--- Log opened Thu Mar 17 00:00:28 2022
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00:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/601bfc417d1f...bf2c0fb2a264
00:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f59bee3 Anthony Towns: fuzz: execute each file in dir without fuzz engine
00:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bf2c0fb MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24472: fuzz: execute each file in dir without fuzz e...
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00:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #24472: fuzz: execute each file in dir without fuzz engine (master...202203-phuzztesting) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24472
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00:56 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #24597: doc, guix: Include `arm64-apple-darwin` into codesigned archs (master...220317-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24597
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01:04 < Alexthek1d> Hello,
01:04 < Alexthek1d> if you download the full node with bitcoin-core and i choose an external hard drive as target for the node:
01:05 < Alexthek1d> Does bitcoin-core copy the data temporarily to the drive of the OS first (so "caching") or in memory/RAM and then to the external hdd?
01:05 < Alexthek1d> (I ask because i do not want too many write operations on my OS drive)
01:06 < sipa> It will only use the drive/directory you select.
01:08 < Alexthek1d> sipa, thank you :)
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01:36 < Alexthek1d> sipa, does it use RAM as cache?
01:37 < laanwj> please take general usage questions to #bitcoin
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01:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bf2c0fb2a264...8435d7f11a89
01:38 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1f4801b Hennadii Stepanov: doc, guix: Include arm64-apple-darwin into codesigned archs
01:38 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8435d7f fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24597: doc, guix: Include `arm64-apple-darwin` into ...
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01:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #24597: doc, guix: Include `arm64-apple-darwin` into codesigned archs (master...220317-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24597
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01:41 < Alexthek1d> laanwj, okay
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01:48 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #24593: [23.x] macOS / build backports (23.x...more_macos_backports_rc3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24593
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01:59 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] prusnak opened pull request #24598: Add *.xip to .gitignore (master...gitignore-xip) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24598
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03:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24599: guix: remove mingw-w64 std::filesystem workaround (master...remove_newlib_workaround) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24599
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04:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24600: doc: mention that BDB is for the legacy wallet in build-freebsd.md (master...freebsd_legacy_descriptor_switch) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24600
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04:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] josibake opened pull request #24601: ci: add ci/scratch dir to .gitignore (master...add-ci-scratch-gitignore) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24601
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04:40 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mzumsande opened pull request #24602: fuzz: add target for coinselection algorithms (master...202203_fuzz_coinselection) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24602
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05:08 < stickies-v> #proposedmeetingtopic important changes in 23.0 to cover in the new RC Testing Guide (see https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/22.0-Release-Candidate-Testing-Guide)
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05:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24603: macdeploy: remove unused detached-sig-apply.sh (master...unused_detached_sig_apply) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24603
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06:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24604: build: fix copypasta in OpenBSD C{XX} flags (master...openbsd_copy_pasta) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24604
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08:09 < MarcoFalke> I can't force push to github anymore
08:09 < MarcoFalke>  ! [remote rejected]       2203-designated_init-🛍 -> 2203-designated_init-🛍 (Internal Server Error)
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08:11 < stick> MarcoFalke: github outage
08:11 < stick> regular push does not work either from here
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08:12 < stick> https://www.githubstatus.com
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08:21 < MarcoFalke> tea time, I guess
08:22 < fanquake> knock off time
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08:24 < achow101> bah, can't comment either :(
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08:39 < Earnest> achow101: Will descriptor wallets ever work with sethdseed and the ability to dump the (WIF) seed?
08:39 < achow101> Earnest: no
08:40 < Earnest> That is a feature I wanted to use but it seems to be going away now, I'll have to reconsider this
08:41 < sipa> You can dump the descriptor(s), though.
