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#bitcoin-core-dev 08:13 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:21 -!- argmin [~argmin@62-87-103-254.red-acceso.airtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:23 -!- argmin [~argmin@62-87-103-254.red-acceso.airtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36 -!- bugs_ [~bugs@user/bugs/x-5128603] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:37 -!- bitcoinlover [~hacker4we@user/hacker4web3bitco] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:42 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:44 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:56 -!- stringintech [~stringint@user/stringintech] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:57 -!- Emc99 [~Emc99@212.129.80.237] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:58 -!- stringintech [~stringint@user/stringintech] has quit [Client Quit] 08:58 -!- stringintech [~stringint@user/stringintech] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 08:59 -!- dzxzg [~dzxzg@user/dzxzg] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:00 < achow101> #startmeeting 09:00 < corebot> achow101: Meeting started at 2025-08-14T16:00+0000 09:00 < corebot> achow101: Current chairs: achow101 09:00 < corebot> achow101: Useful commands: #action #info #idea #link #topic #motion #vote #close #endmeeting 09:00 < corebot> achow101: See also: https://hcoop-meetbot.readthedocs.io/en/stable/ 09:00 < corebot> achow101: Participants should now identify themselves with '#here' or with an alias like '#here FirstLast' 09:00 < darosior> hi 09:00 < fjahr> hi 09:00 < sipa> hi 09:00 < achow101> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: abubakarsadiq achow101 _aj_ ajonas b10c brunoerg cfields darosior dergoegge fanquake fjahr furszy gleb glozow hebasto hodlinator instagibbs jarolrod jonatack josibake kanzure laanwj LarryRuane lightlike luke-jr maflcko marcofleon maxedw Murch pinheadmz provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar S3RK stickies-v sipa sr_gi tdb3 theStack TheCharlatan vasild willcl-ark 09:00 < instagibbs> hi 09:00 < furszy> hi 09:00 < purpleKarrot> #here 09:00 < maxedw> hi 09:00 < TheCharlatan> hi 09:00 < purpleKarrot> hi 09:00 < johnny9dev> hi 09:01 < achow101> There are no pre-proposed meeting topics this week. Any last minute ones to add? 09:01 < dzxzg> hi 09:01 < sr_gi[m]1> hi 09:01 < lightlike> hi 09:01 < achow101> #topic Erlay WG Update (sr_gi, gleb) 09:02 < brunoerg> hi 09:02 < stickies-v> hi 09:02 < l0rinc> hi 09:02 < laanwj> hi 09:03 < eugenesiegel> hi 09:03 < cfields> hi 09:03 < sr_gi[m]1> I've been cleaning up and redesigning some parts of the full Erlay implementation so it's easier to follow, using txdownloadman as reference. I've also been adding all the missing unit tests and expanding part of the functional 09:03 < sr_gi[m]1> Review keeps being needed on the initial PR 09:04 -!- f321x [~f321x@user/f321x] has quit [Quit: f321x] 09:04 < sr_gi[m]1> Nothing more to add on my end 09:04 < achow101> #topic Kernel WG Update (TheCharlatan) 09:04 < TheCharlatan> Steady progress on the API side, lots of discussions happening there, but seems like we are slowly coalescing on a common approach. 09:05 < TheCharlatan> Hunting for ACKs in #33078 - should be close to merge now 09:05 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33078 | kernel: improve BlockChecked ownership semantics by stickies-v · Pull Request #33078 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:05 < TheCharlatan> ^ it simplifies some of our API code a little bit. 09:05 < TheCharlatan> Also had a steady stream of new contributors over the past few weeks, both looking to help flesh out the API, and write some new applications. 09:05 < sipa> 09:06 < TheCharlatan> that's all :) 09:06 < kevkevin> hi 09:06 < achow101> #topic Benchmarking WG Update (josie, l0rinc) 09:06 < l0rinc> Since we have added a warning for large dbcache flushes in previous release in #31534, it would be good if we could add a related optimization for speeding up the slow flushes, see #31645. 09:06 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31534 | coins: warn on shutdown for big UTXO set flushes by l0rinc · Pull Request #31534 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:07 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31645 | [IBD] flush UTXO set in batches proportional to `dbcache` size by l0rinc · Pull Request #31645 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:07 < l0rinc> The change is only adjusting the already-configurable defaults, but has a measurable effect on a critical part of IBD performance. 09:07 < l0rinc> Could we include it in v30? 09:08 < achow101> we have less than a week to feature freeze and there's already a bunch of stuff in the milestone 09:08 < achow101> how easy is it to review? 09:08 < l0rinc> reveiw is trivial, basically just a value change, but reproducing it would take a few hours in the background 09:09 < achow101> is there any urgency for it to be in 30? 