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10:00 < josibake> #startmeeting
10:00 < glozow> hi
10:00 < josibake> hi everyone! 
10:00 < vnprc> hi
10:00 < josibake> welcome to this edition of the pr review club
10:00 < ls55> Hi
10:00 < lightlike> hi
10:00 < antonleviathan> o/
10:00 < furszy> hi
10:00 < josibake> we are reviewing #24584, "avoid mixing different `OutputTypes` during coin selection"
10:01 < theStack> hi
10:01 < josibake> notes can be found here: https://bitcoincore.reviews/24584
10:01 < Bayer> Hi
10:01 < josibake> anyone's first time?
10:01 < Bayer> Yep!
10:01 < antonleviathan> same here
10:01 < vnprc> 2nd
10:01 < furszy> same
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10:01 < josibake> welcome Bayer, antonleviathan, furszy!
10:02 < Bayer> ty:)
10:02 < josibake> for the first timers, feel free to blurt stuff out! no need to ask if a question is relevant or on-topic before asking
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10:02 < Murch> Hi
10:02 < antonleviathan> sounds good, I want to thank Murch for inviting me!
10:02 < josibake> did everyone get a change to review the PR or read over the notes? you can respond with a quick y/n
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10:02 < svav> Hi
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10:02 < effexzi> Hi every1 
10:02 < antonleviathan> y
10:02 < ls55> y
10:02 < Bayer> Y
10:02 < furszy> y
10:03 < a1ph4byte> Hello.
10:03 < vnprc> y notes, n review
10:03 < Murch> y
10:03 < svav> y notes
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10:03 < larryruane> hi
10:03 < schmidty> hi
10:03 < effexzi> Y notes
10:03 < josibake> awesome, lots of y's :) 
10:04 < josibake> can someone summarize what this PR is about?
10:04 < Murch> Privacy!
10:05  * Murch might have been too concise :p
10:05 < vnprc> improving the privacy of core wallet coin selection
10:05 < josibake> murch: you win the "briefest summary award"
10:05 < antonleviathan> to help reduce the ability of observers to infer what the change address is, and move towards newer UTXO types over time when sending txs
10:05 < svav> Preventing privacy leaks caused by mixing output types
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10:06 < josibake> vnprc, antonleviathan, svav: all correct! 
10:06 < josibake> for those that reviewed the notes/PR, Concept ACK, approach ACK, or NACK?
10:06 < ls55> Approach ACK
10:07 < Bayer> Concept ACK
10:07 < Murch> Homogenizing input usage to not reveal that a wallet deals in multiple output types while being cost sensitive about it
10:07 < larryruane> string concept ACK
10:07 < Murch> Approach ACK
10:07 < larryruane> *strong
10:07 < svav> josibake what made you feel this PR was a necessity?
10:07 < effexzi> Concept ACK
10:07 < vnprc> concept ACK
10:07 < josibake> svav: using bitcoin core as my primary wallet and not liking what i saw in the inputs of my transactions :) 
10:07 < svav> josibake was there a particular incident? Where did you get the idea for the PR from?
10:08 < antonleviathan> Approach ACK
10:08 < josibake> svav: from my own experience and also a data analysis project ive been working on! but i can answer more questions about that later 
10:08 < josibake> can someone explain what the "payment to different script type" heuristic is?
10:09 < josibake> and why is it relevant to this PR ?
10:09 < ls55> It is a way of identifying which output is change and which is payment based on the type of input.
10:09 < josibake> ls55: correct! does it work on any transaction?
10:10 < Murch> When a transaction has two different output types, and one of the matches the type of the inputs, observers can assume that the matching output is the change
10:10 < lightlike> why does one, in the example of the PR, infer that an output that is being mixed later is likely the change of an earlier tx? If it was the payment instead, couldn't that later be be mixed with other outputs as well?
10:11 < Bayer> It does not work on all transactions. only ones with differing script types.
