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ZZZzzz…] 08:25 -!- hugohn [~textual@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:37 < harding> This week's meeting will start in about 90 minutes. jnewbery is off today so I'll be leading the session. I've just added some notes about this week's PR, #15681, to the overview page on the site: https://bitcoin-core-review-club.github.io/15681.html Please hold any questions about the PR for the meeting, but if you have any meta-comments or suggestions, I'll be available both now and 08:37 < harding> after the meeting. 08:39 -!- hugohn [~textual@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 08:46 -!- hugohn [~textual@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:58 -!- csknk [~csknk@unaffiliated/csknk] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:59 -!- hugohn [~textual@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:01 -!- rrybarczyk [sid364924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xckwbwywqcvtkzgq] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:09 -!- seven_ [~seven@BSN-77-101-62.static.siol.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:10 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@globaldatalink1.old.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:12 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@82-132-212-230.dab.02.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:13 -!- rrybarczyk [sid364924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xckwbwywqcvtkzgq] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:14 -!- rrybarczyk [sid364924@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ymsghffihvkhdywa] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:33 -!- van [41d13c92@65.209.60.146] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:49 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:50 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:50 < harding> About 10 minutes until meeting start. A link to this week's PR, some notes, and some sample questions may be found here: https://bitcoin-core-review-club.github.io/15681.html 09:57 -!- lightlike [~lightlike@2001:16b8:5745:f200:7095:c73f:87c3:3f09] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:59 < sosthene> Hi everyone 10:00 -!- kiwi_29 [73c1b61b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.115.193.182.27] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:00 -!- cidercider88 [73c1b61b@115.193.182.27] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:00 < harding> Hi everyone. John Newbery is off today, so I'll be hosting this week's meeting. Let's get started by everyone saying hi and letting us know if you did any homework---read this week's PR, tried building it, read the notes at https://bitcoin-core-review-club.github.io/15681.html, read the mailing list discussion related to the PR, or did any other reviewing before the meeting (it's ok if 10:00 < michaelfolkson> Hey 10:00 < harding> you didn't). 10:00 -!- kiwi_29 [73c1b61b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.115.193.182.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00 < lightlike> hi 10:01 < schmidty> hola! did my reading homework but no building 10:01 < ccdle12> hi everyone 10:01 < cidercider88> didnt read it 10:01 < michaelfolkson> Same as for me. Only seen your notes though when you posted them here 10:02 < ccdle12> read and built it 10:02 < van> I did the readings. 10:02 < lightlike> built it, read some of the discussion 10:03 < harding> So that's a pretty good amount of people investigating it, great! 10:04 < harding> lightlike: what seemed to be the motivation for this PR? 10:04 < sosthene> Read it, didn't build 10:04 < harding> Did anyone spot anything you thought was a substantial problem? 10:04 < cidercider88> to include children txs i guess 10:05 < lightlike> harding: I would say to make it easier to get the CPFP transaction in case of a non-mutual consent Lightning network channel closing, where otherwise certain attacks would be possible. 10:05 < harding> lightlike: precisely. 10:06 < lightlike> I must say though that I didn't completely understand though why this exact change achieves it. 10:06 < harding> The certain attack is that your channel counterparty could make it impossible for you to fee bump a channel-closing transaction. 10:07 < harding> Does anyone know why this change seems to address the problem? 10:07 < michaelfolkson> But how do they make it impossible? I didn't quite get that. Why can't you just submit another child transaction with a bigger fee? 10:08 < sosthene> Isn't it particularly in the case of the counterparty trying to cheat on you by broadcasting an outdated commitment tx? 10:09 < sosthene> michaelfolkson: if I get it right since the tx has 1 output controled by each party, Mallory could do a large, low fee child tx that would prevent the honnest party to bump fees 10:09 < harding> michaelfolkson: good question. The reason is that Bitcoin Core has limits on how many descendents a transaction can have; this prevents CPU and memory wasting attacks against a node. Unfortunately, your counterparty can create spam transactions that meet these limits and prevent you from adding any more children to the mempool. 10:09 < harding> sosthene: that and delaying an HTLC output until it expires. 