08:41 < Earnest> Yeah, I noted that and the recent change to dump the tprv as well
08:41 < achow101> #23417 may allow for exporting the master private key however
08:41 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23417 | wallet, spkm: Move key management from DescriptorScriptPubKeyMan to wallet level KeyManager by achow101 · Pull Request #23417 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
08:42 < Earnest> But that's not nearly as useful as seeds, including any inactiveseeds
08:42 < achow101> but with descriptor wallets, we want to be explicit about what is being imported and watched for, rather than inferring
08:43 < Earnest> I quite like the idea of having my public/private keys being derived from a password/phrase, considerations for security withstanding
08:43 < Earnest> So that I don't have to entirely rely on the robustness of computers
08:43 < Earnest> (Much like curiosity, they rebooted it 7 times a day, just in case its state became corrupted)
08:43 < achow101> key's are not useful if you don't know what scripts, and seeds are not useful without derivation paths
08:44 < sipa> you can print a descriptor to paper or so as well
08:44 < Earnest> achow101: This is a fair point, yeah
08:44 < achow101> descriptors does not preclude containing bip39 mnemonics or other methods of deriving keys as KEY expressions
08:44 < Earnest> Oh yeah, the new wallets are much nicer in that respect
08:44 < Earnest> achow101: Yes, that's what I'm getting at
08:44 < Earnest> (Doesn't have to be necessarily seed words though)
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08:46 < Earnest> If you don't mind, thanks for answering so far, but listdescriptors on a new wallet will output 4 of them, and seems they're all the same but with different derivation paths and checksums.  As the tpub/tprv is the same for all of them, how would you import that tprv in such a way to recover them all instead of just one?
08:46 < Earnest> Hm, actually I can probably answer that myself
08:46 < sipa> you don't import tprvs; you import the whole descriptor
08:47 < Earnest> Yeah, I just remembered that heh
08:50 < Earnest> achow101: 23417 seems nice yeah
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11:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #24605: 2203 mini 🐧 (master...2203-mini-🐧) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24605
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12:00 < laanwj> #startmeeting
12:00 < core-meetingbot`> Meeting started Thu Mar 17 19:00:09 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
12:00 < core-meetingbot`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
12:00 < achow101> hi
12:00 < stickies-v> hi
12:00 < hebasto> hi
12:00 < laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
12:00 < laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
12:01 < provoostenator> hi
12:01 < cfields_> hi
12:01 < laanwj> welcome to the weekly bitcoin-core-dev general meeting
12:01 < dongcarl> hi
12:02 < laanwj> there has been one proposed topic: important changes in 23.0 to cover in the new RC Testing Guide (stickies-v)
12:02 < MarcoFalke> #proposedmeetingtopic Adjusted time offset warning
12:02 < laanwj> any last minute additional ones?
12:02 < laanwj> MarcoFalke: ok
12:03 < michaelfolkson> hi
12:03 < laanwj> #topic High priority for review
12:03 < core-meetingbot`> topic: High priority for review
12:03 < laanwj> let's start with high prio as usual
12:04 < laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  at the moment there's 8 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK
12:04 < laanwj> anything to add/remove, or that's almost ready for merge?
12:04 < laanwj> #24058 was added outside the meeting last week
12:04 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24058 | BIP-322 basic support by kallewoof · Pull Request #24058 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < MarcoFalke> #23595 for me pls
12:04 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23595 | util: Add ParseHex () helper by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #23595 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:06 < laanwj> MarcoFalke: added
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12:06 < MarcoFalke> dank
12:06 < jonatack> hi
12:06 < luke-jr> maybe add #22693 for me
12:06 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22693 | RPC/Wallet: Add "use_txids" to output of getaddressinfo by luke-jr · Pull Request #22693 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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12:07 < laanwj> luke-jr: added
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12:07 < luke-jr> ty
12:07 < jonatack> may i please add #24555 (targets backport to v23)
12:07 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24555 | doc: create initial doc/cjdns.md for CJDNS how-to documentation by jonatack · Pull Request #24555 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:08 < jeremyrubin> hi
12:08 < laanwj> jonatack: done
12:08 < jonatack> laanwj: thank you
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12:10 < laanwj> i guess that was it for high prio, let's move to next topic
12:10 < laanwj> #topic Important changes in 23.0 to cover in the new RC Testing Guide (stickies-v)
12:10 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Important changes in 23.0 to cover in the new RC Testing Guide (stickies-v)
12:10 < stickies-v> Context: I've started working on updating the 23.0 RC Testing Guide, and I'd like to get some early feedback on which changes are considered important and useful to test since we don't have too much until release date.
