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02:28 < Guest99100> Hi, I'm looking for someone to help me dig up old bitcoin-dev archives. I'm analyzing consensus change events in Bitcoin for a research project, and have realized that there is an important gap in the IRC logs that I'm looking at. The missing samples are mainly 2015-07-03, 2015-07-04 and 2015-07-05. I've gathered chat-logs in this period from
02:28 < Guest99100> http://azure.erisian.com.au/~aj/tmp/irc/, but I've also looked for archives in bitcoinstats by using web archives such as https://web.archive.org/web/20170415065445/http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/07/04 and https://archive.vn. Could anyone help me with this?
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03:46 < michaelfolkson> Guest99100: I can't help with your missing logs but I'd recommend looking at the #bitcoin-core-dev log archives too if you haven't already. I suspect a lot of consensus discussions were on that channel as the separation between Core as an implementation and the protocol was potentially less understood/less recognized 5-6 years ago
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04:15 < Guest99100> michaelfolkson Thanks for the reply. I have noticed the Bitcoin-core-dev channel as well, though I have worked my way from old to new chats (Currently in 2015). Do you have any idea when the core team 'officially' switched from bitcoin-dev ti butcoin-core-dev?
04:17 < michaelfolkson> Guest99100: No, sorry. Not without looking at the logs like you are doing. And obviously nothing is "official", it is just where people ended up having discussions on IRC
04:17 < michaelfolkson> Someone else may be able to help, I wasn't around :)
04:19 < Guest99100> Alright, thanks anyway :)
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04:24 < meshcollider> Well, this would indicate ~Feb/Mar 2016: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/commit/16ece3641f40add8bddd356493b6e42b7ec86e2f#diff-8337c7bfbf82b1170969d744b6db0f59d99a8c9b66bcc1477c86eaf90abdc8fe
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04:32 < Guest99100> meshcollider indeed, thanks!
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05:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8df7eee5e1c8...810ce36d54e4
05:40 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa8d492 MarcoFalke: rest: Return error when header count is not integral
05:40 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 810ce36 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23213: rest: Return error when header count is not i...
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05:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23213: rest: Return error when header count is not integral (master...2110-restInt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23213
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07:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #23267: test: bip125-replaceable in listsinceblock (master...2021-10-test-bip125-listsinceblock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23267
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08:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] prayank23 opened pull request #23268: p2p: Use absolute FQDN for DNS seed domains (master...dns-seed-fqdn) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23268
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10:05 < achow101> is anyone else unable to reach github right now?
10:06 < cfields> wfm. web and git fetch.
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11:06 < TallTim> I can resolve it, if it helps.
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11:15 < cfields> sipa: what do you think about a c++ shim-wrapper (like aes.cpp for ctaes) around secp for Core, so we could build it as c++? With tighter integration, that'd save us from having to add all of the c buildsystem machinery for the single secp object.
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15:49 < davidbak> I'm a little confused about GPG signing commits - is this for everyone who contributes (e.g., commits in a PR need to be signed) or just for the maintainers who do the merge to master/
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15:56 < gene> davidbak: pretty sure all commits should be GPG signed
15:58 < gene> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#rebasing-changes
15:59 < gene> contributors are encouraged to sign, merge commits must be signed
15:59 < gene> hrm, looks like merge commits have the "should be signed"
16:00 < davidbak> ok, that's what I saw, just wanted to make sure it was definitive, thanks (because, maybe practice had changed without the doc getting update)
16:00 < gene> that's just my reading of the section. maintainers will have a more definitive answer
16:01 < davidbak> ah, ok i'll wait
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16:10 < sipa> davidbak: i think most contributors do not sign their commits
16:10 < sipa> i generally don't
16:10 < sipa> when a maintainer merges a PR, that _must_ be signed (CI will set off alarms when it isn't)
16:11 < davidbak> ok! that's the validation I wanted (because setting up GPG on my system might lead to running down a rathole I'd rather not do at the moment when I'm keen on getting the bitcoin core build running)
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16:14 < davidbak> speaking of which - is there a container already set up for building bitcoin core? I didn't spot anything like that at github.com/bitcoin or github.com/bitcoin-core
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16:20 < gene> found an unofficial docker repo: https://github.com/amacneil/docker-bitcoin (old and archived)
16:22 < gene> looks like fanquake also has a docker image used in the guix build
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16:23 < gene> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/ci
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16:30 < sipa> there are a few more unofficial ones
16:31 < sipa> https://github.com/jamesob/docker-bitcoind
16:33 < sipa> also some discussion on an project-maintained one here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/packaging/issues/55
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16:37 < gene> sipa: do you think it would be worthwhile to investigate LXC container builds?
