--- Log opened Sat May 17 00:00:46 2025
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00:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] romanz opened pull request #32540: rest: fetch spent transaction outputs by blockhash (master...spent-prevouts) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32540
00:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] romanz opened pull request #32541: index: store per-block transaction locations for efficient lookups (master...locations-index) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32541
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01:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c461d1528758...3023d7e6ad52
01:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2c84b8 fanquake: Squashed 'src/leveldb/' changes from 4188247086..113db4962b
01:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0769c8f fanquake: Update leveldb subtree to latest upstream
01:42 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7015052 fanquake: build: remove Wsuggest-override suppression from leveldb build
01:42 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto merged pull request #32534: Update leveldb subtree to latest upstream (master...update_leveldb_subtree) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32534
02:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3023d7e6ad52...b81e5076aa56
02:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa414ed MarcoFalke: scripted-diff: Remove unused leading newline in RPC docs
02:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fae840e MarcoFalke: rpc: Reject beginning newline in RPC docs
02:10 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa1f10a MarcoFalke: doc: Fix minor typos in rpc help
02:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #32514: scripted-diff: Remove unused leading newline in RPC docs (master...2505-rpc-newline) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32514
02:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 7 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b81e5076aa56...7710a31f0cb6
02:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 94c87bb Ava Chow: test: Remove unnecessary importprivkey from wallet_createwallet
02:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fcc4575 Ava Chow: test: Replace importprivkey with wallet_importprivkey
02:19 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d314207 Ava Chow: test: Replace usage of importaddress
02:19 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #32452: test: Remove legacy wallet RPC overloads (master...cleanup-test-import-overload) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32452
02:24 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoincore.org] fanquake opened pull request #1133: blog: add redirect for disclose-cve-2024-52919 post (master...cve_redirect) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/1133
02:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoincore.org] fanquake opened pull request #1134: doc: drop text about project lead (master...drop_project_lead) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/1134
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04:28 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin-detached-sigs] pinheadmz pushed 1 commit to 28.x: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/compare/da9ae6864fd7...490283601047
04:28 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin-detached-sigs/28.x 4902836 Matthew Zipkin: 28.2: osx signature for rc1
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08:46 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheCharlatan opened pull request #32543: kernel: Remove dependency on clientversion (master...kernelRmClientversion) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32543
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09:37 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theStack opened pull request #32544: scripted-diff: test: remove 'descriptors=True' argument for `createwallet` calls (master...202505-scripted-diff-remove_descriptors_false_args) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32544
09:47 < PaperSword> Thoughts about deprecating LevelDB for something like RocksDB or LMDB/
09:52 < sipa> PaperSword: that's suggested semi frequently
09:54 < PaperSword> Has there been a dbwrapper written for either db or a pull?
09:54 < sipa> not as far as i know
09:55 < sipa> it's worth experimenting with, but it's also good to keep in mind that the database layer is effectively consensus critical, and potential bugs in it can have very severe consequences
09:55 < PaperSword> I didn't see much in the repo and was going to make this a weekend project. My concerns are 
09:55 < PaperSword>    - Forking
09:55 < PaperSword>    - License
09:55 < PaperSword>    - Performance
09:55 < PaperSword>    - Is it even worth the cost? 
09:55 < PaperSword> Yep lessons have been learned in the past from Berkley to Level .7 - .8
09:55 < sipa> informed by the BIP50 fiasco (bdb/leveldb locking fork)
09:55 < PaperSword> :D
09:55 < sipa> jinx
09:56 < PaperSword> My biggest question would be, lets say in terms of performance, LMDB is much better, as such the UTXO set that would not work with level works with LMDB that would be a hardfork? 
09:57 < sipa> why would any UTXO set not work witrh leveldb?
09:57 < PaperSword> At somepoint the DB will just keel over right?
09:57 < PaperSword> Similar to running out of diskspace
09:57 < sipa> i don't see why that would be the case?
09:58 < sipa> you mean just by virtue of becoming too slow?
09:58 < PaperSword> Yeah 
09:58 < sipa> ok, yeah - i wouldn't call that a hard fork, more a centralization pressure thing
09:58 < PaperSword> Okay.
09:58 < PaperSword> Well I am going to go write something up! 
09:59 < PaperSword> Even if it's a problem would be nice to see what impact a new maintained db would have.
09:59 < PaperSword> TY for your time.
10:00 < sipa> yeah, i'm curious to see numbers
10:01 < PaperSword> Just off the cuff, are you more interested in LMDB or RocksDB? 
10:01 < sipa> bitcoin core can very aggressively cache the UTXO data cache in its application-level cache though, which may or may not impact what gains are possible at all due to the database layer
10:01 < PaperSword> Or some other backend?
10:02 < sipa> rocksdb will definitely be easier, lmdb will likely be more interesting :p
10:02 < PaperSword> 10:01:36 AM - sipa: bitcoin core can very aggressively cache the UTXO data cache in its application-level cache though […]
10:02 < PaperSword> You talking about the dbcache?
