--- Log opened Thu May 02 00:00:43 2024
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00:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/59b773f42a67...9d1a286f20b8
00:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2257404 Sjors Provoost: doc: add LLVM instruction for macOS < 13
00:29 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9d1a286 merge-script: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#29934: doc: add LLVM instruction for macOS < 13
00:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #29934: doc: add LLVM instruction for macOS  13 (master...2024/04/clang-14-osx-old) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29934
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04:04 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Cryptocurrencei opened pull request #30021: Rename CONTRIBUTING.md to CONTRIBUTING.cryptocurrency.md (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30021
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04:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #30021: Rename CONTRIBUTING.md to CONTRIBUTING.cryptocurrency.md (master...patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30021
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04:38 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #30022: releases: use LLVM 18 for macOS (master...macos_llvm_18_releases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30022
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05:05 < darosior> Again another case of someone's node stalling after upgrading to 27.0: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/q/122853/101498.
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05:08 < sipa> darosior: a 702-block long invalid chain, hardware failure?
05:09 < darosior> Maybe, but he's running it at Hetzner so that seemed unlikely to me
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05:09 < darosior> (didn't investigate, i'm just sharing because Murch[m] mentioned a number of such occurrences)
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06:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9d1a286f20b8...3d28725134df
06:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa9abf9 MarcoFalke: refactor: Avoid unused-variable warning in init.cpp
06:09 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3d28725 merge-script: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#29968: refactor: Avoid unused-variable warning in in...
06:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #29968: refactor: Avoid unused-variable warning in init.cpp (master...2404-init-) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29968
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06:50 < laanwj> was i so unclear re #30005... why are people always misinterpreting what i'm trying to do
06:50 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/30005 | [PoC, nomerge] IPv6 PCP pinhole test by laanwj · Pull Request #30005 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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06:53 < gmaxwell> laanwj: I understood it the way you intended it.
06:54 < laanwj> gmaxwellphew :)
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06:54 < gmaxwell> I think maybe Sjors' suggestion that it might be helpful to keep around might have added confusion.
06:56 < fanquake> yea, I don't think that's a good idea at all
06:56 < fanquake> laanwj: sorry for misunderstanding
06:56 < laanwj> that's fine i wasn't a great fan of that idea either, but it seems a bad reason to nack he whole thing
06:57 < laanwj> it's ok, i misunderstood you too apparently
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06:58 < fanquake> I would be a great fan of anything that'd let us completely remove our usage of miniupnpc and libnatpmp
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06:58 < fanquake> the upstream code is basically a unmaintained / untested c fire, with 1 sporadically apearing dev
06:58 < laanwj> right, a very similar thing could replace libnatpmp for ipv4, i'm just focusing on ipv6 first
06:59 < gmaxwell> I hear there are some extra devs from libxz who are out of a project to work on now...
06:59 < fanquake> If anyone suggested newly integrating either of those into our codebase today, we'd never ship it
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06:59 < gmaxwell> the pmp protocol is so trivial -- I don't recall why a library was used. it's basically "send a struct out over udp"
07:00 < achow101> #startmeeting
07:00 < achow101> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard aureleoules b10c BlueMatt brunoerg cfields darosior dergoegge dongcarl fanquake fjahr furszy gleb glozow hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jonatack josibake kallewoof kanzure kouloumos kvaciral laanwj LarryRuane lightlike luke-jr MacroFake Murch phantomcircuit pinheadmz promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar S3RK stickies-v sipa theStack TheCharlatan vasild
07:00 < hebasto> hi
07:00 < josie> hi
07:00 < TheCharlatan> hi
07:00 < virtu> hi
07:00 < glozow> hi
07:00 < sipa> hi
07:00 < brunoerg> hi
07:00 < ajonas> Hi
07:00 < Chris_Stewart_5> hi
07:00 < pinheadmz> hi
07:00 < laanwj> hi
07:01 < sdaftuar> oh hi
07:01 < vasild> hi
07:01 < achow101> There are 2 preproposed meeting topics this week. Any last minute ones to add?
07:01 < willcl-ark> Hi
07:01 < stickies-v> hi
07:01 < theStack> hi
07:01 -!- Wronsk [~Wronsk@cust-west-par-46-193-0-235.cust.wifirst.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
07:01 < achow101> #topic package relay updates (glozow)
07:01 < Murch[m]> Hi
07:01 < pinheadmz> oh, hi mark
07:01 < glozow> #28970 was merged (yay!) and a followup is open: #30012
07:01 < glozow> #30000 is the next PR in the "p2p track" though relatively small. I'm currently working on addressing some feedback on it. The next one will be TxDownloadManager which I am almost done rebasing.
07:01 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28970 | p2p: opportunistically accept 1-parent-1-child packages by glozow · Pull Request #28970 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:02 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/30012 | opportunistic 1p1c followups by glozow · Pull Request #30012 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:02 < glozow> The priority PR is #28984
07:02 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/30000 | p2p: index TxOrphanage by wtxid, allow entries with same txid by glozow · Pull Request #30000 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:02 < lightlike> Hi
07:02 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28984 | Cluster size 2 package rbf by instagibbs · Pull Request #28984 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:02 < abubakarsadiq> hi
07:02 < glozow> (that should go in the high prio for review board)
07:02 < glozow> instagibbs posted yesterday about a WG to review the PR together, for those who missed the message
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07:02 < instagibbs> 👋
07:03 < achow101> added 28984 to the board
07:03 < glozow> That's all from me
07:03 < glozow> achow101: thanks!