09:09 < l0rinc> no, just a preference since this release already contains 6 other IBD related optimizations 09:10 < achow101> i don't think it should go into the milestone, but if it gets enough review before feature freeze, it can still go in 09:10 < l0rinc> and slow flushing is a common complaint, users think the app is frozen 09:10 < l0rinc> k, thanks 09:11 < l0rinc> that's it from me 09:11 < achow101> #topic Cluster Mempool WG Update (sdaftuar, sipa) 09:12 < sipa> opened what i think is the last txgraph pr for now 09:13 < sipa> then time to review cluster mempool PR itselr 09:14 < sipa> nothing for 30.0 for sure 09:14 < sipa> that's it 09:14 < achow101> #topic MuSig2 WG Update (achow101) 09:15 < achow101> No updates this week, please review #29675 09:15 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29675 | wallet: Be able to receive and spend inputs involving MuSig2 aggregate keys by achow101 · Pull Request #29675 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:15 < achow101> #topic QML GUI WG Update (jarolrod, johnny9dev) 09:15 < johnny9dev> was away on family vacation for the last week so getting caught up again. before I left there were a few PRs added for getting the new branch up to the feature set that I have in my personal fork. 09:16 < johnny9dev> short term, the focus is just to catch up the send and payment request features 09:16 < johnny9dev> another contributor, deer-gee is looking to upstream some events so he can complete his assumeutxo interface as well so that will likely start soon 09:17 -!- bugs_ [~bugs@user/bugs/x-5128603] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:17 < johnny9dev> thats all for now 09:17 < achow101> #topic Script Validation WG Update (fjahr) 09:17 < fjahr> There was some further development on the batch validation secp PR (review still welcome) but it still lacks pippenger support, I will probably wait a bit with rebasing the core PR until that’s the case. That’s it from me. 09:18 < achow101> #topic 30.0 feature freeze 09:18 < achow101> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/milestone/72 09:18 < achow101> Anything to add or remove from the mileston? 09:18 < achow101> And please review things in the milestone. Feature freeze is in 6 days 09:19 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:20 < achow101> Anything else to discuss this week? 09:20 < l0rinc> I have a different question about dbcache: given that we don't have fine-grained cache invalidation (we clear the cache, when full), has anyone investigated if we could reseed it with the past ~10 blocks after clearing? 09:21 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21 < willcl-ark> hi 09:21 < sipa> we don't always wipe completely anymore all the timr 09:21 < sipa> it's worth experimenting with, i think 09:21 < sipa> also at startup 09:22 < l0rinc> yes, we already read 6 blocks for validation at the beginning, we could use those to seed the cache 09:22 < l0rinc> thank you 09:23 < cfields> I think Sjors[m]1 had a topic to discuss? 09:23 < achow101> I don't see it? 09:23 < Sjors[m]1> On mobile, so can't contribute much. 09:24 < Sjors[m]1> Basically the request to add to milestone above 09:24 < cfields> Ah, he just threw it out, not specifically for this meeting: 09:24 < cfields> I'd like to propose #31802 for the v30 milestone, if only to discuss if it needs to be punted to the next release again. 09:24 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31802 | Add bitcoin-{node,gui} to release binaries for IPC by Sjors · Pull Request #31802 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:25 < Sjors[m]1> I'd like to propose #31802 for the v30 milestone, if only to discuss if it needs to be punted to the next release again. 09:25 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31802 | Add bitcoin-{node,gui} to release binaries for IPC by Sjors · Pull Request #31802 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:25 < sipa> my very 10000-mile view: i think it'd be nice if we had IPC enabled in from-source builds by default for a while before we add it to releases 09:25 < achow101> does it need to be in this release? 09:26 < Sjors[m]1> Although that makes sense the only people who currently want to test this prefer binaries over source builds. 09:26 < sipa> Sjors[m]1: that's a good point 09:26 < achow101> I agree with sipa 09:26 < Sjors[m]1> And if I have to keep shipping a custom build anyway then I probably won't use the IPC variant because it's extra complexity. 09:27 < Sjors[m]1> Compared to just integrating sv2 directly. 09:27 < Sjors[m]1> So not sure how much we'll learn from waiting another six months. 09:27 < sipa> Sjors[m]1: that seems like a false dichotomy; over time, i do expect we'll add it to release binaries 09:28 < Sjors[m]1> Though maybe I'll ship a v30.0 + IPC patch binary myself. 