--- Log opened Thu Dec 08 00:00:39 2022
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01:49 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 7 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a653f4bb1f06...1801d8c3c900
01:49 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c75e3d2 Andrew Toth: rest: reduce LOCK(cs_main) scope in rest_block
01:49 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7d253c9 Andrew Toth: zmq: remove LOCK(cs_main) from NotifyBlock
01:49 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f00808e Andrew Toth: rpc: reduce LOCK(cs_main) scope in GetBlockChecked and getblock
01:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #26308: rpc/rest/zmq: reduce LOCK(cs_main) scope: ~6 times as many requests per second (master...no-lock-for-read-block) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26308
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02:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] aureleoules opened pull request #26658: test: Fix backwards compatibility intermittent failure (master...2022-12-fix-backwards-compat-failure) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26658
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02:24 < glozow> sdaftuar: Murch: ah okay, re: "room for underestimation" I was thinking of the basic case where the direct conflicts are CPFP'd by their descendants when I originally read your message. And there's the "low feerate ancestor, but actually they have another child bumping them" case that we've talked about.
02:24 < glozow> I agree understimating the original transactions usually means less pinning, but it might make the "attacker replaces your ACP tx with something with a lower miner score, i.e. delays your tx" case worse. Or even "I made an RBF bringing in new unconfirmed outputs, e.g. to CPFP another thing, but my wallet (like most wallets, including Core) doesn't really handle unconfirmed UTXOs properly and now i've accidentally made my transactions confirm 
02:24 < glozow> even later."
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02:33 < glozow> Would a more precise quantity be something like "the replacement miner score has to be X% higher" ?
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04:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] aureleoules closed pull request #25183: rpc: Filter inputs by type during CoinSelection  (master...2022-05-witness-only-fundrawtransaction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25183
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05:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #26659: [23.x] bump version to v23.1 (23.x...23_1_final) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26659
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07:46 < sdaftuar> glozow: got it, thanks for clarifying, that makes sense.
07:47 < sdaftuar> so in that vein, my PR would definitely prevent either of those concerns, unless i've overlooked something.
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11:00 < laanwj> #startmeeting
11:00 <@core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Dec  8 19:00:26 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
11:00 <@core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
11:00 < achow101> hi
11:00 < instagibbs> hi
11:00 < josie[m]> hi
11:00 < CoinForensics> hi
11:00 < laanwj> hi, welcome to the weekly bitcoin-core-dev meeting… this is the first time doing this via matrix, so i hope it's working
11:01 < brunoerg> hi
11:01 < ariard> hi
11:01 < hebasto> hi
11:01 < halosghost> laanwj: (seems to be ☺)
11:01 < laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard b10c BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd
11:01 < laanwj> phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
11:01 < kanzure> hi
11:01 < LarryRuane> hi
11:01 < _aj_> hi
11:01 < furszy> hi
11:02 < laanwj> it doesn't look like any topics have been proposed in advance through #proposedmeetingtopic
11:02 < laanwj> any last minute ones?
11:02 < _aj_> laanwj: i did one the other week
11:02 < jonatack1> hi
11:02 < instagibbs> thought I did too one sec
11:02 < kanzure> there may have been one or two days of gnusha logbot being offline
11:02 < kanzure> apologies
11:03 < achow101> There was one from last week that got punted
11:03 < instagibbs> #26398 revisiting discussion to see path forward if any
11:03 < kanzure> (usually it's a re-connect issue and i don't notice until someone pings me)
11:03 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26398 | Replace MIN_STANDARD_TX_NONWITNESS_SIZE to preclude 64 non-witness bytes only by instagibbs · Pull Request #26398 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:03 < laanwj> _aj_: can you please repeat it? or someone else? i don't have logs or very good search functionality so was relying on kanzure
11:03 < _aj_> #proposedmeetingtopic concept/wip/review/rfm project board (#26556)
11:03 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26556 | [meta] Distinguish concept/wip/review/rfm for active/high-priority PRs? · Issue #26556 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:03 < laanwj> thanks
11:04 < laanwj> let's start with high priority for review
11:04 < laanwj> #topic High priority for review
11:04 <@core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
11:04 < laanwj> 7 blockers, 3 chasing conept in https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/1/views/1
11:05 < laanwj> anything to add/remove?
