--- Log opened Tue Nov 02 00:00:21 2021
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01:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5adc5c02800f...76886ce11e85
01:43 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c02a674 Hennadii Stepanov: doc: Add output script descriptors BIPs 380..386
01:43 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 76886ce MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23410: doc: Add output script descriptors BIPs 380.....
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01:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23410: doc: Add output script descriptors BIPs 380..386 (master...211101-bips) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23410
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03:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dougEfresh closed pull request #23337: tests: Add assert_less_than and assert_less_than_or_equal to test framework (master...23119-assert_less) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23337
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05:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/76886ce11e85...9e3f7dcaa2f8
05:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8c96008 Troy Giorshev: [net] Don't return an optional from TransportDeserializer::GetMessage()
05:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f3e451b Troy Giorshev: [net] Replace GetID() with id in TransportDeserializer constructor
05:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9e3f7dc MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22735: [net] Don't return an optional from Transport...
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05:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #22735: [net] Don't return an optional from TransportDeserializer::GetMessage() (master...2021-08-20364-rebased) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22735
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07:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23416: doc: Remove fee delta TODO from txmempool.cpp (master...2111-docFeeDelta) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23416
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07:53 < ryanofsky> Could I get #21206 added to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 now that #22766 is off?
07:53 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21206 | refactor: Make CWalletTx sync state type-safe by ryanofsky · Pull Request #21206 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:53 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22766 | refactor: Clarify and disable unused ArgsManager flags by ryanofsky · Pull Request #22766 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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09:39 < provoostenator> The addrman documentation is pretty clear about when put stuff _into_ a "tried" bucket, but I'm having a hard time understanding when we actually use the tried bucket over the new bucket.
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09:42 < provoostenator> Inside the Select() implementation it says there's a 50% chance of using the tried or the new table.
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09:44 < provoostenator> And Select() is called in net.cpp when making outbound connections. So that part makes sense.
09:47 < provoostenator> IIUC in response to GetAddr we use both new and tried,  but do  check against IsTerrible?
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10:42 < lightlike> provoostenator: correct, Select() first flips a coin between new/tried, and then searches inside the respective table until it's found an address. GetAddr() picks randomly non-terrible addresses, it doesn't take care whether they are in new or tried
10:48 < provoostenator> And addresses that we proactively gossip?
10:49 < sipa> there is no such thing
10:50 < sipa> we gossip addresses (a) our own, periodically (b) relaying addrs received from other peers (c) in response to getaddr
10:50 < provoostenator> Right, I meant (b)
10:50 < sipa> addrman isn't involved there
10:51 < provoostenator> I see, not even a check against IsTerrible?
10:51 < sipa> maybe, let me check
10:52 < sipa> nope, just against banning/discouraging
10:52 < provoostenator> Context: I'm tring to understand #22387 and https://arxiv.org/abs/2108.00815
10:52 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22387 | Rate limit the processing of rumoured addresses by sipa · Pull Request #22387 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:52 < provoostenator> I first assumed we would only relay tried addresses, but that's obviously not so.
10:53 < provoostenator> Presumably because then there'd be too few?
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10:56 < sipa> generally rumoured addresses wouldn't be things we already know
10:57 < sipa> so perhaps you're suggesting is that rumoured addr messages should be drawn from addrman rather than from what we receive from others?
10:57 < sipa> that's... not impossible, but very different from what we call relay
10:57 < provoostenator> Not so much suggesting, but wondering why.
10:58 < sipa> well the idea is that when you gossip your own address, the expectation is that it will generally reach a substantial fraction of the network nodes
10:58 < sipa> not just your peers
10:59 < provoostenator> It would indeed propagate very slowly if your peers first had to check it and their peers, etc.
