--- Log opened Tue Nov 09 00:00:27 2021
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00:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c702d1fefddc...49143477e774
00:54 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b971858 fanquake: doc: remove Boost build note from build-unix.md
00:54 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ea360d6 fanquake: doc: remove redundant optionals from build-unix.md
00:54 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4914347 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23469: doc: Remove Boost build note from build-unix....
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01:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/49143477e774...94db963de501
01:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master facc352 MarcoFalke: test: Implicitly sync after generate*, unless opted out
01:00 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 94db963 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23300: test: Implicitly sync after generate*, unless...
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01:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23469: doc: Remove Boost build note from build-unix.md (master...remove_boost_note) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23469
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01:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23300: test: Implicitly sync after generate*, unless opted out (master...2110-testSyncImp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23300
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01:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #22567: test: Implicitly sync after generate* to preempt races and intermittent test failures (master...2107-testSync) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22567
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01:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23474: test: scripted-diff cleanups after generate* changes (master...2107-testSync) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23474
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03:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #23475: wallet: add config to prioritize a solution that doesn't create change in coin selection  (master...2021-11-coinselection-option) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23475
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04:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/94db963de501...55dd38552446
04:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd9c6ad zealsham: wallet: Fixed Grammatical error in bdb.h
04:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 55dd385 W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23414: wallet: Fix comment grammar in bdb.h
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04:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23414: wallet: Fix comment grammar in bdb.h (master...wallet-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23414
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05:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/55dd38552446...cb4adbd8ab1b
05:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 79fd28c amadeuszpawlik: Adds verification step to Schnorr and ECDSA signing
05:13 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cb4adbd W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22934: Add verification to `Sign`, `SignCompact` and...
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05:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #22934: Add verification to `Sign`, `SignCompact` and `SignSchnorr` (master...schnorr_sig) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22934
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05:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23476: ci, qa: Adjust timeouts per test instead of global `--timeout-factor` (master...211109-timeout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23476
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06:25 < laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23470#issuecomment-964196414  i really think we're going too fast deprecating berkeleydb wallets
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06:26 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #23476: ci, qa: Adjust timeouts per test instead of global `--timeout-factor` (master...211109-timeout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23476
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06:35 < shiza> fanquake wants documentation not to misled new users to berkelydb. That's a good idea. 
06:36 < laanwj> i did this in build-unix.md by moving the (descriptor wallet) paragraphs to the top
06:37 < laanwj> that's fine, i just think it's too early to hide all of it away, and if you do, we're going to get a lot of complaines from people that can no longer open their wallet
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06:40 < sipa> laanwj: it does feel rushed
06:40 < sipa> i thought the plan wasn't to remove bdb wallets for a few years at least
06:41 < laanwj> this is only about removing the documentation, but still, yes, it feels rushed to me too
06:41 < sipa> right, i'm aware
06:42 < sipa> it's not because new wallets will by default by sqlite, that we can say that bdb support is something most users don't need to care about anymore
06:42 < laanwj> we have to acknowledge the fact that a lot of people will, for various reasons, still be using legacy wallets for a long time
06:42 < laanwj> right
06:42 < shiza> This doesn't remove the documentation, just demotes it to a file of its own.
06:43 < laanwj> i just think it's too early for that, let's wait a major release
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06:48 < jnewbery> it seems reasonable to me to collect the legacy wallet documentation into one place
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06:54 < sipa> perhaps, but it's going as far as not even listing the libdb dependency anymore
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06:54 < sipa> except under a one-sentence link "For information on the legacy wallet"
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06:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesob closed pull request #23468: make Python bindings externally usable (master...2021-10-python-packaging) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23468
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06:59 < jnewbery> #23381 is possible RFM
06:59 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23381 | validation/refactor: refactoring for package submission by glozow · Pull Request #23381 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:00 < laanwj> sipa: right, i think that's my problem with it
07:01 < laanwj> not the idea of condensing documentation; i'd be first to agree there's a lot of duplication between the different unix-flavor instructions
07:01 < laanwj> jnewbery: thanks, will take a look
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07:15 < fanquake> Not just duplication, a lot of it is just outright misleading for new users / builders
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07:16 < fanquake> “BDB is needed for wallet support” and similar is not correct. Anyone building Core today, shouldn’t have to care, or know about BDB.