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12:10 < stickies-v> From the release notes (https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/23.0-Release-Notes-draft), I've selected the 5 changes I think most worthwhile to test, and 1 extra if I have time to get to it. I'd very much appreciate feedback on if you think anything else should really be included, and if maybe something can be omitted.
12:10 < stickies-v> The changes I've selected are (in random order, summarized from release notes):
12:10 < luke-jr> stickies-v: release dates are not firm; it's ready when it's ready
12:11 < stickies-v> 1. The strong preference for only connecting to peers that listen the standard port 8333 has been removed.  (#23542)
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12:11 < stickies-v> 2. Descriptor wallets are now the default wallet type. Newly created wallets will use descriptors unless descriptors=false is set during createwallet.
12:11 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23542 | net: open p2p connections to nodes that listen on non-default ports by vasild · Pull Request #23542 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:11 < stickies-v> 3. The validateaddress RPC now returns an error_locations array for invalid addresses, with the indices of invalid character locations in the address (if known). (#16807)
12:11 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16807 | Let validateaddress locate error in Bech32 address by meshcollider · Pull Request #16807 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:11 < stickies-v> 4. The getblock RPC command and /rest/block/ REST endpoint now support verbosity level 3 containing transaction inputs' prevout information. 
12:11 < stickies-v> 5. Information on soft fork status has been moved from getblockchaininfo to the new getdeploymentinfo RPC which allows querying soft fork status at any block, rather than just at the chain tip. (#23508)
12:11 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23508 | Add getdeploymentinfo RPC by ajtowns · Pull Request #23508 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:12 < laanwj> i don't think 1 is straightforward to test
12:12 < stickies-v> The additional change if I get to it in time is:
12:12 < stickies-v> 6. A bitcoind node will only rumour addresses to inbound peers after they've sent an ADDR, ADDRV2, or GETADDR message. (#21528)
12:12 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21528 | [p2p] Reduce addr blackholes by amitiuttarwar · Pull Request #21528 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:12 < laanwj> because nothing will really give you non-8333 ports frequently yet (e.g. the DNS seeds strongly prefer 8333)
12:12 < luke-jr> laanwj: well, testers can at least verify they have 8 peers that look randomish?
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12:12 < michaelfolkson> And 2 isn't new for this release. Not sure if that should be a focus?
12:13 < laanwj> sure, you can test that you still get usable peers
12:13 < hebasto> owners of Apple M1 could test native arm64 binaries
12:13 < laanwj> hebasto: yes, that's a good one
12:13 < luke-jr> and they don't get deleted :P
12:13 < hebasto> indeed
12:13 < stickies-v> hebasto: thanks I'll include that
12:14 < laanwj> stickies-v: thanks for working on this btw
12:14 < jonatack> stickies: would be nice to test bitcoind over CJDNS, including IBD with -onlynet=cjdns and dns seeds
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12:15 < stickies-v> jonatack: cool, will add that too
12:16 < jonatack> stickies-v:  great
12:16 < stickies-v> I was thinking the non-default port could be tested on regtest, since it does seem like quite an important change for the network going forward?
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12:17 < stickies-v> achow101: what do you think about michaelfolkson's comment regarding descriptor wallet becoming default not being important to include in the testing as it's not a new change?
12:18 < jonatack> stickies-v: you might be able to easily recycle the I2P testing in the last release testing, and link to doc/cjdns.md in #24555
12:18 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24555 | doc: create initial doc/cjdns.md for CJDNS how-to documentation by jonatack · Pull Request #24555 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:18 < laanwj> i don't think port preference ever plays a role on regtest, as all connections are manual
12:18 < luke-jr> were there any major changes to descriptor wallets between 21/22.x and 23.x?
12:18 < luke-jr> besides adding Taproot
12:18 < jonatack> (e.g. convert the I2P testing section for v22 to CJDNS)
12:19 < stickies-v> hmm okay didn't know that, will reconsider 1. then and leave it out if I don't find any good way to test efficiently
12:19 < achow101> stickies-v: I don't feel strongly either way. frankly, it's such a small change that there isn't much that could go wrong
12:19 < laanwj> but if you consider it like that, all functional tests test non-default ports, as they pseudo-randomly assign ports
12:20 < MarcoFalke> I think the most important testing is of the parts that everyone assumes *not* to be changed.