10:59 < provoostenator> R=0.0001 slowly :-)
10:59 < sipa> idd
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11:00 < provoostenator> So (b) is only done to serve (a)? (even though of course we can't check that it's not used to broadcast other stuff)
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11:01 < sipa> indeed, (b) is what makes (a) relay to the entire network
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11:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #23417: wallet, spkm: Move key management from DescriptorScriptPubKeyMan to wallet level KeyManager (master...wallet-keyman) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23417
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12:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23418:  Fix signed integer overflow in prioritisetransaction RPC  (master...2111-txPoolPrioOverflow) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23418
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12:56 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9e3f7dcaa2f8...3c4729a515d8
12:56 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6ae9f1c Jon Atack: Disable lock contention logging in checkqueue_tests
12:56 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3c4729a MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23223: Disable lock contention logging in checkqueue...
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12:56 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23223: Disable lock contention logging in checkqueue_tests  (master...alleviate-checkqueue-tests-contention-logging) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23223
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13:01 < satoshi> Discussion about the recent version number change. #proposedmeetingtopic
13:04 < shiza> It was a bad idea, but it's done now. Save your strength.
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13:21 < fjahr> shiza: Why was it a bad idea?
13:24 < shiza> It creates unnecesary confusion in users and breaks a lot of unimportant deployment pipelines. It wastes store in version defines.
13:26 < shiza> It was an unnecesary change with just a few unimportant benefits for a lot of unimportant disadvantages.
13:27 < shiza> But everybody knew that, so it's OK.
13:30 < shiza> Good sign such an unimportant change is a source of dissent.
13:39 < sipa> "it wastes store" ?
13:42 < shiza> that was quite poorly worded, but what I mean is unimportant as well
13:43 < sipa> i don't understand; the version define didn't even change
13:43 < sipa> but i'm also not going to argue about it again :)
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13:45 < shiza> I assumed Bitcoin uses a Boost style version define.
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13:46 < shiza> Something like 210000 bumping to 220000
13:47 < sipa> perhaps look at the actual code change before commenting on it :)
13:47 < sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20223
13:47 < sipa> 0.21 had CLIENT_VERSION 210000, 22.0 has 220000
13:48 < shiza> I promise I read the whole commit (weeks ago)
13:49 < shiza> I was promptly unamused by the change as much as by not having good arguments against it
13:49 < sipa> haha
13:51 < satoshi> The original format originally indicated time, as part of the timestamp.
13:52 < sipa> i have no idea what you're talking about
13:52 < satoshi> Example: Bitcoin 0.1.0 - 2009:01:07 01:00:00
13:53 < shiza> The date is redundant information there. Resides in the repository.
13:54 < satoshi> The current version number should be 2.2.0
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13:56 < shiza> Old clients don't care if future clients are 22.0 or 2.2.0
13:57 < shiza> The unbroken protocol is all that matters.
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14:08 < satoshi> Linux kernel version history probably a good reference to illustrate why the current versioning in Bitcoin is wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_version_history
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14:14 < shiza> Those are tidy version numbers compared to bumping 0 to 22. But the beauty doesn't justify a revision of the topic.
14:15 < shiza> Rolling back costs more than keeping forward.
14:16 < shiza> Anyway, old wallets are going to start causing problems, so better warn users early that things are moving faster now.
14:16 < satoshi> Would correct myself, the current version number should be Bitcoin 0.22.0.  Reaching 0.99 is not that far in future, Reaching 1.0.0 would have the CLIENT_VERSION 1 million.  It makes more sense to me, than reaching 99.0 in 15 years.  This is not a rush for highest CLIENT_VERSION.
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14:19 < satoshi> CLIENT_VERSION would flip to a million in a few years from now.  We should not do that, after us there will be many releases.  It makes sense to keep the version format as it was otherwise the flip happens faster than it should.
14:19 < sipa> CLIENT_VERSION _has not changed_
14:19 < satoshi> it will change when reached 99.0
14:20 < satoshi> CLIENT_VERSION will be 1000000
14:20 < sipa> that's entirely orthogonal to the version naming discussion
14:20 < sipa> The old version scheme was woefully obsolete; it had basically digressed into effectively being 0.MAJOR.MINOR, where the 0 was redundant. There were reasonable discussions to be had about whether that was sufficient to justify replacing it, and about what the new scheme should be. But we're not going to revert back to a older worse scheme. This discussion is pointless.
