--- Log opened Thu Nov 11 00:00:21 2021
--- Day changed Thu Nov 11 2021
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02:35 < hebasto> Cirrus CI fails with a "Building AOSP is only supported via ROM-builders organization!" banner which links to https://github.com/ROM-builders -- why our repos are affected?
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04:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f63bf05e73ea...d217ee25a397
04:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 467fe57 Pavel Safronov: test: Correct MyPy typing for subtest decorator
04:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d217ee2 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23420: test: Correct MyPy typing for subtest decorat...
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04:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23420: test: Correct MyPy typing for subtest decorator (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23420
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05:12 < xbxice> hola 
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05:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d217ee25a397...bc03823e26d1
05:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6cac99a Alex Groce: Add a brief overview of fuzzing/Bitcoin Core fuzzing
05:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bc03823 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23482: doc: Add a brief overview of fuzzing/Bitcoin ...
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05:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23482: doc: Add a brief overview of fuzzing/Bitcoin Core fuzzing (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23482
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08:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23486: rpc: Avoid returning P2SH for witness_v1_taproot in decodescript (master...2111-rpcScript) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23486
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10:43 < laanwj> hebasto:strange
10:44 < laanwj> that's an android thing apparently?!?
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10:54 < fjahr> #proposedmeetingtopic Some ASMap questions
10:56 < hebasto> laanwj: reported to support, and it is fixed now
10:57 < laanwj> hebasto: thanks
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11:00 < laanwj> #startmeeting
11:00 < core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 11 19:00:09 2021 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
11:00 < core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
11:00 < hebasto> hi
11:00 < provoostenator> hi
11:00 < fjahr> hi
11:00 < michaelfolkson> hi
11:00 < laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
11:00 < laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
11:01 < ariard> hi
11:01 < larryruane> Hi
11:01 < laanwj> one proposed meeting topic for this week: Some ASMap questions (fjahr)
11:02 < laanwj> any other topics people want to discuss in the meeting?
11:03 < michaelfolkson> Maybe quickly on bitcoincore.org
11:03 < laanwj> #topic High priority for review
11:03 < core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
11:03 < sipa> hi
11:03 < laanwj> michaelfolkson: ok
11:03 < dongcarl> hi
11:04 < laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8   currently 11 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK
11:04 < laanwj> anything to add, remove, or that is almost ready for merge?
11:05 < sipa> what is the status with #23114 ?
11:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23114 | Add minisketch subtree and integrate into build/test by fanquake · Pull Request #23114 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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11:06 < laanwj> sipa: i think it's ready or very close to
11:07 < sipa> yeah just not sure if anyone is waiting for something
11:08 < laanwj> sipa: no, thanks for reminding me
11:09 < laanwj> nothing to change in blockers? moving on to next topic, then
11:09 < laanwj> #topic Some ASMap questions (fjahr)
11:09 < core-meetingbot> topic: Some ASMap questions (fjahr)
11:09 < fjahr> Hi! In coordination with Gleb I am working on getting ASMap bucketing the attention that it deserves. As many probably know, the feature was merged almost 2 years ago and is currently opt-in.
11:09 < fjahr> If you want to use the feature without trusting someone’s random file you have to build and run a couple of scripts in order to create the file yourself. This was intentional, allowing those interested and savvy enough to use the feature with making it the default. It seems now the time has come to make asmap the default.
11:10 < fjahr> I am still doing a lot of research on what the process of creating the “official” asmap file should look like ideally. I will come back with more info on that, but for now I have a few questions with the goal of nailing down a few other pieces of the puzzle.
11:10 < fjahr> First of all I want to renew Gleb’s call to action here (see https://blog.bitmex.com/call-to-action-testing-and-improving-asmap/) and ask anyone to share feedback if there is any that you haven’t shared with Gleb already. Please let me know if you have been running the feature made any experiences worth sharing (good or bad could both be helpful)!
11:11 < laanwj> yes, it now has been experimental for quite a while, people tested it and didn't find any critical issues
11:11 < sipa> i think the big questions are around tooling & process for distributing/integrating an asmap file
11:11 < laanwj> though there are some practical issues with integrating the file into the build process
11:11 < sipa> not the lookup code itself
11:12 < laanwj> right
11:12 < fjahr> sipa: what is the lookup code?
