--- Log opened Thu Jan 13 00:00:17 2022
--- Day changed Thu Jan 13 2022
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00:36 < bitcoin-git> [gui] promag closed pull request #385: Always log context function of QtDebugMsg messages (master...2021-07-qdebug-func) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/385
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02:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/290ff5ef6d38...31db3dd874df
02:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 18f304d Hennadii Stepanov: build: Improve error message when pkg-config is not installed
02:24 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 31db3dd laanwj: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24048: build: Improve error message when pkg-config ...
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02:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #24048: build: Improve error message when pkg-config is not installed (master...220112-m4) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24048
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03:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #24054: test: rest /tx with an invalid/unknown txid (master...2022-01-rest-functional) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24054
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03:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24057: build: point to latest commit on 1.4.0 branch (master...actually_fix_guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24057
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03:35 < b10c> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23902 looks like spam to me and can be closed?
03:36 < fanquake> b10c: thanks. Not sure how that was missed
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03:42 < laanwj> sometimes, github hides (shadowbans?) accounts and their issues and somehow unhides them later, so they escape notice at creation
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04:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kallewoof opened pull request #24058: BIP-322 basic support (master...202201-bip322) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24058
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05:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #24047: Uninstall icon changed from default nsis to bitcoin (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24047
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07:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #24059: Fix implicit-integer-sign-change in arith_uint256 (master...2201-int) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24059
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09:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/31db3dd874df...767ee2e3a108
09:36 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 091ccc3 Perlover: The evhttp_connection_get_peer function from libevent changes the type of ...
09:36 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c62d763 Perlover: Necessary improvements to make configure work without libevent installed
09:36 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 767ee2e laanwj: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23607: rpc: Pass const char* to evhttp_connection_ge...
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09:36 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23607: rpc: Pass const char* to evhttp_connection_get_peer for new libevent (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23607
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09:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/767ee2e3a108...807169e10b4a
09:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2f79786 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: refactor: add constant for sequence number `SEQUENCE_FINAL`
09:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f30041c Sebastian Falbesoner: test: create txs with current `nVersion` (2) by default
09:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b24f6c6 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: MiniWallet: support default `from_node` for creating txs
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09:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #24035: test: use MiniWallet for mempool_accept.py (master...202201-test-use_MiniWallet_for_mempool_accept_etc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24035
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09:52 < achow101> S3RK: that is correct. mapTxSpends maps all spends to the txids that contains the spend
09:53 < achow101> that is necessary in order to detect conflicting incomining txs
09:54 < achow101> should've caught that before #22929 was merged... this behavior needs some tests
09:54 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22929 | wallet: Automatically add receiving destinations to the address book by S3RK · Pull Request #22929 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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10:24 < jeremyrubin> achow101 if i see a long-chain in the bottom of the mempool, and a some output in that is paying me, does core wallet save those transactions for rebroadcast?
10:25 < achow101> jeremyrubin: I think it will only save the ones that have outputs for it
10:26 < achow101> it won't pick up any ancestors or descendants
10:26 < sipa> the solution of course is making the mempool do the rebroadcasting :)
10:26 < MarcoFalke> sipa: The mempool will drop the txs after two weeks
10:27 < jeremyrubin> i'm writing an email about this. we should save all ancestors (obviously?) because they're required to claim our money
10:28 < jeremyrubin> we should also save all descendants, if they are paying a higher feerate and serve as a CPFP
10:28 < jeremyrubin> it seems odd that we'd save the one we have outputs for but not the unconfirmed parents, that seems like a definite bug
10:28 < achow101> as we add more (unrelated) txs to the wallet, it gets slower
10:29 < achow101> if there are a lot of unconfirmed ancestors and descendants, once they do confirm, that's just going to be junk sitting in the wallet forever
10:29 < sipa> they could be stored in a separate set of transactions, independent from mapwallet
10:29 < sipa> from which confirmed/conflicted things can be pruned
10:29 < jeremyrubin> i think engineering concerns / DoS aside, it's clearly rational to save these
10:29 < sipa> but otherwise don't really participate in wallet reasoning
10:30 < sipa> i agree it makes sense to store them
10:30 < jeremyrubin> i just wanted to check on what existing behavior was 
10:30 < jeremyrubin> when we go to spend and the txns exist in the mempool still, does coin-selection allow spending from unconfirmed account for CPFP cost for longchains?
