--- Log opened Thu Feb 10 00:00:55 2022
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00:18 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24308: util: use stronger-guarantee rename method (master...20435_rebased) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24308
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01:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/243a9c39250d...a7e80449c081
01:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5cd15ff Sebastian Falbesoner: random: use arc4random on OpenBSD
01:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0c49e52 Sebastian Falbesoner: build: remove unneeded getentropy detection (HAVE_GETENTROPY)
01:01 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a7e8044 laanwj: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24238: random: use arc4random on OpenBSD
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01:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #24238: random: use arc4random on OpenBSD (master...202202-random-use_arc4random_on_OpenBSD) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24238
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01:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24309: test: test that OP_1-OP_16 (but not lower/higher) start witness programs (master...cherrypick_test_13062) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24309
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01:20 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #20435: util: use stronger-guarantee rename method (master...rename) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20435
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02:54 < fanquake> Looks like our ARM CI is failing for most jobs
02:57 < hebasto> fanquake: AWS issue?
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03:04 < michaelfolkson> More spam (Sagor2214) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24152#discussion_r803506080
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03:17 < michaelfolkson> Thanks
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04:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow opened pull request #24310: docs / fixups from RBF and packages (master...2022-02-fixups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24310
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04:09 < laanwj> i already considered blocking that one yesterday, they were doing some really strange things like concept ACKing from another repository, i thought it was a one-time test of some kind, but apparently it continues
04:09 < laanwj> either people are confused how to use github or it's something more insidious but i don't get it
04:12 < laanwj> something like, do longer-term github accounts that have some comment/repository history (at first glance) bring money to sell
04:12 < fanquake> yes I blocked them a little while ago
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05:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #24311: build: Fix Guix build for Windows (master...220210-guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24311
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07:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #24311: build: Fix Guix build for Windows (master...220210-guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24311
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07:58 < michaelfolkson> More spam :) taveechaimekwan https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24147#discussion_r803810543
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08:05 < michaelfolkson> Need Hashcash on GitHub
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08:08 < laanwj> also blocked
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08:09 < prayank> I can write a banning algorithm that uses github API. It will only ban bad people because computers are always right.
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08:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #24312:  addrman: Log negative lowest_compatible (master...2202-logNeg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24312
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08:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #24313: Improve display address handling for external signer (master...2022/02/displayaddress) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24313
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08:26 < michaelfolkson> prayank: Some proof of work would be nice. I don't think any of us want to discourage new contributors or opposing viewpoints but maintainers spending their time blocking spam doesn't seem like the best use of their time
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08:30 < prayank> michaelfolkson: It was sarcasm for some privacy wallets writing non sense that affect privacy of Bitcoin in general but nobody wants to talk about it. I understand your point and no disagreement.
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10:23 < MarcoFalke> #proposedmeetingtopic Discontinue release notes wiki
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10:30 < prayank> #proposedmeetingtopic what are the issues with payjoin not available in bitcoin core? Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/soesbt/will_payjoin_bip78_catch_on/
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10:32 < prayank> Sorry forgot the issue created by pastapastapasta: #19148
10:32 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19148 | Implement PayJoin / Pay-to-EndPoint · Issue #19148 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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10:38 < michaelfolkson> prayank: I think that's a wallet meeting topic
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10:48 < prayank> #proposedwalletmeetingtopic what are the issues with payjoin not available in bitcoin core? Context: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/soesbt/will_payjoin_bip78_catch_on/
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10:59 < laanwj> i also think it's not useful to discuss features if you're not planning to implement them
11:00 < provoostenator> Indeed, the wallet has a 100 person-year backlog already.
11:00 < MarcoFalke> The general answer to "Why is X not available in open source is: Because no one has implemented X"
11:00 -!- sipsorcery [~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6180:500::12b] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
11:00 < laanwj> exactly
11:01 < laanwj> #startmeeting
11:01 < core-meetingbot`> Meeting started Thu Feb 10 19:01:06 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
11:01 < core-meetingbot`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
11:01 < MarcoFalke> It's not always the answer, though. It could also be "because no one has reviewed X"
11:01 < laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
11:01 < laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
11:01 < achow101> hi
11:01 < MarcoFalke> hi
11:01 < b10c> hi
11:01 < larryruane> hi
11:01 < cfields> hi
11:01 < dongcarl> hi
11:01 < laanwj> sure, if there is an implementation the question could be 'why is it not being merged'
11:01 < fjahr> hi
11:01 < hebasto> hi
11:01 < fanquake> hi
11:02 < michaelfolkson> hi
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11:02 < laanwj> two proposed meeting topics then: libbitcoinkernel initial discussion + Q&MaybeA (dongcarl), Discontinue release notes wiki (MarcoFalke)
11:02 < laanwj> any last minute ones?