11:13 < sipa> fjahr: the currently integrated asmap code in bitcoin core, i mean
11:13 < sipa> that looks up ASNs in the asmap file
11:13 < fjahr> ah, ok, yeah
11:14 < fjahr> So, one question on tooling in the wider sense: Technically #18573 has received enough concept acks but I liked Sjors’ suggestion to put it into bitcoin-util, which might make it easier to pull out the functionality later on. Some people have noted that putting it in a separate library would be good for reuse in other projects, others would like to see that code shipped with core. I think this is a good middle ground for now. Does 
11:14 < fjahr> anyone have objections? (I know a better question to ask in the issue but I thought, while I am here…)
11:14 < laanwj> e.g. one thing to consider, besides deterministic build details, is how to ship it, to embed the data into the binary is not practical because then bitcoind and bitcoin-qt would both need a copy
11:14 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18573 | [RFC] bitcoin-asmap utility by sipa · Pull Request #18573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:15 < laanwj> no, no objections with adding it to bitcoin-util
11:15 < _aj_> +1 on adding it to bitcoin-util
11:16 < sipa> the problem is really that it can't be made deterministic, as there is no authoritative source
11:16 < fjahr> laanwj: hm, my impression was that shipping it included in a release would be the most practical option
11:16 < luke-jr> separate is usually better
11:16 < laanwj> better than adding yet another binary
11:16 < sipa> there are many ways of gathering source data of ASNs, like downloading it from certain providers, or if you're BlueMatt, generating it from your own BGP router
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11:17 < laanwj> fjahr: yes, but that would imply a deterministic build, and some way for the bitcoind/bitcoin-qt to automatically find the file that was downloaded with the distribution, i mean
11:17 < fjahr> sipa: yes, I am actively researching this part so I would like to keep this discussion for another time :)
11:17 < sipa> fjahr: surew
11:17 < laanwj> it could be something simple like 'look in the directory of the binary' or a relative path or whatnot
11:18 < sipa> what tooling do we expect to have? i think we want ways to encode/decode/lookup (as the current code has), but probably always ways of diffing/patching, and perhaps other kinds of analysis
11:18 < laanwj> in any case it's something that needs to be considered, clearly not in thismeeting
11:18 < luke-jr> laanwj: the directory of the binary can be /usr/bin :p
11:18 < sipa> do we imagine all of these to become separate commands in bitcoin-util?
11:18 < laanwj> luke-jr: yes, it's different for linux and windows maybe
11:18 < laanwj> sipa: i suppose so
11:19 < luke-jr> why the push to put it in the Core repo? it has nothing to do with Bitcoin and is a generally useful thing…?
11:19 < _aj_> sipa: either "bitcoin-util asmap {encode,decode,lookup}" or "bitcoin-util {asmap-encode,asmap-decode,asmap-lookup}"
11:19 < fjahr> yeah, that's what I am thinking too but I first want to have a clear picture which commands are really helpful
11:20 < sipa> luke-jr: well the obvious question is which is most likely to progress - there are barriers/overhead to creating yet another repository to maintain
11:20 < sipa> i agree it's potentially generally useful though, but as long as it doesn't get built, it's nothing at all
11:20 < laanwj> luke-jr: not sure if you're talking about the utilities or the file here, but the asmap file is not going to be in the repo, the idea is to put the utilities there for now it can always be spun off
11:20 < sipa> i was talking about the tools
11:21 < sipa> so my thinking is that if starting the project as being something integrated into core results in it being actually useful/used, it can be spun off
11:21 < laanwj> if someone wants to maintain separate asmap utilties might be better to wait until other projects actually want to use it
11:21 < fjahr> luke-jr: also some people noted it would be better to have the the tools right there so people would not need to get another tool for the auditing. But long term I absolutely agree.
11:22 < luke-jr> they're no more "right there" than any other tool :/
11:22 < fjahr> sipa, laanwj: I agree, let's see if there is actual interest
11:23 < sipa> i don't think the "right here" matters that much - normal users won't be using these tools
11:23 < sipa> it's just a matter of getting the project going
11:24 < michaelfolkson> +1
11:24 < laanwj> i'm also against scope creep, but, in bitcoin-util doesn't seem to be a big problem, it's some maintenance cost, sure, but no attack surface or bug risk for running nodes
11:24 < luke-jr> the only overhead I know of is writing a configure script; if that's the issue, I can try to make time to put one together
11:24 < laanwj> of course, there already *is* the bitcoin-maintainer-tools repository where it could go
11:24 < sipa> luke-jr: there is also just management overhead; you need maintainers for a project, who are active, ...