07:17 < fanquake> In that case I don’t see the problem with not listing the bdb dependency outright, as it’s not going to be relevant to anyone reading the docs for the first time.
07:17 < earnestly> (Another concern is the version of it)
07:19 < fanquake> None of this is helped by the confusing reference to wallets by about 4 different names. BDB wallets vs legacy wallets vs SQLite wallets vs descriptor wallets vs just “the wallet” etc. Ideally we just have “the wallet” and legacy wallets, I don’t think descriptor is relevant, nor should really leak into build docs.
07:19 < sipa> fanquake: i'd expect most users building Bitcoin Core to want BDB support, for a few years at least
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07:20 < sipa> you're right that it's wrong to say it's "needed for wallet support", but that's very different from saying people shouldn't have to care about it?
07:20 < fanquake> sipa: not sure when I said that?
07:21 < sipa> you literally said that just here
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07:21 < fanquake> Yes, new users shouldn’t care?
07:21 < _aj_> "Anyone building Core today, shouldn’t have to care, or know about BDB"
07:21 < fanquake> Why would they use BDB wallets, which we are actively deprecating
07:22 < sipa> are we?
07:22 < sipa> there is huge difference between new users and everyone building bitcoin core
07:22 < sipa> yes, new wallets won't be BDB anymore
07:22 < fanquake> #20160
07:22 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20160 | Proposed Timeline for Legacy Wallet and BDB removal · Issue #20160 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:22 < _aj_> (they might have been using pre-compiled binaries befor, and only now have started building themselves too)
07:23 < sipa> hmm, that's a bit faster than i would have aimed for, but ok... we still intend to fully support bdb wallets until 2023 according to that
07:24 < sipa> i'd expect most users today to find it surprising that they can't load their existing wallets when building with the recommemded procedure
07:25 < fanquake> How to build with BDB is still going to be on the docs, just not spread all over the place, duplicating the same info.
07:26 < sipa> i'm not objecting to that
07:26 < sipa> only to removing it from the dependencies
07:26 < sipa> i feel like actual deprecation (like this documentation change seems to be) and how, is a discussion to be had when there is an actual migration path
07:26 < fanquake> It’s still going to be in depends, and have the script to build it as well
07:27 < sipa> well, not everyone builds that way
07:28 < fanquake> I don’t really no how we ended up with build docs that duplicate a list of our dependencies (separate from install instruction) in each build-* when we have a dependencies.md, although is a separate issue
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07:29 < sipa> fanquake: that's fair, and i have no objection whatsoever to improving that
07:30 < sipa> but i feel that someone just following build instruction, without following links to things marked as legacy, should end up with a binary that supports bdb wallets
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07:31 < _aj_> #23168 was really what removed it from the build dependencies, no?
07:31 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23168 | build: no-longer fail default configure if BDB isnt available by fanquake · Pull Request #23168 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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07:32 < fanquake> No. That just removed the incredibly annoying behaviour of having configure fail if you didn’t have BDB installed, and weren’t passing —disable-wallet
07:33 < gjvc> fanquake, yes.  that was annoying. :-/
07:34 < fanquake> A default configure invocation really shouldn’t fail if you’ve got the minimum required build dependencies installed, and don’t care about anything else.
07:34 < _aj_> passing --disable-bdb-wallet would have let you do sqlite only wallets too. the difference is what happens when you run ./configure naively, and don't have bdb installed -- do you get an error forcing you to not be naive, or do you get a bitcoind that won't open your wallet?