12:20 < luke-jr> true
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12:21 < MarcoFalke> Surely, it is important that new features are tested, but even more importantly everything else shouldn't break
12:21 < jonatack> 3, 4, and 5 may be well-tested already (if I'm not mistaken), not sure if there is much value in people checking those
12:21 < laanwj> also testing it with third-party programs is always interesting (i guess e.g. joinmarket, c-lightning are covered)
12:21 < lightlike> I think it should work to addpeeradress a couple of fantasy addresses with default/non default ports and take statistics what it tries to connect to. 
12:22 < luke-jr> new features are probably more tested already too
12:22 < MarcoFalke> Jup, any business or third party software should have a test suite to check that their use of Bitcoin Core doesn't break with an upgrade
12:22 < stickies-v> MarcoFalke: that's a good point but I'm not sure if that's something we can make actionable in this testing guide?
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12:22 < stickies-v> I think it's more of an intro get people familiar with testing and with what's changing
12:22 < laanwj> right, the testing guide is more about giving peopel specific focus what they could test, if it's just "what you are doing already" it's short
12:24 < stickies-v> alright thank you for the ideas everyone, I'll look into all of these suggestions and revert next week with a draft of the guide
12:24 < michaelfolkson> Ok makes sense. Leave it up to your judgment then stickies-v :)
12:24 < jonatack> right, the reason i mention the cjdns testing is also that there are more moving parts, platforms, cases and possible issues that may not have been seen yet
12:24 < laanwj> thanks! 
12:24 < laanwj> let's move to next topic
12:24 < laanwj> #topic Adjusted time offset warning (MarcoFalke)
12:24 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Adjusted time offset warning (MarcoFalke)
12:25 < MarcoFalke> So while the adjusted time was improved over the last couple of years, it still has some shortcomings
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12:25 < laanwj> i've always felt really uncomfortable with the time adjustment code
12:25 < laanwj> can't we just like phase it out
12:25 < MarcoFalke> Just to mention a few: (1) non-monotonic (2) adjusted by peers ...
12:26 < MarcoFalke> So I was thinking to simply remove it and replace it with a stronger warning mechanism
12:26 < laanwj> adjusted by peers based on unauthenticated cleartext data, based on strange criteria which we're too scared to touch
12:26 < laanwj> ack
12:26 < luke-jr> sounds like a good idea IMO
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12:27 < MarcoFalke> The question is how to warn?
12:27 < laanwj> isn't there a warnings field on some RPC call
12:27 < lightlike> what would that "stronger warning mechanism" look like?
12:27 < luke-jr> laanwj: GUI can probably use improvement
12:27 < MarcoFalke> We can't warn at startup, as only the local system time is available
12:27 < luke-jr> maybe the sync overlay could be a good place for it
12:28 < MarcoFalke> I think the GUI is already good. There will be a orange warning, very hard to miss
12:28 < laanwj> yes that seems fine to use
12:28 < MarcoFalke> (For reference there is a long thread at #4521 with cross-links)
12:28 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4521 | AddTimeData will never update nTimeOffset past 199 samples · Issue #4521 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:28 < laanwj> it doesn't have to be at startup
12:29 < laanwj> warnings can be added at any time (it is, or was, used for some other network conditions too)
12:29 < MarcoFalke> So one option I was thinking about was to just shut down the node. Does that seem too agressive?
12:29 < laanwj> way too aggressive
12:29 < laanwj> just log a message and make it available on a RPC call
12:29 < laanwj> like we've always done for warnings
12:30 < MarcoFalke> It seems unlikely the user will ping the RPC regularly to get the warning
12:30 < laanwj> making it possible for peers to shut down your node by flooding you with massaged time values is even worse than we have now
12:30 < laanwj> for fact, they do
12:30 < luke-jr> maybe safe mode wasn't a terrible idea
12:30 < laanwj> or at least used to when warnings were more common i don't know nowadays
12:31 < MarcoFalke> ok, good point
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12:31 < luke-jr> laanwj: otoh, if all your peers are, maybe you want new peers..