10:02 < sipa> yes
10:02 < sipa> well, the dbcache setting controls both database-layer caches and application-layer caches
10:02 < sipa> by application-layer cache, i mean CCoinsViewCache
10:03 < PaperSword> Yeah, the hot cache  of in-memory coins
10:03 < PaperSword> if entry is missing then you fallback to the db lookup
10:04 < sipa> its most important benefit i think is the "fresh" optimization (i may be biased, i introduced it), where a coin that is being spent before its creation was flushed out to disk, will just be removed from memory as if it never existed, having no long-term memory usage impact, and avoiding all CPU and I/O related to writing it out
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11:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin-detached-sigs] achow101 pushed 1 commit to 28.x: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/compare/490283601047...51462d5b446c
11:32 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin-detached-sigs/28.x 51462d5 Ava Chow: 28.2: win signature for rc1
11:32 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin-detached-sigs] achow101 pushed tag v28.2rc1: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/compare/v28.2rc1
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12:49 < TheCharlatan> PaperSword afaik both rocksdb and lmdb have been extensively tested as alternatives fairly recently, both proved slower in the benchmarks.
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12:57 < sipa> TheCharlatan: oh!
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13:24 < fjahr> TheCharlatan: Has that been documented anywhere? Would be good since it seems like this topic will surely be revisited in the future.
13:24 < fjahr> This? https://btctranscripts.com/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2024-10/leveldb
13:25 < TheCharlatan> yeah, not sure if something more complete has been written down.
13:28 < TheCharlatan> I think dgumberg should know more, but he does not seem to be on this channel?
13:28 < fjahr> I don't remember who's session this was, might be worth a delving post to document the finding for the future in a more coherent form that the transcripts.
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14:16 < gmaxwell> sipa: wumpus spent a lot of effort on lmdb a couple years ago.
14:17 < gmaxwell> rocks is basically a drops in, but yeah hasn't been faster, also really not so shocking. 
14:18 < gmaxwell> the other thing to worry about is crash durability, which is annoyingly difficult to test... not that leveldb is a paragon of it, it's at least a known quantity.  
14:18 < sipa> a point is also that the current application layer was heavily designed around leveldb's strengths and weaknesses, which means that just a straight up swapping out for a different database engine may understate its potential
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14:19 < sipa> e.g. rocksdb can use asynchronous i/o on some systems, if you use a MultiGet statement, to fetch multiple keys concurrently - something the current code just cannot use
14:19 < gmaxwell> like if something is 1% more likely to get corrupted then it's probably not worth it even if it's a fair bit faster, given how costly resyncing is, and how insignificant the runtime cost for it *except* during resync.
14:20 < gmaxwell> sipa: indeed, well also in the current code I suspect all that matters for average performance is write performance because caching is effective enough.
14:21 < sipa> depends on the setting... high/low dbcache, ssd/hdd i/o profile, IDB vs steady state, ...
14:21 < sipa> pruning or not
14:24 < gmaxwell> but also average performance isnt the only metric, if you instead measure something more like 95th percentile block acceptance, it'll presumably be dominated by times when the cache was just flushed, and at that moment the database performance matters a lot more.
14:24 < gmaxwell> there are also a bunch of tunables in leveldb / other databases that were probably last tested/adjusted with a utxo set 1/5th the current size.
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14:26 < sipa> gmaxwell: there has been some benchmarking/tuning lately, actually, see #30039 for example
14:26 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/30039 | dbwrapper: Bump LevelDB max file size to 32 MiB to avoid system slowdown from high disk cache flush rate by maciejsszmigiero · Pull Request #30039 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
14:26 < sipa> also, for several types of database flushes we no longer wipe the cache
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15:09 < bitcoin-git> [leveldb-subtree] hebasto opened pull request #53: refactor: Delete unused `ScopedHandle:operator=(ScopedHandle&&)` (bitcoin-fork...250517-unused) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/leveldb-subtree/pull/53
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16:25 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #32545: Replace cluster linearization algorithm with SFL (master...202505_sfl) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32545
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17:43 < PaperSword> sipa: gmaxwell:
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17:55 < andrewtoth> gmaxwell: after #28233 we no longer empty the cache every 24 hours, so on default cache settings you can keep your cache for a week or so before running out of memory and forcing a flush. using a higher dbcache setting is also now beneficial for block connection, not just IBD performance. but for when we are empty (say after a restart), we could prefill the cache with all the block's prevouts in parallel via #31132.
17:55 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28233 | validation: don't clear cache on periodic flush: >2x block connection speed by andrewtoth · Pull Request #28233 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
17:55 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31132 | validation: fetch block inputs on parallel threads 10% faster IBD by andrewtoth · Pull Request #31132 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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18:04 < gmaxwell> andrewtoth: I don't recall anymore why the startup test doesn't prime the cache, but in any case the mempool loading does.
18:08 < PaperSword> Are there any uses of leveldb where the key size is > 511 bytes?
18:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ant12334 opened pull request #32546: Staple (master...staple) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32546
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18:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 closed pull request #32546: Staple (master...staple) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32546
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