07:03 < achow101> #topic cluster mempool updates (sdaftuar)
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07:04 < sdaftuar> since last week, i was able to rebase PR #28676, which i did and then eventually got CI happy (nice tests everyone).  since then, it needs to be rebased again, which i'm working on
07:04 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28676 | [WIP] Cluster mempool implementation by sdaftuar · Pull Request #28676 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:05 < sdaftuar> i was also able to get a draft reimplementation of mini-miner that makes sense post-cluster mempool -- figuring that out was one of my todo's but i don't think it will need to be part of the initial cluster mempool PR
07:06 < sdaftuar> hwoever, happy to share that with anyone who is interested (and can open a draft PR that builds on #28676)
07:06 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28676 | [WIP] Cluster mempool implementation by sdaftuar · Pull Request #28676 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:06 < sdaftuar> i also continue to poke sipa with a stick to get him to PR his cluster linearization code :)
07:06 < sdaftuar> that's it from me!
07:07 < sipa> as for my work, i'm back on working on a PR for low-level linearization code after figuring out enough about the idea i mentioned last week
07:07 < sipa> which will be not integrated into anything, but well tested on its own
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07:07 < glozow> nice!
07:08 < instagibbs> looking forward to it, ideally much more testable 
07:08 < b10c> hi
07:09 < achow101> #topic legacy wallet removal updates (achow101)
07:09 < dergoegge> hi
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07:09 < achow101> hasn't been much activity on this project, waiting for more review on #26606
07:09 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26606 | wallet: Implement independent BDB parser by achow101 · Pull Request #26606 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:10 < fjahr> hi
07:10 < josie> achow101: on my list to review, feel free to pester me if you dont get a review before next meeting
07:10 < achow101> josie: will pester :)
07:11 < achow101> #topic Ad-hoc high priority for review
07:11 < achow101> Anything to add or remove from https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/1/views/4
07:11 < dergoegge> (sipa: just in case you're not aware, CI failed on #29625)
07:11 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29625 | Several randomness improvements by sipa · Pull Request #29625 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
07:11 < sipa> dergoegge: oh, thanks!
07:12 < achow101> #topic moderation guidelines (achow101)
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07:13 < achow101> ajonas wrote some moderation guidelines as a place for us to start thinking about this topic. I've put them into a gist, if anyone has feedback: https://gist.github.com/achow101/9192ad26dc4ef08e9c899caeddc968ef
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07:14 < pinheadmz> for a test, i uploaded these guidelines to GPT and instructed it to evaluate some comments with either "OK" or "needs moderation" then fed it some comments from the datacarrier PR. The results were amazing, only one false positive
07:15 < darosior> pinheadmz: hah, neat
07:15 < glozow> pinheadmz: woah cool
07:15 < pinheadmz> i already have webhooks from the repo for telegram and IRC bots, i could send all comments to the bot to at least help flag incidents
07:15 < achow101> pinheadmz: you mean you agreed with all of it's decisions except for one?
07:15 < pinheadmz> https://chat.openai.com/share/3595a095-5918-4200-91e5-97d536899e51
07:16 < pinheadmz> achow101 correct, it flagged a long comment by Murch[m] as "needs moderation" which i disagreed with
07:16 < sipa> pinheadmz: does that mean that "you" are volunteering for the role of moderator?
07:16 < pinheadmz> sipa yes
07:16 < josie> ajonas: looks great on first read, only one that jumps out to me as potentially hard to reason about is "contains false statements" 
07:17 < ajonas> i think it'd be healthy to have more than 1 volunteer
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07:17 < glozow> can we volunteer other people?
07:17 < luke-jr> seems like some moderation outcomes could require context
07:17 < pinheadmz> luke-jr of course and just to be clear, I would only use GPT to get my attention, then use my brain to make decisions
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07:18 < achow101> if you have comments on the guidelines, please leave them as a comment on the gist
07:18 < glozow> fwiw I'm in favor of pinheadmz being one of the moderators!
07:19 < achow101> i'd like for us to discuss who to add as moderators in a week or two after the guidelines have had some review
07:19 < josie> +1 on pinheadmz, they've already been operating in a similar role with issue triage (and doing a fantastic job)
07:19 < glozow> my bad! sounds good
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07:20 < willcl-ark> I'd be happy to volunteer myself to help with that too if helpful
07:20 < pinheadmz> +1 for willcl-ark 
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07:20 < hebasto> +1 for willcl-ark 
07:20 < ajonas> josie: yes, I think it's directionally correct but suggestions welcome
07:21 < josie> +1 for willcl-ark (who is also doing a great job in the issue triaging role, which feels like it has some overlap with moderation)
07:21 < stickies-v> +1 for pinheadmz and willcl-ark , thank you
07:22 < achow101> #topic Knots use of the Bitcoin Core project on Transifex.com (hebasto)
07:22 < hebasto> hi
07:22 < hebasto> To translate the GUI, we use Transifex, both a website and command-line tools.
07:22 < hebasto> The history of recent events is as follow:
07:22 < hebasto> 2024-03-24 -- a new file 'knots-translation-26x' was added to the project bitcoin
07:22 < hebasto> There were no announcements or any preliminary discussions with people who are related to GUI translation.
07:22 < hebasto> I asked luke-jr on IRC the same day. His response was "yes, there's been some interest in translating the strings missing in Core too; bonus this could mean when those things get merged into Core, there's already a translation ready to go"
07:22 < hebasto> 2024-04-26 The file 'Bitcoin Knots 26.x' in project 'bitcoin' was updated with new content.
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07:23 < hebasto> People - Bitcoin Core translators - on Transifex started to complain: "If the bitcoin-knots ressources are supposed to belong the a forked project of bitcoin-core (bitcoin-knots), i would prefer a new project being setup here on Transifex, since its kinda hijacking the main bitcoin core project and binding translation effort from members who want to support the bitcoin core project from my impression."
