--- Log opened Sat Jul 05 00:00:32 2025
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05:58 < sipa> phantomcircuit: "need" is a big word, but it would break assumptions that peers make
06:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] maflcko opened pull request #32880: ci: Avoid cd into build dir (master...2507-ci-less-cd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32880
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08:31 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] maflcko opened pull request #32881: Turn rpcauth.py test into functional test (master...2507-test-rpcauth-fun) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32881
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09:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] HowHsu opened pull request #32882: index: remove unnecessary locater cleaning in BaseIndex::Init() (master...read-best-block) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32882
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11:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] tdb3 closed pull request #30713: rpc: add `relevant_blocks` to `scanblocks status` (master...relevant_blocks_in_scanblocks_status) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/30713
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13:08 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vtjl10 opened pull request #32883: Rename `shuffled_indeces` to `shuffled_indices` in `rpc_packages.py` (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32883
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14:59 < phantomcircuit> sipa: the only thing i can think of like that is the og ibd algorithm, is that what you're thinking of?
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15:30 < sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm more thinking of all our tests which would break, by sending a ping and waitong for a pokg to know a node is done processing
15:31 < sipa> (not that that is a problem, but it's an indication of the kind of things can clearly be relied upon right now by peers)
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15:49 < sipa> lacking a formal specification of what the expected behavior of the P2P protocol is, i don't think this is something that can just be changed (at least not without a way to negotiate it as an optional thing)
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15:57 < phantomcircuit> sipa: what response do we even have for the block message?
15:57 < sipa> phantomcircuit: none, but responses to later messages can depend on it
15:57 < phantomcircuit> i can definitely see changing the orderr breaking a bunch of the functional networking tests
15:57 < phantomcircuit> like basically all of them right
15:57 < sipa> yes
15:58 < phantomcircuit> so in theory i could also just have multiptl message handling threads and try to reduce the lock contention on cs main by finding individual things locking it that don't need to
15:59 < phantomcircuit> like im pretty sure i can remove the lock from IsInitialBlockDownload with a handful of atomics
16:01 < phantomcircuit> tthe alternative is to dilligently identify all of the actual data in memory and reduce the scope of locks while ensuring no lock orderring issues... which um sounds harder
16:02 < sipa> lock annotations are pretty good these days, you'll have more effort convincing clang's analyser that a change is safe, than accidentally introducing a lock ordering issue
16:02 < sipa> but really, i think the way to go is a validation queue for tx/blocks like i suggested earlier
16:03 < sipa> that won't on itself give you more parallellism, but it means all effort to improve that will be localized in validation code, not spread everywhere
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16:07 < phantomcircuit> sipa: without a specific path to parallelism by doing that im afaird it'll make things more complicated, but not actually any faster
16:08 < sipa> well, yes, obviously
16:09 < sipa> but right now i don't even want to try reasoning about it
16:09 < sipa> at least things like validating multiple transactions in parallel seems pretty doable
16:10 < sipa> (individual transactions, received from different peers)
16:11 < sipa> and it would mean without any further changes that for example we can process and respond to ADDR or PING messages even while a block is being processed
16:12 < sipa> i'm considering working on something like this post-clustermempool, fwiw
16:12 < phantomcircuit> sipa: so that's what i thought to but there's enough random other things that acquire cs_main that the msghand thread ends up waiting until the blocks processed
16:12 < phantomcircuit> IsInitialBlockDownload being the one that im 99% sure can be lock free
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16:14 < sipa> well cs_main would move to validation, and net_processing would become independent of ot
16:14 < phantomcircuit> to test this i put ActivateBestChain in a background thread and ran it on a 10 minute timer, while it's running absolutely nothing will happen because it's holding the chainstate lock and cs_main
16:15 < phantomcircuit> yeah but doing that for the things that wouldn't be put in a queue seems like the first step
16:16 < sipa> anything that needs validation-related data structures (chainstate, headers, mempool, block tree) would need to go through the queue mechanism, effectively making it async, and letting validation decide when to process them
16:16 < phantomcircuit> we're accessing chainstate in places where the result can be pretty fuzzy, like IsIBD doesn't need to be absolutely correct, it's already an approximation
16:16 < sipa> right
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16:18 < sipa> my goal is reducing latency much more than increasing throughput, but i think it's a good step towards that too
16:19 < phantomcircuit> sipa: so do you think looking for things accessing chainstate which don't really need it is a good first step here?
16:19 < phantomcircuit> seems like ehem *atomic* improvements
16:20 < sipa> yeah, i don't think that on itself will gain us much
16:20 < sipa> but it'll be necessary anyway
16:21 < phantomcircuit> sipa: yeah that's what im thinking
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