14:20 < earnestly> https://0ver.org/
14:21 < satoshi> earnestly thanks
14:22 < shiza> wkhtmltopdf embraces 0ver, and wkhtmltopdf can't be wrong!
14:22 < earnestly> Just have a number, then number go up
14:24 < satoshi> https://0ver.org/ still listing Bitcoin.
14:25 < sipa> Version 0.0.1 of ZeroVer was published by Mahmoud Hashemi, with help from Moshe, Mark, Kurt, and other patient collaborators, on 2018-04-01. ZeroVer is satire, please do not use it. We sincerely hope no project release schedules were harmed as a result of this humble attempt at programmer humor.
14:26 < sipa> -- https://0ver.org/about.html
14:27 < satoshi> I see it, they start from 0.0.1 which is not how Bitcoin started.  Bitcoin 0.1.0
14:28 < sipa> The whole thing is a joke. Seriously.
14:28 < luke-jr> satoshi: .99 does not become 1.0
14:28 < satoshi> sipa is this a joke to you? https://bitcoincore.org/en/lifecycle/
14:28 < sipa> satoshi: 0ver.org is a joke
14:29 < sipa> It's making fun of projects that never manage to get rid of their 0-based version number.
14:29 < shiza> bitcoincore.org source is public, you can propose fixes to it
14:31 < luke-jr> would make more sense to bump to 22.0.1 for the first bugfix release instead of 22.1, but is it worth arguing? not so sure
14:32 < earnestly> I'm surprised the satire wasn't obvious, those leading quotes are excellent
14:33 < earnestly> Version numbers don't really need to mean anything.  A single number that increases is usually enough.  What does .1 add?  All it signals is "This is a version you don't have to update to"
14:34 < earnestly> Some add meaning like semver for API/ABI changes, etc.  It's often not enough in practice and people end up doing version pinning through git checkouts
14:34 < luke-jr> earnestly: it doesn't signal that; you need a way to express "fixes only" vs "new features"
14:34 < satoshi> luke-jr I don't see any problem with that, technically 0.999.0 would produce CLIENT_VERSION 9990000.  Bitcoin 2.1.0 would be 21000000.
14:34 < luke-jr> earnestly: consider the recent 0.20.x release
14:34 < earnestly> In both cases it's just indicating "You don't have to update"
14:35 < luke-jr> earnestly: it's more important to upgrade for fixes (.1) than features (.0)
14:35 < sipa> https://github.com/mahmoud/zerover/issues/112
14:35 < earnestly> I don't know anymore, I've spent so many years looking at this, and I just can't see it as a long term viable model.  In the end it doesn't really matter and people do what they want
14:36 < earnestly> But in general, and thankfully so, more people are realising that just keeping things up to date is a much better strategy than any notion of patching, backporting, etc.
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14:36 < luke-jr> earnestly: it's not
14:37 < earnestly> Considering backporting empricially doesn't even work
14:37 < shiza> In a world that Bitcoin never hard forks itself, the leading 0 is unnecesary. 
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14:37 < luke-jr> of course it does
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14:37 < earnestly> Not even redhat and debian can keep up with the CVEs, let alone the non-CVEs
14:37 < luke-jr> shiza: the version is for Bitcoin Core, not Bitcoin
14:37 < earnestly> That's how you get glibc GHOST
14:37 < luke-jr> earnestly: nobody said backporting needs to be centralised
14:38 < earnestly> So no, backporting is a fools game.  Security researchers have been calling this out for over a decade now
14:38 < shiza> I need more sleep, obviously.
