--- Log opened Thu Jun 30 00:00:07 2022
00:03 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] S3RK opened pull request #25507: wallet: don't add change fee to target if subtracting fees from output (master...correct_target_with_sffo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25507
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03:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #25508: guix: use elfesteem 2eb1e5384ff7a220fd1afacd4a0170acff54fe56 (master...update_elfesteem) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25508
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04:17 < laanwj> ariard: added
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05:55 < darosior> If you have a confirmed transaction, you `gettransaction` it. You then query `listsinceblock`with the 'blockhash' from the result of the `gettransaction` call. The transaction will not be returned. If you pass the blockhash of the previous block, however, it will. Is it the intended behaviour?
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06:04 < laanwj> darosior: it's not clear to me from the RPC help how "since" is to be interpreted
06:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #25505: test: passing a negative value to `-peertimeout` should throw an error (master...2022-06-peertimeout-negative) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25505
06:05 < darosior> Yes, it looks like this behaviour is tested so it is (hopefully) be intended
06:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5bc10b39abbc...bae8a66d42d6
06:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 748a10e /dev/fd0: rephrase error for invalid timeout
06:05 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bae8a66 MacroFake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#25506: Rephrase error message for invalid value of `...
06:05 < laanwj> it could definitely be documented better
06:05 < darosior> I'll open an issue to clarify, as at the very least the documentation is confusing
06:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #25506: Rephrase error message for invalid value of `-peertimeout` (master...peertimeout-error-msg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25506
06:05 < laanwj> right
06:06 < laanwj> i'd personally expect it to be inclusive of the specified block, too
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06:12 < sipa> I think the behavior makes sense, see my comment.
06:13 < darosior> Yeah your explanation makes sense.
06:14 < sipa> It could certainly be better documented.
06:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] darosior opened pull request #25510: rpc: explicit the range for listsinceblock's filtering by block hash is exclusive (master...doc_listsinceblock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25510
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06:19 < laanwj> sipa: yes, that makes sense
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06:20 < jamesob> Random question: was there ever a rationale for the bitcoin/bitcoin-core github org split? I.e. why isn't everything just under one or the other?
06:21 < ariard> laanwj: thanks
06:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #25511: test: non-positive integer value to `-peertimeout` should throw an error (master...2022-06-peertimeout-positive-integer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25511
06:21 < laanwj> jamesob: ideally everything should be under bitcoin-core, that said, the bitcoin/bitcoin repo name is hardcoded in so many places
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06:21 < jamesob> laanwj: ah gotcha
06:22 < laanwj> well, bips is the thing that can be argued to belong under bitcoin itself
06:22 < laanwj> anyhow, old wounds
06:23 < jamesob> right
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06:25 < laanwj> i guess it becomes relevant again if we ever split up the repo (e.g. in a consensus part and the rest), but that's not even a consideration right now
06:26 < jamesob> for sure
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07:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ayush933 opened pull request #25512: test: refactor rpc_signrawtransaction.py (master...rpc_signrawtransactionwithkey_no_wallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25512
07:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bae8a66d42d6...b6cf0f8848ed
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d22bd54 brunoerg: test: passing a non-positive integer value to `-peertimeout` should throw ...
07:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b6cf0f8 MacroFake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#25511: test: non-positive integer value to `-peertim...
07:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #25511: test: non-positive integer value to `-peertimeout` should throw an error (master...2022-06-peertimeout-positive-integer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25511
07:12 < instagibbs> does github let you "ACK" someone's comment, so it's re-exposed in your gihub review thread thing?
07:12 < instagibbs> like "yeah this needs to be fixed" without making an entirely new comment
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07:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b6cf0f8848ed...1ee597817fb0
07:39 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f319287 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: assert serialized txouts size of `gen_return_txouts` helper
07:39 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b1ba3ed Sebastian Falbesoner: test: let `gen_return_txouts` create a single large OP_RETURN output
07:39 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 475aae8 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: pass `datacarriersize` option for tests using large outputs (instead...
07:39 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #25503: test: pass `datacarriersize` option for tests using large outputs (instead of `acceptnonstdtxn`) (master...202206-test-replace_acceptnonstdxn_with_datacarriersize_option) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25503
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07:43 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1ee597817fb0...6adae27f8c75
07:43 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa07651 glozow: [rpc] add new submitpackage RPC
07:44 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e866f0d glozow: [functional test] submitrawpackage RPC
07:44 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6adae27 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24836: add RPC (-regtest only) for testing package p...
07:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #24836: add RPC (-regtest only) for testing package policy (master...client-submitpackage) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24836
07:53 < kouloumos> Has anyone ever tried to add tracepoints support for macOS? Except of the kind of related reference in #22238 I couldn't find any other tangible mention.