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07:35 < _aj_> s/would have/could have/
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07:35 < fanquake> You’ll likely get a bitcoind that will open SQLite wallets, but not BDB
07:36 < fanquake> It still warns in some cases, and will fail if you’ve exploited opted for BDB but don’t have the dependency
07:36 < fanquake> *explicitly
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07:39 < _aj_> yeah, i think for something as important as being able to open your old wallet, the default / implict behaviour should be "be able to open old wallets" unless you very explicitly opt-out (either with --disable-wallet or some --disable-bdb-wallet). otherwise you're going to give people heart attacks. just my opinion though, not my hill to die on
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07:39 < _aj_> so if you don't opt-out but don't have the dependencies, should be an error
07:39 < _aj_> (at configure time)
07:40 < fanquake> But, for the most part, won’t all these people who have already been compiling, have the dependencies, and thus will get the correct wallet support
07:41 < _aj_> maybe they switched to a new machine, or did an upgrade and lost some packages, or setup a new build chroot
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07:41 < _aj_> maybe they weren't compiling and are just starting
07:42 < fanquake> I don’t agree that having configure fail, by default, unless you install a maybe? “deprecated” dependency, or pass additional flags, is a good behaviour
07:42 < _aj_> maybe their old system got hacked and they're setting up a new system hoping that the hacker didn't copy their wallet.dat or they can at least sweep their funds before the attacker cracks their password
07:42 < fanquake> Especially not for a new user, or one that doesn’t care about the Core wallet etc
07:43 < _aj_> i don't think using existing bdb wallets should be / is deprecated yet
07:43 < fanquake> Right, so where do we draw the line for this then? Do we start hard failing of SQLite isn’t available too? To much the old behaviour?
07:45 < fanquake> It sounds like we need more discussion in #20160 then. As that currently states that we are going to mark legacy bdb wallets as deprecated started with 23.0
07:45 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20160 | Proposed Timeline for Legacy Wallet and BDB removal · Issue #20160 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:45 < _aj_> yeah, hard failing if you don't have sqlite dev and don't specify --disable-sqlite-wallet or --disable-wallet seems sensible to me if sqlite's the default going forward. same reasoning as --with-incompatible-bdb
07:45 < _aj_> it says marking the creation of new legacy bdb wallets as deprecated, not using existing bdb wallets
07:46 < sipa> having a migration tool also factors into this
07:46 < fanquake> And when loading legacy warn that they will soon be unsupported
07:46 < _aj_> presumably can't build the migration tool without bdb libraries available though?
07:46 < sipa> right
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07:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 11 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/cb4adbd8ab1b...e70fb87a4f8c
07:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0a79eab glozow: [validation] case-based constructors for ATMPArgs
07:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cbb3598 glozow: [validation/refactor] store precomputed txdata in workspace
07:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8fa2936 glozow: [validation] re-introduce bool for whether a transaction is RBF
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07:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23381: validation/refactor: refactoring for package submission (master...2021-10-validation-refactors) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23381
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07:47 < _aj_> fanquake: right, "soon be unsupported" ==> "currently completely supported"
07:47 < sipa> building the migration tool doesn't as strongly depend on having bdb 4.8 though; it can use later versions too
07:47 < sipa> which simplifies things somewhat
07:48 < fanquake> _aj_ sure, and “deprecated” is somewhere in between those two
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07:49 < fanquake> At least the failing without SQLite case is somewhat mitigated bu the fact that it is much more prevalent
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07:51 < _aj_> fanquake: well, the version doesn't matter much for everything but bdb which is a bigger deal? otherwise it's just "you need to install boost, sqlite, bdb, etc; do that; run configure"
07:52 < sipa> but if building the prospective migration tool will also require libdb, i'd say it's even more too early to not list libdb as a dependency anymore
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07:57 < laanwj> yes, the migration tool could use any bdb version, it can open the database read-only or if that's not possible, make a copy then open it, to prevent the source file from becoming incompatible
07:57 < achow101> fwiw, if you try to open a bdb wallet without having bdb compiled, you will be informed that BDB support was not compiled rather than a mysterious error
07:58 < achow101> I also have a version of the migration tool that will work without bdb entirely
07:58 < laanwj> that's neat, it does seem a bit more risky to me
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07:59 < laanwj> e.g. when you'd be reimplementing bdb reading logic, you'd want to be really sure to not accidentally lose keys
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08:02 < achow101> yeah. the idea is to first have a version that uses bdb, then later use the one without bdb. then we can test the bdb-less migration against the one with bdb using feature_backwards_compatibility.py (or something like that)
08:02 < laanwj> sounds good to me
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08:03 < Guest75> Hello.