10:30 < sipa> MarcoFalke: That's fair; the issue here isn't so much the rebroadcasting itself, but the forgetting?
10:30 < achow101> no
10:31 < jeremyrubin> so if you have a new wallet with 3 unconfirmeds that have different tx histories (e.g. 3 txs, 5 txs, 10txs) and you generate a spend what cost is used for those inputs?
10:31 < MarcoFalke> I guess the issue is both rebroadcasting and forgetting
10:31 < jeremyrubin> Just the satisfaction cost
10:32 < achow101> just the satisfaction cost
10:32 < jeremyrubin> kk, thanks
10:32 < achow101> iirc there's some consideration for whether we will exceed ancestor/descendant limits
10:32 < achow101> but only insofar as whether the utxo is available for selection
10:32 < sipa> seems reasonable to open an issue for it or so
10:32 < sipa> not sure if this is really ML material
10:33 < jeremyrubin> sipa hopefully im not being seen as spamming the ML
10:34 < sipa> i just don't see how this concerns the ML... it's an issue with Bitcoin Core's wallet, only affecting the users of that wallet
10:34 < achow101> i agree that's not really ML material
10:34 < jeremyrubin> well it's not just an issue for core
10:34 < jeremyrubin> for any rational wallet
10:34 < jeremyrubin> the reason for the post is that one of the critiques of CTV/congestion control is 'look at all the wallet software we'd have to have for it to work well', whereas i think most of the things are rational behaviors (CTV or no) that wallets would implement once mempool gets more backlogged
10:35 < jeremyrubin> so i'm just describing the lifetime of a payment from the perspective of a rational wallet user during congested mempool
10:35 < sipa> Do other wallets even do rebroadcasting?
10:35 < achow101> the problem is that there are a lot of rational behaviors that wallet's should implement, but those are all hard to implement
10:36 < achow101> nevermind the fact that the most basic things are already difficult to do
10:36 < jeremyrubin> hence the email is documenting
10:36 < jeremyrubin> these are also things that aren't you do x and y would be cheaper. these are you don't do X and your wallet will lose payments.
10:37 < sipa> well, in theory, sure
10:37 < sipa> but in practice, if the mempool forgets about an unconfirmed ancestor of yours, with default policy, i think it's very likely the transaction just isn't going to confirm at all, and will probably be RBFed anyway.
10:38 < jeremyrubin> the RBF might e.g. double spend you
10:38 < jeremyrubin> so it'd be rational for you to CPFP from your output to speed up the conf
10:38 < jeremyrubin> depending on the amt of funds received
10:39 < achow101> we never spend external unconfirmed utxos unless the user acknowledges that it is dangerous to do so
10:39 < jeremyrubin> spend-to-self if you can't piggyback an actualpayment
10:39 < sipa> is it even possible to do that (without raw transaction interface), achow101 ?
10:39 < jeremyrubin> achow101: that sounds mildly irrational. spend your bad money first, good money later.
10:39 < achow101> sipa: see include_unsafe
10:40 < sipa> minconf=0 will still only spend your own unconfirmed UTXOs.
10:40 < jeremyrubin> why would i spend money that has ~0% risk when i have something at 100% risk i can derisk by spending?
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10:40 < achow101> jeremyrubin: huh? presumably you want your payment to go through
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10:40 < achow101> not potentially get stuck in limbo and maybe need an expert to fix the problem
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10:43 < jeremyrubin> achow101: why would CPFP'ing an unconfirmed require an expert to fix it?
10:43 < achow101> if the unconfirmed gets rbf'd
10:44 < achow101> perhaps not need an expert, but results in a confusing situation for your average user
10:44 < jeremyrubin> it's a fair point.