07:53 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22238 | build: improve detection of eBPF support by fanquake · Pull Request #22238 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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08:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #25513: psbt: Check Taproot tree depth and leaf versions (master...taproot-psbt-check-leaf-ver) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25513
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08:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6adae27f8c75...5d68d6840d9c
08:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eec23da Ayush Sharma: test: remove wallet dependency from feature_nulldummy.py
08:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 50ba669 Ayush Sharma: remove unused functions
08:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5d68d68 MacroFake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#25364: test: remove wallet dependency from feature_n...
08:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #25364: test: remove wallet dependency from feature_nulldummy.py (master...nulldummy_no_wallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25364
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09:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5d68d6840d9c...c892cb7d8d8d
09:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bda8ebe furszy: wallet: don't read db every time that a new WalletBatch is created
09:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c318211 furszy: walletdb: fix last client version update
09:41 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c892cb7 MacroFake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#25383: wallet: don't read db every time that a new '...
09:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #25383: wallet: don't read db every time that a new 'WalletBatch' is created (master...2022_wallet_db_read) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25383
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11:01 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dergoegge opened pull request #25514: net processing: Move CNode::nServices and CNode::nLocalServices to Peer (master...2022-06-move-services) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25514
11:04 < MacroFake> Is there a meeting today?
11:04 < fanquake> in ~1hr i think?
11:04 < sipa> I think so? 1 hour from now.
11:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dergoegge opened pull request #25515: [draft] PeerManager unit tests (master...2022-06-virt-connman) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25515
11:06 < MacroFake> ah thx
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12:00 < laanwj> #startmeeting
12:00 <@core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 30 19:00:31 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
12:00 <@core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
12:00 < hebasto> hi
12:00 < jarolrod> hi
12:00 < sdaftuar> hi
12:00 < cfields_> hi
12:00 < sipa> hi
12:01 < fanquake> hi
12:01 < instagibbs> hi
12:01 < laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard b10c BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo
12:01 < glozow> hi
12:01 < laanwj> moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
12:01 < lightlike> hi
12:01 < MacroFake> hi
12:01 < ariard> hi
12:01 < laanwj> welcome to the weekly general bitcoin-core-dev meeting
12:01 < kvaciral> hi
12:01 < michaelfolkson> hi
12:01 < laanwj> there has been one topic proposed in advance: glozow for rbf / mempool / validation maintainer (fanquake)
12:02 < laanwj> you can propose topics at any time during the week with #proposedmeetingtopic
12:02 < laanwj> any last minute topics?
12:02 < achow101> hi
12:02 < b10c> hi
12:03 < kanzure> hi
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12:04 < laanwj> #topic High priority for review
12:04 <@core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
12:05 < laanwj> there are 7 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK in https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/1
12:05 < MacroFake> #24697 for me pls (It makes removing adjusted time a little bit easier, but it is not strictly required)
12:05 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24697 | refactor address relay time by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #24697 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:05 < laanwj> (the URL moved, as we migrated the project to the new github projects)
12:06 < dongcarl> #25487 for me please!
12:06 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25487 | [kernel 3b/n] Make `{Dump,Load}Mempool` `CTxMemPool` methods, decouple from `ArgsManager` by dongcarl · Pull Request #25487 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:06 < laanwj> MacroFake: added
12:07 < MacroFake> Maybe #21702 can be removed for needing rebase?
12:07 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < dongcarl> Ping jeremyrubin 
12:07 < laanwj> dongcarl: also added
12:07 < MacroFake> Same for #22693 ?
12:07 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22693 | RPC/Wallet: Add "use_txids" to output of getaddressinfo by luke-jr · Pull Request #22693 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:07 < fanquake> Can I have https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25484. Few changes building on top of that
12:08 < achow101> #24699 for me
12:08 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24699 | wallet: Improve AvailableCoins performance by reducing duplicated operations by achow101 · Pull Request #24699 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:08 < luke-jr> I can prioritise a rebase of that
12:09 < laanwj> achow101: added
12:09 < laanwj> MacroFake: depends on how long it has needed rebase imo
12:10 < MacroFake> Yeah, one week seems fine, but if something is sitting for several weeks, I am not sure what reviewers can do
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12:10 < Murch> hi
12:10 < laanwj> agree
12:11 < laanwj> looks like it has needed rebase since may 6
12:11 < laanwj> so yes removing it for now
12:13 < laanwj> okay, anything else to add/remove, or that is in the list and almost ready for merge?
12:15  * luke-jr squashes a cricket
12:16 < laanwj> (btw, if you have a project board, and want to migrate it to the new github projects beta, let me know, this is possible now)
12:16 < laanwj> #topic glozow for rbf / mempool / validation maintainer
12:16 <@core-meetingbot> topic: glozow for rbf / mempool / validation maintainer
12:16 < fanquake> Cool
12:16 < laanwj> ack
12:16 < fanquake> Per the topic, I'm proposing we make Gloria (https://github.com/glozow) a maintainer; over ~ rbf / mempool / policy
12:16 < fanquake> She has been actively working on Bitcoin Core for > 2 years. Predominately in the mempool & validation code.