07:23 < hebasto> I asked luke-jr on IRC to remove Knots resources from Transifex. Still no response from him.
07:23 < hebasto> That's it.
07:23 < hebasto> The question is should we allow to use the Bitcoin Core on Transifex.com by any other project?
07:23 < achow101> I agree that the knots translation should be separate from bitcoin core's
07:24 < sipa> I don't see why the Bitcoin Core transifex project should cater to translations of other projects.
07:24 < luke-jr> I received no such request, and the complaints sound like trolling
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07:24 < luke-jr> and the transifex project is not exclusively Bitcoin Core's to begin with
07:24 < achow101> I don't think it makes sense for us to support forks, even though there is likely to be significant overlap
07:25 < achow101> luke-jr: how so?
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07:25 < dergoegge> achow101: +1
07:25 < laanwj> i agree, please split off the transifex for different software, it's confusing for users and for us
07:25 < luke-jr> It's the same software, just different releases
07:26 < laanwj> if it's the same software you can just use our translations, no need to add a project :)
07:26 < luke-jr> it's just another resource, like any other release
07:26 < stickies-v> +1 for splitting off, our project should be just for Bitcoin Core, not forks
07:27 < luke-jr> Bitcoin Knots is part of the Bitcoin Core project anyway
07:27 < dergoegge> lol
07:27 < achow101> no it isn't
07:27 < josie> luke-jr: not its not?
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07:27 < achow101> we don't make releases for it. we don't review prs for it. it's not listed on bitcoincore.org
07:27 < luke-jr> yes we do
07:28 < sipa> luke-jr: *you* do, because it is your project
07:28 < lightlike> +1 to removing from transifex
07:28 < sdaftuar> why do we need luke to do anything? how do permissions work with transifex?
07:28 < glozow> +1,  I don't think we should do translations for Bitcoin Knots within Bitcoin Core transifex
07:28  * darosior blinks - thinks "no this is indeed real"
07:29 < hebasto> there are 4 admins: laanwj hebasto luke-jr and seone
07:29 < luke-jr> if you want to be trolls, you can make your own transifex project instead of trying to hijack this one; I didn't give laanwj access for that reason
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07:29 < achow101> luke-jr: how is this trolling?
07:29 < sdaftuar> hebasto: ah thank you for explaining
07:29 < luke-jr> achow101: there is zero reason to have separate projects
07:29 < achow101> I don't think anyone else has ever had the understanding that knots and core are part of the same project
07:29 < luke-jr> both Core and Knots benefit from using the same one
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07:30 < laanwj> it's just because the history of the transifex project is somewhat weird, it used to be owned by a person. we don't even know, i think Warren Togami transferred it to me at some point
07:31 < laanwj> (well not him, he knows someone there)
07:31 < luke-jr> no, I gave you access
07:32 < sdaftuar> luke-jr: frankly i think your position is absurd
07:32 < hebasto> ah, and wtogami is also a transifex maintainer
07:32 < sipa> I think it's been abundantly clear to anyone that the bitcoin project on transfex is bitcoin core's translation - it mentions that software in the description, and links to the bitcoincore.org website
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07:33 < sipa> And I don't see the benefit to Bitcoin Core of having the Knots translations be part of the same project.
07:33 < achow101> the benefit is only because knots merges in prs before they've been reviewed or finished, and includes several things that are unlikely to be merged into core. the benefit to knots is of course that you can reuse our translation files, but you should already be able to do that anyways
07:33 < pinheadmz> what do the bitcoin forks use ?
07:33 < luke-jr> sipa: having translations ready in advance of PRs being merged into Core
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07:34 < achow101> this seems like it would add an additional burden on translators as they would be prompted to translate strings that won't show up in Core, or may change in the future because the pr is unfinished, or have to translate multiple versions of essentially the same string
07:34 < sdaftuar> luke-jr: presumably that also wastes translator time when translation needs changed during PR review
07:34 < achow101> pinheadmz: their own transifex if they even bother with translations
07:34 < achow101> (or some other translation platform entirely)
07:35 < sipa> luke-jr: fair enough, that's a tiny advantage; but it also means wasting translator's time on changes that don't end up in Bitcoin Core in the same form, or never at all
07:35 < darosior> people who are actually doing the work have complained about this luke-jr, why should you insist on putting the burden on them for your own project while they explicitly don't consent?
07:36 < luke-jr> darosior: they're free to not do it, it's clearly marked as Knots
07:36 < sipa> Bitcoin Knots is clearly a different project, with different maintainer(s), different focus, different code; it's not Bitcoin Core's contributors/translators job to assist with that.
07:36 < hebasto> darosior: not about luke-jr but about knots resources to translate
07:36 < luke-jr> darosior: I haven't seen any such complaints, but I doubt it's many compared to number of people involved
07:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jasonandjay opened pull request #30023: doc: add dustThreshold explain of P2SH (master...dustThreshold-P2SH) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30023
07:37 < luke-jr> sipa: it's produced with the same development process/contributors as Core
07:37 < darosior> It's these complaints which sparked this discussion in the first place
07:37 < sipa> luke-jr: lol
07:37 < luke-jr> and Transifex/bitcoin is not Bitcoin Core's exclusively
07:37 < achow101> hebasto: were these complaints made in private? It doesn't seem like transifex has some kind of discussion area
07:37 < sdaftuar> i don't think the legitimacy of our project should be used to lend credibility to Bitcoin Knots
07:37 < sipa> sdaftuar: +1
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07:38 < Earnestly> darosior: Do you have any links to them?