11:24 < laanwj> but that's also bitcoin speicifc
11:24 < sipa> reviewers, who care to look at the repo
11:24 < luke-jr> sipa: that's true no matter what repo it's part of
11:24 < laanwj> (well, github-merge.py does see some externral use)
11:25 < lightlike> if the plan is  to have some kind of ceremony for each release, in which multiple contributors are going to build the asmap that would be distributed with it and compare these in some way, I think it might make sense to have it in the repo
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11:26 < laanwj> lightlike: i don't think it matters for that if the tools are in the repo or a separate one for that?
11:26 < sipa> we'll definitely wants scripts/tooling specific to the creation/ceremony of the bitcoin-core-shipped asmap file in our repo, but that doesn't require the software tools involved to be there too
11:27 < laanwj> the main difference is whether they're versioned in tandem with bitcoin core itself
11:27 < sipa> right
11:27 < laanwj> sipa: yes, true
11:28 < _aj_> unless the format changes, you'd want to use the latest asmap file even if you're running an old bitcoind for some reason, no?
11:28 < sipa> _aj_: that's a good point
11:28 < laanwj> that makes sense
11:28 < fjahr> yeah, I would suggest we create a new repo in the org which hosts all of the asmap files that are shipped with each release. The historic ones would be interesting for auditing and the newest ones can be used by users of older releases that still wish to run with a newer asmap file.
11:29 < laanwj> agree, a separate repository for the asmap files definitely a good idea
11:29 < laanwj> the build process has to get them from somewhere too
11:29 < luke-jr> which makes the case for a separate tool repo even stronger IMO
11:30 < fjahr> Related to that, in terms of releasing the updated “official” ASMaps I am thinking that once with every release (major and minor) will be sufficient. Some people suggested a higher frequency but it is not clear yet if that is a significant win in terms of security and it would produce more work for maintainers.
11:30 < laanwj> what's the argument against putting the tools in bitcoin-maintainer-tools
11:30 < fjahr> Of course if my research ends up suggesting otherwise, I would propose a higher frequency
11:30 < _aj_> encoding/decoding is presumably easier with all the code already in bitcoind?
11:30 < luke-jr> laanwj: they're not Bitcoin-related? :P
11:30 < laanwj> it's for maintainers / very involved developers anyway
11:31 < _aj_> (though using the python code would probably be just as easy as using the c++ code, i guess?)
11:31 < sipa> _aj_: the code in bitcoin core currently only does lookup
11:31 < laanwj> the language doesn't matter that much
11:31 < _aj_> sipa: i mean #18573
11:31 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18573 | [RFC] bitcoin-asmap utility by sipa · Pull Request #18573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:31 < sipa> ah yes
11:32 < laanwj> sure, currently all the maintainer tools are python, but there's no reason there couldn't be c++ code there
11:32 < luke-jr> fjahr: maybe update them when there are major changes, but at least once every 6 months?
11:32 < laanwj> i'm sure that's advantegous from a performance perspective
11:32 < laanwj> it's quite a lot of data to crunch isn't it?
11:32 < _aj_> i'm +1 on either bitcoin-util or adding to the maintainer tools repo, whichever actually gets a PR
11:33 < laanwj> yes, no strong opinion either really
11:33 < fjahr> luke-jr: it will be very hard to define what a major change is but I am working on getting a better picture on that
11:33 < laanwj> but creating yet another repo for the tools seems suboptimal to me right now
11:34 < laanwj> but if someone wants to commit to maintaining this i'm also not strongly against it
11:34 < laanwj> exactly, whatever gets a PR
11:34 < _aj_> laanwj: should the asmap data be in its own repo, or some other one?