16:39 < sipa> gene: who would use it?
16:39 < gene> me :)
16:39 < gene> seriously though, anyone who wanted a container setup without installing docker
16:40 < sipa> ok, i'm not really familiar with either of them
16:42 < gene> LXC is linux specific, built by Canonical
16:43 < gene> you can also setup LXC to be rootless, where I think dockerd always needs root
16:44 < gene> pretty sure LXC is also more lightweight than docker
16:46 < gene> LXC doesn't have the community/proprietary split that docker uses
16:46 < davidbak> i'm not a docker fanboy, and have no stake in this, but you know, consider the use case - docker is ubiquitous, and sufficiently free for individual developers, and lightweight isn't really an issue for development/build machines (unlike deployment targets), etc. etc.  but that's just what occurs to me.
16:46 < sipa> my understanding is that LXC is a much more low-level isolation mechanism, and that docker actually used LXC under the hood on certain systems
16:47 < davidbak> and I wasn't looking for anything _supported_ by the project (though that would have been nice) just something to get me rolling, i'll look at those repos you found for me, gene
16:47 < sipa> that said, i haven't directly used either
16:47 < gene> davidbak: right, for CI it's less important. more thinking for poeople that wanted a container on a constrained device
16:47 < davidbak> i think that's true too: I just saw a page that said something like that
16:48 < sipa> davidbak: i think it'd be cool to have a project-maintained docker image; the question is really just who would build/maintain it, as it seems so far nobody has stepped up
16:48 < davidbak> ah! my use case wasn't _running_ bitcoin core (i've got _that_ set up) but building - a container that had all tools + dependencies would be sweet ...
16:48 < gene> davidbak: don't skip the packaging issue sipa linked, it has more community repos
16:48 < sipa> oh, for building, i recommend guix actually
16:48 < davidbak> i know, well, if I get there ... i'll speak up and volunteer ...
16:48 < sipa> that's what is used for release builds since 22.0
16:48 < davidbak> ok
16:49  * gene still needs to try guix builds
16:49 < sipa> and apart from guix itself (which can be a pain...), it needs no basically nothing
16:49 < sipa> or, slightly more lowlevel/lightweight, the depends build system
16:50 < sipa> this requires C++ compilers etc from the host system, but not much else, as the dependencies are fetch/built automatically
16:50 < davidbak> huh, i'll look at that - guix labels itself as a 'package manager' that can 'instantiate and manage unix-like oses' - didn't occur to me that it was a build mechanism for an individual project
16:50 < davidbak> (or could be used as such)
16:51 < sipa> davidbak: it's not a very obvious choice no, but i think it's amazing
16:51 < gene> guix useful for reproducible builds since you can statically define deps
16:51 < sipa> because it's designed to be deterministic and reproducable from the bottom up
16:51 < gene> jinx
16:51 < davidbak> well i see now at wikipedia that it is built on top of Nix and I know what _that_ is, so yes, I'll consider it thank you!
16:52 < sipa> so it lets bitcoin core's build script (the contrib/guix/guix-build) instantiate an exactly specified build environment, with exact versions of compilers, dependencies, everything
16:52 < sipa> it's inspired by nix, not built on top of
16:55 < davidbak> ok, well, the wikipedia article says "based on" several times, I misinterpreted that
16:56 < davidbak> but interesting: Guix itself can run in a Docker container! so ... that might be the way to go ... i'll report back next week ...