12:16 < fanquake> Her current project is package rbf/relay, and I know she has a number of thoughts in regards to improving the surrounding code.
12:17 < fanquake> More recently she has also been reviewing / helping improve in /wallet/, which I'm sure achow appreciates
12:17 < fanquake> I think she is a great candidate for being a maintainer
12:17 < achow101> ack
12:17 < cfields_> +1
12:17 < hebasto> ack
12:17 < sipa> The obvious question, glozow: are you interested in helping out with maintaining?
12:17 < instagibbs> lol
12:17 < MacroFake> sipa: sssh
12:17 < instagibbs> (ack)
12:17 < luke-jr> who said she has a choice? /s
12:17 < cfields_> err.. assuming ^^ :)
12:18 < glozow> thanks fanquake, I appreciate the recognition. Yes I'd like to help out in any way I can.
12:18 < dongcarl> ack if she wants it
12:18 < michaelfolkson> Who is currently merging mempool/policy PRs? Marco?
12:18 < Murch> ack
12:18 < sipa> ack, in that case
12:18 < b10c> ack
12:18 < MacroFake> sgtm
12:19 < laanwj> awesome!
12:19 < b10c> nit: brink would then fund 3 maintainers. not that this is a problem, i just want to mention it.
12:19 < jeremyrubin> i am mild nack on it -- i think that Gloria is suitable and qualified, but i think that maintainership might hinder more than help her progress
12:19 < jeremyrubin> since it seems it would largely be her with merge resposnibility over her own work
12:20 < dongcarl> what does glozow think?
12:20 < instagibbs> this seems like a larger question(which is valid) on self-merges
12:20 < achow101> jeremyrubin: the same was with the wallet for me
12:20 < MacroFake> jeremyrubin: Somewhat it is a requirement to have worked extensively on a piece of code before you can maintain it
12:20 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: doesn't seem far off from fanquake's role/work to me.
12:20 < cfields_> right, and achow101.
12:20 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I don't know that's a problem. Maintainers tend to work in the area they merge in
12:20 < achow101> at least it will help with getting other people's work in too
12:21 < luke-jr> the process of merging still requires third party review
12:21 < sipa> I think this was brought up with achow101's maintainership as well, and I think the counterpoints are similar: it's better than having their own work merged at all, and that is something other maintainers can still do.
12:21 < sipa> *not merged at all
12:21 < glozow> Spending time in this area of the codebase has led me to understand that we have plenty of non-package-relay limitations to address, and reviewing mempool and policy-related things is often the best use of my time. So I had planned to do more of that anyway. Not that this means dropping package relay, but there are lots of non-package relay things to look after. And if people are not comfortable with me merging my own code, then I won't do 
12:21 < glozow> that.
12:21 < laanwj> luke-jr: sipa: exactly
12:22 < ariard> i think it's always okay to say to a maintainer we have found the merge too fast or not matching the historical level of reviews for a critical area of the codebase
12:22 < lightlike> ack
12:23 < luke-jr> ariard: counterpoint, last time that was ignored and the PR not reverted as it ought to have been
12:23 < ariard> luke-jr: as usual, one contributor viewpoint might not express the project consensus
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12:24 < luke-jr> it means there is no consensus; and I certainly was not alone
12:24 < jeremyrubin> well to be clear this is very different role than maybe fanquake or achow 
12:24 < jeremyrubin> since this is -- as desrcribed here -- "validation maintainer"
12:24 < bytes1440000> b10c: its a good point and maintainers funded by different orgs is always better for a project like bitcoin core
12:24 < sipa> luke-jr: ignoring specific cases, i agree that nobody should feel restricted from commenting on too-fast-merges.
12:24 < luke-jr> in any case, it's not related to the topic of glozow's role IMO
12:24 < ariard> though to express wider thought on the mempool maintership, imo it's one area of the codebase expected to grow in complexity in the coming years with upper layers requirements
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12:25 < ariard> like we'll likely have a bunch of other beasts like package relay to land in the coming decade for all the covenants/eltoo stuff
12:25 < bytes1440000> i am not sure if bitcoin core needs another person with commit access with already 6 but always felt it needs more reviewers looking at open pull requests
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12:25 < jeremyrubin> a wallet maintainer affects mostly those who choose to user the software, it's not clear what the scope is of a validation maintainter to me 
12:25 < laanwj> mempool maintainer is much clearer
12:26 < bytes1440000> ariard: you could also be a mempool maintainer?
12:26 < cfields_> bytes1440000: that's not the discussion now.
12:26 < MacroFake> I think "validation" is meant in the context of mempool validation? (ATMP is in validation.cpp)
12:26 < laanwj> i'm also not really sure what 'validation maintainer' would be
12:26 < jeremyrubin> maybe we could do a better job of drafting an actual "Job Description" for what glozow is being appiinted as?