10:45 < jeremyrubin> still, in this case, there are two outcomes: RBF still pays you, now your payment is dead
10:45 < jeremyrubin> if the RBF is still paying you, you can reissue the txn and save on CPFP amount
10:45 < achow101> yeah but the original still shows up as an unconfirmed transaction
10:45 < jeremyrubin> if the RBF isn't paying you, then you should CPFP even more so as not to lose a payment to you
10:45 < jeremyrubin> (glozow hi package relay)
10:47 < achow101> imo we shouldn't do anything that might cause a user to need to reissue a payment. they will feel like they are double paying
10:47 < jeremyrubin> (this is also a good point in favor of txn sponsors / fee accounts, which if your TX spend was inconvenient (e.g. requiring a multisig) that having the ability to add third party fees is great)
10:47 < achow101> or they may not understand that the original payment attempt is dead
10:47 < jeremyrubin> achow101 that seems like a UI problem, not a reason to deviate from rationality
10:48 < jeremyrubin> the rational behavior should be supported, and the UI should simplify what has happened and explain it clearly. Those are largely separate concerns
10:48 < jeremyrubin> much more frustrating would be the case where I see an unconfirmed and i get double spent
10:48 < achow101> that's not a ui problem, that's a problem with time being linear
10:49 < jeremyrubin> ...
10:49 < achow101> "I sent the payment 2 days ago, now you're telling me I need to send it again?"
10:49 < achow101> people have memories
10:50 < achow101> regardless of what the ui shows, people will remember that they tried to pay previously
10:50 < jeremyrubin> I would assume that much of this can be automated
10:50 < jeremyrubin> it's not you having to reissue the payment, the wallet can prompt you "this payment failed because X"
10:50 < jeremyrubin> (also it strikes me that APO fixes some of this...)
10:51 < jeremyrubin> and the prompt can give you the tx to sign again.
10:51 < jeremyrubin> (or maybe even do it without permission explicitly)
10:52 < jeremyrubin> in any case it is definitely good to think about the UI concerns about understanding why / if payments get made. 
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11:00 < laanwj> #startmeeting
11:00 < core-meetingbot`> Meeting started Thu Jan 13 19:00:17 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
11:00 < core-meetingbot`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
11:00 < hebasto> hi
11:00 < laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
11:00 < laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
11:00 < achow101> hi
11:00 < michaelfolkson> hi
11:00 < cfields> hi
11:00 < laanwj> welcome to the weekly general bitcoin-core-dev meeting
11:01 < kvaciral[m]> hi
11:01 < b10c> hi
11:01 < provoostenator> hi
11:01 < laanwj> there have been no proposed meeting topics this week (this can be done using #proposedmeetingtopic <topic>), any last-minute ones?
11:02 < sipa> hi
11:03 < laanwj> #topic High priority for review
11:03 < core-meetingbot`> topic: High priority for review
11:04 < jonatack> hi
11:04 < laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 has 8 blockers, no bugfixes, 1 chasing concept ACK at the moment
11:04 < laanwj> anything to add, remove, or that is ready for merge?
11:05 < MarcoFalke> can i haz #23629 
11:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23629 | refactor tests to fix ubsan suppressions by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #23629 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:05 < jonatack> #22932 has ACKs by hebasto and achow101 (thanks!), might need one more
11:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22932 | Guard CBlockIndex::nStatus by cs_main, require GetBlockPos/GetUndoPos to hold cs_main by jonatack · Pull Request #22932 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:05 < _aj_> laanwj: #23508
11:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23508 | Add getdeploymentinfo RPC by ajtowns · Pull Request #23508 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:06 < jeremyrubin> hi!
11:06 < laanwj> MarcoFalke _aj_: added
11:06 < laanwj> jonatack: good to know, will take a look
11:07 < jonatack> I've tried to diff-review #22702 after ACKing it a few months ago, but it requires a fresh re-review. Planning to do that.
11:07 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22702 | Add allocator for node based containers by martinus · Pull Request #22702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:08 < jonatack> laanwj: thanks
11:08 < jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic release processes / feature freezes / best practice & optionality w.r.t. BIP-119 for non-deployment code
11:08 < laanwj> it's a pretty tough PR to review, but would be good to have more eyes on it
11:09 < MarcoFalke> Maybe we should be holding back on risky stuff until after the branch off?