10:11 < harding> So what this PR is supposed to enable is a CPFP fee bump that can exceed the limits if it has only one unconfirmed parent in the mempool. 10:11 < michaelfolkson> I get you don't want loads of child transactions with low fees sitting in mempools but if it had a large fee Bitcoin Core should allow it to be added to the mempool? 10:12 -!- r8921039 [~r8921039@173.239.65.123] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:12 < ccdle12> harding: ahh thats what the check for clearing the ancestors set? meaning this new fee bump is the potential +1 the limit as long as the next check passes (only on unconfirmed parent) 10:13 < harding> In an LN case, there will only be two outputs that can be spent, so Mallory can spend one output enough that it hits the limits but this rules allows Bob to still exceed the limits (by a small amount) in order to CPFP. 10:13 -!- cidercider [3cbad8cf@60.186.216.207] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:14 < harding> michaelfolkson: we actually don't mind loads of low-fee transactions in the mempool. The problem with child transactions is that week need to keep track of and update their dependency set, which can become (I believe) a combinatorial problem. For that reason, the number of related transactions is limited. 10:15 < michaelfolkson> Ah ok, thanks 10:16 < lightlike> harding: For this change to kick in, isn't it necessary that at least 24 descendants must exist (meaning that there will still be a bidding war)? 10:16 < harding> ccdle12: so you only get to use this special trick once per ancestor, so the worst case is that 1/3 of txes in the mempool are parents, 1/3 txes are spam, and 1/3 txes are these extras. On a simple analysis, that doesn't seem like it should be a problem---but during a review, we'd want to check that logic to make sure it's sound. 10:16 -!- cidercider88 [73c1b61b@115.193.182.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:17 < harding> lightlike: the limits are 25 (24 children, as you suggest) or 101,000 vbytes. See the bitcoind -help-debug for -limitdescendantsize 10:18 < harding> lightlike: also, it's not just childred but any descendents. So Mallory could create parent->child1->child2->childN->child24, filling up all the slots herself without giving Bob a chance. 10:19 < michaelfolkson> Parent -> Child -> Grandchild -> Great grandchild right? 10:19 < harding> I think we're getting good questions; did anyone else have any other questions, including things about the PR contents (coding style, tests, notes from building it, etc?) 10:19 < harding> michaelfolkson: yeah. I should've said it that way. 10:19 < michaelfolkson> Not Parent -> Child 1, Parent -> Child 2, Parent -> Child 3 etc 10:21 < sosthene> regarding the test, I see Matt created a brand new test, wouldn't it make more sense to test this case in the existing mempool_packages.py test? 10:22 < harding> sosthene: hah, you did more research on it than me there; I didn't know there was a mempool_packages.py test. Without investigating, I'd suggest that would probably be a better home for the test than a new file. However, I don't believe new files add much overhead and the PR author (bluematt) is more familar with the project and its guidelines than I am. 10:23 < sosthene> harding: just watched the header files in the commit :) 10:24 < wumpus> I think every separate functional test does add a few seconds to spin up / spin down nodes, so if you see an oppertunity to merge it with another (without creating a confusing/non-deterministic mess) then it's good to suggest that, I think 10:25 < harding> wumpus: good info, thanks! 10:26 -!- carlaKC [b84af09c@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:26 -!- b10c [~b10c@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:26 < harding> Any other questions? 10:26 < b10c> Hi 10:26 < michaelfolkson> So Matt's solution of allocating two small value outputs that are immediately spendable only by the two parties in the channel. How many times do you get a broadcast a spend from your output? 10:27 < harding> When changing relay logic, one thing we want to be really careful about is ensuring we don't break anyone's legitimate application unnecessarily. Does anyone see how that could happen using this PR? 10:28 < harding> michaelfolkson: each output can only be spent once, as a consensus rule. 10:28 < michaelfolkson> Ah. So you really need to get the fee estimate right if you only get one chance? 10:28 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@globaldatalink1.old.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 10:29 < harding> Can anyone answer michaelfolkson's last question? (I can; I want to give y'all a chance.) 10:30 < sosthene> michaelfolkson: since it's meant to be use in emergency situation, I think most people won't take any chance with the fees and aim very high 10:30 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@207.189.24.169] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:30 < sosthene> I mean, one chance should be enough 10:30 < harding> Consider: do you actually only get one chance? 10:31 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@207.189.24.169] has quit [Client Quit] 10:31 < sosthene> mmmhhh if you get pinned by Mallory, I guess you only have one chance, or I am missing something? 