09:29 < stickies-v> "The initial main use case for IPC is to enable experimental support for the Mining IPC interface." this doesn't seem like a very strong reason to ship ipc binaries imo, i don't think we should rush it in 09:29 < darosior> pinged Russ, fwiw 09:29 < Sjors[m]1> Compared to six months ago it does seem much likely that eventually this will make it in, meaning that me maintaining an IPC binary won't be a dead end. 09:29 < sipa> i also agree with thr view that we'll likely not learn that much if the use case is primarily people who want binatoes 09:29 < sipa> *binaries 09:30 < sipa> so, not opposed, but it feels rather unusual compared to how usually do thong 09:30 < sipa> things 09:30 < fanquake> Not sure I understand why it's extra complexity to ship the IPC binaries When it's either guix build 1 branch, or the other, to produce bins? 09:30 < ryanofsky> Trying to catch up. I've open #31756 months ago to ask for feedback on this but haven't gotten much 09:30 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31756 | RFC: Adding bitcoin-{node,gui} binaries for IPC in 30.0 release · Issue #31756 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:31 < ryanofsky> Would appreciate if people weigh in with any concerns there 09:32 < Sjors[m]1> fanquake: having to explain people to use / trust my binaries adds friction. 09:32 -!- Cory67 [~Cory44@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:32 < Sjors[m]1> Once they overcome that friction, I might as well ship a modified bitcoind that has the whole Template Provider built in. 09:32 < fanquake> Can you elaborate on who these people are? Any reason they aren't showing up on GH to champion / review any of the related PRs etc 09:32 < Sjors[m]1> So they don't have to bother with IPC. 09:32 < fanquake> Or show up to the meeting to advocate for it's inclusion into Core 09:33 < Sjors[m]1> Do they have to send an open letter? :-) 09:33 < ryanofsky> Sjors[m]1, I'd be nice if they commented on 31756 09:33 < Sjors[m]1> https://github.com/Sjors/bitcoin/issues/98 09:33 < sipa> Sjors[m]1: haha 09:33 < Sjors[m]1> ^ they report bugs directly to me mostly 09:33 < Sjors[m]1> SRI folks are generally not familiar with our codebase. 09:34 < Sjors[m]1> Pavlnex left a thumbs up on 31802 09:34 < sipa> #31802 09:34 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/31802 | Add bitcoin-{node,gui} to release binaries for IPC by Sjors · Pull Request #31802 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 09:34 < sipa> ah 09:34 < fanquake> I think my point is more that you clearly already have a relationship with your existing users 09:35 < fanquake> So it seems like you building the bins doesn't actually add much friction, if they are already trusting your software to begin with 09:35 < Sjors[m]1> I don't know how far that trust goes though. 09:35 < Sjors[m]1> For testing, sure. 09:35 < sipa> Sjors[m]1: agree 09:35 < Sjors[m]1> Mainnet pools? Maybe. 09:36 -!- Cory44 [~Cory11@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:36 < Sjors[m]1> Not a position I want to be in once a large amount of money is involved. 09:36 < sipa> let's try reviewing/commenting on the PR/issue 09:36 < achow101> can they comment in the pr/issue advocating for it then? 09:37 < Sjors[m]1> achow101: sure, I'll make a call out... 09:37 < achow101> Any other topics to discuss? 09:37 < Sjors[m]1> Maybe they're being a bit too polite and quiet. 09:38 < ryanofsky> I'd also like to hear concretely about what the fears/downsides of releasing this feature are 09:39 < sipa> i don't think there are downsides to doing so, once it's reviewed enough 09:39 < TheCharlatan> i've been slow on the ipc review recently, the crash bugs we ran into have made me a bit hesitant over the past few months. 09:39 < ryanofsky> Crash bugs? 09:40 < darosior> I started to write a fuzz target for those and got diverted into working on other things. 09:41 < darosior> Given that i go on vacation in about 2 hours i won't make more progress on that nor review of the PR being discussed, so won't opine. 09:41 < TheCharlatan> ryanofsky, i.e. https://github.com/bitcoin-core/libmultiprocess/issues/182 09:43 < ryanofsky> IPC code wasn't originally written to handle external clients that disconnected uncleanly but this should be fixed in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/32345 09:44 < ryanofsky> Misbehaving IPC clients in general can crash the node, IPC is a trusted interface 09:45 < sipa> right 09:45 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 09:46 < achow101> I think we can further discussion in the pr/issue 09:46 < achow101> Any other topics? 09:48 < achow101> #endmeeting 09:48 < corebot> achow101: Meeting ended at 2025-08-14T16:48+0000 09:48 < corebot> achow101: Raw log: https://achow101.com/ircmeetings/2025/bitcoin-core-dev.2025-08-14_16_00.log.json 09:48 < corebot> achow101: Formatted log: https://achow101.com/ircmeetings/2025/bitcoin-core-dev.2025-08-14_16_00.log.html 09:48 < corebot> achow101: Minutes: https://achow101.com/ircmeetings/2025/bitcoin-core-dev.2025-08-14_16_00.html 09:48 -!- Emc99 [~Emc99@212.129.80.237] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 09:50 -!- thelounge49666 [~thelounge@149.106.235.56] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:52 -!- thelounge4966 [~thelounge@149.106.235.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:53 -!