14:38 < earnestly> So, people are learning, slowly
14:38 < earnestly> luke-jr: There is no backporting outside of people dedicated, and paid, to do so.  Everything else is version pinning
14:38 < luke-jr> earnestly: bleeding edge introduces new vulns
14:39 < earnestly> This is true, it introduces unknowns.  But addressing the knowns is more valuable
14:39 < luke-jr> that's what backports do
14:39 < earnestly> In theory this is true but in practice it doesn't pan out
14:40 < earnestly> It could be one of those 80/20 things at best but even then it's not even close
14:40 < earnestly> (And that's just for stuff which is open source, and backportable)
14:40 < shiza> You are both right, unfortunately.
14:40 < luke-jr> earnestly: are you saying Core 0.20.2 has known vulnerabilities?
14:41 < luke-jr> what isn't panning out with it?
14:41 < earnestly> I assume any non-trivial codebase has them
14:41 < earnestly> backporting doesn't scale, it doesn't work as a strategy
14:41 < lightlike> sipa: your zerover Issue seems unnecessary to me, Bitcoin is rightfully listed in the "Emeritii" section as a former member of the club.
14:41 < luke-jr> 0.20.2 is likely more secure than 22.0 (aside from the impending degradation of 0.20 due to Taproot)
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14:42 < earnestly> You can have a microcosm of developers and users maintaining backporting for a specific bit of software for some time but eventually they burn out and stop
14:42 < sipa> lightlike: OH!
14:42 < luke-jr> earnestly: it extends the lifetime
14:42 < shiza> earnestly: a single active branch difficults planning upgrades
14:42 < luke-jr> earnestly: it gives the newer versions more time to mature, and have their bugs worked out
14:42 < sipa> Certainly backport releases get much less testing than master, and that's unfortunate. But we're also not going to stop creating backports. Sometimes new features actually unintentionally interfere with how the software is used by some.
14:43 < earnestly> shiza: branch management is outside of it
14:43 < sipa> earnestly: i really have no idea what you're talking about
14:43 < earnestly> luke-jr: At the same rate it regresses the bug discovery rate as fewer use it
14:43 < sipa> the project maintainers create backport releases, just along with new releases
14:43 < luke-jr> earnestly: no, not the same rate
14:43 < earnestly> Not all project maintainers do that
14:43 < shiza> earnestly: no, if you only maintain master, distros can't keep up to it, and people is forced to compile compilers
14:44 < luke-jr> earnestly: bugs discovered in 22.0 that predate it will get fixed in backports
14:44 < sipa> earnestly: this channel is about Bitcoin Core development
14:44 < earnestly> shiza: I'm not suggesting that
14:44 < sipa> i'm not talking about anything else
14:44 < luke-jr> ^
14:44 < earnestly> sipa: I'm only mentioning it to luke-jr, not you
14:44 < luke-jr> earnestly: blaming backports because some people don't do backports, is nonsense
14:44 < earnestly> I didn't blame backports for anything
14:44 < sipa> certainly if nobody used the backport releases at all, we shouldn't make them
14:45 < earnestly> Yeah, that sort of thing is completely up to you
14:45 < sipa> but they are used; not nearly as much as new releases, but they see usage
14:45 < sipa> earnestly: i have no idea what you're trying to argue for, or against, then
14:45 < earnestly> Yeah, backporting and patches are still quite common for the time being
14:45 < luke-jr> On another note, any idea if this is legit C++? namespace x { class y { static void z(); }; }
14:46 < luke-jr> or do you need the full class definition?
14:46 < sipa> luke-jr: legal
14:46 < luke-jr> sipa: ty
14:46 < sipa> you can have a "void x::y::z() { ... }" or "namespace x { void y::z() { ... } }" afterwards to provide the definition
14:46 < earnestly> shiza: (fwiw, I did once make a distro with nothing but HEAD/tip versions of everything from glibc, mpfr, etc. to linux, ffmpeg, etc.)