11:35 < laanwj> _aj_: asmap *files* should get their own repo
11:35 < laanwj> not the same one as the tools in any case :)
11:35 < _aj_> sgtm
11:35 < laanwj> i think that's straightforward, no maintenance there, just put the file in the repo when it's done
11:35 < laanwj> same as the various -sigs ones
11:36 < fjahr> Ok, last question for now: I think it would be good to provide a startup parameter that allows switching back to /16 if people feel they want to do that. So basically forcing the 'asmap file missing' case. Should there also be a comfortable option to switch for GUI users or is it not needed? (asking this as a true GUI noob)
11:37 < laanwj> if it's a startup parameter it could also be an option in the GUI options dialog
11:37 < laanwj> not that much work
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11:37 < fjahr> ok, sounds good
11:37 < _aj_> fjahr: -noasmap ?
11:38 < fjahr> _aj_: didn't think about a name but yeah
11:38 < laanwj> though it maybe somewhat obscure and hard to explain for GUI end users, the people diving so deep into network specifics are likely able to edit bitcoin.conf 
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11:39 < laanwj> e.g. imagine translators being confronted with stuff about autonomous systems :-)
11:39 < fjahr> heh, true
11:40 < laanwj> next topic?
11:40 < fjahr> Unless there are other comments, that's it from me, thanks for the input!
11:40 < laanwj> no problem, thanks for your work on this
11:40 < sipa> cool
11:40 < laanwj> #topic Maybe quickly on bitcoincore.org (michaelfolkson)
11:40 < core-meetingbot> topic: Maybe quickly on bitcoincore.org (michaelfolkson)
11:41 < michaelfolkson> Ok so I was looking through bitcoincore.org and I was wondering if I was missing some historical context on the purpose of the site
11:41 < laanwj> it basically has one purpose: downloading the software
11:41 < michaelfolkson> It was heavily used for the SegWit soft fork and for things like RBF info to users but hasn't been used at all for Taproot information really
11:42 < michaelfolkson> Ok and that's deliberate right?
11:42 < laanwj> there's also developer documentation on it under the doxygen subdomain
11:42 < laanwj> yes
11:42 < michaelfolkson> Ok that answers my question :)
11:43 < laanwj> agree there's some really outdated information on it
11:43 < michaelfolkson> I wondered if it was just because harding had less time these days or something. But good to know it is deliberate
11:43 < michaelfolkson> I can see the arguments for doing that too
11:43 < laanwj> or at least, stuff written against a very old context, like the RBF faq you mention
11:44 < michaelfolkson> Most of it is still interesting/a good read but yeah slightly outdated
11:44 < _aj_> optech and stackoverflow seem more popular places for that sort of info today; they weren't really options at the time
11:44 < laanwj> that's also part of the reason, there's also no one to do it, but i'm also not sure it should be done, there's enough information in other places
11:44 < laanwj> yes optech is great
11:44 < michaelfolkson> Ok cool, thanks
11:45 < laanwj> thanks, that concludes the meeting, i think, unless someone has another last minute topic
11:46 < laanwj> #endmeeting
11:46 < core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
11:46 < core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov 11 19:46:28 2021 UTC.  
11:46 < core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-11-11-19.00.moin.txt
11:48 < laanwj> fjahr: let me know when you need the asmap files repository (or i could just create it already)
11:50 < fjahr> laanwj: thanks, I will let you know or just go ahead, as you like :)
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12:16 < laanwj> fjahr: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/asmap-data
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12:38 < fjahr> laanwj: nice, thanks!
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17:22 < pinheadmz_> is there any taproot activity on testnet? or is it all on signet?
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17:26 < sipa> We don't always test consensus changes, but when we do, we do it on mainnet.
17:27 < pinheadmz_> lol sipa did you start drinking early ;-)
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17:33 < pinheadmz_> ok found some https://blockstream.info/testnet/address/tb1pzlm7sgt8s05k06988yp3nj2nsjaaqjfvgeja95t9dgz8ckrncfys70st06
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18:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 10 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bc03823e26d1...c1fb30633b6d
18:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b6487dc fanquake: Squashed 'src/minisketch/' content from commit 89629eb2c7
18:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 07f0a61 fanquake: Merge commit 'b6487dc4ef47ec9ea894eceac25f37d0b806f8aa' as 'src/minisketch'
18:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b2904ce Cory Fields: build: add configure checks for minisketch
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18:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23114: Add minisketch subtree and integrate into build/test (master...minisketch_integration_takeover) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23114
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18:05 < roasbeef> so have been debugging an issue w/ lnd and btcpay which led me to inquire w.r.t how many listening non-pruned nodes there actually are rn: https://twitter.com/roasbeef/status/1458977490160947200?s=20 
18:05 < roasbeef> does that figure look accurate to ppl? prepping to run a script on my own nodes peer.json/dat rn 
18:05 < roasbeef> background is that in lnd 0.13 we started to "officially" support pruned nodes by fetching blocks we need from the p2p network if the node doesn't have it 
18:06 < roasbeef> we get those peers from the connected set of the pruned node
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18:06 < roasbeef> but we're seeing issues where many of their peers are actually _also_ pruned, so lnd can't get the blocks it needs 
18:10 < roasbeef> I recall there was something lofty proposal for nodes to start advertising their block range/ guessing that never fully took off? 