07:38 < hebasto> transifex has internal messaging sysytem
07:38 < darosior> Earnestly: cf hebasto's comment above
07:38 < Earnestly> Oh, so they're not public?
07:38 < josie> luke-jr: you taking the position that core and knots are the same project is odd considering publicly ive seen you refer to them as separate projects 
07:38 < darosior> sdaftuar: +1
07:38 < hebasto> Earnestly: no
07:38 < achow101> luke-jr: when I go to the project, the description says "Bitcoin Core". The homepage link goes to bitcoincore.org. I don't see how that is not indicative that it is exclusively for Bitcoin Core
07:39 < achow101> the translation instructions go to our repo
07:39 < laanwj> yes...
07:39 < Earnestly> darosior: Mostly curious because this was prompted not by complaints but by hebasto noticing "a new file 'knots-translation-26x'" without mentioning complaints
07:39 < vasild> Well, I think that at this point it is obvious that luke-jr is at odds with others, will not change his mind and will not cooperate.
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07:40 < darosior> vasild: +1 this is not going anywhere
07:40 < Earnestly> vasild: To be fair, what cooporation has been offered?
07:40 < sdaftuar> based on this, i don't think luke should have admin rights over any aspect of our project, including the transifex site. i will let others weigh in on how best to achieve that.
07:40 < brunoerg> vasild: +1
07:41 < achow101> In any case, it seems like everyone here disagrees with luke and think the resource should be removed, so we should just do that
07:41 < vasild> Earnestly: by cooperate, I mean to remove the knots file from the translation site (I assume he added it there)
07:41 < Earnestly> So much for coorporation; do it our way or we'll just remove you
07:41 < luke-jr> sdaftuar: you are now attempting a hostile takeover of the Transifex project
07:41 < dergoegge> achow101: +1
07:41 < sdaftuar> sdaftuar: i have no admin rights there
07:41 < sdaftuar> (oops, i'm talkin gto myself!)
07:41 < laanwj> sdaftuari agree, luke-jr doesn't seem reasonable about it, even if everyone in the project wants it to change
07:42 < sdaftuar> luke-jr: i have no authority to remove you myself, but yes i'm expressing support to remove you, or suggesting you step down
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07:42 < achow101> Earnestly: I don't understand what you mean by "cooperate". Either it's there or it isn't, or do you have some third alternative in mind?
07:42 < Earnestly> achow101: Just leaving it alone, there's no evidence of harm
07:42 < achow101> also, in hebasto's opening statement "People - Bitcoin Core translators - on Transifex started to complain"
07:42 < Earnestly> Or create a new transifex project for bitcoin core specifically
07:43 < Earnestly> achow101: Yes, but it would be nice to have evidence
07:43 < sipa> Earnestly: we have one; that's the one we are talking about, obviously
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07:43 < sipa> it's ludicrous to suddenly assert that the transifex is also for Knots, or even that Core and Knots are the same project altogether.
07:43 < Earnestly> sipa: It's just called "bitcoin", I was suggesting creating a "bitcoin core" project
07:43 < achow101> Earnestly: other than luke's assertions, there's no indication that this transifex project is not Bitcoin Core's exclusively
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07:44 < sipa> Earnestly: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/
07:44 < josie> Earnestly: since knots was added recently (for the first time?) seems much easier to create a knots specific transifix project
07:44 < vasild> Earnestly: github's repo is also only "bitcoin": github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
07:44 < sipa> Earnestly: for historic reasons, that is the URL for the Bitcoin Core github project, and the same holds for Transfix
07:44 < stickies-v> +1 on removing the knots resource and luke-jr's admin rights if that's possible, this conversation is absurd
07:44 < sipa> *Transifex
07:45 < Earnestly> vasild: Sure, but it's called bitcoin core now, that was its historical name. It appears the transifex project similarly has a longer history than bitcoin core as it has come to be
07:46 < josie> Earnestly: knots aside, are you advocating that the transifex project is a catch all for *any* bitcoin software (e.g. btcd)
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07:46 < Earnestly> josie: No I think it should have its own project, operated and controlled by the same people
07:46 < sipa> let's please not get further in the rabbithole of discussing URLs, that's really a separate discussion
07:47 < Earnestly> josie: Which would avoid this entire situation
07:47 < achow101> anyways, I think we've answered hebasto's question.
07:47 < achow101> Any other topics to discuss?
07:47 < vasild> luke-jr: "sdaftuar: you are now attempting a hostile takeover of the Transifex project" -- when people cannot reach an agreement, what other options are there? The current situation can be viewed as a hostile hijack of the bitcoin core's translation by bitcoin knots
07:48 < Earnestly> vasild: (To be fair, this channel has been nothing but hostile to luke-jr for as long as I've seen it; perhaps warrented, but also means constantly defensive)
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07:48 < darosior> Earnestly: that's not fair.
07:48 < instagibbs> I've seen no assumptions of bad faith except by luke-jr 🤷
07:49 < luke-jr> josie: especially if they share most strings, I don't see why not
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07:49 < achow101> #endmeeting
07:49 < luke-jr> vasild: no, it cannot be. Bitcoin Core is welcome to continue using it.
07:49 < vasild> hijack, not takeover
07:50 < luke-jr> on another note, what's the current place for cmake dev?
07:51 < vasild> same as if https://github.com/qtumproject/qtum adds their translations file somehow (it is another fork of bitcoin core)
07:51 < glozow> There are 10ks of forks of bitcoin core, and many of them release software with similar code and probably similar strings to translate. That doesn't mean they should all be translated on the bitcoin core transifex...
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07:53 < Earnestly> Making a bitcoin core specific transifex project would solve all of these issues (surely you can migrate all of bitcoin to it as well?)