12:26 < ariard> bytes1440000: no, i don't intend to be maintainer, i don't have the profile for and when it has been proposed to me for LDK, i did refuse
12:26 < sipa> ariard: I'm not sure that's all that related to specific consensus changes, but sure... i do expect significant complexity and the need for people keeping a good overview over it, regarding tx relay
12:26 < fanquake> I did clarify to mempool / rbf / policy, in the sentences above
12:27 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: as with all maintainers, it's supposed to be janitorial
12:27 < luke-jr> running a script when there's review and consensus on a PR
12:27 < laanwj> fanquake: makes sense to me said like that
12:27 < bytes1440000> ariard: okay
12:27 < fanquake> i may have said validation in the proposed topic, but not specifically in this discussion
12:27 < fanquake> i did say she had worked on the code in validation
12:27 < sipa> Yeah, I prefer the role to be "mempool / rbf / policy" rather than validation.
12:27 < luke-jr> I'd drop "rbf" - seems like too minor a detail :p
12:28 < achow101> mempool/policy, components of which live in validation.cpp.. our naming sucks
12:28 < sipa> If we're bikeshedding, "mempool and transaction relay policy" ?
12:28 < jeremyrubin> i think it would make sense to draft a Job Description of what the appointment is for and scoping, and have people ack that when it exists. 
12:29 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: that would've made sense for every prior nomination as well.
12:29 < jeremyrubin> yeah
12:29 < laanwj> the name can be more abstract it doesn't have to be precise a specfic cpp or so, we've never divided things up like that
12:29 < jeremyrubin> it would have
12:29 < ariard> sipa: sure, my thought was the mempool is a good candidate to get a maintainer in the coming years, if the complexity keeps increasing
12:29 < jeremyrubin> we probably should have done that
12:29 < Murch> mempool+policy sgtm
12:29 < jeremyrubin> as noted, i am not opposed to glozow having some set of responsibilities, it just doesn't seem like we're holding ourselves to a good standard to not do this
12:29 < glozow> Mempool / Policy is a scope I am fine with and plan to review anyway. Maybe we can one day more them out of validation.cpp if that's important to people. It seems the core question is whether or not people think I am knowledgeable enough to gauge whether a PR has enough review to be merged, since that's what a maintainer does.
12:29 < michaelfolkson> ack
12:29 < laanwj> glozow: i'm sure you are!
12:30 < luke-jr> sipa: policy affects more than relay in practice; and often relay isn't even given the priority
12:30 < ariard> jeremyrubin: yes, i agree we might do a Job Description to get the scoping right
12:30  * dongcarl is fully in support of inverting the validation -> mempool dependency
12:30 < BlueMatt[m]> dongcarl: lol good luck
12:30 < cfields_> :)
12:30 < laanwj> we don't have that kind of precise scoping for maintainers, i don't think that's necessary
12:31 < luke-jr> glozow: IIRC you seemed confused about the relation between miners and relay policy; but I may be misremembering, and/or maybe cleared that up
12:31 < laanwj> we all have an idea what mempool+transaction relay is
12:31 < sipa> maintainers also learn, and responsibilities evolve
12:31 < achow101> tbh maintainers have merged things outside of their explicit scopes, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing
12:31 < dongcarl> I do like an "inclusionary" list of responsibilities, not an "exclusionary" one
12:31 < achow101> so long as every PR has been reviewed by multiple people and there is consensus for merging, it doesn't particularly matter who is merging
12:31 < laanwj> achow101: right, as long as there is agreement that's fine
12:31 < jeremyrubin> ok so then we aren't discussing adding gloria as a scoped maintainer, it's as a general maintainer?
12:31 < jeremyrubin> that seems like a different discussion, which is also OK to have
12:31 < MacroFake> Agree with achow101 and laanwj
12:32 < luke-jr> x.x
12:32 < achow101> jeremyrubin: all maintainers are basically general maintainers
12:32 < achow101> but have a focus
12:32 < laanwj> achow101: yes, that
12:32 < ariard> okay that might be the discussion, should we evolve towards scoped maintainance
12:32 < laanwj> i'm not sure
12:33 < luke-jr> I don't see that would improve things
12:33 < Murch> It's not like the parts of the codebases are that isolated
12:33 < sipa> i hope we don't need to have discussions about whether or not something was someone's purview to merge
12:33 < laanwj> sipa: +1
12:33 < sipa> the role is janitorial, as already pointed out
12:33 < laanwj> i don't think that has ever happened anyway, and probably shouldn't
12:33 < jeremyrubin> i think i would just like clarity -- you see how it is not good that gloria was proposed to be a scoped maintainer, everyone ACK'd that, and now it's backtracking into well it's always general purpose overall project maintenance?