11:09 < jonatack> yes, agree, i need to go through it fully again
11:10 < laanwj> MarcoFalke: which one do you consider especially risky?
11:10 < MarcoFalke> The allocator stuff?
11:10 < MarcoFalke> (Not a expert on that, maybe it is not risky at all)
11:10 < jonatack> true
11:11 < laanwj> yes, ok, agree it's better to merge that at the beginning of a merge window instead of the end, but don't think it's done reviewing yet anyhow
11:11 < _aj_> we're ~four weeks from freeze, ~six weeks from branching?
11:12 < jeremyrubin> feb 15 feature freeze
11:12 < laanwj> _aj_: yep
11:12 < MarcoFalke> two weeks from translation soft freeze
11:13 < laanwj> #topic Release processes / feature freezes / etc (jeremyrubin)
11:13 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Release processes / feature freezes / etc (jeremyrubin)
11:13 < jeremyrubin> ok so for #21702
11:13 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:14 < jeremyrubin> i'm curious to know if there is a loss of "optionality" given usual precedent of merging non-activated code in a prior maj release that would motivate merging -- while still being reviewed / discussed for activation -- the CTV code
11:14 < jeremyrubin> if there is no loss of optionality in terms of normal release practices, it doesn't matter much
11:15 < jeremyrubin> (this was a discussion topic output from Tuesday's meeting)
11:15 < jeremyrubin> One of the considerations for doing it is e.g. the ease of backporting the feature to the last major version, for example.
11:15 < michaelfolkson> To state the obvious for observers there are many premature activation concerns on BIP 119 https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/352a503f4f9fc5de89af528d86a1b718
11:16 < provoostenator> I'm not sure about optionality,  but increasing complexity of consensus code - even in code paths that aren't hit - always carries some risk.
11:16 < michaelfolkson> I know Jeremy will keep his head in the sand regardless but for the sake of observers
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11:17 < provoostenator> The patch is probably already as short as it gets, but you can always try to split of more stuff into seperate PR's if they have dual use.
11:18 < provoostenator> But after that I think rebase-purgatory is the place to be until there's broad consensus that people want this soft fork.
11:19 < jeremyrubin> provoostenator i think that's reasonable, I just want to ensure that "code wasn't in 0.2x" to contribute to a 6mo-1yr delay on a possible release timeline once that does exist, however it is to be measured (optionality)
11:20 < _aj_> backporting a small patch to older versions seems plausible for CTV compared to taproot or segwit too
11:20 < provoostenator> Backporting isn't necessarily easier; if you get some code in now and then have to dramatically change it later, including in backports, life isn't much easier.
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11:21 < provoostenator> You could even maintain a patch with test on earlier branch to demonstrate that it's indeed not a problem.
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11:23 < jeremyrubin> provoostenator that does seem doable I guess? once e.g. the split off happens I could rebase once onto the 0.23 and freeze that even if other branch needs updates
11:23 < provoostenator> I also tend to agree with your point above (before the meeting) that many changes you need for mempool and wallet handling are useful in general.
11:24 < provoostenator> jeremyrubin: at first glance that seems doable, but maybe a waste of time if nobody actually has that concern.
11:25 < provoostenator> And demonstrating CSV in a working and user friendly Core wallet might help increase excitement / decrease worries.
11:25 < jeremyrubin> i think the main negative impact (outside of bug/complexity) would be prematurely impacting the PrecomputedData code path, if it were merged now. It's not a huge overhead though, but it is something.
11:25 < provoostenator> * CTV
11:26 < jeremyrubin> One of the benefits of merging would be having a signet client with CTV validation
11:26 < jeremyrubin> that would aid testing 
11:26 < provoostenator> I think Signet users can be expected to know how to compile though.
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11:26 < jeremyrubin> fair
11:27 < provoostenator> That would be a good use case for maintaining a release branch
11:27 < provoostenator> So people can test with stable release + patch, rather than master + patch.
