--- Log opened Mon Nov 07 00:00:10 2022
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00:47 < gleb07122> I'm noticing another race condition with p2p tests... do you know what might be the reason? @lightlike MacroFake https://cirrus-ci.com/task/6687915036639232?logs=functional_tests#L1436
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00:49 < gleb07122> I can probably just replace wait_until bytesrecv_per_msg -> wait_until log message and see if that passes, but i kinda wanna understand what's wrong too.
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02:14 < vasild> gleb07122: self.nodes[0].getpeerinfo()[-1] -> list index out of range
02:14 < vasild> I am poor pythoner but I guess that means that either nodes[] or getpeerinfo()[] arrays are empty
02:15 < vasild> I cant see how nodes[] could be empty, so it must be the getpeerinfo()[] array and if that is empty it means no peers are connected at the timem it executes
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02:15 < vasild> what about waiting for the array to become non-empty?
02:17 < vasild> that is to change `wait_until(lambda : "sendtxrcncl" in self.nodes[0].getpeerinfo()[-1]...` to something like `wait_until(lambda : peerinfo = self.nodes[0].getpeerinfo(); return len(peerinfo) > 0 && "sendtxrcncl" in peerinfo[-1]...`
02:18 < vasild> this would fix it if the problem is that this wait runs too early before anybody has connected, but if the problem is elsewhere it will probably timeout after 60 secs
02:29 < gleb07122> I think your explanation helps, thank you!
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02:49 < vasild> yw :)
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07:19 < fanquake>  * [new tag]             v23.1rc1 -> v23.1rc1
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07:30 < luke-jr> _aj_: sounds reasonable
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10:44 < sugarpuff> @sipa "If you want to cancel a transaction, you can pre-sign a double-spend of it." <- Does that work now? Is it enforced by all miners? If so this is the first time I'm hearing of it, and I bet it's the first time most people are hearing about it because I've never seen it implemented in any wallet, and I've never seen it mentioned in any article. Seems important.
10:45 < sugarpuff> @sipa "transactions can randomly become invalid if they're mined close to their expiration." <- So what? Isn't this true of regular transactions too? Couldn't they be re-org'd out and not appear in the re-org'd block?
10:45 < sipa> @sugarpuff That has always worked.
10:45 < sipa> Since opt-in RBF.
10:46 < sugarpuff> sipa: Why does no wallet support it?? Why is it never mentioned in any article on stuck transactions??
10:46 < sipa> Usually the way to unstuck a transaction is to make it go through, not cancel it.
10:46 < sipa> Through either RBF or CPFP.
10:47 < sugarpuff> I understand this, I even wrote a blog post on it way back in March 2016: https://fixingtao.com/2016/03/bitcoin-keep-calm-and-rbfcpfp-on/ ;;;; but it doesn't fully solve the problem
10:48 < sugarpuff> the subsequent RBF txn might not go through either, and someone might decide they don't want to pay higher fees, or CPFP might not be supported
10:48 < sugarpuff> Saying "RBF/CPFP is the only way to fix this" also creates an arms race in fees
10:48 < sugarpuff> unnecessarily inflating them when someone might decide they'd prefer to cancel and try again at a later date
10:49 < sipa> Right now there is no reason to assume a reorged transaction wouldn't end up accepted in the other chain too (assuming it wasn't double spent), because valid transactions always remain valid.
10:50 < sipa> The complexity of reasoning about mempool transactions and recently confirmed ones is far worse for everybody is transactions can revert to being invalid.
10:51 < sugarpuff> only if they're assuming 1-conf is something to be relied upon
10:51 < sugarpuff> and again, normal transactions can be not included in a re-org'd block, right?
10:51 < sipa> reorgs of more than 1 deep are also a problem
10:51 < sugarpuff> this is a problem for regular txns too, right? they can not appear in a re-org'd block in certain situations, true?
10:52 < sipa> and that's not the only issue .. e.g. do you relay a transaction close to its expiration, because our DoS protection relies on the assumption that something relayed is eligible for confirmation, and thus pays a nontrivial fee
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10:53 < sugarpuff> sure, relay something unless it's expired. that might even reduce pressure on DoS, right? since fewer transactions would be relayed, theoretically
10:53 < sipa> this gets even worse when taking cpfp and other dependencies into account... as now you need transitive reasoning as children may become invalid as their unconfirmed parent expires
10:54 < sipa> The same issues exist around mempool replacement... a transaction close to expiration is unlikely to be mined, and should therefore probably not be considered for replacing another transaction
10:54 < sipa> but where do you out the threshold
10:55 < sugarpuff> what about this question: "they can not appear in a re-org'd block in certain situations, true?"  (referring to normal txns)
10:55 < sugarpuff> ("normal" i.e. without expiry)
10:55 < sipa> What are "they" ?