12:33 < sipa> and i hope that the people given maintainer responsibilities are expected to judge their own expertise in making that decision
12:33 < jeremyrubin> Adding a maintainer is a serious, important thing
12:34 < bytes1440000> +1
12:34 < jeremyrubin> so I think as a project we should communicate more clearly about what exactly is being done and expected 
12:34 < jeremyrubin> and if people are ACK voting, they should know what for
12:34 < MacroFake> jeremyrubin: It would be suspicious if glozow went out and merged a ton of build system changes that are reviewed, but not by her
12:34 < laanwj> i don't think that's necessary, but feel free to write something up if you want
12:34 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: as has adding every past maintainer. I think if you're going to call for procedural changes, you need to make it clear why this one's different.
12:34 < MacroFake> However, if she decides to work on the build system in 2 years, that should be reasonable
12:35 < jeremyrubin> cfields_ i have been asking for maintainers to give more clarity for a while 
12:35 < jeremyrubin> so i am not personally departing from any prior stance
12:35 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: people want to spend time on code, not necessarily process
12:35 < luke-jr> at least myself
12:35 < laanwj> luke-jr: +100
12:36 < dongcarl> I'm ACKing for glozow to be focused on mempool / policy but have the ability to act in a general maintainer way as long as it's not repeatedly unilaterally stepping on other maintainers' toes
12:36 < achow101> ^ that
12:36 < sipa> dongcarl: +1
12:37 < laanwj> sure, i mean given that she even wants that
12:37 < glozow> Thank you dongcarl. I agree to "be focused on mempool / policy but have the ability to act in a general maintainer way as long as it's not repeatedly unilaterally stepping on other maintainers' toes."
12:37 < ariard> from my viewpoint, the worthiness of a scoped maintainership is when you have a security issue to talk about you know at least whom should be the default interlocutor (even if I know we have a catch-all mailist endpoint)
12:38 < laanwj> that also works for semi-scoped
12:38 < Murch> Well, I'd have rephrased the second half of that to, and "expect to judge their own expertise in making merge decisions" as mentioned by Pieter above
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12:39 < jeremyrubin> i want to spend time on a beach with a pina colada -- however, process work is a part of the development of the "bitcoin core organization", so you can't just stick your head in the sand and ignore it, especially when it comes to doling out commit access 
12:39 < laanwj> if there's some urgent issue you talk to the person who has the focus on a certain area
12:39 < laanwj> no, i don't think adding more bureaucracy and formality makes things better
12:40 < luke-jr> there is no bitcoin core organization
12:40 < ariard> yeah, the "who has the focus on a certain area" might not always be clear, and it's more then whom you should nudge to get covert a fix done
12:41 < MacroFake> As a general rule, if you have an idea to improve the process, suggestions are welcome.
12:41 < sipa> As the project grows, some form of process/organization is expected to come into play. Until a few years ago, maintainers had barely any focus, let alone a well-defined focus. I think it suffices to talk about maintainers with a focus: people who have maintainer rights, but are expected to mostly focus on one aspect.
12:41 < sipa> Let's not rush adding more formality to this, it's already burdensome enough.
12:41 < laanwj> yes
12:42 < dongcarl> That sounds right to me!
12:42 < jeremyrubin> how burdensome is it to write a simple Job Description describing what "mempool / policy / validation / RBF" is so that we know what the focus actually is of the proposed new maintainer?
12:42 < michaelfolkson> I think being willing and available to discuss a controversial merge decision on IRC is important. Beyond that every PR has its own subtleties
12:42 < dongcarl> jeremyrubin: EPARSE
12:43 < laanwj> i think you're dragging things out now jeremyrubin 
12:43 < laanwj> any other topics?
12:43 < ariard> anyway, i think a mempool maintainer is a good thing and I think glozow is a valuable candidate, however maybe we could take more time to think about the effective scope and if we have other candidates interested (again: i'm not interested)
12:44 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: so write it yourself and propose it for merging to project docs in a PR
12:44 < dongcarl> I have a small implementation detail thing that's probs not important enough for the meeting but would like to chat a bit afterwards
12:44 < jeremyrubin> perhaps I am dragging it out -- i would fire back that you're avoiding important discourse on accountability of maintainers, something that you shouldn't shy away from in general. All maintainers should be able to produce 5 sentences on what areas they are focused on.
12:45 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: not 6?
12:45 < jeremyrubin> gotta start somewhere
12:45 < michaelfolkson> Regardless the work Gloria has done on mempool, policy, package relay, PR review club is great. This discussion isn't Gloria related, just process questions
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12:45 < laanwj> sigh
12:45 < bytes1440000> ariard: +1 will be interesting to see if others are also interested to be a maintainer for different things
12:45 < dongcarl> I think "mempool / policy" is quite clear
12:46 < cfields_> bytes1440000: stop.