10:11 < Murch> If both outputs match type, but one of them is later mixed with more modern UTXOs on a transaction, we can assume that the other output was the one that picked the less modern format—and thus was the receiver.
10:11 < vnprc> josibake: no i think it requires a tx with multiple output address types, one of which matches the input type
10:12 < lightlike> ok, so the assumption is that whoever uses older formats doesn't support newer ones?
10:12 < Murch> lightlike: Right
10:13 < Murch> Because they cost more
10:13 < josibake> lightlike: great question. if i see a tx with all bech32 inputs and two p2sh outputs, and then in the next tx i see that p2sh output mixed with bech32 inputs to fund the second tx, it is very likely that the p2sh output being mixed was the change from the first, assuming that the wallet is picking a change address to match the payment address (which core does)
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10:13 < Murch> If you could receive more modern formats, why would you request getting paid in an older, less-blockspace efficient format?
10:13 < Bayer> I think some users may accidentally use older formats out of ignorance no?
10:14 < josibake> Bayer, vnprc: yep, this is a specific type of tx. as of today tho, these txs are about 30% of all txs
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10:15 < Murch> > <@Bayer:libera.chat> I think some users may accidentally use older formats out of ignorance no?
10:15 < Murch>  * Well, if they consistently use older formats, they'd still match the pattern, wouldn't they
10:15 < Murch> Bayer: Well, if they consistently use older formats, they'd still match the pattern, wouldn't the@?
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10:16 < antonleviathan> when you say "type" of tx, it's not really about the tx right, it's more about the script type of input and output utxos?
10:16 < vnprc> murch: commercial wallets and exchanges may hold back on adopting new address types due to poor support for these address types in the wallet ecosystem
10:16 < Murch> I think in this case it refers to transactions with mixed output types
10:17 < josibake> antonleviathan: almost yes! which is a great segue into the next question
10:17 < josibake> what are OutputTypes and TxoutTypes?
10:17 < Murch> vnprc: Sure, but they could still use it for the change in that case, since change only goes from their wallet to themselves
10:17 < josibake> how are they different? 
10:17 < furszy> aside from the extra fee costs, wouldn't be more confusing for a chain analysis company if the software would be randomly changing output formats? instead of be always uniformly using the newest one or using the same provided by the receiver.
10:17 < larryruane> Murch's pinned tweet may be helpful: https://twitter.com/murchandamus/status/1262062602298916865?s=20&t=cM3sr6T5n7PrLnEnu5pM-w
10:17 < josibake> OutputType: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/be7a5f2fc400e7a3ef72dedbdcf49dd6c96d4f9e/src/outputtype.h#L18
10:17 < Murch> But if they don't use it for change and also don't use it for receiving, they effectively just behave as if they only had access to the old type
10:18 < josibake> TxoutType: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/be7a5f2fc400e7a3ef72dedbdcf49dd6c96d4f9e/src/script/standard.h#L59
10:18 < ls55> `TxoutType` is the scriptPubKey. Normally the `standard.cpp:Solver()` function is used to identify which type of a given `CScript& scriptPubKey`.
10:18 < ls55> `OutputType` is related to address format. It is also related to descriptors (`OutputType::LEGACY -> pkh()`, `OutputType::BECH32 -> wpkh()`, `OutputType::BECH32M -> tr()` and so on).
10:18 < ls55> Although both are similar in concept, the `TxoutType` enum also covers non-default transaction type, multisign and non-spendable OP_RETURN script.
10:18 < Murch> furszy: Yeah, there are some fun ways how you could deliberately break heuristics. ::
10:19 < josibake> furszy: great question. what would be the downside for the user if a wallet did this?