12:31 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: I don't think there is a need to shut down the wallet? I think this mostly affects the mining code
12:31 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: I would expect miners to be monitoring the node state closely
12:32 < laanwj> i think it would be valid to strip out the time adjustment system completely, just leave it up to the user's responsibility to have their time correct, like other software does
12:32 < MarcoFalke> So my other idea was to throw an exception in getblocktemplate. Does that seem too agressive?
12:32 < laanwj> having a warning is nice but i don't see it as cirical
12:32 < laanwj> not sure why this would need a more aggressive mechanism than other warnings
12:32 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: also, miners are likely to internally only have peers with their own nodes
12:33 < luke-jr> so throwing in GBT won't be helpful IMO
12:33 < jeremyrubin> could also have something like walletnotify where we call a script to get the time
12:34 < jeremyrubin> that would make it possible for pluggin in an arbiitrary time source if users don't want their system time
12:34 < laanwj> come on, it's 2022, computers tend to have correct system time these days
12:34 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: idk why we would support not using system time
12:34 < laanwj> if you want to mess aroudn with the time for whatever reason there's faketime and even time namespaces in newer linux kernels
12:34 < MarcoFalke> ok, I mean I am fine just removing it. I just wanted to see if there is something we could do better
12:34 < luke-jr> laanwj: exactly
12:35 < luke-jr> we have mockable time too
12:35 < jeremyrubin> i just mean that if you want behavior for "my peers think the time is different" you could let that be configured as a script callback
12:35 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Not for main-net
12:35 < laanwj> MarcoFalke: so i would say the proposal to change it to a warning is fine, for now, it can always be fully removed later if we want, but i don't think it needs a more aggressive mechanism
12:36 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: could be trivially enabled if desired
12:36 < MarcoFalke> laanwj: I think a warning already exists
12:36 < MarcoFalke> I can add a new dedicated RPC for it, too
12:36 < laanwj> not sure a dedicated RPC would be better
12:36 < jeremyrubin> (you can also crontab and parse the log for the warning, which is fine)
12:36 < laanwj> things like warnings are better grouped, so people don't have to listen for everything separately
12:36 < MarcoFalke> I guess a dedicated RPC would make jeremyrubin also happy
12:37 < laanwj> don't we have the time delta in RPC already somewhere
12:37 < MarcoFalke> getpeerinfo, maybe?
12:37 < MarcoFalke> At least the GUI shows it in the peers tab
12:37  * jeremyrubin ponders the nature of happiness 
12:38 < jeremyrubin> i will say that a good portion of nodes might be running on centralized time servers
12:38 < laanwj> i think it's ok to make the information available, dont' think a new RPC is worth it
12:38 < jeremyrubin> so this might be giving someone somewhere the "brick all the nodes" key
12:39 < jonatack> getpeerinfo has a timeoffset field in seconds
12:39 < jeremyrubin> but i don't think it's the biggest deal
12:39 < laanwj> it's not like the time adjustment scheme really protected against that
12:39 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: … someone who can centrally control your server's time, can probably just shut off the power too
12:39 < laanwj> if you can sabotage a centralized timeserver sure you could mess up things for a bit until people figure it out
12:40 < jeremyrubin>  luke-jr: i would expect apple can change my laptops time, but i don't think they can shut my power off
12:40 < laanwj> they could probably delete all software from your system at least
12:40 < luke-jr> that seems naive, but I understand - thought you meant VPS with a shared kernel
12:40 < MarcoFalke> adjusted time really only protects against a 30 or 60 minute offset (DST/time zone) for at most half a year
12:41 < laanwj> in any case, if you're serious about mitigating attacks on timeservers i'd guess that has a much bigger scope than bitcoin
12:41 < laanwj> like, run your own atomic clock and adjust your system time to it
12:42 < MarcoFalke> adjust your system time to Bitcoin (timechain) MTP
12:43 < laanwj> btw, ntp also allows for only very small on the fly changes
12:43 < MarcoFalke> (obviously don't do that)
12:43 < laanwj> it's not like your ntp server can suddenly warp you back hours or days
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12:45 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: might not be terrible tbh
12:45 < luke-jr> if you have a working monotonic clock
12:45 < laanwj> at boot up it will probably accept any time, especially on embedded systems without a RTC, but that's also easiest to detect
12:45 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: You might miss blocks if MTP is lagging too much
12:46 < laanwj> it's also hardly a 'brick all the nodes' key if you have to wait for all servers running nodes to reboot first :)
12:47 < Earnest> monotonic vs bootime might be worth considering as monotonic clocks tend to stop when systems sleep afaiui
12:48 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: well, you'd have to do MTP + 30 minutes at least. a bit of buffer would help handle stuff like this.