12:46 < achow101> jeremyrubin: how specific do you want this description to be? I find "mempool / rbf / policy" to be clear in scope
12:46 < jeremyrubin> generally the more the better -- achow101 has done a good  job detailing his course of action / wallet priorities IMO
12:46 < achow101> per file? per line? The codebase is complex enough that a PR in one area still has effects on code in other places that are "out of scope"
12:47  * luke-jr echos laanwj's sigh
12:47 < instagibbs> If I'm made policy maintainer, I'll make sure the snack bar is refilled on consistent intervals
12:47 < bytes1440000> cfields_ : are people not allowed to respond in this channel?
12:47 < luke-jr> lol
12:47 < jeremyrubin> i don
12:47 < jeremyrubin> i don't find that to be sufficiently descriptive personally 
12:48  * luke-jr imagines instagibbs flying around the world to each dev's office to refill snacks
12:48 < laanwj> hehe
12:49 < jeremyrubin> glozow is it a problem to write up your intended focus areas and prioritizations for the project?
12:49 < laanwj> if she wants to write something up that's fine ofc
12:49 < glozow> jeremyrubin: I'm sure people have varying ideas of what amount of prioritizing or "roadmapping" would be appropriate, but I did prepare a list of things I consider important and would work on https://gist.github.com/glozow/5b8cfa27945371921dfe4d99b17e0424
12:49 < sipa> FWIW, I think it's a good idea in general for everyone (not just maintainers) to talk about their priorities and current focus.
12:49 < MacroFake> jeremyrubin: I'd say a personal roadmap is different from the tasks of a maintainer
12:49 < jeremyrubin> for example, achow101 has made docs like this https://achow101.com/2020/10/0.21-wallets 
12:50 < jeremyrubin> MacroFake: i think that's a theoretical distinction 
12:50 < jeremyrubin> practically, maintainers work on what they are interested in.
12:50 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: achow101 is great at community/social publication of his work efforts; but that doesn't mean it needs to become a standard everyone has to abide by
12:50 < jeremyrubin> everyone doesn't get to be a maintainer either
12:50 < laanwj> it isn't a theoretical distinction only, as maintainer you're not supposed to only merge what you're working on yourself
12:51 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: it's a responsibility, not a privilege
12:51 < instagibbs> I guess the question is what is the writeup for, who is the audience
12:51 < ariard> glozow: I think that's a good start, maybe open a GH issue, I would be interested to feed thoughts there and roll the ball forward on mempool maintenance
12:51 < sipa> The role of maintainers, jointly, is merging PRs that are ready. The question of focus is mostly about determining who among them is best placed to judge a particular PR's status.
12:51 < laanwj> sipa: right!
12:52 < fanquake> ariard: I think issues for specific topics would be fine. Although not a single catch-all for discussion of the entire contents of that gist
12:53 < jarolrod> i dont think glozow has to do all of these write-ups, we know what she works on and the idea of what she will be maintaining is fairly clear
12:53 < ariard> I would say we're missing few folks who has spent time on the mempool recently at that meeting: darosior, realtbast, jamesob and maybe few others L2 devs, they might have thoughts on mempool maintenance
12:53 < laanwj> ariard: agree, we don't take final descisions in meetings anyway
12:53 < ariard> fanquake: yeah anything to have more visibility on what are people interested with and allocate review time would be great
12:53 < luke-jr> ^
12:53 < jeremyrubin> glozow ariard +1 -- it's a good start
12:54 < jeremyrubin> laanwj: ah, what is the process then for decision on maintainership then?
12:54 < jeremyrubin> I thought it was being decided here
12:54 < laanwj> jeremyrubin: i'm done arguing process with you
12:54 < achow101> ariard: yes, we let people see the pr to add the merge key for a few days / weeks before actually merging it and granting rights
12:54 < luke-jr> jeremyrubin: btw, just to be clear, do you have any reservations with glozow merging PRs with the same expectations for maintainers in general?
12:54 < jeremyrubin> well you just said "ariard: agree, we don't take final descisions in meetings anyway"
12:55 < achow101> ack/nack on the merge key pr is the "final decision"
12:55 < fanquake> because nothing is actually done until a pr has been open, reviewed, merged
12:55 < laanwj> but it's prbably good to let some time pass so people can bring up potential issues they have with glozow being maintainer, or proposed alternatives
12:55 < jarolrod> ^ laanwj agree
12:55 < luke-jr> there can always be multiple maintainers - I don't know that alternatives are an objection
12:55 < laanwj> no, that's true
12:55 < jeremyrubin> laanwj: if you can't civilly discuss what process in your decision making you're not suited to be a maintainer... accountability is part of the job.
12:56 < laanwj> jeremyrubin: not everything is about your opinions
12:56 < jeremyrubin> i never said it is
12:56 < jeremyrubin> but you're trying to quash a relevant discussion for what reason?