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10:19 < josibake> ls55: great summary. so for our txs, we are referring to transactions that mix different address formats in the inputs 
10:20 < theStack> josibake: furszy: one downside is that that this would also include old formats like P2PKH where you would pay more fees then for spending, i guess
10:21 < furszy> josibake: yeah, fees mostly and.. wallet size increase
10:21 < vnprc> josibake: confusion, higher fees, just a lot more friction in general for the user
10:21 < Murch> theStack: Yeah, added costs, and potentially causing yourself to need to mix inputs in a later transaction
10:22 < furszy> vnprc: I don't think that the user would get any extra confusion.
10:22 < josibake> theStack: yes! in this scenario, better privacy would cost the user more in fees 
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10:22 < furszy> I mean, the change script is automatically handled by the walelt
10:22 < furszy> *wallet
10:22  * theStack dreams of a fantasy world in 10-20 years where simply everyone uses only P2TR and all those discussions are obsolete xD
10:22 < furszy> most of the users don't even know how the change looks like
10:23 < Murch> theStack: Hopefully ~5 years! :D
10:23 < josibake> theStack: P2TR was one of the motivations for this PR! with P2TR adoption, i expect the pay to different script type heuristic to match even more txs as user transition from legacy, p2sh, bech32 to using bech32m
10:23 < Murch> Although, who knows maybe someone will propose a new output type so we can do CISA and the whole process starts over
10:23 < theStack> Murch: heh, that's optimistic for sure
10:24 < josibake> furszy: good point, altho if a user wants to use a newer output type, it could be confusing/annoying if they see there wallet using lots of older, less efficient types
10:24 < Murch> True
10:24 < furszy> yeah for sure
10:25 < Murch> It's been 4.5 years since segwit activated and only 50% of the inputs are segwit.
10:25 < Bayer> That always surprises me! Is that just slow merchant/custodial wallet adoption?
10:26 < furszy> probably there should be a balance, between the extra privacy (which comes with extra fee costs to confuse observers) and the "always use the most efficient payment type"
10:26 < josibake> so we've touched on the topic of efficient vs private transactions already.. so how does the wallet pick the "best" input set for funding a tx?
10:26 < furszy> maybe configurable by the user?
10:26 < ls55> "50% of the inputs are segwit" Does this refer to the coins currently in the UXO Set?
10:26 < josibake> more specifically, how do we choose the best result when running `SelectCoins`
10:26 < vnprc> furszy: consider this scenario: a user spends down most of their funds leaving only old address types. They find themselves unable to spend funds that require a newer address type even though their wallet software tells them they have enough BTC. The user would need to consolidate UTXOs into a newer address type. This user doesn't understand why
10:26 < vnprc> this is required.
10:27 < ls55> The best `SelectionResult` is the one with the least waste or with the most inputs when wastes are equal.
10:27 < Murch> ls55: No, to input types by count in the transactions we see per day: https://transactionfee.info/charts/inputs-types-by-count/
10:27 < theStack> ls55: no, looking at the UTXO set the statistic is way worse; but that's also because many UTXOs are there forever, as they simply were abused for storing data in the early days
10:27 < sipa> Part of it is a chicken-and-egg problem. Receiving wallets don't want to upgrade before mostly all sending software/sites supports it. Especially enterprise/custodial sending software/sites usually have their hands full support the latest dog breed variety ape coin, and won't allocate much engineering resources on bitcoin unless receivers demand it.
10:28 < Murch> josibake: We currently use multiple different coin selection algorithms and then pick the one that scores best per the waste metric.
10:28 < josibake> furszy: regarding a balance between privacy and efficiency, this is one of the things that makes coin selection hard (fun)
10:28 < ls55> "abused for storing data  " Cannot those coins be removed from the UTXO Set ?
10:29 < antonleviathan> "select whether you prefer privacy or lower fees" :p
10:29 < sipa> antonleviathan: If that's the choice, unfortunately there is little hope for privacy.