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12:48 < Earnest> Ah, nevermind https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=d6ed449afdb38f89a7b38ec50e367559e1b8f71f
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12:48 < luke-jr> laanwj: modern systems constantly sync their clocks over NTP, not just at boot
12:48 < laanwj> Earnest: monotonic clocks are only used for measuring time intervals, so that's fine, usually
12:49 < luke-jr> though maybe only within some limited drift
12:49 < laanwj> luke-jr: yes, but only minimal adjustments 
12:49 < laanwj> at least that's how linux ntpd works, i have no idea about other OSes
12:50 < luke-jr> lots of people use systemd OS now :p
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12:50 < luke-jr> (it ate ntpd)
12:51 < jonatack> getnetworkinfo has a timeoffset field that is our GetTimeOffset() result, IIUC,  as opposed to the offset for each peer in getpeerinfo
12:51 < Earnest> As systemd-timesyncd which is sntpd implementation
12:51 < laanwj> i mean, with all the complications and exceptions it's not realistic as an attack on bitcoin, that's all i was trying to say
12:52 < laanwj> jonatack: nice, so that too already exists
12:53 < luke-jr> maybe getblocktemplate should throw if there's a known better-except-for-time-just-barely block?
12:53 < luke-jr> seems more likely to cause than solve problems tho
12:54 < MarcoFalke> luke-jr: How often did that happen in the last 10 years?
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12:54 < luke-jr> MarcoFalke: no clue
12:54 < jonatack> (and only outbound peers offsets contribute to our timedata samples to make it harder for peers to tamper with our adjusted time... src/net_processing.cpp::2761)
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12:54 < luke-jr> kinda doubt miners would risk getting so close to the time cutoff
12:55 < Guest28> stickies-v: 1 can be tested for non default ports, you just need to look for nodes that are using such ports. There are different ways to do it.
12:56 < laanwj> right i would be surprised if miners weren't already really careful about having correct time on their machines, to rule that out as a reason to miss a block reward
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12:57 < laanwj> any well-meaning protective mechanism added on top might just get in the way in case of some edge case
12:58 < MarcoFalke> Even if one miner is back by 1h and another one forward by 1h, it shouldn't lead to any issues
12:58 < MarcoFalke> Only if the difference is more than 2h
12:58 < laanwj> sure
12:59 < MarcoFalke> Well, thanks everyone for the input!
13:00 < laanwj> it's time to close the meeting
13:00 < laanwj> #endmeeting
13:00 < core-meetingbot`> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
13:00 < core-meetingbot`> Meeting ended Thu Mar 17 20:00:27 2022 UTC.  
13:00 < core-meetingbot`> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-03-17-19.00.moin.txt
13:04 < jonatack> I wonder how many people adjust the -maxtimeadjustment config option (default 70 minutes) on their nodes and with what values
13:04 < jonatack> miners, maybe?
13:05 < dongcarl> Hi all I just set up https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/18 to keep track of all the libbitcoinkernel PRs
13:06 < laanwj> dongcarl: awesome!
13:06 < dongcarl> One question: there are a few PRs which others have opened that will help make future work in libbitcoinkernel easier, can I add an "Relevant External PRs" column to keep track of those?