07:53 < luke-jr> Earnestly: there aren't any actual issues to begin with, tho
07:53 < achow101> transifex's interface is rather obtuse, I don't know if any such a migration would be possible without losing data
07:54 < achow101> (not an admin, so there may be other options availble to admins)
07:54 < vasild> jitsi meeting on cmake now at https://meet.jit.si/StrongCoalitionsMobilizeSpecifically
07:54 < Earnestly> luke-jr: I can see why they would disagree though, a lot of the old infrastructure was merged into what is now "bitcoin core", this seems like a loose end in the process
07:55 < Earnestly> luke-jr: I mean, would it be fair for any one of the bitcoin core maintainers to host their forks on it as well?
07:55 < luke-jr> Earnestly: there's no reason to have this hard break between Core and Knots to begin with
07:55 < Earnestly> And thus exclude forks outside of this
07:55 < luke-jr> Earnestly: ?
07:56 < lightlike> luke-jr: yes, there is. knots is a one-person project without a community, and, as a result zero public code review. In my opinion, it is a security disaster waiting to happen and no one should ever use it for anything involving actual funds. Of course people should use whatever they want, but bitcoin core should be in no associate itself with it or help it.
07:56 < Earnestly> luke-jr: What is the scope of bitcoin transifex if it can include both core and knots? Seems a bit odd
07:56 < luke-jr> lightlike: that's just false bigotry
07:56 < luke-jr> Earnestly: no reason not to include others as well, they all benefit
07:57 < Earnestly> Okay that's clearer then
07:57 < luke-jr> besides new strings, when people correct one, they correct them all etc
07:57 < luke-jr> had they been separate, various fixes I did recently like </ b> to </b> wouldn't get into Core
07:57 < Earnestly> Assuming a fork doesn't give new meaning to an option or so
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07:58 < luke-jr> Earnestly: even if it did, the description would be a different string anyway
07:58 < achow101> poking around in the settings of a different transifex org I do admin, it looks like orgs and projects can be renamed
07:58 < achow101> but of course that has a likelihood of breaking links
07:58 < luke-jr> I don't intend to rename this one
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07:59 < Earnestly> Anyway, this is clearer now. The transifex project is indeed welcome to any and all forks, so that translators from those might benefit core and everything else as byproduct
08:00 < Earnestly> glozow: If that answers your question about 10k forks, theoretically all of them can use it
08:00 < sipa> Earnestly: ... wat
08:00 < achow101> that's insane
08:00 < achow101> if for whatever reason people think that because of the name, then we should rename it
08:00 < sr_gi[m]> Earnestly: who has agreed on that? 
08:00 < Earnestly> Yeah it is a bit weird I agree
08:01 < Earnestly> sr_gi[m]: It's luke-jr's decision
08:01 < achow101> it's not his project
08:01 < Earnestly> Seems to be de facto
08:01 < sdaftuar> huh?
08:01 < sipa> huh?
08:01 < glozow> ???
08:01 < achow101> hebasto and laanwj are admins too
08:01 < Earnestly> But aren't able to do anything about this?
08:01 < sipa> Earnestly: yes they are
08:02 < achow101> no, I think hebasto was being polite and asking everyone before doing anything
08:02 < sr_gi[m]> Earnestly: Which he has not any rights to make on his own?
08:02 < sipa> we're trying to come to a friendly agreement by discussing things here
08:02 < sr_gi[m]> s/not/no/, s/any//
08:02 < Earnestly> sipa: Ah, I was under the impression that they could not rename it or remove things
08:03 < luke-jr> sipa: seems more like various are trying to bully me and perform a hostile takeover
08:03 < _aj_> https://explore.transifex.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/ has just had the references to "Bitcoin Core" removed
08:03 < sdaftuar> wth
08:04 < sipa> luke-jr: i'm sorry you feel that way, but that's just your point of view
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08:04 < Earnestly> luke-jr: I'm surprised that different transifex projects can't share translations, so to have a bitcoin core and a bitcoin knots as separate projects but still able to share a set difference of the translations
08:04 < achow101> _aj_: now it says "Bitcoin Core & Knots"
08:04 < achow101> that seems like a hostile takeover
08:04 < sipa> achow101: agreed
08:05 < kanzure> hi
08:05 < glozow> so they all have the same admin access, but the difference is that luke-jr will do things unilaterally, while the others will discuss openly with others beforehand
08:05 < sdaftuar> yes i think it's clear in which direction a hostile takeover is happening
08:05 < luke-jr> you complained the descriptions were confusing
08:05 < dergoegge> lol
08:05 < sipa> luke-jr: it's not about the descriptions; it's that everyone, since forever, has considered the "bitcoin" project on Transifex to be Bitcoin Core's.
08:06 < kanzure> are transifex projects able to be forked? 