11:03 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> hi
11:03 < laanwj> the feature freeze is in 5 days, so i think instead of high priority for review, it might be more useful to review what has the 0.23 milestone and is a feature
11:04 < laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/milestone/52
11:04 < jonatack> hi
11:04 < laanwj> e.g. #24115
11:04 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24115 | ARMv8 SHA2 Intrinsics by prusnak · Pull Request #24115 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:05 < laanwj> and #24187
11:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24187 | Followups for getdeploymentinfo by ajtowns · Pull Request #24187 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:05 < laanwj> i'm not sure about #19602 last minute to be honest
11:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19602 | wallet: Migrate legacy wallets to descriptor wallets by achow101 · Pull Request #19602 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:05 < MarcoFalke> Yeah, could remove that
11:05 < laanwj> might be better to (if it is ready) merge it early in 24.0 merge window
11:05 < MarcoFalke> Maybe was a bit too optimistic back when I tagged it
11:06 < achow101> It would be a bit last minute to merge that
11:06 < laanwj> yes, bumped it
11:06 < achow101> unfortunately it has not gotten much review
11:06 < MarcoFalke> Don't think it had any in-depth review at all yet?
11:07 < laanwj> it's one that needs a lot of review and testing, with different wallets
11:08 < laanwj> at least it adds a RPC to do the migration manually; it doesn't do it automatically, now that would be risky
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11:08 < laanwj> #15774 doesn't seem realistic for 23.0?
11:08 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15774 | macOS App Notarization · Issue #15774 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:09 < laanwj> don't actually know what it's involved, would it need a PR?
11:09 < MarcoFalke> fanquake promised somewhere that it will be fixed for 23.0 ;)
11:09 < laanwj> ok
11:09 < laanwj> will ask him personally then
11:09 < MarcoFalke> fanquake: ^ 
11:10 < MarcoFalke> He might be present
11:10 < fanquake> it will be fixed
11:10 < laanwj> i don't think we have any other features tagged 23.0?
11:10 < laanwj> fanquake: awesome!
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11:11 < laanwj> is there anything not tagged that might be realistic to make the feature freeze?
11:12 < jonatack> not a feature so apologies if irrelevant, but #20196 seems to be a bugfix that has been around since Oct 2020, has seen quite a bit of review, and had acks by sipa and myself
11:12 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20196 | net: fix GetListenPort() to derive the proper port by vasild · Pull Request #20196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:12 < jonatack> (needs rebase though)
11:13 < laanwj> ok tagged
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11:14 < hebasto> in gui repo only a bugfix is tagged for 23.0
11:14 < laanwj> hebasto: thanks for checking
11:15 < laanwj> ok, that concludes this topic i guess, feel free to ping me outside the meeting if any feature is ready for merge before the feature freeze
11:16 < laanwj> #topic libbitcoinkernel initial discussion + Q&MaybeA (dongcarl)
11:16 < core-meetingbot`> topic: libbitcoinkernel initial discussion + Q&MaybeA (dongcarl)
11:16 < dongcarl> Hi all, I’ve been working libbitcoinkernel: on a plan to extract our consensus engine. I’ve written enough code to see that it can work, and I’d like to share it with you all!
11:16 < dongcarl> Here is the umbrella issue: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24303

11:16 < dongcarl> Here is the first PR: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24304
11:16 < laanwj> woohoo!!!
11:16 < provoostenator> Cool!
11:16 < dongcarl> I’ve written up quite a lot between the issue and the PR description and the commit messages, and I’m happy to answer questions and discuss! (Sorry jeremyrubin I just saw your response from yesterday, will reply)
11:16 < jonatack> nice
11:16 < dongcarl> :D
11:17 < laanwj> glad to hear you're making progress there
11:17 < laanwj> #24303 #24304
11:17 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24303 | The `libbitcoinkernel` Project · Issue #24303 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:17 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24304 | [kernel 0/n] Introduce `bitcoin-chainstate` and `libbitcoinkernel` by dongcarl · Pull Request #24304 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:18 < laanwj> and that your conclusion was that it can actually work, not unimportant
11:18 < dongcarl> Yeah I think I had to do some exploring at first, but I think the MVP (stage 1) turned out to be less work than I thought!
