery> thanks MarcoFalke!
13:01 < ajonas> Lots still to do but help is appreciated.
13:01 < jnewbery> I don't have anything else to add
13:01 < jnewbery> (in this meeting)
13:01 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:01 < core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
13:01 < core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu May 20 20:01:40 2021 UTC.  
13:01 < core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-05-20-19.02.moin.txt
13:01 < jnewbery> thanks wumpus!
13:01 < midnight> kkk/w 29
13:02 < midnight> er. sorry.
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13:02 < sipa> jonatack: am i missing something here? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21843#discussion_r636431728
13:02 < sipa> (pinging directly so i don't forget this; i'm happy to fix it if needed)
13:04 < jnewbery> glozow: it looks like the fuzz job got a lot faster after #21931 was merged: https://cirrus-ci.com/build/5207270301630464. Perhaps try rebasing on recent master
13:04 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21931 | ci: Bump cirrus fuzz CPUs to avoid timeout by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #21931 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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13:06 < glozow> jnewbery: will do
13:06 < jonatack> sipa: saw your comment via email notifs, looking at it
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13:06 < michaelfolkson> ajonas: Re dashboard, yeah at least personally I'd be interested in anything you are able to open source/make public
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13:09 < michaelfolkson> Presumably anything that is found from oss-fuzz will be added to the fuzz trophies page
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13:10 < bitcoin-git> [gui] laanwj merged pull request #281: set shortcuts for console's resize buttons (master...mul-shortcuts-resize) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/281
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13:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/37e9f07996d3...710c8ba82953
13:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4ee9ee7 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Use native presentation of shortcut
13:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a2e122f Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Add GUIUtil::AddButtonShortcut
13:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2a45134 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Add shortcuts for console font resize buttons
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13:12 < jnewbery> sipa: isn't the for loop bounded by the size of vRandom? How would you get an infinite loop?
13:14 < sipa> jnewbery: oh you're right
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13:14 < jnewbery> phew
13:14 < jonatack> yes
13:15 < sipa> i should learn to read instead of assuming i know what code does...
13:16 < jonatack> thanks for checking
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13:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #22008: wallet: Cleanup and refactor CreateTransactionInternal (master...refactor-createtx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22008
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14:02 < bitcoin-git> [gui] hebasto merged pull request #335: test: Use QSignalSpy instead of QEventLoop (master...apptest-spy) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/335
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14:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/710c8ba82953...e2b55cd20103
14:03 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7eea659 Jarol Rodriguez: qt, test: use qsignalspy instead of qeventloop
14:03 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2b55cd Hennadii Stepanov: Merge bitcoin-core/gui#335: test: Use QSignalSpy instead of QEventLoop
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14:40 < aj> jnewbery: i think the variance in fuzz time is that the job is "[compile] [fuzz] [add compile results to ccache]" -- if a previous job succeeded in <2h, ccache is up to date making compile much quicker; but if not, compile is slow, fuzz is slow, and 2h elapses before ccache gets updated causing every run to fail?
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16:37 < murch> I've registered the nickname "murch" on Libera.
16:39 < aj> i'm _aj_ :(
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17:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #22009: wallet: Decide which coin selection solution to use based on waste metric (master...cs-waste-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22009
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22:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ajtowns opened pull request #22013: net: ignore block-relay-only peers when skipping DNS seed (master...202105-ignoreblockrelayfordnsskip) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22013
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23:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e2b55cd20103...18cf1c51652f
23:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f152c1a fanquake: build: libevent 2.1.12-stable
23:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 18cf1c5 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21991: build: libevent 2.1.12-stable
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23:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21991: build: libevent 2.1.12-stable (master...libevent_2_1_12) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21991
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23:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/18cf1c51652f...1cc38d3e01c7
23:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 793b268 Anthony Towns: txmempool: add thread safety annotations
23:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1cc38d3 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22003: txmempool: add thread safety annotations
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23:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #22003: txmempool: add thread safety annotations (master...202105-mempoolguards) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22003
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--- Log closed Fri May 21 00:00:01 2021