08:06 < sipa> one sign of that is that since forever it has been described that way
08:06 < sr_gi[m]> luke-jr: So you went ahead and did whatever the hell you wanted to without any agreement. That doesn't look like a hostile takeover at all 
08:06 < achow101> kanzure: not explicitly
08:07 < glozow> iiuc you can download the files and import them to a new project? though unsure whether you lose things when you do that
08:07 < kanzure> okay, well, sounds like something we might want to think about developing a capability for in the future
08:07  * Earnestly still thinks an explicitly bitcoin core project would be crystal clear than this strange "bitcoin umbrella" project
08:07 < luke-jr> sr_gi[m]: I acted on the feedback
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08:08 < sipa> come on, this is ridiculous
08:08 < luke-jr> sr_gi[m]: hardly a takeover when it's been "my" project all along
08:08 < luke-jr> (if you're going to insist on drawing such lines)
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08:09 < luke-jr> sipa: the whole discussion has been ridiculous
08:09 < luke-jr> there's ZERO reason to troll about this to begin with
08:09 < sipa> luke-jr: yes, you insisting that the bitcoin project on transifex ought to include Knots is ridiculous
08:09 < luke-jr> translators can CLEARLY see which resources are Knots or Core
08:09 < Earnestly> sipa: (Not just knots, every fork)
08:09 < luke-jr> if they really want to only work on Core, they can just do that
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08:10 < sipa> luke-jr: clearly several Bitcoin Core contributors do not want to see it associated with Knots, myself included
08:10 < luke-jr> sipa: then you're jsut being a bigot
08:10 < sdaftuar> this is where i see the history of transifex associated with our project: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/590#issuecomment-2495112
08:10 < kanzure> what does it mean for it to be associated with knots? i don't know if i understand, besides the unilateral name change has anything else changed?
08:10 < achow101> kanzure: luke has uploaded a resources file for knots strings to be translated
08:11 < kanzure> okay, and is the usual thing for forks to have a separate transifex project?
08:11 < kanzure> if they do not, what is different or what consequences are there?
08:11 < achow101> yes. afaict since the transifex project was created, it has only hosted resource from Bitcoin Core
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08:12 < luke-jr> kanzure: both Core and Knots benefit from them sharing the same repo; there's apparently just a translator and several devs who are bigots
08:12 < dergoegge> needs moderation
08:12 < luke-jr> achow101: iirc it used to also have bitcoin.org translations
08:12 < achow101> the consequences is that some translators were confused by this
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08:12 < Earnestly> It'd be useful to have known what those concerns actually were
08:13 < Earnestly> (My rather meaningless position here is to have a transifex project for just bitcoin core, explicitly so.)
08:13 < luke-jr> [10:22] <hebasto> The history of recent events is as follow: [10:22] <hebasto> 2024-03-24 -- a new file 'knots-translation-26x' was added to the project bitcoin <-- btw, this isn't the actual start; first was I was asked to make it available by a translator
08:13 < sipa> Earnestly: WE HAD THAT
08:13 < Earnestly> sipa: Until it was tested, unfortunately :/
08:14 < luke-jr> sipa: there were no actual concerns stated
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08:15 < sipa> luke-jr: I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but this discussion is pointless.
08:16 < luke-jr> ok, but I'm going to leave things as they are.
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08:17 < kanzure> luke-jr: by bigoted you mean something about knots being a fork and therefore shouldn't have a separate translations security boundary? i'm not sure i follow.
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08:17 < luke-jr> kanzure: I mean they are just anti-Knots for no reason
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08:22 < sr_gi[m]> The no reason: Knots being single a dev project, having no review process and a completely different set of guarantees, yet you keep pretending it the same project as Bitcoin Core "but another release"
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08:23 < luke-jr> sr_gi[m]: It's no more single dev, than Core is 5 dev
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08:25 < vasild> "< luke-jr> on another note, what's the current place for cmake dev?" -- a lot of stuff happening here https://github.com/hebasto/bitcoin/pulls
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08:30 < sr_gi[m]> Oh so the development process is not: take Core codebase, revert anything you don't like, add anything you like, advertise it as a different release?
08:31 < Sjors[m]> laanwj gmaxwell: I also understood, but just wanted more :-)
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08:32 < ryanofsky> if there is a technical issue here, i think it would be helpful if someone would make a github issue describing what the specific problem is and what are potential solutions are. it seems to me if luke just added a separate, clearly labeled file for knots-specific translations, we wouldn't merge it and it would be unlikely to cause confusion for translators?
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08:34 < luke-jr> sr_gi[m]: Core's current de facto process is merging anything the 5 devs like and closing anything they don't.
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08:35 < luke-jr> ryanofsky: exactly
08:35 < achow101> ryanofsky: this discussion is prompted by some translators complaining about it to hebasto
08:35 < achow101> luke-jr: even if that were the case, the 5 devs are not a monolith
08:36 < sdaftuar> achow101: ryanofsky: more than that, though, there is an issue of associating with the Bitcoin Core project to lend legitimacy to other projects.
08:36 < luke-jr> achow101: I see no correction of glozow's abuse a few weeks ago
08:37 < achow101> that doesn't mean we don't sometimes agree together
08:37 < hebasto> wtogami laanwj and hebasto have been removed from maintainers on transifex. luke-jr can you explain?
08:37 < achow101> and sometimes we disagree
08:37 < sdaftuar> ok sounds like we need to move to a new transifex project
08:38 < luke-jr> hebasto: you were never on there; laanwj seemed to be agreeing with a hostile takeover; and warren has not been active so it seemed like good housecleaning while I was in there
08:38 < Sjors[m]> Translation coup?
08:38 < hebasto> luke-jr:  " you were never on there; " -- that's untrue
08:38 < luke-jr> hebasto: no, it isn't untrue
08:38 < glozow> luke-jr: can you be more specific about what I did that was "abuse" ?
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08:39 < luke-jr> glozow: closing #29769
08:39 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29769 | Policy: Enforce witness script size limit for tapscript by luke-jr · Pull Request #29769 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
08:39 < ryanofsky> achow101, i guess it's not clear if they were complaining about just the presence of the file, or some more specific confusion that would be caused?
08:40 < emzy> FWIW (german translator) I will not help to translate Bitcoin Knots and ignore it.
08:40 < luke-jr> emzy: nobody is suggesting you should be forced to
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08:42 < Sjors[m]> That PR had a well reasoned NACK and ~0 chance of getting merged, sufficient reason for a maintainer to close it.