11:19 < laanwj> great! we've come a long way with modularization and untangling things that should help
11:19 < dongcarl> I think there will be some idiosyncrasies in how the API/library works, but I think it is a big win to get the decoupling work done, and we can make the library/API ergonomic at any time
11:20 < laanwj> absolutely
11:20 < dongcarl> One key insight here is that after we decouple, any re-coupling results in a linker/compiler failure
11:20 < dongcarl> So it's good to get the decoupling through first, since that's a big win
11:20 < michaelfolkson> Why was a new approach required from libbitcoinconsensus? Or is this building on top of the work done in libbitcoinconsensus?
11:21 < michaelfolkson> I know you say "it is a stateful library that can spawn threads, do caching, do I/O, and many other things which one may not normally expect from a library." Sounds like libbitcoinconsensus couldn't do that
11:21 < laanwj> basically because it's stateful
11:21 < laanwj> yes
11:21 < dongcarl> michaelfolkson: libbitcoinconsensus also only does scipt verification last time I checked
11:21 < dongcarl> No block or UTXO management logic
11:22 < jonatack> Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/f9a8a6e88e0ed1c63f927346339b640f/pasted.txt
11:22 < cfields> +100 for libbitcoinconsensus. I've been hacking on carl's branches a bit, and some single-use tools quickly emerged. It's VERY cool.
11:22 < jonatack> michaelfolkson: if I may, just posted a file with notes I took on this
11:22 < cfields> er, libbitcoinkernel. sorry :)
11:23 < michaelfolkson> So libbitcoinconsensus was like a first attempt and this is now a second attempt learning lessons from libbitcoinconsensus?
11:23 < michaelfolkson> jonatack: Thanks!
11:23 < dongcarl> Hehe yeah cfields built a cool bitcoin-reindex tool with it!
11:24 < cfields> michaelfolkson: bitcoinconsensus was very limited and not all that useful with what it can do realistically. libbitcoinkernel is more like a minimized version of a core node impl with no useful interfaces baked in.
11:24 < jonatack> michaelfolkson: (those were comments on IRC here by laanwj)
11:24 < michaelfolkson> Ok cool
11:24 < dongcarl> :-)
11:25 < dongcarl> BTW, I'm actively looking for people to take on Stage 2 as mentioned here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24303
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11:25 < dongcarl> If anyone thinks they're even remotely suited to the task, lmk!
11:26 < provoostenator> dongcarl: how does this jibe with ryanofsky's multiprocess stuff?
11:26 < laanwj> maybe someone can do a rust binding :-)
11:26 < provoostenator> I guess this just takes a chunck out of what was already contained in the node?
11:27 < laanwj> multiprocess is about running multiple processes, this is about splitting the code, it's related but not the same
11:27 < provoostenator> Right, but if both involve splitting code
11:28 < provoostenator> E.g. we got rid of all these globals and now have interfaces.
11:28 < dongcarl> Right, I think in practice libbitcoinkernel will probably be a subset of bitcoin-node (is that the right binary?), as in bitcoin-node can link against libbitcoinkernel (not proposing that we do this yet)
11:28 < laanwj> it could help multiprocess
11:28 < larryruane> would libbitcoinkernel be a separate repo?
11:28 < laanwj> larryruane: n-no plans like that for the forseaable future
11:28 < MarcoFalke> I'd say it shouldn't affect multiprocess, as libbitcoinkernel will be wrapped in the "Node" (from the view of multiprocess interfaces)
11:29 < dongcarl> Yeah right now I have a src/kernel/ directory where I keep libbitcoinkernel specific stuff. No plans yet of repo separation
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11:30 < dongcarl> Great questions btw :-)
11:31 < MarcoFalke> so validation.cpp would eventually move to src/kernel/validation.cpp ?
11:31 < laanwj> the actual validation parts, i suppose
11:32 < dongcarl> Exactly right. The parts of src/validation.cpp that we absolutely require for the consensus engine would be moved to src/kernel/validation.cpp
11:32 < dongcarl> The rest can stay in src/validation.cpp
11:32 < lightlike> isn't it more the other way round, that the index rework of #24230 helps for this project too? If the indexes could run as their own process, doesnt this mean that they are also out of libbitcoinkernel?