10:30 < josibake> vnprc: what do you mean by "spend funds that require a newer address type?" in theory, you should always be able to spend older address types
10:30 < ls55> much: great chart
10:30 < antonleviathan> sipa: i'd agree with that, unfortunately negligence on security and privacy is the standard for most
10:30 < Murch> ls55: Only about 13.6M UTXOs are know to be segwit and some share of the 15.4M P2SH are wrapped segwit. So all in all, definitely less than 50%
10:30 < sipa> Especially on a system as public as a blockchain, decent privacy really demands that nearly everyone favors the more private solution. If that solution comes at a significant cost, it just won't be used.
10:30 < Bayer> sipa: Yep that makes sense. It's unfortunate but the reality I suppose. More education could help, get the users informed and they can put pressure on those larger players.
10:31 < theStack> ls55: no, because you can't mathematically prove that they can't be spent; by looking at them you see that e.g. the hash is text created by a human, i.e. not a real hash from a preimage
10:31 < sipa> Designing solutions where privacy doesn't come at a (significant) cost is the first hurdle.
10:31 < Murch> ls55: UTXO set repartitioned by output type: https://txstats.com/dashboard/db/utxo-set-repartition-by-output-type
10:31 < josibake> antonleviathan, furszy: regarding making it configurable, imo bitcoin core wallet should try to be fairly balanced by default. meaning, reasonable efficiency and reasonable privacy. this leaves room for other wallets to specialize in being a "super efficient wallet" or a "super private wallet"
10:32 < josibake> sipa: great point! 
10:32 < antonleviathan> i see, that's a sensible approach
10:32 < antonleviathan> core is for all
10:33 < ls55> theStack: Got it
10:33 < sipa> Offering options, or "expert mode" workflows that allow for more configurability is of course nice, but it shouldn't be a replacement for thinking about privacy by default.
10:33 < Murch> antonleviathan: cost is easy to quantify, privacy/security not as much
10:33 < vnprc> josibake: ah, i think i had a misconception about how this works, thx
10:34 < furszy> yeah josibake, problem is where the line between "reasonable privacy" and "there is no privacy" is hehe
10:34 < sipa> Murch: Yeah...
10:34 < ls55> Murch: very insteresting chart. The vast majority are still P2PKH.
10:35 < josibake> sipa: privacy by default is the only way to actually help users be more private. of course, having more options to allow users to opt in to sacrificing efficiency for more privacy is also good
10:35 < Murch> Aye, and all of those eventually need to go through the eye of the needle that is blockspace supply ;)
10:35 < josibake> so i saw some good answers regarding coin selection, but can someone briefly explain what the "waste metric" is? 
10:36 < sipa> My somewhat cynical view is that options/expert mode things are really only useful for education and PR. They don't meaningfully contribute to privacy.
10:38 < josibake> sipa: i tend to agree, altho i think adding things as optional/expert mode can be a great way to see how they perform in the wild, with the goal of iterating on them and making them default
10:38 < josibake> but if they are always optional, then yes, i dont think they meaningfully contribute 
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10:39 < josibake> hint for waste metric: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/be7a5f2fc400e7a3ef72dedbdcf49dd6c96d4f9e/src/wallet/coinselection.cpp#L374
10:39 < Bayer> Murch: wow that chart. Very curious to see how that'll look like in 10 years
10:39  * Murch thinks that he should blog about the waste metric. 🤔
10:40 < vnprc> waste metric looks like a combination of unnecessary fees and/or the cost of creating a new change output
10:40 < vnprc> murch: +1
10:41 < antonleviathan> murch: +1
10:41 < ls55> murch: +1
10:41 < josibake> murch: i think everyone really wants a blog on the waste metric.. 
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10:41 < josibake> vnprc: what do you mean by "unnecessary fees" ?
10:41 < Bayer> I guess it calculates the waste based on different inputs being used for said tx. I assume we're aiming for less waste
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10:43 < josibake> Bayer: the goal is definitely less waste! 