12:56 < laanwj> jeremyrubin: you keep stating your preferences as some kind of facts that is very annoying to me
12:57 < instagibbs> I'm just going to venture that continuing this isnt helping
12:57 < michaelfolkson> +1
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12:57 < jeremyrubin> i'm sorry to have annoyed you?
12:57 < ariard> jeremyrubin: i think accountability of maintainers is an interesting topic, however i think it's better to talk about it in a chill venues like coredev or on the mailing list, there is a lot of context IRC might not be the best medium
12:57 < achow101> jeremyrubin: you've been around long enough to see multiple people receive (and renounce) maintainership, I'm surprised that you are not already aware of the process.
12:57 < glozow> I care about the health of mempool/policy and Bitcoin Core, and I take it very seriously so I'm happy to be held to a high standard. All of the work we do is  entirely in public, so you are always free to audit me, tell me I've done something wrong, or request I prioritize other things. If you want to test my knowledge or preparedness, please let me know what the standard is beforehand and apply it equally to everyone in the same role.
12:58 < ariard> achow101: sgtm, to have a PR open for a while and see if we have any objections, I think it's worhty to have a discussion there or elsewhere on the scope
12:58 < jeremyrubin> glozow: +1
12:59 < jeremyrubin> re luke-jr: I'd probably want to have a 1-1 convo with gloria about her views on general maintainership before i'd personally endorse, but I don't have a nack presently 
13:00 < cfields_> in that case i think we can continue without jeremyrubin's endorsement.
13:00 < laanwj> time is up, closing the meeting
13:00 < laanwj> #endmeeting
13:00 <@core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
13:00 <@core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Jun 30 20:00:33 2022 UTC.  
13:00 <@core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-06-30-19.00.moin.txt
13:02 < michaelfolkson> Demanding a 1-1 conversation before "endorsing" is absurd, gosh. Anyway did dongcarl have a mini project update?
13:02 < dongcarl> Not a mini project update
13:02 < MacroFake> 3a/n was merged :party:
13:02 < jeremyrubin> i don't think that's at all unreasonable
13:02 < jeremyrubin> i also work on this part of the code
13:03 < jeremyrubin> why would it be weird to want to get a better sense of how gloria intends philisophically to maintain it?
13:03 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: because there's zero precedent for that and you need to say whatever it is that you really mean or stop derailing.
13:03 < ariard> jeremyrubin: while you wouldn't start a ML post and invite politely glozow to express her thoughts ?
13:03 < dongcarl> MacroFake: 3a/n was merged thanks to all the reviewers who got through the many changes. Thanks!
13:04 < instagibbs> \o/
13:04 < jeremyrubin> well this is the first i'm hearing of a nomination for mempool maintainer 
13:04 < jeremyrubin> i think it'd be great to have a ML post or something?
13:04 < dongcarl> I think 3a sets a good example for all the following Argsman decoupling PRs
13:04 < jeremyrubin> cfields_: ...
13:04 < MacroFake> dongcarl: Apologies for my last minute nit-attack, feel free to ignore them when the pr is in a late stage
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13:05 < jeremyrubin> there's no hidden agenda or anything here and I don't think it is derailing to ask basic questions like this
13:05 < dongcarl> As for my question... I wanted to ask about the split of -maxsigachesize between InitSignatureCache and InitScriptExecutionCache
13:05 < dongcarl> Is that intended to stay longer term or should I deal with it as I do my decoupling?
13:05 < sipa> the fact that 50% goes to the sigcache and 50% to the script exec cache?
13:05 < sipa> or is this about code orgnanization
13:06 < jeremyrubin> glozow is perfectly eloquent and capable of justifying and explaining herself, and I don't think a pile on which amounts to "we don't need to answer questions" is doing her any favors 
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13:06 < dongcarl> sipa: Yup! Wondering if we intend to make 2 separate flags for them, or if splitting 50/50 is good for now
13:06 < dongcarl> Also okay if no one has strong opinions haha
13:07 < sipa> dongcarl: My guideline for "should something be configurable" is: can you clearly express the conditions under which someone should use it.
13:07 < sipa> If you can't do that, how do you expect the user to know better.
13:07 < laanwj> dongcarl: i don't have a strong opinion on it, but adding too many options is overwhelming
13:07 < dongcarl> Okay! I will keep the existing then :-)
13:07 < laanwj> sipa: right
13:07 < dongcarl> yeah one cache doesn't make sense without the other
13:07 < laanwj> like "does anyone want to fine-tune this manually in the first place? why?"
13:08 < sipa> I'm not sure I can even express when someone should change the size of the cache at all, except in very low-memory situations perhaps.
13:08 < sipa> dongcarl: Oh they have very different purposes, one of them without the other is certainly better than nothing. But both is even better.
13:09 < bytes1440000> jeremyrubin: There is nothing unreasonable with your questions or thoughts about the process. Commit access being given is a big thing and anyone reading the chat could understand some people don't like questions or different opinions or freedom to participate in this discussion and share thoughts.