11:32 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24230 | indexes: Stop using node internal types and locking cs_main, improve sync logic by ryanofsky · Pull Request #24230 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:32 < laanwj> or renamed to something else if there's a better match for the remaining functionality
11:34 < cfields> I think it's useful to look at the file list to get an idea of how carl's working: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24304/files#diff-4cb884d03ebb901069e4ee5de5d02538c40dd9b39919c615d8eaa9d364bbbd77R832
11:34 < cfields> dongcarl: if I'm not mistaken, you started by globbing everything into there, then move things out piece-by-piece.
11:34 < dongcarl> lightlike: So in my "vision quest" branches, I've found that if we merge the prune blocker PR, then we can drop the blockfilterindex, and then we can rearchitect GetUTXOStats to not unconditionally depend on the coinstatsindex, then we don't have any indices in libbitcoinkernel
11:34 < laanwj> huh nice
11:35 < dongcarl> Yes! It's actually quite satisfying to see every bulk of change culminate in the removal of a .cpp file in the _SOURCES list :-)
11:36 < cfields> there are obviously some things that don't belong in that list, but are currently pulled in by something. those are basically the TODOs. util/asmap.cpp as a good example, should be moved out, but that presumably requires some refactoring first.
11:36 < laanwj> asmap seems decidedly P2P related
11:36 < cfields> right
11:37 < laanwj> it might be useful as an external library for some P2P purposes in itself, but that's a whole other topic :)
11:37 < provoostenator> p2p is not considered kernel I guess
11:37 < laanwj> right
11:38 < dongcarl> Nope P2P is not considered part of the kernel
11:38 < dongcarl> However, for stage 1, we are including the mempool
11:38 < MarcoFalke> Would it be possible to link libbitcoinkernel into bitcoind from the beginning (in #24230)?
11:38 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24230 | indexes: Stop using node internal types and locking cs_main, improve sync logic by ryanofsky · Pull Request #24230 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:38 < MarcoFalke> sorry, 24303 
11:39 < MarcoFalke> This means that the SOURCES can be removed from libbitcoin_node?
11:39 < MarcoFalke> (Maybe I should leave this as a code review comment)
11:40 < dongcarl> I explored doing that, and there's no clear hierarchy between our internal .a libs and libbitcoinkernel
11:40 < lightlike> for asmap, there is jnewbery's #22910 which, as a side-effect, might result in being able to remove the dependency 
11:40 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22910 | net: Encapsulate asmap in NetGroupManager by jnewbery · Pull Request #22910 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:40 < dongcarl> MarcoFalke: But I think that's a great idea worth exploring later on when we've decoupled more things!
11:41 < cfields> lightlike: aha, +1. sounds like that's very possible.
11:41 < dongcarl> Oh I think I had an easier fix for asmap in my branches :-)
11:42 < dongcarl> I think overall, we should also make some developer notes on how to code in a way that doesn't introduce too many dependencies/coupling
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11:42 < dongcarl> Anyway, that's probably a topic for another day
11:42 < MarcoFalke> Couldn't the hirarchy issue be solved by linking libbitcoinkernel in between every .a lib?
11:43 < laanwj> we have another (probably short) topic to go, might want to wrap up
11:43 < dongcarl> MarcoFalke: I think the brute-force way is just to add it to the top of LDADD for all binaries, but that doesn't seem "right" to me
11:44 < dongcarl> I'm all done! We can move on
11:44 < dongcarl> Thanks all
11:44 < laanwj> thank you
11:44 < laanwj> #topic Discontinue release notes wiki (MarcoFalke)
11:44 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Discontinue release notes wiki (MarcoFalke)
11:44 < provoostenator> So this bitcoin-chainstate binary won't actually do anything right?
11:44 < provoostenator> It just makes sure we don't break the build.
11:44 < MarcoFalke> Yeah, so we introduced the wiki back when no release notes were written in pull requests. They were written before a release. Obviously that approach isn't sustainable, and we switched to writing release notes when the code was written.
11:45 < MarcoFalke> So I am thinking if we still need the wiki
11:45 < laanwj> there's still organization + editing work left
11:45 < achow101> We still use the wiki for finishing up release notes during the RC process
11:45 < dongcarl> provoostenator: I'll answer after this topic
11:45 < MarcoFalke> IIRC last time there were only a few minor typo fixes and other minor edits
11:45 < laanwj> we definitely dont' want a PR for every little typo fix
11:45 < jonatack> Quite a bit of editing happens in the wiki, I did a fair amount
11:45 < MarcoFalke> My thinking is that edits will need review either way
11:46 < laanwj> yes
11:46 < provoostenator> But maybe a wiki is more suitable for just letting people change things, check the history, and revert if needed?