16:56 < sipa> sure, or in any VM
16:57 < sipa> in recent debian/ubuntu it's just apt install guix, and you're good
16:57 < fanquake> both approaches of that are exampled here: https://github.com/fanquake/core-review/tree/master/guix
16:57 < sipa> also, this discussion is perhaps more appropriate for #bitcoin-core-builds
16:57 < fanquake> install guix binary on alpine, or apt install guix on debian
16:58 < davidbak> this is great! thanks both of you for your help!  seriously, I wouldnt have looked at the guix stuff in the tree for awhile becuase I assumed (<=mistake!) it was for packaging up your artifacts _after_ building!
16:59 < sipa> so the outermost layer for release builds is guix, which creates the deterministic env to build in
16:59 < davidbak> i'll check out that channel too, yep
16:59 < sipa> then inside that, the depends system is invoked (which you can also invoke yourself directly, if you like release-like builds apart from the determinism), which builds dependencies
17:00 < sipa> which on its turn invokes the normal autogen/configure/make build scripts
17:00 < sipa> (which again, you can invoke yourself, if you just want to build for development, and that's also what i'd recommend)
17:00 < fanquake> note that depends itself is also deterministic, just that if you use it locally it's not deterministic against other builders 
17:00 < sipa> ^
17:00 < davidbak> just curious - are there any discussions anywhere on why the build system is the way it is?
17:01 < fanquake> due to differing toolchains etc
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17:01 < sipa> guix is _just_ replacing an older system called gitian
17:01 < sipa> which pretty much was the first thing to even try reproducible building anywhere
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17:02 < sipa> for bitcoin core we really want reproducibility, because of the view that maintainers should be trusted the least amount possible
17:02 < sipa> e.g. no auto-update (because whoever has the keys to push an update could hijact the network's consensus rules, pretty much)
17:03 < sipa> the reproducibility helps, because it means we can commit to specific published binaries, and anyone can attest to the fact that these binaries indeed correspond to the source code available on github (and mirrors)
17:03 < sipa> in fact, the release process involves various contributors publishing such GPG attestations
17:04 < davidbak> well reproducible builds are good for many reasons, bitcoin obviously depends on that for trust (and reliability of the consensus) but over the years there _have_ been other tools developed, that have gained traction in the overall C++ community, that address that well. As a newbie I AM NOT COMING IN AND CRITICIZING or saying "Why aren't you doing thing in this obvious better way, you old fogies!?" - but as a very long 
17:04 < davidbak> time C++ dev with lots of commercial experience yet still not UNIVERSAL development experience I'm always look to learn the pros/cons of different programming styles, software engineering techniques, build systems, etc etc.
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17:05 < fanquake> reproducibility is also good because the idea that you could end up with two differently functioning monies from the same source code is just nuts
17:05 < sipa> davidbak: as far as i know, actual reproducible builds in C++ is pretty recent
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17:06 < sipa> until a few years ago, GCC used randomness at compile time; now it exposes a way to set a specific seed for that randomness
17:06 < gene> was the randomness used for name mangling?
17:07 < gene> s/was/is
17:07 < sipa> bitcoin core contributors have contributed patches to various building/system tools to make sure nothing breaks the reproducibility
17:07 < davidbak> oh yeah, because just to name one thing, compilers/linkers love to insert timestamps into object files and binary executables, but the _goal_ has been around since embedded systems started using C a long long time ago and people addressed it in various ways: locking down toolchains, locking down external libraries, etc. etc. all trying to reach accountability - even if bit-for-bit binary reproducibility wasn't achievable.
17:08 < davidbak> i do get all this - and plenty of people are working on reproducible builds, not just bitcoin - and it still isn't available out-of-the-box without work
17:08 < davidbak> but, _because_ there are other people working on it, there are multiple solutions.
17:08 < sipa> i don't really know of any off the shelf usable ones for us
17:09 < sipa> i mean, besides just running the build in a fixed container - which is what we used to do with gitian
17:09 < sipa> but then you get the question of where the container comes from etc
17:10 < davidbak> well as far as _build systems_ go: bazel, to name one, can give you reproducible builds given that your toolchains can give you reproducible builds.  it's functional, like Nix, and requires all dependencies to be explicit and locked down, and it really works.  
17:10 < fanquake> There may be multiple solutions, but Bitcoin Core has had a solution to this problem for ~10 years now, and Guix is a good next step.
17:10 < sipa> davidbak: oh, that's not the issue
17:10 < davidbak> but i'm not proselytizing, i'm just curious/interested.