- stringintech [~stringint@user/stringintech] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 10:08 -!- jespada [~jespada@2800:a4:2225:9000:913:54f8:4fc8:5494] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:10 -!- jespada [~jespada@2800:a4:221c:d00:54c4:d919:36f:30dc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:24 -!- bugs_ [~bugs@user/bugs/x-5128603] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:30 -!- Cory52 [~Cory67@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:33 -!- Cory38 [~Cory52@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:34 -!- Cory67 [~Cory44@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:37 -!- Cory52 [~Cory67@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:44 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:45 < darosior> Re #33183 actually i'm not sure which way to go.. It's technically a gratuitous RPC breaking change? But if we say so then we need to revert the renaming that already happened in #33050... 10:45 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33183 | validation: rename block script verification error from "mandatory" to "block" by darosior · Pull Request #33183 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 10:45 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33050 | net, validation: don't punish peers for consensus-invalid txs by ajtowns · Pull Request #33050 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 10:46 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:48 < darosior> Or we say there is no stability guarantees for strings in RPCs? That's really annoying that we don't give any clear guarantees regarding our RPC interface, downstream users are left guessing what they can rely on, and we just guess what we can break 10:49 < sipa> in which RPCs does it get exposed? 10:49 < darosior> In errors when submitting a transaction 10:49 < darosior> And i suppose in errors when submitting a block? 10:49 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:50 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:50 < darosior> I guess i'll push the release note to 33183 already. If we are to break the interface, it might as well at least be consistent 10:52 < sipa> yeah 10:52 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54 < eugenesiegel> release note is helpful, the change will break lnd's string parsing 10:56 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:57 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:58 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:05 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:05 < darosior> Ugh, good to know. I'm leaning toward avoiding an unnecessary break. 11:06 < darosior> Oh wait, no. 11:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9b1a7c3e8dd7...e17b5da0d6d1 11:06 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 67e186d Sjors Provoost: doc: update wallet build instruction 11:06 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e17b5da Ava Chow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#33179: doc: update wallet build instruction 11:06 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #33179: doc: update wallet build instruction (master...2025/08/wallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33179 11:07 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:07 < darosior> Actually the reason for the break is that #33050 dropped the detection, so without renaming it could have returned "non-mandatory" for consensus checks which would be a silent break. At least renaming makes it an explicit break. 11:07 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33050 | net, validation: don't punish peers for consensus-invalid txs by ajtowns · Pull Request #33050 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 11:12 < eugenesiegel> I think I misunderstood, 33050 breaks lnd if it somehow submits a non-standard transaction, 33183 does not 11:13 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow opened pull request #33189: rpc: followups for 33106 (master...2025-08-minrelay) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33189 11:14 < sipa> #33050 #33183 11:14 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33050 | net, validation: don't punish peers for consensus-invalid txs by ajtowns · Pull Request #33050 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 11:14 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/33183 | validation: rename block script verification error from "mandatory" to "block" by darosior · Pull Request #33183 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 11:19 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:22 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Client Quit] 11:24 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e17b5da0d6d1...8405fdb06e8f 11:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 110a0f4 pablomartin4btc: interfaces, chain, refactor: Remove unused getTipLocator 11:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2b00030 pablomartin4btc: interfaces, chain, refactor: Remove inaccurate getActiveChainLocator 11:30 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8405fdb Ava Chow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#33169: interfaces, chain, refactor: Remove unused ge... 11:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #33169: interfaces, chain, refactor: Remove unused getTipLocator and incaccurate getActiveChainLocator (master...interfaces-chain-refactor-remove-getTipLocator-and-getActiveChainLocator) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33169 11:37 < sipa> eugenesiegel: for 33050 it's probably inevitable, because there is less validation actually done that could distinguish between formerly-observably-distinct cases? 