11:27 < jeremyrubin> are any maintainers able to weigh in on what advocates of CTV should be doing/aiming for? your input is valauble here too 
11:28 < jeremyrubin> if you don't want to talk about CTV in particular, can talk generally about what OP_FOOBAR should do in the future
11:28 < achow101> I agree with provoostenator
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11:29 < jeremyrubin> what do we think about doing what provoostenator but actually doing a release build of 23.0+experimental? So then people can just grab a binary
11:29 < provoostenator> jeremyrubin: you can just do that
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11:30 < provoostenator> Should be -  if it isn't yet - a matter of maintaining a fork branch and some Guix tweaks
11:30 < jeremyrubin> sure, happy to. but if i'm the only signer i'd not advise people to run it 
11:30 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: (i'd consider running out-of-tree code to mine ctv blocks on the real signet, though that would also mean figuring out how to make txs propogate, but there's a bunch of higher priority things on my todo list)
11:30 < provoostenator> So it'll even be reproducable
11:31 < jeremyrubin> _aj_: yeah, this is why when i looked into "can't i just make the signer on signet run the new code" it wasn't a workable option
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11:31 < provoostenator> I think it warrants a fresh signet,.
11:32 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: (eh, i've tried code in the past to combine p2p service bits with consensus versionbits so nodes running a new fork can talk to each other; it's just work)
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11:34 < jeremyrubin> _aj_: i'd be a bit out of my depth working on that and i don't want to impose on your time to do that; a new signet seems the simplest to make it happen. would be nice if could be done from the latest release without downloading a new thing, but that burden shouldn't be too large...
11:35 < provoostenator> Custom signet would also let you massively constrain block space there, which could be handy for testing.
11:35 < provoostenator> jeremyrubin: afaik you can point bitcoin.conf to arbirary signets
11:36 < _aj_> jeremyrubin: anyone trying to use a new consensus feature needs to be able to build their own wallet etc anyway, compiling their own bitcoind should be the least of their worries
11:36 < _aj_> provoostenator: (not if bitcoind doesn't support the opcode you're trying to test -- it won't be accepted into the mempool)
11:36 < jeremyrubin> _aj_: you can use sapio studio somewhat off the shelf right now
11:36 < jeremyrubin> but i guess that counts as "build" your own, less so "implement" your own
11:36 < provoostenator> _aj_: I'm assuming the signet is used with the custom branch or custom binary.
11:37 < _aj_> provoostenator: if it's a custom branch, you could add a new -chain=ctvsignet option i suppose
11:37 < provoostenator> But the patch itself won't be more complicated for using the custom signet.
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11:41 < laanwj> any other topics?
11:43 < laanwj> #endmeeting
11:43 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
11:43 < core-meetingbot`> Meeting ended Thu Jan 13 19:43:06 2022 UTC.  
11:43 < core-meetingbot`> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-01-13-19.00.moin.txt
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12:01 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: maybe we need to focus more on encouraging people to sign more than Core mainline releases
12:02 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I'm still not 100% setup for Guix yet, but I will try to sign yours if you remind me
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12:04 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: thanks. i am somewhat ambivalent about signed releases in the first place which is why i've not done it previously. but i dont think theres a better alternative presently :/
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12:04 < jeremyrubin> "everyone should compile bitcoin by hand"
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12:07 < luke-jr> certainly better than non-reproducible binaries :p
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12:34 < michaelfolkson> luke-jr: It depends what you think that signature represents. I'm curious actually. Let's say Jeremy releases a fork of Core with OP_CTV in it in an attempt to get it activated (I wouldn't recommend it but say he did)
12:35 < michaelfolkson> Would you want to review the code before signing? Would you want to agree with the consensus change? Would you want to agree that the consensus change had community consensus?
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12:36 < michaelfolkson> It sounds like from the above you're willing to sign only on the condition that Jeremy signs yours and nothing else
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12:38 < michaelfolkson> I guess it could be a bit web of trust-y. I know this came from Jeremy hence I'm willing to sign it
12:38 < michaelfolkson> (assuming you trust him of course)
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12:40 < sipa> the guix attestations mean "this source code corresponds to this binary", and if it's for a named release "i agree that this indeed the released source code under that name"
12:40 < sipa> nothing more
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12:44 < michaelfolkson> sipa: Like cryptographically?! Or is that just implicitly understood?