14:47 < shiza> earnestly: I understood your point (the second time)
14:48 < luke-jr> earnestly: sounds like Gentoo with ACCEPT_KEYWORDS=⁑ :p
14:48 < luke-jr> (minus the Unicode ofc)
14:49 < earnestly> It was a LFS style thing
14:49 < earnestly> (CLFS specifically)
14:49 < fjahr> #23154 seems to be ready for merge
14:49 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23154 | doc: add assumeutxo notes by jamesob · Pull Request #23154 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
14:51 < earnestly> luke-jr: (On a side note, I can't express how nice git (or any vcs) for providing a nice standard way to pull/clone/checkout all these repos)
14:56 < luke-jr> sipa: what if x::y::z is private in the real class? :x
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14:59 < sipa> luke-jr: doesn't matter, afaict
15:00 < sipa> private/protected/public is about access to members from other classes
15:01 < sipa> it's not about where the implementation code can live
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15:02 < satoshi> Bitcoin 0.1.0 : static const int VERSION = 101;   Bitcoin 0.3.0 : static const int VERSION = 300;   Bitcoin 0.10.0 : return strprintf("%d.%d.%d", nVersion / 1000000, (nVersion / 10000) % 100, (nVersion / 100) % 100);  Additional: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0014.mediawiki
15:09 < sipa> satoshi: that change was made in release v0.3.13, in september 2010, by satoshi
15:10 < sipa> commit a790fa46f40d751307f86c37a709eb119768ce5b
15:10 < sipa> Author: s_nakamoto <s_nakamoto@1a98c847-1fd6-4fd8-948a-caf3550aa51b>
15:10 < sipa> Date:   Thu Sep 30 16:23:07 2010 +0000
15:10 < sipa> don't count or spend payments until they have 1 confirmation, misc cleanup, changed internal version number from 312 to 31300 -- version 0.3.13
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15:24 < satoshi> BIP 14: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0014.mediawiki should be followed.  Changing from 0.21.x to 22.x is disruptive.
15:25 < sipa> satoshi: you seem to have problems reading
15:25 < sipa> BIP14 is about separating the protocol version from the implementation version
15:27 < sipa> it's not dictating how implementations choose to set their version numbers (in fact, it's the opposite; it's letting them choose it independently from the protocol version number)
15:27 < sipa> anyway, this discussion is going nowhere
15:27 < sipa> at this point i'm going to assume you're a troll
15:29 < satoshi> We talking about Bitcoin Core not the version number of Spesmilo.
15:34 < satoshi> BIP 14 don't say that we should have 22.0, it is however referring to RFC 1945
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15:56 < satoshi> sipa, can you link me the discussion about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8f7b93047581c67f2133cdb8c7845471de66c30f
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18:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] prius opened pull request #23420: [MyPy] Correct typing for @subtest decorator (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23420
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18:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23423: Delete SECURITY.md (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23423
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18:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23424: Delete .gitignore (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23424
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18:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23425: Delete .cirrus.yml (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23425
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18:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23426: Delete COPYING (master...patch-4) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23426
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18:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23424: Delete .gitignore (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23424
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18:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23427: Delete Makefile.am (master...patch-5) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23427
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18:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23425: Delete .cirrus.yml (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23425
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18:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23428: Delete bug_report.md (master...patch-6) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23428
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18:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23423: Delete SECURITY.md (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23423
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18:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23427: Delete Makefile.am (master...patch-5) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23427
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18:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23429: Update README.md (master...patch-7) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23429
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18:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nnihsotas opened pull request #23430: Delete .editorconfig (master...patch-8) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23430
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18:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23426: Delete COPYING (master...patch-4) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23426
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18:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23428: Delete bug_report.md (master...patch-6) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23428
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18:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23429: Update README.md (master...patch-7) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23429
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18:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23430: Delete .editorconfig (master...patch-8) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23430
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19:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] rooprob closed pull request #23277: wallet: Add size check on meta.key_origin.path (master...bugfix/21605-segfault-in-legacyscriptpubkeyman) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23277
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 03 00:00:22 2021