11:45 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@209.242.39.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49 < eugenesiegel> sipa: I'm confused, is it because if the error string "non-mandatory-script-verify-flag" were kept, it would mask some consensus failures especially to downstream users? And that introducing a new error string is more correct? 11:49 < eugenesiegel> fwiw, I don't have an issue with the change 11:57 < sipa> eugenesiegel: i'm possibly confused myself, nevermind 12:06 -!- ___nick___ [~quassel@82-132-213-128.dab.02.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:08 -!- ___nick___ [~quassel@82-132-213-128.dab.02.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10 -!- ___nick___ [~quassel@82-132-213-128.dab.02.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:14 -!- robszarka [~szarka@2603:3003:4eac:100:7ca7:d245:5be5:1ef6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15 -!- szarka [~szarka@2603:3003:4eac:100:7ca7:d245:5be5:1ef6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:19 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:20 -!- thelounge49666 [~thelounge@149.106.235.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:26 -!- eugenesiegel [~eugenesie@user/eugenesiegel] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 12:27 -!- thelounge49666 [~thelounge@149.106.235.56] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:36 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:40 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 12:41 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:46 -!- mudsip [~mudsip@user/mudsip] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:46 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:46 -!- mudsip [~mudsip@user/mudsip] has quit [Client Quit] 12:52 -!- ___nick___ [~quassel@82-132-213-128.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52 -!- ___nick___ [~quassel@82-132-213-128.dab.02.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:06 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: l0rinc, maxedw, jespada, gossie, chjj, synexic, uasf, jesseposner, jerryf, amiti___, (+143 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 13:09 -!- Cory47 [~Cory2@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:09 -!- Cory2 [~Cory38@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:09 -!- Netsplit over, joins: maxedw, purpleKarrot, fjahr, laanwj, dergoegge, stickies-v, ryanofsky, TheCharlatan, lightningbot, BlueMatt (+119 more) 13:10 -!- jespada_ [~jespada@2800:a4:221c:d00:4516:4dbf:4dbc:d0] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: kanzure, cornfeedhobo, jnewbery, angusp, szarka, spynxic, Ara, dermoth, zone117x, hirish (+7 more) 13:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: nanotube, hernanmarino, sliv3r__, TallTim 13:10 -!- jespada [~jespada@2800:a4:221c:d00:54c4:d919:36f:30dc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11 -!- Cory2 [~Cory38@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:12 -!- eugenesiegel [~eugenesie@user/eugenesiegel] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:18 -!- eugenesiegel [~eugenesie@user/eugenesiegel] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:21 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:23 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:27 -!- hardtotell [~hardtotel@user/hardtotell] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 13:27 -!- hardtotell [~hardtotel@user/hardtotell] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:35 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ryanofsky opened pull request #33190: build: Enable ENABLE_IPC option by default (master...pr/ipc-default) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33190 13:38 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:38 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:40 -!- jespada_ [~jespada@2800:a4:221c:d00:4516:4dbf:4dbc:d0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46 -!- Cory81 [~Cory47@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:47 -!- Cory81 [~Cory47@user/pasha] has quit [Client Quit] 13:47 -!- Cory81 [~Cory81@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:50 -!- Cory47 [~Cory2@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:53 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@185.193.125.