11:07 < laanwj> if not, let's move to aj's topic
11:07 < fjahr> hi
11:08 < laanwj> #topic oncept/wip/review/rfm project board  (aj)
11:08 <@core-meetingbot> topic: oncept/wip/review/rfm project board  (aj)
11:09 < _aj_> so pretty much what's in the issue (#26556) -- i'd find it helpful to be able to tell whether people are looking for general feedback on prs, or if they're in a "final"-ish state where they're just looking for bugs and acks
11:09 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26556 | [meta] Distinguish concept/wip/review/rfm for active/high-priority PRs? · Issue #26556 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:10 < _aj_> and it seems like you can do that pretty nicely with the way the modern project boards work; so i wonder if other people would be interested in trying something like that out
11:11 < josie[m]> i would definitely be interested in trying that out.
11:12 < instagibbs> getting a couple volunteers to religiously use it is probably good next step
11:12 < lightlike> who would make the judgement calls to move things between the categories?
11:13 < laanwj> no objections from me, i don't see why there would be, though we've had similar initiatives in the past and it's not entirely clear to me it wlil be maintained actively (it's why we have only specific boards for specific projects someone has an interest in)
11:13 < _aj_> i was thinking that mostly PR authors could do that (if they're members of the org, anyway)
11:13 < josie[m]> lightlike: authors, i would think. but other reviewers could likely recommend that something move if they feel it needs to
11:15 < josie[m]> im not sure if this is the envisioned use, but i would love to use this for facilitating more design review before opening a concrete implementation
11:16 < fjahr> Can issues also get on the board or only PRs?
11:17 < fjahr> If issues are possible as well then that should work to do that as well with a board
11:17 < achow101> _aj_: would you be willing to setup the project views, etc.?
11:17 < _aj_> the categories (seeking concept ack / initial review / detailed review / ready for merge) seem more applicable to PRs than issues; but technically issues would work too
11:17 < _aj_> achow101: sure
11:18 < sipa> hi
11:18 < fjahr> Maybe there could be a high prio brainstorming column, but not sure if that is a good idea...
11:19 < lightlike> this removes the "blocker" notion that is currently still part of the high-prio board, right? So it'll be ok to have things as high-prio even if they don't block any future work.
11:19 < achow101> https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/5 is setup so any frequent contributors can write
11:20 < ariard> on the "concept ack" i think it could be understood in a larger meaning, in the sense seeking concept ack beyond the Core project boundaries, especially for things like mempool policy rules
11:20 < _aj_> lightlike: i'm roughly thinking of it as "this is the pr i'm most actively working on"
11:22 < fjahr> _aj_ +1 I think most people interpret it as "blocking me from focussing on the next big thing, I want to get this done soon"
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11:24 < laanwj> so it looks like no one has any objections, let's do it
11:24 < lightlike> yes, seems like a good idea to try this out
11:24 < fanquake> is the main point of the new effort mostly just increased visibility?
11:25 < fanquake> obviously for the last few years, a PRs existence in the high prio board has made no material difference to how much (extra) review it actually gets
11:26 < laanwj> that's hard to measure :)
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11:26 < lightlike> I wouldn't agree, several people have told me that they sometimes use the board to find things to review. I definitely have as well.
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11:27 < jonatack1> i used the board these past few years.
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11:27 < fanquake> heh. mostly judging based on the duration that PRs remain in the board / get dropped out. Personally I have a number that receive 0 attention despite being in the board. Obviously dependant on the change as well.
11:28 < fanquake> just trying to get a better understanding of the hopeful outcome. If it leads to increased focus / throughput for certain projects, that’d be great
11:29 < laanwj> yeah…it's just very hard to drum up (review) attention for things it's been always that way, but if people get involved in this new project board it might help a bit
11:30 < fjahr> I have used the board as well. I think the high prios are often much more complex than the average PR and I feel like in some cases it has helped my PRs to be on there.
11:30 < fanquake> Ultimately the problem is still very limited number of reviewers, with limited time. However if we can help them prioritise somehow, that is also useful
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11:31 < fanquake> and yes, given that high priority changes are generally complex, or harder to review, that constraints the group of reviewers even further
11:31 < jonatack1> no opinion on adding a board, other than try and see, i guess. yes, the high prio board sometimes has PRs that are more difficult, longer or critical to review, which might be intimidating
11:32 < jonatack1> fanquake: right
11:32 < fanquake> In any case. Let’s give it a go
11:33 < _aj_> fanquake: i get confused by: which PRs people actually care about when they have many open; whether PRs are looking for broad review or just want to get ACKs to get merged; whether it's worth putting "easy" things on high-pri, or when it's worth pinging maintainers/reviewers to look at things; i'm hoping some of those might be improved
11:36 < fanquake> _aj_: yea, that sounds worthwhile. I have recently been trying to enact that in some way, by marking more PRs as drafts, to at least try and push review attention to dependant PRs etc. More triage / organisation will likely also help there
11:38 < jonatack1> would it be helpful to add a link to the board(s) when joining this irc channel, a la "please see *url(s)* for review"
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11:40 < laanwj> a good idea but i don't think the topic can be any longer
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11:43 < laanwj> it's always a good question, how to get attention to something that is supposed to give attention, but could at least add a link to the appropriate documents ni the repo like REVIEWING.md
11:43 < laanwj> any other topics?