11:46 < laanwj> but that's possible to do post-hoc for documentation
11:46 < laanwj> i do think a wiki is a better fit in general for documents than PRs
11:46 < laanwj> yes
11:47 < jonatack> Some was rewriting/fixups, and some was moving similar notes together / reorganizing IIRC
11:47 < laanwj> also the wiki can only be edited by organization members, so we don't really have to be afraid of vandalism
11:47 < prayank> laanwj: agree and had shared this a few months back 
11:48 < prayank> agree with: i do think a wiki is a better fit in general for documents than PRs
11:48 < laanwj> in any case i don't see a strong reason to move away from the wiki approach, at least for major releases
11:48 < MarcoFalke> ok
11:48 < laanwj> so it's not so much about writing the release notes (though some need to be written) but more about combining, ordering, and the final touches
11:49 < laanwj> it's really inconvenient to do that cooperatively in PRs
11:49 < MarcoFalke> Ideally, we'd do all of that over the year and not last minute
11:50 < laanwj> some stuff always needs to be done last minute
11:50 < laanwj> but yes, doing more in sync with the code is of course better
11:50 < prayank> engineers
11:51 < MarcoFalke> At least I've been trying to do that (#24068, ...)
11:51 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24068 | doc: Rework 14707 release notes by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #24068 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:51 < laanwj> good!
11:52 < laanwj> any other topics?
11:54 < jonatack> Subjecting release note edits to the review process seems daunting (to me :D)
11:54 < michaelfolkson> +1
11:55 < laanwj> i mean what could work is to have a separate repo with higher throughput than the usualy review process, and doesn't mind the noise, but that's effectively a wiki then 
11:55 < MarcoFalke> It doesn't need to be a separate repo. If someone fixes a typo in the release notes, the pull can be merged by the first maintainer that sees it
11:56 < laanwj> also: i can't stress this enough please don't write too many release notes, it's not documentation, only a list of changes, it can refer to the actual documentation
11:56 < laanwj> i don't like how much spam that implies
11:56 < MarcoFalke> It is not like we need 37 ACKs and wait a week to fix a typo
11:56 < laanwj> i really dislike PRs that just fix a typo
11:56 < MarcoFalke> ok, that's a good point
11:56 < laanwj> definitely not going to merge them faster :)
11:57 < MarcoFalke> I am mostly worried about a last-minute rewrite of the release notes in the wiki (that introduce errors), but no one notices until after release
11:57 < laanwj> well, watch the changes then
11:57 < MarcoFalke> I mean "last-minute"
11:57 < laanwj> i'm not particularly afraid of that tbh
11:58 < MarcoFalke> ok
11:58 < MarcoFalke> Heh, let's end the meeting
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11:58 < laanwj> people in the org don't usually do stupid stuff, but sure, it's good to pay attention, especially before merging them back to the branch
11:58 < warren> Would it be harmful to point at a webpage for the latest release notes instead of being part of the distribution?
11:59 < laanwj> i think having them (eventually) part of the distribution is fine
11:59 < provoostenator> And having the full archive of release notes in the source code is useful too.
11:59 < laanwj> webpages tend to disappear etc
12:01 < laanwj> i mean who knows we'll lose the lawsuit and bitcoincore.org disappears :p just kidding i guess but good to keep things self-contained
12:01 < laanwj> #endmeeting
12:01 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
12:01 < core-meetingbot`> Meeting ended Thu Feb 10 20:01:42 2022 UTC.  
12:01 < core-meetingbot`> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-02-10-19.01.moin.txt
12:01 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> If no one else has anything, I was in chaincode recently, and signature aggregation got brought up for optimizing a block. I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate. I assume this would be to speed up transaction validation. Does it allow more data to be packed into a block?
12:02 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> It was in relation to taproot
12:02 < dongcarl> provoostenator: bitcoin-chainstate does do something! It will print out information about a datadir and wait for new blocks (encoded in hex) to process on stdin. I found it pretty cool to start it and start feeding it block 1, 2, 3, and see it work :-)
12:02 < dongcarl> provoostenator: E.g. ./src/bitcoin-chainstate ./test-datadir (This is a draft PR please don’t use it on your actual datadir). 