17:10 < davidbak> what's not the issue?
17:10 < sipa> davidbak: that won't give you reproducibility between different systems that have different compiler versions
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17:11 < davidbak> how does the bitcoin build system give you that?  
17:11 < davidbak> an arm build is obviously different than an x64 build, a windows build different from a ubuntu build ...
17:11 < sipa> davidbak: guix gives us that, because it compiles the compiler, bootstrapped from the smallest possible piece of binary that exists (to the best of my knowledge)
17:12 < sipa> at an exactly specified version
17:12 < sipa> along with all system libraries etc
17:12 < fanquake> and then all of our dependencies are *locked down* in our depends system
17:12 < gene> isn't Bazel a facebook product?
17:12 < sipa> i think bazel would be a reasonable alternative for our hand-rolled depends system
17:13 < sipa> except that it'd imply (yet) another build system to maintain, as afaik it doesn't integrate with autotools/configure/makefiles
17:13 < davidbak> bazel is the open-source version of a google internal product - though well supported (and most of the contributors are googlers afaik) facebook has a _different_ c++ build system, called buck.  As I said, there's a _lot_ of work in this space
17:13 < sipa> in any case, this isn't the hard part
17:14 < davidbak> no, bazel is a world of its own, doesn't like to operate with any other build system at all.  It's all or nothing, pretty much!
17:14 < davidbak> so, as I said, I'm not shilling for it.  Just wanted to know the tradeoffs.
17:14 < sipa> the hard part is an exactly reproducible build environment
17:14 < davidbak> And if guix builds from the compiler - or even more importantly, the libc/libc++ layer UP, that's pretty damn locked down, and i don't think that's a typical use case for bazel (possibly not even supported, don't know)
17:15 < davidbak> (i mean, _including_+ the libc/libc++ layer)
17:15 < sipa> davidbak: well, yes, i'm not lying when i say you and i, on our home desktop systems, on different linux distributions, with different versions of everything, will very realistically succeed in producing bit for bit identical bitcoin core binaries if you run the guix-based build system
17:16 < davidbak> i'm definitely looking forward to seeing that happen!
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17:16 < sipa> well, it's how it works today
17:16 < sipa> 22.0 was built and released this way
17:16 < davidbak> i get you that it works today!  and when I get it running here on my system, I'll have seen it happen!
17:16 < sipa> ah, yes, i encourage you try
17:17 < fanquake> apt install guix && ./contrib/guix/guix-build and you should be good to go
17:17 < sipa> oh, and about the different systems: everything is cross-compiled from the Linux environment guix offers (including windows binaries using mingw, and macOS binaries using apple-patched clang)
17:19 < davidbak> amazing! well, off I go to build a VM for it (as a first cut, not ready to try it in WSL until it's working "native") and that's interesting about the windows binaries too - BUT!!!
17:19 < sipa> ha, i wonder if guix would work in WSL... not unreasonable that it does, i think
17:19 < sipa> (but i have no clue)
17:20 < davidbak> but w.r.t. the windows build - there are instructions for building with Visual Studio/MSVC. Which is obviously NOT mingw.  So if you build that way (for development purposes) that's not going to be binary compatible.  So that must be for developers only, not for release?
17:20 < sipa> exactly
17:20 < davidbak> ok
17:21 < sipa> it's not too different from just being able to build with make, using whatever compiler you want (e.g. clang on linux, while the release binaries are built with gcc)
17:22 < sipa> plus, having CI test more build environments than just those used for release builds helps find certain issues w.r.t. language violations in the codebase or unintentional architecture dependencies
17:22 < sipa> at some point we had a CI target that involved building for, and testing in a CPU emulator, an s390x target, because it's big endian
17:23 < sipa> but iirc it was too slow
17:23 < davidbak> Yes.  Different compilers == different warnings/errors, especially as the C++ standard allows a bunch of stuff to go undiagnosed and be "implementation defined" but building with multiple compilers increases your chance that at least one of them will warn you of a problem like that.
17:23 < davidbak> Huh.  So the mainframe guys wanting to run bitcoin core on big iron might run into incompatibilities, eh?