12:44 < michaelfolkson> I guess I should look it up
12:44 < sipa> That's what attestations are. They attest that the software was correctly built.
12:45 < sipa> It would be very strange that it would mean "people should run X!" if there wasn't some sort of message signed that states that.
12:46 < michaelfolkson> But are you literally signing a statement like "this source code corresponds to this binary" or can you only sign if you've compiled and so its implicit?
12:46 < sipa> I don't understand your question.
12:47 < jeremyrubin> GUIX tooling can largely be automated to sign releases. Not a good assumption the code has actually been reviewed
12:47 < sipa> The attestation is a signature on a file that contains the hashes of the produced binaries, the source code tarball, and the file name.
12:47 < jeremyrubin> It might be good to layer a signature that says "this code is safe" or "I am running this personally, at least".
12:47 < sipa> It does not sign "I reviewed this code", or "I think people should run this code", or "This software will solve world hunger". If you want that, you can do that, but that's not what the attestations are about.
12:48 < michaelfolkson> Does it need to be generally understood (with communicated words) what that GUIX attestation represents? It sounds like yes it does
12:49 < michaelfolkson> I guess the only alternative would be a zero knowledge-y thing where you can literally only sign if you've generated same binary
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12:51 < sipa> That still doesn't prevent people from misinterpreting it as something else.
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12:53 < michaelfolkson> I guess but you'd point to the zero knowledge-y process that you followed in this speculative world where such a thing was possible
12:54 < sipa> I can also link to the GUIX process now.
12:54 < sipa> Doesn't mean people will read it or understand its implications.
12:57 < michaelfolkson> I guess. The more that is embedded in that signature it seems the better to me. And a process where it was only possible to sign through a ZK process would be even better
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12:57 < sipa> Nor does the process prevent people running it from attaching additional semantics to it (e.g. they might only do guix builds for code they think is safe to run, implicitly attaching a meaning of vouching for it).
12:57 < michaelfolkson> Other than just needing to verbally say "Here is a link to the GUIX process I followed"
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12:58 < michaelfolkson> But ok, thanks!
12:58 < sipa> Whether that meaning is conveyed is purely a social issue.
12:58 < michaelfolkson> It could be embedded in the signature, that was my point
12:58 < michaelfolkson> So it becomes more of a math issue than a social issue
12:59 < sipa> I think you misunderstand what a ZK system can accomplish. If I copy your compiled binary and sign it, I achieve the same thing.
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12:59 < sipa> Even if I didn't compile it myself.
12:59 < sipa> ZK systems protect secret data. There is nothing secret here.
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13:10 < lukedashjr> michaelfolkson: cryptography has no meaning at all, except what people understand it to mean
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13:11 < luke-jr> michaelfolkson: my Guix signatures explicitly clarify that I am using binary "substitutes" too
13:12 < luke-jr> and while I would certainly appreciate more builds of my releases, Jeremy included, I didn't include it as a condition of my doing so for his
13:14 < jeremyrubin> actually you can do some interesting things if you randomly sample data from a GUIX build on a challenge generated by the hash of your signing key and the files you're compiling, you could "prove" that you at least had access to a transcript of the build maybe... however, auditing that would require someone else to compile it and check the
13:14 < jeremyrubin> transcript over.
13:15 < sipa> Yeah. And also, only meaningful if you're sure nobody else shared their build transcripts.
13:16 < jeremyrubin> luke-jr: i would be more willing to do GUIX builds if I felt it were more clearly communicated that it just meant "I have a computer that ran this"
13:16 < jeremyrubin> maybe i can mitigate that by doing multiple guix builds and having a key-per-machine
13:16 < jeremyrubin> so it's clear the signature is jeremyrubin-build-machine-1, and not jeremyrubin
13:17 < sipa> I don't think that adds anything. The trust is derived from the person administering the machine.