10:56 < sugarpuff> today's txns without expiry
10:56 < sugarpuff> today's txns without expiry built into them
10:57 < sipa> Well, yes, they could be double-spent, or the fee market after the reorg could be so radically different that miners don't pick it up.
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10:57 < sugarpuff> ok, so the concern you brought up earlier, of txns not being included in re-org'd blocks due to close expiry, also applies to today's non-expiring txns...
10:59 < sipa> I don't think that's comparable.
10:59 < sugarpuff> why not?
10:59 < sipa> Sure, there is no guarantee that a tx after a reorg still makes it in.
10:59 < sipa> But there is a big difference between no guarantee, and a prohibition.
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11:00 < sugarpuff> but that is the entire point of adding an expiry - is to give users a guarantee
11:00 < sugarpuff> they will be relieved to know that their bitcoins will be back by a certain time, or spent
11:00 < sugarpuff> right now they will be panicking
11:00 < sipa> It cuts both ways. I don't think this helps.
11:01 < sugarpuff> i honestly don't see the downside
11:01 < sipa> With expiry it's also possible that in a reorg the timestamps are lower, and thus an expired transaction becomes valid again.
11:02 < sugarpuff> but what is the margin on this? like less than 10 min right?
11:02 < sipa> To me, monotonicity of tx validity is such a fundamental principle underlying bitcoin, that I'd need a very good reason to even consider acking it.
11:02 < sugarpuff> compare to the current situation: a margin or *days* not knowing whether or not your txn will be confirmed
11:03 < sipa> And I don't think it fixes anything
11:03 < sugarpuff> how does being given a guarantee by which time your txn will be spent or returned not fix anything? How is not knowing what happens to your coins  for *weeks* a good thing?
11:04 < sipa> You can fee bump it.
11:04 < sipa> Many wallets today support that.
11:04 < sugarpuff> but what if the fees are like $100???
11:04 < sugarpuff> or more??
11:05 < sugarpuff> what if you bought a toy for $20, and the fees are $200???
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11:06 < sipa> If the tx drops out of your mempool, you can abandon it and spend the funds again later.
11:06 < sipa> If the current fee market is so much higher than what you paid, there's no reason to assume your transaction will be included.
11:08 < sugarpuff> so you decide to "spend the  funds again later", and wait for them to return, and make decisions on the assumption that you'll be able to spend them later (whatever those decisions might be, who knows), and then after 10 days your txn confirms and your funds are gone. Now what?
11:08 < sugarpuff> How is that a good user experience?
11:08 < sugarpuff> If the txn had an expiry you could reason about this situation. But it doesn't
11:09 < sugarpuff> This has to do with hard forks doesn't it?
11:10 < sugarpuff> is adding an expiry a hard fork?
11:10 < sipa> You can sign an RBF with higher feerate to send back to yourself too. It doesn't even need to match the current market feerate at the time of spending, just beat the transaction being replaced.
11:10 < sipa> Either neither makes it in, or the replacement makes it in.
11:11 < sipa> No, that can easily be done with a softfork
11:12 < sugarpuff> but the RBF txn isn't guaranteed to go through, and the fees might be so high that you decide you don't want to pay them. so you end up deciding to just not deal with it, and not know the fate of your txn. This is frustrating to both businesses and customers and users. IMO, it should be fixed and can be easily fixed with an expiry. I'm glad to hear it's not a hard fork. even the base unit of the Internet (packets) have a 
11:12 < sugarpuff> TTL
11:13 < sugarpuff> DNS records have a TTL... txns should too
11:14 < sipa> Sorry, I don't find this a convincing argument
11:14 < sugarpuff> ok, well, maybe when enough people complain you'll change your mind. i tried *shrug*
11:15 < sipa> You don't need to convince me, thankfully.
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11:24 < sugarpuff> sipa: oh, one more thing, sorry I didn't realize this. You keep saying that RBF is the solution to this, but even that isn't completely true AFAIK since RBF isn't enabled by default on txns, right? So for a large number of users they literally have zero recourse right now
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15:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #26467: bumpfee: Allow the user to choose which output is change (master...bumpfee-choose-change-txout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26467
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19:15 < PaperSword> When using ParseUInt64 does the function just return false when the input string value overflows?
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21:08 < PaperSword> Does the vertical separator man that parameter can be called be either name? /src/rpc/blockchain.cpp {"verbosity|verbose", RPCArg::Type::NUM, RPCArg::Default
21:08 < PaperSword> mean*
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 08 00:00:10 2022