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:53 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@185.193.125.44] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:08 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@185.193.125.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:09 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@185.193.125.44] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:09 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:10 -!- jespada [~jespada@2800:a4:221c:d00:5878:108c:d6ec:98c9] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:23 -!- jackielove4u [~jackielov@user/jackielove4u] has quit [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat] 14:25 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 14:26 -!- Guest5149 [~gmaxwell@c-71-198-111-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:26 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:28 -!- jackielove4u [~jackielov@user/jackielove4u] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:29 -!- purpleKarrot [~purpleKar@user/purpleKarrot] has quit [Quit: purpleKarrot] 14:30 -!- Guest5149 [~gmaxwell@user/gmaxwell] has changed host 14:30 -!- Guest5149 is now known as gmaxwell 14:30 < gmaxwell> glozow: So whats with setting the mining fee to 1s/vkb? In the interest of timelyness I'll be tested acking the PR shortly, regardless, but I think setting that below the relay fee is a mistake. At least in my thinking the ideal way to roll out changes to minfeerate is to first decrease relay feerates then once the network has widely absorbed that change, lower mining feerates--... and if 14:30 < gmaxwell> increasing go the other way, increase mining feerates then once few blocks include increase relay feerates. Is the assumption now just that too many miners are objectively hostile to the functioning of the network that there is no hope of doing a staged deployment anymore? 14:39 < gmaxwell> W/ the mining feerate essentially mooted it means that any future update that lowers relay feelrates will immediately result in mining txn that have very poor propagation, which would be against the interests of the network. Even right now, say there are miners that have mining set to 1000 or 100 but have relay set to a non-default setting of under 100 will immediately start mining at that 14:39 < gmaxwell> level, which won't relay well even with the PR deployed. 14:39 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:40 < gmaxwell> and while there are good arguments that 100 is plenty for anti-DOS so it's an easy decision to match whats being mined... if this PR did result in 1s/vkb being mined that would be a much more difficult question. 14:41 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:44 < gmaxwell> But happy to hear if I'm just missing another perspective. 14:45 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@185.193.125.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:46 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:48 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:49 -!- Cory23 [~Cory81@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:51 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:51 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@c-76-100-108-154.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:53 -!- Cory81 [~Cory81@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:56 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@c-76-100-108-154.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56 -!- mudsip [~mudsip@user/mudsip] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:57 -!- mudsip [~mudsip@user/mudsip] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59 < _aj_> gmaxwell: the thought from two years ago when we were looking at #26933 and #27018 was that we don't want things sitting in our mempool that we'll never consider for mining (eg, they might block us from accepting some tx we would mine due to rbf shenanigans). if miners are setting relay/incremental to sub-100, then already seems likely they'll also set blockminfee to a similar value 14:59 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26933 | mempool: disallow txns under min relay fee, even in packages by glozow · Pull Request #26933 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 14:59 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/27018 | mempool / miner: regularly flush <=0-fee entries and mine everything in the mempool by glozow · Pull Request #27018 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 15:01 < gmaxwell> _aj_: sure not on an ongoing basis, but as some transitional thing I think harmless. There isn't a particular cost in stuff sitting in mempools and not getting mined. In practice what has happened in the past with prior transitions is that a few parties moved earlier, and clearted them out. 15:01 < gmaxwell> _aj_: I think the alternative is to make infrastructure for defaults that chage on flag heights. 