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18:57 < sipa> roasbeef: there were some ideas around that, but i think that's what eventually turned into the NETWORK_LIMITED proposal
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18:57 < sipa> roasbeef: do you mean nodes look like they're pruned but advertizing it incorrectly?
19:14 < roasbeef> sipa: no I think they're advertising it correctly, just this situation where these pruned btcpay bitcoind nodes need to get blocks from peers, but turns out all their peers are actually pruned themselves 
19:15 < roasbeef> ran a script of one of my own btcd nodes, and out of the 37k peers in its peers.json, 1606 of them (4%) signal both witness and aren't pruned 
19:16 < roasbeef> this is just addrs it has, no guarantee all of them are actually live/reachable/listening 
19:19 < sipa> perhaps this is more a problem that too few of the addrs you learn are reachable/listening?
19:19 < sipa> (rather than too few of those listening/reachable ones being non-pruned)
19:20 < roasbeef> perhaps, but this isn't just my node, luke's stats (however they calcuated) show a similar percentage when taking into account all nodes he's ever seen 
19:20 < roasbeef> basically have bene trying to get to the bottom of this weird bug for btcpay server, and turns out it's that the nodes of all these users are only connected to other pruned nodes for the most part 
19:20 < sipa> interesting
19:21 < sipa> so is there some sort of clustering behavior, where pruned nodes are more likely to be connected to other pruned nodes than average?
19:22 < roasbeef> yeh not sure, perhaps? our code will also periodically poll getnodeaddresses as well to account for the fact that a node amy just have a set of poor connections
19:23 < luke-jr> well, with 8 outbound connections, that's only ~12%, so if archive nodes are <12%, it's fairly possible you might just not have one?
19:23 < roasbeef> but seems in practice that isn't helping out much either
19:23 < sipa> my own long-running node seems to have mostly pruned peers as outbounds as well
19:24 < roasbeef> the plot thickens...
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19:45 < jeremyrubin> We could add a rule to give inbound priority to unpruned nodes? It's not gameable since we can ask for a random piece of txdata as a challenge response game 
19:46 < jeremyrubin> E.g. oh you say you're a full node? Give me the nth txn in block at height x
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19:47 < jeremyrubin> Then you can spv check it and ban if not correct
19:47 < jeremyrubin> It isn't bad overhead since this is for outbound connections from the full node, so presumably were ok making that more expensive to do
19:48 < jeremyrubin> This can even be done on some basis (e.g. daily?) to ensure the node doesn't switch to pruned
19:53 < sipa> you can't ask for arbitrary transactions
19:53 < sipa> only full blocks
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19:55 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: if I have a full node, I can pass on the challenge ;)
19:56 < luke-jr> the real questionis why a node should insist on a peer being archival, unless it is in IBD..
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20:13 < sipa> right
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20:15 < achow101> are you sure they're all pruned? NETWORK and NETWORK_LIMITED aren't mutually exclusive
20:16 < sipa> oh!
20:17 < achow101> we advertise both without pruning, and just NETWORK_LIMITED if pruned
20:17 < sipa> only 3 out of my 10 outbound peers don't have NETWORK
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21:50 < jeremyrubin> sipa: if you can request a block you can definitely request a txn?
21:51 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr if you run archival it's low cost for you to do the challenge and it's only outbound peers (one you picked) doing the challenge also gets you a slot on that node you wouldn't otherwise get 
21:52 < jeremyrubin> A node should try to know how to reach one archival node to help new nodes join the network
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23:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #23489: build: Qt 5.15.2 (master...qt_5_15_2_rebased) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23489
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 12 00:00:30 2021