10:43 < Bayer> lol well I got that right!:)
10:43 < vnprc> I recall branch and bound seeks to eliminate change outputs by matching input UTXO values to the amount the user wants to spend. I think it does this by setting a threshold and donating the small excess UTXO value in the form of fees. Just going off my memory here.
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10:43 < vnprc> murch: please correct me if i am wrong
10:43 < josibake> the main idea is we have a long term fee rate estimate and we compare what it would cost to spend now vs spend this tx in the future with the LTFRE
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10:44 < svav> SelectCoinsBnB uses a Branch and Bound algorithm to explore a bounded search tree of potential solutions, scoring them with a metric called “waste.” Notably, the Branch and Bound algorithm looks for an exact solution and never produces a change output. As such, it’s possible for SelectCoinsBnB to fail even though the wallet has sufficient
10:44 < svav> funds.
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10:45 < Murch> vnprc: That's right
10:45 < vnprc> yesssss!
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10:46 < antonleviathan> whats "LTFRE"?
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10:46 < sipa> Long Term Fee Rate Estimate
10:46 < josibake> this next question is a bit more open ended (no wrong answers) and is similar to the discussion we just had about privacy vs efficiency: are there other things/metrics we could consider during coin selection besides just the waste metric? 
10:46 < svav> The above re SelectCoinsBnB was a copy and paste from my notes but it seemed relevant
10:46 < Murch> Yeah, the `waste metric` compares the cost of the inputs currently selected to a hypothetical cost of spending them later at a longterm feerate estimate. It also adds the cost of creating and spending change, or if there is no change, the excess beyond the target that is dropped to the fees to make the changeless transaciton
10:47 < Murch> svav: Yep, that's where the waste metric was first introduced, but we've since generalized it to be used as a prioritization tool to pick from multiple input set candidates in transaction building
10:48 < theStack> how would that LTFRE roughly work? and what is considered "long-term"... weeks, months, years?
10:49 < Murch> We had a Review Club about the PR that started using waste metric in that manner: https://bitcoincore.reviews/22009
10:49 < Murch> theStack: We used the time-proven method of Murch's gut feeling and went with a static 10 s/vB
10:49 < josibake> theStack: great question. right now LTFRE is a "magic number" of 10 s/vb
10:49 < theStack> i have to think of that famous quote "prediction is very difficult, epsecially if it's about the future" :)
10:49 < josibake> so its a "magic murch number" :D 
10:49 < theStack> Murch: :D
10:50 < theStack> murchic number
10:50 < vnprc> josibake: personally, i would prefer to spend smaller UTXOs over larger ones just to maintain a low profile on-chain
10:50 < Murch> theStack: It's been a bit high in the past 9 months or so
10:51 < josibake> vnprc: thats a good example! so this would be an example of a "privacy metric", perhaps preferring many small inputs and no change vs one giant input with a big change output that says "i have a lot of bitcoin!"
10:51 < svav> A line in spend.h is this .............. /** Other is a catch all for anything that doesn't match the known OutputTypes */
10:51 < svav>     std::vector<COutput> Other; .............. I don't really know much about this, but could this be some sort of exploit risk in the coding, having an "Other" ????
10:52 < theStack> vnprc: me too, but also for the reason that smaller UTXOs are more likely to be trapped due to being lower than the "effective dust-limit" in the future (not sure if that term is right, but i'm sometimes wondering if some of my UTXOs are too small to be spent in, let's say 10 years due to permanent exponentially increased fee-rates)
10:53 < vnprc> theStack: another good reason to spend small UTXOs
10:53 < Murch> svav: IIRC, other means that we either don't know the script type because it's a PSBT we haven't seen the input script for yet, or it's bare multisig or a new type we don't understand
10:53 < Murch> josibake: Please correct if I'm mixing this up
10:53 < josibake> svav: this goes back to the txouttype to outputtype mapping: a majority of utxos will fall into p2pkh, p2sh, or bech32. for more complicated script types, rather than have a specific bucket for each (or rather than just use txouttype for the mapping), we are putting them in an others bucket. if we allow mixing, this is no different behavior wise than using one giant vector of all available outputs. hope that 
10:53 < josibake> clarifies?