15:02 < gmaxwell> change* 15:02 < _aj_> yeah, flag heights/mediantimes would be my preference 15:03 < gmaxwell> Basically, I agree relay policy and mining policy should match-- but when policy change paradoxically making your local relay and mining policy *not* match can make the two match better network wide. 15:03 < gmaxwell> but yeah I suppose a flag point would be just superior across the board. 15:07 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 15:07 -!- twistedline [~bitcoin@185.193.125.44] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:07 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:09 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:11 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:12 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 12 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8405fdb06e8f...578b512bdd88 15:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 616bc22 Eugene Siegel: test: remove noexcept(false) comment in ~DebugLogHelper 15:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b8e92fb Eugene Siegel: log: avoid double hashing in SourceLocationHasher 15:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5f70bc8 Eugene Siegel: log: remove const qualifier from arguments in LogPrintFormatInternal 15:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #33011: log: rate limiting followups (master...32604_followup_07152025) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33011 15:16 -!- mudsip [~mudsip@user/mudsip] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:16 -!- mudsip [~mudsip@user/mudsip] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@138.199.6.197] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:23 -!- Cory43 [~Cory23@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:27 -!- Cory23 [~Cory81@user/pasha] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:28 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:28 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:31 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:32 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has quit [Client Quit] 15:33 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ajtowns opened pull request #33191: net: Provide block templates to peers on request (master...202508-sendtemplate1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33191 15:35 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:35 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:36 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:38 -!- bugs_ [~bugs@user/bugs/x-5128603] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:40 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:40 -!- sliv3r__ [~sliv3r__@user/sliv3r-:76883] has quit [Server closed connection] 15:41 -!- sliv3r__ [~sliv3r__@user/sliv3r-:76883] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:53 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:54 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:56 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:56 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:59 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:00 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09 -!- Cory43 [~Cory23@user/pasha] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 16:09 -!- Cory43 [~Cory43@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:15 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2603:300a:2305:c000:1cb3:e1a6:b03c:fa7c] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:16 -!- hernanmarino [~hernanmar@2800:2330:2800:142:d46a:bea6:9fc7:d0] has quit [Server closed connection] 16:16 -!- hernanmarino [~hernanmar@181.85.54.61] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:16 < sipa> gmaxwell: i think the reduction to 1 sat/kvB is really a "there shouldn't be a separate rule for what to mine from the mempool, the mempool itself should be good enough at only accepting good things" 16:18 < sipa> though i think there have been some suggestions that that should be a change to consider separately from the minrelayfee reduction PR 16:39 < sipa> gmaxwell: i hadn't really considered your perspective here of seeing it as a way to coordinate ability to relay/mine separately, though - i thought it was mostly a way to allow miners to set a per-byte cost to including a transaction (due to the increased propagation delay including would cause the transaction to have), which is mostly outdated compact-blocks 16:40 -!- PaperSword1 [~Thunderbi@securemail.qrsnap.io] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:40 -!- PaperSword [~Thunderbi@securemail.qrsnap.io] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40 -!- PaperSword1 is now known as PaperSword 16:46 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2603:300a:2305:c000:1cb3:e1a6:b03c:fa7c] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 17:06 < gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC we've done staged rule changes like that before-- it's also basically how every soft fork works (though at least there has some coordinated activation point) 17:07 -!- durandal_ [~durandal@148.252.147.159] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:07 -!