13:06 < jonatack> seems to be some good discussion of -maxtimeadjustment tradeoffs in #7573
13:06 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7573 | P2P: add maxtimeadjustment command line option by mruddy · Pull Request #7573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:07 < jonatack> dongcarl: nice / sgtm
13:07 < laanwj> i disabled time adjustment entirely for a while but i don't think i'm still bothering in my current configs
13:08 < laanwj> dongcarl: yes, feel free to organize the project board as is useful for you
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13:09 < dongcarl> Also, I'm a bit confused as to what the conclusion of the timedata conversation was above, will we remove it?
13:09 < laanwj> dongcarl: i don't think there was a conclusion
13:10 < dongcarl> Okay got it. Will operate under the assumption that we're not imminently removing it then
13:10 < jeremyrubin> one option we didn't discuss (i think?) is that we can phase it out by continuing to send out our time messages but not reading them... that way we don't let old nodes who rely on these time broadcasts get attacked
13:10 < jeremyrubin> so it can be a thing where we'll happily tell anyone our time, but not care about others time
13:13 < laanwj> i don't think there is any proposal to remove the time from version messages?
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13:14 < laanwj> well i think i heard it mentioned as a fingerprinting vector once, but it's definitely not the same proposal as stopping doing time adjustment
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13:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8435d7f11a89...e09cf64c4828
13:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bf84677 fanquake: doc: cleanup wallet docs in build-osx.md
13:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 57f3f5c fanquake: doc: s/Compiler/Dependency in dependencies.md
13:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e09cf64 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24585: doc: mention that BDB is for the legacy walle...
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13:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #24585: doc: mention that BDB is for the legacy wallet in build-osx.md (master...build_osx_descriptor_legacy_switch) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24585
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13:16 < jonatack> hm, maybe a first step (if people think it's an improvement) would be to change the default -maxtimeadjustment
13:16 < laanwj> it'd be a BIP level change; mind that the version message was always the only time adjustment input, there is no 'time message'
13:17 < MarcoFalke> We can save that for the cleanup-version-msg-bip
13:17 < laanwj> yes
13:17 < MarcoFalke> Pretty sure there is other stuff in the version message that needs to be removed
13:17 < laanwj> correct
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13:19 < lightlike> just noting that with 23.0, we don't use any timestamps from inbound peers anymore (#23631) - that should help with some concerns at least.
13:19 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23631 | p2p: Dont use timestamps from inbound peers for Adjusted Time by mzumsande · Pull Request #23631 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:19 < laanwj> that said, system time in seconds is a pretty lousy fingerprinting vector, and besides, it's also part of many lower level network packets already, so removing it from the bitcoin protocol doesn't do that much to prevent it being used
13:21 < jonatack> lightlike: yes, mentioned that during the meeting (https://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2022-03-17.html#l-592)
13:21 < laanwj> (this is where centralization of time actually helps for privacy i guess :-)
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13:24 < MarcoFalke> lightlike: jonatack: right, that makes it harder to attack adjusted time, but it retains the issues of adjusted time that are present even in the absence of attacks
13:24 < jonatack> jeremyrubin: setting the default -maxtimeadjustment to 0 would take care of that, I guess
13:25 < jonatack> and users could opt in to allowing peers to adjust the timedata
13:25 < laanwj> so that would imply anyone would voluntarily want to enable it
13:26 < laanwj> but it definitely would be the most straightforward change, sure
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13:40 < Guest28> Hi, I would like to know if there is some upcoming privacy method to Bitcoin Core. Even something basic like PayJoin would be nice. Thx!
13:41 < jonatack> yes, i don't know. people seemed to want it on by default in the discussion in #7573. perhaps things have changed as you mentioned earlier above.
13:41 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7573 | P2P: add maxtimeadjustment command line option by mruddy · Pull Request #7573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
13:42 < jonatack> Guest28: see https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/23.0-Release-Notes-draft
13:42 < Guest28> jonatack ok, thx! ;)
13:45 < Guest28> jonatack I don't find any information related to transaction privacy there
13:45 < jonatack> hm, cjdns isn't in the release notes
13:46 < Guest28> (I mean blockchain privacy, not Tor related features)
13:46 < jonatack> Guest28: there may be some items still missing from the release notes draft, but IIRC not a change like you are looking for in v23
13:49 < Guest28> jonatack ok! Is there any chance the upcoming Mimblewimble solution on extension blocks on Litecoin will come to Bitcoin Core? :)
13:50 < Guest28> All risks are contained to the extension block and increases capacity as MW transactions are very small. People could have their savings in the main block (public) and use the extension block for their expenses.