12:02 < provoostenator> dongcarl:  ah that's very cool, I might play with that
12:03 < laanwj> fwiw for RCs i do link to the wiki for the preliminary release notes, for -final it gets merged back into the branch, after that the wiki is emptied and changed to a link to the release notes on the master
12:04 < prayank> Responding to the things I checked later when meeting was going and they were shared just before meeting:
12:04 < prayank> laanwj: I can review. I dont think Its always the case that person who implements would want to discuss it in the meeting (open source). One example was: UTXO locks saved in db. provoostenator: With this logic it would be impossible to discuss anything in wallet meeting (backlog). MarcoFalke: I think I had this idea already so suggested someone to create a bounty for it in the reddit thread shared but not sure about real issues
12:04 < prayank> . There are lot of things that you assume, create a pr and one of the maintainers comment: this has xyz problem so always better to discuss before wasting your own time or requesting others to confirm in meeting.
12:05 < laanwj> prayank: if you simply have questions, you can ask any time, either on github (apparently a issue already exists), no need to reserve time for it in the meeting
12:06 < laanwj> (or here, but for longer ongoing discussion github is better)
12:06 < prayank> laanwj: this is not a simple question and already has a github issue with no activity
12:06 < MarcoFalke> prayank: Yeah, that means that maybe no one has looked at the BIP in-depth yet?
12:07 < prayank> Maybe
12:07 < laanwj> if there's no activity there's probably no developer interest
12:07 < michaelfolkson> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: Perhaps #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews is better channel for these types of general questions. But with Schnorr we can do key aggregation schemes (e.g. MuSig2) but not signature aggregation across say inputs
12:08 < michaelfolkson> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/106163/what-is-the-difference-between-key-aggregation-and-signature-aggregation
12:08 < prayank> laanwj: I have followed your comments since last few years and you are one of the devs who is always for-privacy and even in coin control disccusions i could see it. Why do you think it never made it to core?
12:09 < provoostenator> prayank: a good place to start is probably to write a Python script that implements PayJoin using RPC calls.
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12:10 < belcher> payjoin requires a http server with ssl, is that appropriate for core? maybe im biased since i dont use core's gui myself, only bitcoind
12:11 < laanwj> no one with expertise in bitcoin privacy methods works on bitcoin core, they all decided to make their own projects
12:11 < belcher> payjoin is already implemented in btcpayserver, but from what i see its not very common for merchants to turn it on
12:11 < prayank> provoostenator: that looks like discussing solutions. thanks. I will try it.
12:11 < provoostenator> prayank: it could be a dead end, but it could also evolve to become it's own project
12:11 < provoostenator> Proojects like Specter and Wasabi now end up using Bitcoin Core in the background.
12:11 < belcher> i agree with provoostenator's suggestion, it shouldnt be too hard as python already has a bunch of libs for http servers/ssl
12:11 < laanwj> belcher: yeah, it's hard to do within bitcoin core's architecture, it's very much a stand-alone wallet, fitting in any kind of coordination between wallets is going to be very difficult
12:12 < belcher> the way joinmarket does it (it can receive as well as send payjoins) is by using tor's control port to create a one time hidden service that the other side can connect to to coordinate the payjoin
12:12 < provoostenator> And I and others are _very_ slowly trying to chip away at some of Specter's magic to get multisig hardware wallet support directly in Core :-)
12:12 < prayank> belcher: is it possible without sever? using ln or someting like nostr?
12:13 < provoostenator> A server is trivial to build in Python. Not necessarily a secure one, but good enough for proof-of-concept and demos. 
12:13 < belcher> prayank bip78 says it uses http
12:13 < belcher> note that in python you can just do "import http.server" or whatever the lib is, its easy
12:13 < prayank> provoostenator: Wasabi has no background with core to use it and its non sense if they dont allow coin control in ww2
12:14 < provoostenator> prayank: https://docs.wasabiwallet.io/using-wasabi/BitcoinFullNode.html#how-does-wasabi-use-your-bitcoin-full-node
12:15 < belcher> i just realized, _sending_ to payjoin invoices is much easier to implement than receiving
12:15 < prayank> provoostenator: I work for wasabi since a few months. it can be used without full node. you can use it with full node but it does not use everything.