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13:10 < Murch> It's a janitorial duty where people assess what's ready to merge and merge it
13:13 < michaelfolkson> The work over 2+ years speaks for itself. Especially if you've worked on this part of the codebase with that person during that time. What can be said in a 1-1 conversation that could change your mind?
13:14 < michaelfolkson> "If you endorse me I'll merge all your PRs"? It is just absurd. Anyway... 
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13:16 < jeremyrubin> my comment was w.r.t. luke-jr's comment about *general maintainership*
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13:30 < dongcarl> BTW, I want to reiterate my thanks to all the reviewers for libbitcoinkernel. I can't do it without you guys. If there are things I can improve on in responding to review, feel free to let me know either here or direct message me!
13:31 < ariard> can we have a "libbitcoinkernel" mug plz :) ?
13:32 < dongcarl> ariard: Lmao nice idea! I'll see what I can do :-)
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13:35 < jeremyrubin> fwiw for anyone interested, C/F a meeting in Feb-22 https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/2022-02-24.log with laanwj pointing out that glozow as mempool maintainer would be a bad idea, given it's her prime area of work 
13:35 < jeremyrubin> 11:37 < laanwj> so like, the mempool is notoriously difficult to get people to review for, so, we make glozow mempool maintainer
13:35 < jeremyrubin> 11:38 < jeremyrubin> laanwj: glozow is currently one of the main people writing new mempool code, so her being a maintainer probably doesn't help much
13:35 < jeremyrubin> 11:38 < laanwj> jeremyrubin: that was exactly my point
13:36 < laanwj> i changed my mind
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13:36 < jeremyrubin> but do you see how given this was our prior conversation on the matter, it's not odd that i reiterate the question to see what's changed?
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13:37 < laanwj> asking questions is fine
13:37 < cfields_> that is a reasonable thing to bring up, yes.
13:38 < laanwj> making random demands from people is not
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13:39 < jeremyrubin> a random demand would be one unrelated to the work, e/g. "draw an owl"
13:39 < jeremyrubin> if it's related to the work it's not really random...
13:40 < jeremyrubin> anyways i'd be curious to know in particular what made you change your mind about the suitability of glozow as mempool maintainer (e.g., something about the project, about gloria, about the role of maint, etc)
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13:41 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: trying to defuse a bit... please step back and consider that it looks like you're moving the goalposts and you're being met with pushback there because it's generally not in anyone's best interests to engage with such demands.
13:42 < jeremyrubin> which goalpost moved?
13:42 < jeremyrubin> and also what is the random demand in particular that i'd made?
13:43 < cfields_> jeremyrubin: demands for a formal job description and interview as a requirement for your approval.
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13:45 < laanwj> jeremyrubin: glozow being maintainer doesn't prevent other maintainers from merging her PRs, just like it is done now, it does allow her to merge other people's mempool related PRs so reducing our burden in that regard
13:48 < laanwj> if she was the only person working on the mempool then yeah, it would make very little difference
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13:48 < laanwj> but whether she's officially maintainer or not she's definitely one of the most qualified persons to review mempool PRs at this point
13:49 < jeremyrubin> no doubt!
13:49 < dongcarl> Weird question: is there a reason why we use angled brackets for includes? When I work with the clang suite it seems to prefer double quotes instead. Just curious.
13:50 < laanwj> dongcarl: yes, it forces all include paths to be relative to the project root
13:50 < sipa> dongcarl: we switched to that at some point, you can probably find a rationale in the PR.
13:50 < laanwj> instead of current directory
13:50 < cfields_> dongcarl: we converted them all a while back. There's a PR that should be easy enough to find with a few git blame's.
13:50 < sipa> Ah yes, what laanwj says.
13:50 < laanwj> there were some issues with same-name include files
13:51 < dongcarl> Ah I see!
13:51 < dongcarl> thanks
13:51 < laanwj> this rules out potential ambiguity (except with system headers, but...)
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18:23 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] SecurityBTC opened pull request #25517: Create google=CryptographyBTCc^=`¶TBamanciojsilvjr (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25517
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18:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] SecurityBTC opened pull request #25518: Create google=CryptographyBTCc^=`¶TBamanciojsilvjr (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25518
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18:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] SecurityBTC opened pull request #25519: Create google=CryptographyBTCc^=`¶TBamanciojsilvjr (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25519
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19:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #25519: Create google=CryptographyBTCc^=`¶TBamanciojsilvjr (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25519
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19:05 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #25518: Create google=CryptographyBTCc^=`¶TBamanciojsilvjr (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25518
19:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #25517: Create google=CryptographyBTCc^=`¶TBamanciojsilvjr (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25517
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19:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] SeenHit opened pull request #25520: Delete extra space or tab indent (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25520
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23:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #25520: Delete extra space or tab indent (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25520
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 01 00:00:08 2022