08:43 < luke-jr> no, it iddn't
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08:44 < Sjors[m]> luke-jr: you're entitled to that opinion, but if you use it as grounds to kick people out of projects you have control over, then it makes sense that we fork away from them
08:45 < instagibbs> as you know we discussed this with almost 40 contributors, no one but you actively wants to contribute in that direction. It's dead for this repo. 
08:46 < luke-jr> Sjors[m]: you're conflating different things now
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08:48 < Sjors[m]> luke-jr: maybe I misunderstand, but I though you said you revoked laanwj's admin rights on Transifex because he agree with glozow closing your PR?
08:48 < luke-jr> Sjors[m]: no, because he was talking here about performing a hostile takeover of the org
08:48 < Sjors[m]> * thought, agreed - my d and t keys are broken? :-)
08:48 < luke-jr> if laanwj states he will not do so, can restore
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08:49 < hebasto> the control over the https://app.transifex.com/bitcoin org has been restored
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08:49 < luke-jr> hebasto: you mean hostile taken over
08:50 < Sjors[m]> By "hostile takeover" you mean removing your control over it?
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08:51 < luke-jr> Sjors[m]: yes, considering I was the project maintainer
08:52 < achow101> really? it looks like hebasto has been the one who has been uploading and annoucing our new resource files for the past several years, in addition to the merging of translations to the repo
08:52 < stickies-v> hebasto: nice, thank you for fixing this
08:52 < luke-jr> hebasto: care to clarify whether seone was involved, or you're exploiting an internal connection within Transifex?
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08:53 < luke-jr> achow101: yes, really; revisionism is not appreciated
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08:55 < laanwj> it isn't revisionism, it just isn't about the past, it's about who is active now
08:55 < luke-jr> laanwj: I am active now
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08:56 < laanwj> which would be fine if you weren't trying to use it for another project
08:56 < luke-jr> it's fine period
08:56 < luke-jr> you are performing a hostile takeover
08:56 < luke-jr> for no reason other than bigotry
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08:59 < Earnestly> It's a pity that transifex doesn't seem to have a notion of "forks" such that one project can simply merge in translations from one project to theirs as one might with git. All of these problems are technical limitations
08:59 < stickies-v> luke-jr: no, everyone in the meeting disagreed with you and then you tried to kick out the other maintainers. luckily that failed, and things now are pretty much as they were again
09:00 < laanwj> how so? if i, or hebasto, were to make a bitcoin fork and used my remaining access to add it to the existing project resources, it'd be exactly the same situation...
09:00 < luke-jr> stickies-v: I removed people who I had given access and one who was planning a hostile takeover
09:00 < luke-jr> laanwj: I didn't add it to the existing project resources, I added an entirely new one, clearly noted as such
09:00 < laanwj> we're trying to cooperate here, not ego trip
09:00 < luke-jr> laanwj: a hostile takeover is not cooperation
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09:06 < glozow> luke-jr: I've responded to you on the PR.
09:06 < Sjors[m]> Ok, so sdaftuar said "the resource should be removed" (i.e. the Knots file), which Earnestly interpreted as "luke should be removed", which sdaftuar then clarified was also fine with him, seconded by stickies-v . This seems to have led luke-jr to preemptively remove two other admins. 
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09:10 < Sjors[m]> I think it makes sense to split the translations. Even if the knots file itself is separate, it's not hard to imagine having arguments in the future about translations of topics related to spam.
09:10 < luke-jr> Sjors[m]: as the maintainer, I do not agree with removing any obviously
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09:21 < Sjors[m]> The next release isn't for several months, so imo there's no need to rush - even if a split seems inevitable.
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09:23 < warren> I skimmed the above chat. As I have not been helpful to the project recently I'm staying out of this disagreement.
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09:27 < luke-jr> :/
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09:48 < laanwj> @sjors i just saw your comment here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/guix/+bug/2064115 , the python issue is weird, yes it may be a version issue--i think ubuntu 24.04 is supposed to use Python 3.12.3. That said i've never seen anything call _ in python... as i understood it's a special variable that means "last value" in the interpreter
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09:56 < Sjors[m]> laanwj:  I'll look up the Ubuntu default Python and try that.
09:56 < warren> I'm being asked to override the majority developer decision with respect to transifex. irrespective of how admin access was originally given in 2014, I think one developer shouldn't be able to unilaterally decide differently. If they did nothing stops the others from abandoning that repo and doing the work in a new repo.
09:56 < warren> That being said I haven't been involved for years so my opinion shouldn't matter.
09:57 < luke-jr> The people in the discussion earlier do not constitute a majority of devs, and meetings here are explicitly not supposed to make decisions.
09:57 < luke-jr> if Core wants to abandon the repo that I have maintained for over a decade, they can, but it's still an absurd idea to do so
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09:58 < luke-jr> again, there are ZERO downsides to both projects using it, and benefits to both
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09:58 < luke-jr> the only "argument" against it is bigotry
09:58 < luke-jr> warren: even if your opinion shouldn't matter (which makes sense), mine should as the maintainer of it
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09:59 < warren> if my opinion doesn't matter why are you trying to convince me?