10:31 < schmidty> RBF the CPFP? 10:32 < harding> schmidty: yes! 10:32 < michaelfolkson> ooooh 10:32 < sosthene> ok 10:32 < michaelfolkson> 25 chances again? 10:33 < sosthene> michaelfolkson: I don't know the rules wrt RBF, but I think the 25 child policy is for CPFP 10:33 < harding> It's worth noting that I don't believe that LN folks want this feature just for emergencies, they want to be able to use it in all cases of non-cooperative closes (which can be innocent "Alice went offline" kind of situations). They just need to ensure it works in adversarial cases. That means they might want to start with small fees and increase them as deadlines appreach. 10:34 < michaelfolkson> sorry yes, ignore that 10:34 < lightlike> do you think that miners might choose not to implement this change to the mempool policy in order to keep the LN small? 10:35 < sosthene> lightlike: but it's not in their interest since they will earn more fees by accepting it 10:35 < harding> lightlike: miner censorship is always possible. The question we want to answer as reviewers is: "will miners implementing this policy earn more money than miners not implementing this policy, under reasonable conditions". If the answer is yes, then we've done all we can do with regard to mempool policy. 10:36 < digi_james> Does the high-fee child-tx which takes advantage of the carve-out not constitute a new tx package, with new limits? 10:36 < harding> Of course, the thing that counteracts miners censorship is that they exist in what can be an perfectly anonymous market, so cartelization is very difficult up to the selfish-mining threshold. 10:38 < harding> digi_james: any children of the carve-out transaction would have two ancestors and so would not qualify for the exemption themselves. It might be good to make sure those limits are tested in the test code, though. 10:39 < digi_james> Oh I see, so the tx_package(carve-out tx + child) have different limits than a normal tx package? 10:40 < harding> digi_james: the carve_out_tx must be the child of a parent_tx that has no unconfirmed ancestors itself. 10:41 < michaelfolkson> Matt also talks about an alternative proposal at the bottom of that mailing list post. A "likely to be RBF-ed" transaction marking. Pros and cons of that approach versus this one? 10:41 < harding> So parent_tx->carve_out_tx would be exempt from the limit (under its other conditions). A parent_tx->carve_out_tx->grandchild_tx would not be exempt. 10:41 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@82-132-212-230.dab.02.net] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 10:43 < harding> michaelfolkson: Rusty Russell so followed that up with a proposal based on Corallo's idea: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-June/016998.html I replied in that thread and Russell is planning to revise his proposal. 10:46 < harding> So I thought this was an interesting part of the discussion on the PR: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15681#discussion_r270087859 10:47 < harding> It looks like the code that was originally PR'd allowed an unlimited sequence of replacements, sort of what digi_james was suggesting, but the tests didn't catch that problem. If you were just looking at the tests, what would you be looking for to ensure that didn't happen? 10:47 < harding> Sorry: unlimited series of children* 10:47 < sosthene> I have to go unfortunately, thanks harding ! 10:47 < harding> sosthene: thank you! 10:50 < harding> Hmm. Any more questions then? Any comments? 10:51 < lightlike> harding: i guess that a test that a large transaction >10k which would otherwise be fine, is not allowed would have caught that. 10:55 < harding> lightlike: yeah. I was thinking, in this case, maybe what should've been done is look at the existing tests for CPFP and make sure they're extended to cover all of the new cases being added. 10:57 < harding> E.g. the previous tests assumed that if you hit 101,000 vbytes, a failure was expected. The new rule made those not always failures depending on the ancestry of the transaction being spent, so it'd be important to make sure that if the (1) old 101,000 vbyte condition was met, (2) the new carve-out condition was met, that (3) the old test failed any addition new transactions again. 10:58 < harding> Anyway, that seems to be it for this topic. Thank you all for coming! Next week's topic is "#15443 Add getdescriptorinfo functional test (tests)", https://bitcoin-core-review-club.github.io/15443.html 10:59 < lightlike> Thanks harding! 10:59 < ccdle12> thank you harding! 11:01 < digi_james> Thanks a ton Harding! 11:01 -!- hugohn [~textual@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 11:02 -!- carlaKC [b84af09c@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10 -!- van64 [41d13c92@65.209.60.146] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 11:12 -!- van64 [41d13c92@65.209.60.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@207.189.24.169] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 11:21 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@207.189.24.169] has quit [Client Quit] 11:23 -!- hugohn [~textual@rrcs-184-74-240-156.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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