12:15 < belcher> i tunnel-visioned in creating a http server in python, but thats only needed for receiving, for sending you just need to make a http request
12:15 < prayank> belcher: you have good points. I need time.
12:16 < belcher> implementing sending of payjoins in electrum or other wallets is also useful i think
12:16 < prayank> and you should try nostr
12:16 < belcher> once more wallets support sending to, maybe more merchants will end up supporting receiving (they just need to enable to option in btcpayserver, no coding is needed if they use that)
12:18 < prayank> 99% nodes use core, I am sure most of them also use core wallet RPC
12:18 < prayank> so its impossible to improve privacy without core
12:19 < achow101> prayank: that's an assumption that is definitely not true (that most use core wallet's rpc)
12:19 < belcher> plenty of those nodes might use other wallets on top, such as electrum via their own server, or spectre, or samourai's dojo thing
12:19 < achow101> there are a lot of people who run nodes and use some other wallet
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12:20 < prayank> hmm maybe makes sense
12:20 < prayank> not sure
12:20 < belcher> one thing worth noting, the way equal-output coinjoins work is that multiple senders come together to protect all their privacy together... the way payjoin works is that a customer and merchant together protect both their privacy, so it only makes sense to you as a customer if you think the merchant isnt spying on you, therefore payjoin is pretty pointless to be adopted by exchanges which do kyc, i.e. theres no point begging coinbase to adopt 
12:20 < belcher> payjoin
12:21 < belcher> much more useful would be to ask places like bitcoin casinos, p2p exchanges and individual web stores to adopt payjoin
12:21 < belcher> indeed the very first payjoin BIP was written by the operator of a bitcoin casino whos customers kept getting banned because they transferred coins straight from a kyc exchange to the casino
12:30 < prayank> belcher: I am not sure why merchange and customer is used in this example it can be any peer1 and peer2 or alice-bob. If bitcoin was used for merchant and customer thing today maybe this thing was already solved.
12:30 < prayank> *merchant
12:30 < belcher> the merchant/customer relationship is used because payjoin requires a payment to be happening
12:31 < prayank> and it can be achieved with any peers looking for privacy
12:31 < belcher> only if theres some kind of payment going between those peers
12:31 < achow101> if I pay you, you are the merchant, and I am the customer. merchant/customer does not mean "big company" and "single person"
12:32 < belcher> compare that to equal-output coinjoins which generally involve different people coming together to make a transaction and not really paying each other
12:32 < michaelfolkson> Coinjoin - you get back what you put in Payjoin - funds are actually moving from individual A to B. But I think this should be on another channel
12:32 < prayank> I was a merchant in 2017 and I know merchants do not care about privacy in most of the case unless their brand is about privacy
12:34 < achow101> and that is probably why payjoin does not see almost any adoption
12:34 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> @michaelfolkson: will do
12:38 < prayank> I agree with most of the things you shared: achow101: belcher: I will quit and need a few days break to think about it how to make payjoin great again. Also thanks to everyone else who shared their feedback.
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14:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] prusnak closed pull request #24274: Introduce GetFileArg and use it where possible (master...GetFileArg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24274
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18:10 < prayank> kanzure: if you or your algo bans people because you do not like their thoughts, either leave responsibility to decide for others when you are already making so called "privacy coins" to get rich. Or allow different opinions so that we can see how people react to something.
18:10 < prayank> 1. One person had emailed me about bad ports it was not updated
18:10 < prayank> 2. My email about mempool was not updated
18:11 < prayank> If this continues we will find better solutions and this will become irrelevant 
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18:31 < kanzure> what?
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18:37 < prayank> kanzure: Asking for reasons why 1 and 2 was not updated
18:38 < prayank> might be offtopic and I have emails
18:39 < prayank> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." please follow this
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19:08 < prayank> I did not receive any answer in last few huours. pleaase do one thing: stay away from me and associated devs. I won't care. 
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19:15 < kanzure> emails don't/can't get updated once sent
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19:23 < prayank> kanzure: why is this not visible in bitcoin dev mailing list? https://i.imgur.com/BOoxVfA.png
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21:57 < achow101> prayank: the bitcoin-dev list has greylisting active. messages from new emails will be in a moderation queue and need to be manually approved before being sent to the list. messages that are not approved will appear here: https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev-moderation/ I don't see the email in question there, so it's probably just still in the queue waiting for someone to get to it
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 11 00:00:56 2022