10:54 < josibake> murch: yep! on the nose 
10:54 < Murch> theStack: That's a good point. The interesting effect of using the waste metric as described above is that it prefers bigger input sets at low feerates. It also prefers changeless transactions. So if there is an input set that uses small UTXOs and combines to the right value we'll prefer that (unless there is something that scores even better)
10:55 < ls55> Are "more complicated script types" non-standard and multisig ?
10:55 < Murch> The old Bitcoin Core coin selection (misleading called knapsack) also very keenly spends tiny UTXOs for that reason
10:56 < svav> josibake ok thanks
10:56 < josibake> ls55: another example could be P2SH with some sort of complicated redeem script 
10:56 < josibake> in the interest of time, im gonna throw out the last two questions
10:57 < ls55> josibake: Got it
10:57 < josibake> in the PR, we run over each OutputType in AttemptSelection, but are there other spots in the code we could have added this avoid-mixing logic? 
10:58 < josibake> and lastly, for the c++ fans, what is the erase/remove idiom? why is it the preferred method for erasing elements from a container? 
10:58 < josibake> feel free to throw out answers for whichever one is more interesting to you :D 
10:58 < ls55> `std::remove_if` swaps elements inside the vector in order to put all elements that do not match the predicate towards the beginning of the container.
10:58 < ls55> `remove_if` then returns an iterator which points to the first element which matches the predicate. In other words, an iterator to the first element to be removed.
10:58 < ls55> `std::vector::erase` erases the range starting from the returned iterator to the end of the vector, such that all elements that match the predicate are removed.
10:59 < theStack> Murch: seems like a good idea. reaching changeless transactions (if it's not "send-to-myself") are rather rare i guess though in practice? (but maybe i'm think in too small scale, in wallets with a huge number of UTXOs it's probably pretty likely)
10:59 < sipa> Since C++20 you don't need the erase/remove idiom anymore, and you can just use `std::erase` ;)
10:59 < josibake> sipa: TIL! 
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10:59 < Murch> theStack: It's a surprisingly decent rate when you get over 100 or so
10:59 < Murch> Depends on the value diversity of course and what sort of payemnts you make
11:00 < josibake> ls55: great explanation!
11:01 < josibake> out of time (but feel free to stay and chat!). thanks everyone for attending! really enjoyed the discussions on this one 
11:01 < josibake> #endmeeting
11:01 < larryruane> thanks josibake, great discussion!
11:01 < theStack> thanks for hosting josibake! 
11:01 < Bayer> thanks josiblake!!
11:01 < ls55> Thanks josibake
11:01 < svav> Thanks josibake and all
11:01 < Murch> theStack:  I ran some simulations on the bustabit-hot-wallet dataset yesterday, and depending on different LTFRE values, I saw 14-40% changeless transactions
11:02 < antonleviathan> thanks josibake, this was great, i'll be back! (arnold voice)
11:02 < josibake> theStack: regarding changeless, it's actually possible to do it on a majority of txs, depending on how diverse your UTXO pool is
11:02 < theStack> Murch: interesting, so definitel worth a try... i would have expected to reach a "decent rate" by having like thousands or more UTXOs
11:02 < Murch> This is on a wallet that gets twice as many deposits as withdrawals, though
11:02 < josibake> antonleviathan: good to hear! for all the first timers, we do this every week :D 
11:02 < larryruane> is bitcoin core compiled with c++20?
11:02 < vnprc> thanks josibake
11:02 < Murch> Thanks for the fun!
11:02 < vnprc> next time more puns pls
11:02 < Bayer> This was great, will certainly be back:)
11:02 < ls55> larryruane: I think it is c++17
11:03 < josibake> larryruane: c++17, iirc?