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13:54 < laanwj> this channel is for implementation issues, the mailing list or #bitcoin-wizards would be a better place to discuss proposed consensus changes
13:55 < Guest28> laanwj ok, I will ask there, thx! :)
13:56 < laanwj> jonatack: yes, not sure how much changed in opinions there since 2016, i've always been uncomfortable with the node time adjustment system as it is (also clear from my replies there), but not everyone shares that sentiment obviously
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14:11 < jeremyrubin> jonatack: that seems right
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14:14 < Guest58> jonatack: cjdns isnt a network focused on privacy: a) it is not shared in their goals or wp on github: https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/doc/projectGoals.md
14:14 < Guest58> b) testimonials prove its not a priority c) encryption is not always privacy
14:14 < Guest58> Its tring to solve different problems and using ipv6.
14:14 < Guest58> *trying
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14:16 < laanwj> no, cjdns is not a privacy network, this is well-known, its usecase is for mesh networks, I2P and Tor are supported privacy overlay networks
14:18 < laanwj> besides, mind that privacy requires a large anonimity set so if that's your goal, using something more obscure than Tor or maybe I2P could end up making you less instead of more private
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15:47 < jonatack> Guest58: yes sorry, I noticed that cjdns isn't in the release notes draft but didn't intend to suggest that it was an answer to your question.
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15:59 < Guest7843> jonatack: it wasnt me. we can select our own nick in webchat using this url: https://web.libera.chat/#bitcoin-core-dev and GuestN can be anyone. N depends if its available imo. Guest99 at 00:00 UTC wont me same as Guest99 at 00:30 most of the times.
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17:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #24606: Change -maxtimeadjustment default from 70 minutes to 0 (master...default-zero-maxtimeadjustment) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24606
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17:42 < Guest99> MarcoFalke: https://bitcoin-irc.chaincode.com/bitcoin-core-dev/2022-03-17#791507 this is important and not everyone would understand it. I love the way you shared it, exactly. Dont expect things wont change, almost everything around it and less people testing.
17:42 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/791507 | HTTP Error 404: Not Found
17:44 < Guest99> IDK testing is always "you could do more kind of thing" but he has tried his best alone in this project and did a great job. maybe need more ppl that you could accept
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20:52 < KillerWasp> hello
20:52 < KillerWasp> configure: error: Found Berkeley DB other than 4.8, required for portable BDB wallets (--with-incompatible-bdb to ignore or --without-bdb to disable BDB wallet support)
20:52 < KillerWasp> i'm very stuck here...
20:53 < KillerWasp> oracle don't want giveme a source code for 4.8 or the last version.
20:53 < KillerWasp> like i can only take 5.3.28 from my own system and the ./configure don't want take this version.
20:55 < KillerWasp> i get bitcoin-22.0.tar.gz from your own site: https://bitcoincore.org/en/download/
20:56 < KillerWasp> s/own site/this site/
20:59 < KillerWasp> by now i only can use '--without-bdb' , but would prefer some solution to be able to use wallets.
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21:02 < KillerWasp> checking for boostlib >= 1.64.0 (106400)... configure: We could not detect the boost libraries (version 1.64.0 or higher). If you have a staged boost library (still not installed) please specify $BOOST_ROOT in your environment and do not give a PATH to --with-boost option.  If you are sure you have boost installed, then check your version number looking in <boost/version.hpp>. See http://randspringer.de/boost for more documentation.
21:02 < KillerWasp> well...
21:02 < KillerWasp> they also don't want boost-libs 1.76.0
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21:33 < KillerWasp> i'm very stuck. DEAD END.
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23:59 < luke-jr> KillerWasp: #bitcoin
--- Log closed Fri Mar 18 00:00:29 2022