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13:19 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I mean, you can always use --sig-notation to add arbitrary disclaimers and such too
13:19 < jeremyrubin> sipa: i think it does? sure trust is from the administration of the machine, but if i can tell people how i set up jeremyrubin-machine-1 and maintain it, it makes more clear what they're trusting me for
13:21 < jeremyrubin> e.g., if i wanted to mitigate supply chain issues i might compile it on 5 different machines for myself *anyways*
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13:22 < jeremyrubin> provoostenator sipa achow101: i posted my 'transaction lifetime' post btw, thanks for the feedback earlier 
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13:23 < jeremyrubin> if you would like i can open GH issues for those topics separately for at least core to DTRT
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14:25 < michaelfolkson> [21:10:24]  <lukedashjr> michaelfolkson: cryptography has no meaning at all, except what people understand it to mean
14:26 < michaelfolkson> No meaning at all is a bit strong. At the very least you are proving you own a private key. And if you sign a statement with a private key only you own you are indicating you support that statement
14:27 < sipa> I think what luke means is that the interpretation of that statement is up to humans, in this context.
14:27 < michaelfolkson> Right, ok
14:27 < sipa> It's a bit strong to generalize to all cryptography. In particularly, encryption doesn't generally suffer from such interpretation issues.
14:28 < sipa> Though I guess you can come up with scenarios where receiving a message that contains a certain decryption has a certain humam meaning too.
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15:02 < jeremyrubin> sipa: actually encyrption in particular does suffer from this, since in order to be a secure encryption all ciphertexts must be equally likely :p
15:02 < jeremyrubin> so the ciphertext must be completely meaningless :p
15:04 < sipa> That's not true. All that is required is that the attacker cannot learn anything that they do not already know, from the ciphertext, if they don't know the key
15:05 < sipa> Oh, the ciphertext!
15:06 < sipa> Well, that's still not true, because it only needs to hold for an attacker that does not have the key.
15:07 < sipa> And unless you're working with information theoretical security, the criterion isn't that all ciphertexts should be equally likely. Only that a computationally bounded attacker cannot distinguish it from random.
15:07 < jeremyrubin> equally likely up to a negligible based on your computational bound ;)
15:08 < jeremyrubin> but that is the textbook definition iirc.
15:09 < jeremyrubin> but you can't even know that you have 'the key'. e.g., there could be encryptions where you can make different keys decrypt to two different valid (containing a hash commit?) messages
15:10 < jeremyrubin> enc(k1, k2, m1, m2) = c s.t. dec(k1, c) = m1, dec(k2, c) = m2. (perhaps you could prove that's not possible, but it certainly seems something you could describe)
15:10 < jeremyrubin> 'deniable encryption'
15:10 < sipa> I don't think even that holds. In particular, for long messages with some mode AES256, if there are only two possible plaintexts, there are only 2^256 (keys) * 2^256 (IVs) * 2 (plaintexts) possible ciphertexts, but the ciphertext may be much longer than 513 bits.
15:11 < jeremyrubin> you're saying there exists an encryption where this property doesn't hold
15:11 < jeremyrubin> which is not a valid counter to
15:11 < sipa> But that can still be semantically secure.
15:11 < jeremyrubin> there may exist an encryption where this is possible
15:11 < jeremyrubin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_encryption
15:12 < sipa> I'm saying this example would still be considered secure, because the distribution is computationally indistinguishable from uniform, despite being very much nonuniform.
15:12 < jeremyrubin> in any case we're at a hugh level of pedantism for #bitcoin-core-dev, we could chat on wizards about it more
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17:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theStack opened pull request #24062: refactor: replace RecursiveMutex `cs_most_recent_block` with Mutex (and rename) (master...202201-refactor_replace_recursive_mutex_cs_last_block) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24062
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19:54 < fanquake> Have blocked LemonadeDrip
19:56 < sipa> When life gives you lemonade, make lemons.
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19:58 < luke-jr> o.o
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21:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24065: build: explicitly disable support for external signing on Windows & OpenBSD (master...no_external_signer_win_openbsd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24065
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 14 00:00:29 2022