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08:05 < Guest75>  #startmeeting
08:06 < Guest75> I read a news that the source codes of Bitcoin will be removed from github, what is the truth of this?
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08:30 < shiza> The migration tool supports incompatible bdb? Nice.
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09:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] RandyMcMillan closed pull request #23449: contrib/install_db4.sh: http_get if tar.gz does not exist (master...install-db4-check) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23449
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09:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e70fb87a4f8c...8ae4ba481ce8
09:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 037c9ee Sebastian Falbesoner: fix `XOnlyPubKey::IsFullyValid` comment reference
09:12 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8ae4ba4 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23400: doc: fix `XOnlyPubKey::IsFullyValid` comment ...
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09:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23400: doc: fix `XOnlyPubKey::IsFullyValid` comment reference (master...202110-doc-fix_xonlypubkey_isvalid_comment) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23400
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09:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #23477: addrman: tidy-ups to unit tests (master...2021-11-addrman-tidyups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23477
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13:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 closed pull request #20096: wallet: Remove WalletDatabase refcounting and enforce only one Batch access the database at a time (master...rm-bdb-refcount) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20096
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13:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23478: build: Add support for Android NDK r23 LTS (master...211109-binutils) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23478
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15:47 < Chris_Stewart_5> What is the purpose of this HandleMissingData() : https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/77a2f5d30c5ecb764b8a7c098492e1f5cdec90f0/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L1714
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15:55 < Chris_Stewart_5> I guess i don't understand why we wouldn't fail earlier if data is missing rather than failing in the signature checker/interpreter
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17:13 < jeremyrubin> It's a recent refactoring iirc 
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17:14 < jeremyrubin> Chris_Stewart_5 we used to just have asserts this lets us do something more with handle missing data (e.g. perhaps even some kind of effect system down the road?)
17:16 < jeremyrubin> I think it's also hard because the interpreter is spaghetti code imo; we have multiple execution contexts (taproot, segwit v0, bare, p2sh) that might each require different data. So we need to provide different data per type of execution, unless we want validation to be more expensive and always ensure all caches. 
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18:02 < sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: nothing but the script interpreter knows what kind of spending logic is involved; it could be tested elsewhere, but that would mean duplicating logic
18:02 < sipa> in the validation logic, all data is always available, and if it isn't, that'd be a very serious code bug (but we still prefer an assert over incorrect validation)
18:03 < sipa> but in the signing code, there is no knowing what data may or may not be available - some APIs don't permit passing in the full list of spent UTXOs for example, and they're in use... and there is also no problem because they don't involve taproot
18:04 < sipa> so we're faced with two contradictory behaviors... in some contexts you want validation to fail with missing data, and in some you want to assert because you're convinced they should never be called without the data available
18:05 < sipa> jeremyrubin: if it was just for validation purposes, HandleMissingData wouldn't be needed; we could just always assert
18:05 < sipa> but the script interpreter is also used to sanity check created signatures etc
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20:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #23480: Add rawtr() descriptor for P2TR with specified (tweaked) output key (master...202110_untweakedtr) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23480
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--- Log closed Wed Nov 10 00:00:28 2021