09:59 < luke-jr> because afaik you de facto have the ability to restore things to how they should be
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10:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #30024: doc: replace remaining "520" magic nums with MAX_SCRIPT_ELEMENT_SIZE (master...2024-05-MAX_SCRIPT_ELEMENT_SIZE) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30024
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10:38 < luke-jr> update: apparently seone sent me a message a few weeks ago (that I missed) asking me to move Knots off the Transifex, so I must concede on that point; though it's still ridiculous
10:38 < luke-jr> seems there isn't a viable way to use a separate project on Transifex either, so this is just going to screw over Knots completely for no reason
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10:48 < luke-jr> (though it's noteworthy the particular devs here who advocated for and performed the hostile takeover were NOT aware of this, so you guys still need to apologize at the very least)
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10:53 < luke-jr> [10:23] <hebasto> I asked luke-jr on IRC to remove Knots resources from Transifex. Still no response from him. <-- also don't see this anywhere still
10:54 < sdaftuar> https://bitcoin-irc.chaincode.com/bitcoin-core-dev/2024-04-26#1021647;
10:54 <@gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1021647 | HTTP Error 404: Not Found
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11:03 < luke-jr> sdaftuar: ah, thanks. (I was looking in DMs)
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11:20 < vasild> luke-jr: I respect you and I am not against Knots. Trying to look at this objectively. Is it not the case that none of the devs here or the maintainers on transifex did anything other than expressing their opinion in this chat. Then you removed all maintainers except yourself. Now you say that "the particular devs who advocated for and performed the hostile takeover". I don't get it.
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11:23 < vasild> The way I see it _you_ performed a takeover (or tried to). I guess that in your opinion it was not hostile, but good-minded.
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11:24 < luke-jr> vasild: It's not a takeover when I was maintaining it for over a decade already. I was not chasing anyone out, yet people here were saying they intended to chase Knots and even myself out.
11:24 < luke-jr> All I did was protect the project by temporarily removing laanwj's access to perform such an attack.
11:25 < laanwj> i mean at this point it's clear to me that you can't be trusted with things like this
11:26 < luke-jr> I'm not the one who behaved inappropriately
11:26 < luke-jr> (would be nice to know who it was)
11:26 < laanwj> i don't see it as hostile so much as childish
11:26 < luke-jr> laanwj: do you deny that you said things which could be construed as potentially attempting a takeover to remove Knots?
11:27 < vasild> luke-jr: for me, "takeover" is when one maintainer removes all other maintainers without their consent and without prior notice.
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11:28 < laanwj> i dunno... at some point if everyone agrees that you're doing something wrong, it might be your that is wrong
11:28 < luke-jr> vasild: I temporarily removed laanwj for justifiable reasons; and warren was inactive; I left seone because I wasn't sure of his activity or lack thereof.
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11:29 < luke-jr> laanwj: it might be, or it might be that "everyone" is not actually everyone, and are biased
11:29 < laanwj> i'm done with this discussion though, i'm capable of hosting my own infrastructure if needed, i don't need anything from you
11:29 < luke-jr> laanwj: again, I was not the one trying to deny anyone use of infra, you were
11:30 < luke-jr> /are
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11:37 < Sjors[m]> Do Dogecoin and Bcash leverage our translations, or this totally unsolved?
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11:39 < Sjors[m]> It shouldn't have to be rocket science to use translations from project X plus some of your own strings.
11:39 < Sjors[m]> Maybe just a matter of some script to sync between two Transifex accounts?
11:40 < Sjors[m]> We can't possibly be the only open source project with forks.
11:41 < laanwj> transifex has a quite extensive API, i'm sure something like that is possible
11:43 < laanwj> we used to use a script that transferred the entire translations and metadata from one resource to another for new major versions (which are also more or less a "fork")
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11:58 < laanwj> i'm happy to help if someone is going to work on that, but i'm not taking the initiative
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13:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3d28725134df...81174d8a9b80
13:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ff79adb Sebastian Falbesoner: remove unused templates from cpp-subprocess
13:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 908c51f Sebastian Falbesoner: remove commented out code in cpp-subprocess
13:33 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 97f1597 Sebastian Falbesoner: remove unused method `Popen::kill` from cpp-subprocess
13:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #29961: refactor: remove remaining unused code from cpp-subprocess (master...202404-further-subprocess-removals) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29961
13:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] willcl-ark opened pull request #30025: doc: fix broken relative md links (master...fix-links) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30025
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13:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/81174d8a9b80...62ef33a718c9
13:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ec1f1ab jrakibi: test:Validate UTXO snapshot with coin_height > base_height & amount > mone...
13:46 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 62ef33a Ava Chow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#29617: test: Validate UTXO snapshot with coin height...
13:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #29617: test: Validate UTXO snapshot with coin height  base height & amount  MAX_MONEY supply (master...2024/03/assumeUTXO-tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29617
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15:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #30026: refactor, test: Always initialize pointer (master...240502-msvc-c4703) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30026
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17:03 < luke-jr> [13:38] <luke-jr> update: apparently seone... <-- scratch that, seone apparently isn't tcatm
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19:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/62ef33a718c9...5127844cabbe
19:47 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b50d127 Hennadii Stepanov: refactor: Make 64-bit shift explicit
19:47 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5127844 merge-script: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#30017: refactor, fuzz: Make 64-bit shift explicit
19:48 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #30017: refactor, fuzz: Make 64-bit shift explicit (master...240501-fix-shift) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30017
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20:25 < warren> https://twitter.com/wtogami/status/1786234311752253685 My suggestion is to focus on the tooling to isolate the tiny string differences in the downstream project and automatically re-merge upon tx checkout. This might have benefits to Core as well in being able to push some translations to PRs long before they are merged on Core. Whatever happens it is unproductive to further make each other mad over this. Please try to look at it from the 
20:25 < warren> other side's POV.
20:33 < warren> hebasto: please remove me from the transifex admin. I don't want to be accused of having influence here while I haven't been a contributor here for a long time.
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22:24 < laanwj> @warren thanks for trying to be constructive and not getting caught up in the drama... that's what we need right now...
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23:59 < myrrhhh> where is laanw ?
23:59 < myrrhhh> we need him
--- Log closed Fri May 03 00:00:22 2024