11:44 < lightlike> instagibbs suggested one above
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11:44 < laanwj> #topic Replace MIN_STANDARD_TX_NONWITNESS_SIZE to preclude 64 non-witness bytes only (instagibbs)
11:44 <@core-meetingbot> topic: Replace MIN_STANDARD_TX_NONWITNESS_SIZE to preclude 64 non-witness bytes only (instagibbs)
11:46 < instagibbs> I think all opinions have been given on the topic, whether restricting to <65 bytes or restricting 64 bytes exactly, I have preferences, but wondering what the path forward is
11:46 < instagibbs> _aj_, feelings on that?
11:48 < _aj_> nothing to add to what's already in the pr?
11:48 < instagibbs> Ok, so there's mild(?) disagreement on implemetnation cost, and I'm not sure what goes from here
11:48 < achow101> are there competing prs or is it just disagreement in one?
11:48 < instagibbs> #26265 was the alternative
11:48 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26265 | POLICY: Relax MIN_STANDARD_TX_NONWITNESS_SIZE to 65 non-witness bytes by instagibbs · Pull Request #26265 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
11:49 < instagibbs> most people(including me) seem to prefer the new one, but in my case it's a mild preference, and I'd rather something be done
11:50 < instagibbs> vs sit on two possibilities with no new data to be had
11:52 < instagibbs> if there's nothing to be done but languish, I guess that happens but I'd rather now. achow101 maybe take a look and give some sage advice?
11:52 < achow101> I don't see any NACKs
11:53 < instagibbs> _aj_, I guess I'm formally asking for a nack or I'll ask for merge, that ends the topic 
11:53 < instagibbs> ?
11:53 < instagibbs> thanks
11:54 < _aj_> instagibbs: i don't really see how adding a nack is productive, but sure
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11:55 < instagibbs> ok we can take this offline 
11:55 < achow101> it's just not clear to my how strong the disagreement is
11:55 < instagibbs> ^
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11:57 < instagibbs> I see lots of text that is opposing the underlying idea, I take it as an unknown strength nack
11:58 < instagibbs> 2 minutes if anyone wants to speak on anythign else
11:58 < _aj_> i guess i don't really think encouraging "strong" disagreement is really healthy
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12:00 < jonatack1> i tend to prefer 26265 to not special-case, i think
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12:02 < laanwj> it's time to wrap up the meeting
12:02 < instagibbs> ok, I'll just put some thoughts down on the PR on what I think the state is
12:02 < laanwj> we can continue this after, or pick up the topic again next week
12:04 < laanwj> #endmeeting
12:04 <@core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
12:04 <@core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Dec  8 20:04:51 2022 UTC.  
12:04 <@core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-12-08-19.00.moin.txt
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12:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] furszy opened pull request #26668: wallet: if only have one output type, don't perform "mixed" coin selection (master...2022_wallet_double_coin_selection) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26668
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12:14 < achow101> instagibbs, _aj_: What does a standard tx <64 bytes even look like?
12:14 < instagibbs> non-batched burn to dust, mostly
12:15 < achow101> the absolute minimum is 60 bytes, making the spk a single OP_RETURN makes that 61, but an empty scriptSig is still nonstandard
12:15 < instagibbs> I just disagree that having an indirect restriction makes things easier for anyone
12:15 < instagibbs> native segwit spend f.e.
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12:16 < achow101> yes, but that puts the size well above 64
12:16 < instagibbs> nonwitness size*
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12:17 < achow101> oh, the check ignores witness size entirely?
12:17 < achow101> not even doing vbytes stuff?
12:17 < instagibbs> it's stripped serialization, making sure it doesn't "look like" an inner node of the merkle tree
12:18 < achow101> I see
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12:43 < _aj_> achow101: (afaics core api's only let you create an op_return with non-empty data, so you end up with at least OP_RETURN PUSH["x"] for 3 additional bytes rather than just once, and a minimum size of 63B)
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 09 00:00:40 2022