- emcy__ [~durandal@148.252.147.159] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:16 -!- Cory43 [~Cory43@user/pasha] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 17:16 -!- Cory43 [~Cory43@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:18 < sipa> gmaxwell: i can't recall that ever being done for policy changes 17:18 < sipa> but yes, that's certainly a possibility 17:19 < sipa> i remember softforks that were preceeded by a policy chang 17:20 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@32.141.102.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:20 < gmaxwell> yeah I'll think before see if I can think up a good example. 17:20 < gmaxwell> in any case as I suggested above, another alternative is to make defaults that change during runtime based on some flag block, which also addresses the issue and does to even better. 17:23 < gmaxwell> (wouldn't make sense to do *right now* simply because miners are already mining 100s/vkb, but this is the bad uncoordinated case that it would be nice to avoid) 17:27 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2603:300a:2305:c000:1cb3:e1a6:b03c:fa7c] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:28 < _aj_> i proposed an approach like that for fullrbf in #26323 fwiw 17:28 < corebot> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26323 | Make full RBF default, but defer mainnet enablement by ajtowns · Pull Request #26323 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 17:33 < gmaxwell> _aj_: re, stuff floating around not getting mined. I think it's really only an issue if it's not mined *at all* because then its a free relay vector. If it's mined even rarely, it's not a big concern. Stuff getting mined that is not relayed though is pretty crappy, even if it's slightly relayed, thats still not great. If there weren't big hashpower consolidations perhaps you could count on 17:33 < gmaxwell> self-interest to regulate that (though kind of obnoxious if you have to change defaults to get the right behavior) -- but with consolidations it's arguably in the self interest of the larger miners to increase the stale rate. 17:34 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 17:35 -!- zeropoint [~alex@45-28-139-114.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:35 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:38 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:42 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 17:44 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:46 -!- joetor5 [~Thunderbi@user/joetor5] has quit [Quit: joetor5] 17:56 -!- jerryf_ [~jerryf@user/jerryf] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 17:56 -!- jerryf [~jerryf@user/jerryf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58 -!- l0rinc 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joined #bitcoin-core-dev 18:44 -!- Cory43 [~Cory43@user/pasha] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 18:44 -!- Cory43 [~Cory43@user/pasha] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 18:45 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@209.184.121.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:47 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 18:49 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:00 -!- upekkha [~Advanced@2a01:4f8:1c0c:49df::1] has quit [] 19:00 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 19:01 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:05 -!- upekkha [~Advanced@2a01:4f8:1c0c:49df::1] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] l0rinc closed pull request #33094: refactor: unify container presence checks (master...l0rinc/count-vs-contains) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33094 19:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] l0rinc reopened pull request #33094: refactor: unify container presence checks (master...l0rinc/count-vs-contains) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33094 19:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] l0rinc closed pull request #33094: refactor: unify container presence checks (master...l0rinc/count-vs-contains) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33094 19:29 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] l0rinc opened pull request #33192: refactor: unify container presence checks (without PR conflicts) (master...l0rinc/count-vs-contains) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/33192 19:38 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 19:39 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:41 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Client Quit] 19:41 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@209.184.121.14] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:48 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 19:58 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has quit [Quit: l0rinc] 20:02 -!- w0xlt [~w0xlt@209.184.121.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03 -!- l0rinc [~l0rinc@user/l0rinc] has 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