--- Log opened Wed Dec 07 00:00:38 2022
00:11 < vasild> If PR1 introducing some feature gets merged seemingly without controversy and shortly afterwards PR2 attempts to revert PR1 and PR2 turns out to be strongly controversal with many strong ACKs and NACKs, then I think it follows that PR1 would have been controversal too if the people ACKings the reversal were aware of it and its implications. Could that be a reason to merge the reversal PR2 even 
00:11 < vasild> though it is controversal? (I am not taking side in the fullrbf debate)
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01:00 < josie[m]> vasild: "then I think it follows that PR1 would have been controversal too if the people ACKings the reversal were aware of it and its implications" i dont think this is necessarily always true. it may apply to some cases but not enough to prescribe as a general rule. better to treat PRs on a case by case basis, imo
01:01 < vasild> josie[m]: yeah, I agree
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01:29 < bitcoinerrorlog> In the case of RBF topics, I think it's fair to say they have always been controversial. In the case of mempoolfullrbf, I think it is fair to say there was controversy before v24 actually shipped, evidenced by quite a few mailing list posts, the original version of my PR by Suhas, etc. The current debate is made more complicated by uncertainty around what is procedure, what the actual benefit of mempoolfullrbf might 
01:29 < bitcoinerrorlog> n/whether it is okay to break the user space.
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01:40 < fanquake> To github.com:bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs.git
01:40 < fanquake>  * [new tag]         v24.0.1 -> v24.0.1
01:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #26651: test: Avoid intermittent timeout in feature_assumevalid.py (master...2212-test-fix-assumevalid-🌞) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26651
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03:52 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dergoegge closed pull request #26590: net, refactor: Kill proxy globals (master...2022-11-socks5-refactor) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26590
03:55 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dergoegge closed pull request #26583: net: Make CNode message process queue private (master...2022-11-connman-pollmessage) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26583
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06:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/272fb0a5cf2c...7d515600034b
06:54 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 82e272a Ryan Ofsky: refactor: Move src/interfaces/*.cpp files to libbitcoin_common.a
06:54 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dd6e8bd fanquake: build: remove BOOST_CPPFLAGS from libbitcoin_util
06:54 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b19c412 Ryan Ofsky: refactor: Rename ambiguous interfaces::MakeHandler functions
06:54 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #26298: refactor: Move src/interfaces/*.cpp files to libbitcoin_common.a (master...pr/intclean) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26298
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08:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/7d515600034b...9052d869c967
08:35 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6fb102c Randall Naar: test: Changed small_txpuzzle_randfee to return the virtual size instead of...
08:35 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9052d86 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#26517: test: Changed small_txpuzzle_randfee to retur...
08:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #26517: test: Changed small_txpuzzle_randfee to return the virtual size instead of the transaction hex for feerate calculation. (master...use-vsize-for-fee-tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26517
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09:12 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #26653: test, init: perturb file to ensure failure instead of only deleting them (master...2022-12-stress-test-perturbing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26653
09:20 < sdaftuar> glozow: i was just looking at your comment in #26451 about the mining-on-a-mempool-cluster code in #26152, which i just took a look at.
09:21 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26451 | Enforce incentive compatibility for all RBF replacements by sdaftuar · Pull Request #26451 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
09:21 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26152 | Bump unconfirmed ancestor transactions to target feerate by Xekyo · Pull Request #26152 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
09:21 < sdaftuar> glozow: am i correct in understanding that the CalculateCluster function could pull in the whole mempool, and isn't constrained by ancestor/descendant limits?
09:22 < sdaftuar> (that's my read of what connectedness means, so i want to check to see if i might have misunderstood)
09:24 < sdaftuar> Murch: ^ you may know the answer to this as well?
09:27 < glozow> sdaftuar: yes correct, that is possible
09:30 < sdaftuar> thank you!
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09:37 < glozow> (so yeah, not really acceptable if calling from p2p)
09:38 < glozow> it should be very easy to implement a stopping point based on number of entries visited for example. but if we need an answer...
09:43 < sdaftuar> glozow: i was thinking that perhaps we could just look at the direct conflicts + ancestors. that has the benefit of the RBF reasoning being "local", in the sense that unrelated transactions are excluded from the logic (which seems better for reasoning), and also limits computational complexity
09:44 < sdaftuar> however that is still potentially a lot of transactions (roughly 2500 i think, with the 100-reaplcement rule in effect)
09:44 < sdaftuar> also, you might want to consider putting in some kind of similar limit for the wallet
09:45 < sdaftuar> but i haven't reviewed the PR so can't really comment, just seems worrisome on its face
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10:02 < glozow> agree a limit makes sense for wallet-only as well yes
10:02 < glozow> My initial reaction is that limiting to direct conflicts + ancestors leaves quite a bit of room for underestimation, as I tend to think of these things as "can somebody pin." Improving the heuristic even if still perfect seems worthwhile given the current Rule #2 has little impact on "can somebody pin" anyway.
10:02 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2 | Long-term, safe, store-of-value · Issue #2 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10:02 < glozow> still imperfect*
10:21 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] john-moffett opened pull request #26654: util: Show descriptive error messages when FileCommit fails (master...2022_12_BetterSystemErrorLogging) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26654
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11:50 < Murch> glozow: We chatted a bunch about this today at lunch. I think that if we considered all ancestors and only our own other relatives for each UTXO, we would only be prone to overestimating bump fees by essentially not relying on bumping by foreign descendants of our ancestry.
11:57 < sdaftuar> glozow: er i misspoke when i said "direct conflicts and ancestors". what i was thinking in my head was "all conflicts and their ancestors"
11:58 < sdaftuar> glozow: but not sure i follow what you mean by leaving room for underestimation, can you clarify?
11:59 < sdaftuar> i think that underestimating the mining scores of what is in the mempool (eg because we exclude parts of the transaction graph which might make those conflicting transactions actually have a higher score) 
12:00 < sdaftuar> results in less "pinning" because new transactions don't need to pay as much as they really should
12:00 < sdaftuar> that's an incentive compatibility issue, though -- but maybe a small isssue in practice
12:01 < sdaftuar> where it gets murkier is exactly what comparison we do. in the world where we use a mini-miner on a transaction subgraph, is the right calculation to ensure that the mining score of the new transaction is strictly better than that of all the to-be-replaced transactions? or do we quantify things in some more precise way?
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15:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9052d869c967...bbfcbcfa0c10
15:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a27a445 willcl-ark: refactor: Sub-folder bash completions
15:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7075848 willcl-ark: script: Add fish completions
15:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ccba4fe willcl-ark: doc: Add completion subdir to contrib/README.md
15:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #24611: Add fish completions (master...fish_completions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24611
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15:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bbfcbcfa0c10...a653f4bb1f06
15:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 852891f brunoerg: refactor, wallet: use optional for `label` in `ListTransactions`
15:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 722e9a4 brunoerg: wallet, rpc: add `label` to `listsinceblock`
15:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fe488b4 brunoerg: test: add coverage for `label` in `listsinceblock`
15:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #25934: wallet, rpc: add `label` to `listsinceblock` (master...2022-08-add-label-listsinceblock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25934
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17:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #26656: tests: Improve runtime of some tests when `--enable-debug` (master...faster-test-runner-when-debug) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26656
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19:44 < ariard> bitcoinerrorlog: on the actual benefit of mempoolfullrbf, abstraction made of the coinjoin/ln DoS that could be solved under a new replacement regime (e.g spent nversion-based signaling) there is the use-case of non-signaling replacement of external transactions by a supporting wallet as exposed here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26438#issuecomment-1304370679
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 08 00:00:39 2022