17:24 < davidbak> Can't say that's a use case I personally would spend much time on ....
17:24 < sipa> no, neither am i
17:25 < sipa> but i am interested in knowing that our codebase doesn't unintentionally assume little-endianness anywhere, because if it does, that's a red flag for undefined/unspecified behavior
17:25 < davidbak> ok, i'm off  - I appreciate your time (and of course, your information)!
17:25 < sipa> yw
17:25 < davidbak> yes - but ... i'm sure there's a static analysis for that _somewhere_?
17:26 < sipa> yes, presumably, but afaik most of those tools are proprietary
17:27 < davidbak> one more comment: i especially find the endianness issue funny for bitcoin because in addition to the usual on-the-wire format vs. internal representation issues you typically get bitcoin also has - for some unknown historical reason? - the issue of people _visualizing_ addresses/hashes/etc differently than the internal representation - how the heck did _that_ happen?
17:27 < sipa> building/testing with sanitizers also catches most of such issues
17:27 < sipa> but who knows - maybe not everything
17:27 < sipa> davidbak: it's actually perfectly consistent if you know the history ;)
17:28 < sipa> bitcoin historically treated all byte arrays as little-endian numbers
17:28 < sipa> it also treated SHA256 as a black box - something you send bytes, and it gives 32 bytes - which are then interpreted as a little-endian number (just like anything else)
17:28 < davidbak> (history: looking forward to the "retrospective" papers/books being published about 10yrs from now ...)
17:29 < davidbak> ok, so far you're all little-endian THE WAY IT SHOULD BE! - what's next in the history?
17:29 < sipa> the same is true for other cryptographic constructs (e.g. ECDSA signatures contain big-endian serialized numbers, but from bitcoin's perspective, they're just byte arrays)
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17:29 < sipa> now, in block hashes, the hash is actually interpreted as a number, in order to compare it with the target (for proof of work)
17:30 < sipa> so the _number_ was printed for human consumption - who typically want largest digit first
17:30 < sipa> if you forget that it's a number, a think it's a hexdump of a 32-byte array, that means it indeed looks swapped compared to the wire format
17:31 < sipa> but if you think of it as a hex number for human consumption, it's exactly right
17:31 < sipa> ... of course, that method of formatting hashes was then used for everything, including txids and many other things, where the numerical representation is meaningless
17:31 < davidbak> so the confusion is that the consumers (I guess) of hashes for the purpose of looking at "how many leading zeros" they have (already an approximation to the truth) aren't PROGRAMMERS!
17:32 < sipa> i like your thinking
17:32 < davidbak> sadly, it's the only thinking I have ...
17:32 < sipa> there is AFAIK one exception to "everything is little endian"... the TCP port rumoured in addr messages on the network is big endian
17:32 < davidbak> I've been thinking this way for 50 years, ever since my 9th grade math teacher - a laid-off rocket engineer (seriously) - got bored teaching math one day and gave us a 45 minute class in FORTRAN.
17:33 < sipa> because network stuff is always big endian for some reason, and i think the original code just copied the bytes
17:33 < davidbak> network is always bigendian for historical reasons
17:33 < sipa> yeah, i'm aware
17:33 < sipa> ntohs and friends make that clear
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17:34 < davidbak> anyway, gotta go - speak to you again after I get this set up ... or ... if I run into trouble!
17:34 < sipa> cya
17:34 < gene> ./
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20:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/810ce36d54e4...39872f5ed43d
20:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 38fd709 fanquake: build: make --enable-werror just -Werror
20:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 39872f5 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23149: build: make --enable-werror just -Werror
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20:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23149: build: make --enable-werror just -Werror (master...make_enable_werror_full_werror) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23149
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22:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/39872f5ed43d...a9f642870849
22:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7e88f61 Russell Yanofsky: multiprocess: Make interfaces::Chain::isTaprootActive non-const
22:20 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a9f6428 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23003: multiprocess: Make interfaces::Chain::isTapro...
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22:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23003: multiprocess: Make interfaces::Chain::isTaprootActive non-const (master...pr/ipc-tapc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23003
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22:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #23269: build: remove redundant warning flags (master...further_flag_cleanup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23269
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 13 00:00:34 2021