11:03 < sipa> c++17
11:03 < sipa> for now
11:03 < josibake> sipa: :D 
11:03 < larryruane> thanks
11:03 < svav> A general question, are people here familiar with the send btc get 2x back scam videos on YouTube? Is there any organisation that actively helps tackle these scammers? I'm not aware of one.
11:04 < Murch> theStack: Well, if you have a decent value variety, even a single input hardly ever hits the target even at large UTXO pools, but if you think about the combination space spanned by 2 or 3 inputs of various values, you can get a pretty decent coverage of amounts
11:04 < sipa> we switched from c++03 to c++11 in 0.13.0, and to c++17 in 22.0.
11:04 < josibake> svav: might be a better question for #bitcoin 
11:05 < sipa> vnprc: I want type-punning puns.
11:05 < svav> ok I might take it there too, but does anyone have any comments?
11:06 < theStack> maybe i should also attempt that strategy more in real-life, i almost always have too many small UTXOs in my purse :x
11:06 < theStack> Murch: that makes sense yes
11:06 < Murch> svav: I think it's unfortunately hard to effectively combat. I've seen some educational efforts à la "If it sounds too good to be true, maybe it is?", but not sure what else one can effectively do other than perhaps crowdsourcing
11:07 < sipa> "if you have to ask whether something is a scam, it most likely is."
11:07 < svav> The problem is that there is no organisation prepared to do anything about it
11:07 < vnprc> sipa: lol TIL about type punning. I will think on it for the next meeting. :)
11:07 < Murch> svav: A bit more cynically, it's unfortunately mostly in the SFYL territory
11:07 < josibake> theStack: ive been playing around with "UTXO shaping" on testnet by using the change output to create many different sized UTXOs that go back to my wallet :) just need to be comfortable with constructing txs via the rpc 
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11:07 < josibake> "UTXO pool shaping"
11:09 < antonleviathan> "The Sweeper Faner 9000"
11:09 < svav> ... the problem is a lot of people will fall for it, and it is a bad introduction to Bitcoin for them
11:10 < Murch> theStack: with {0.1, 0.1, 0.1} you can combine [0.1, 0.2, 0.3], but with {0.05, 0.1, 0.15} you can combine [0.05, 0.1, 0.15, 0.2, 0.25, 0.3] ;)
11:10 < theStack> josibake: so you mean, you have multiple change outputs rather than only one? or you would create an extra transaction 1-to-n transaction with the change output again?
11:10 < svav> I wonder if Bitcoin could do more to prevent the gullible losing money?
11:11 < sipa> I'm not sure what that would mean. Bitcoin is not a person.
11:12 < josibake> theStack: both! the end goal would be have the wallet opportunistically split up a change output into many "optimal" sizes based on how your UTXO pool currently looks and how you want it to look 
11:12 < sipa> Certainly there are things people can do, like education, but inevitably... self-custody brings responsibilities that not everyone will be prepared for.
11:13 < svav> The irreversibility of Bitcoin transactions is a real gift for scammers ... could the software do anything to help, e.g. flag a warning of common scams to look for before allowing the transaction
11:13 < antonleviathan> josibake: "wallet opportunistically split up a change output into many "optimal" sizes based on how your UTXO pool currently looks and how you want it to look" this is super useful for businesses that work with bitcoin. i wrote a story around this that uses the historic user withdrawal size and UTXOs used in transactions to create this "optimal
11:13 < antonleviathan> set" of txs to reduce fee cost
11:14 < svav> The scale of the scams going on on YouTube alone is very big
11:14 < sipa> svav: We've done things like that in the past, e.g. add a warning in the debug window about certain RPCs, I think (unsure now, I haven't used the GUI in a long time).
11:14 < josibake> antonleviathan: very cool! would love to chat more about it at some point :) 
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11:14 < sipa> svav: But I also believe that there are inherent risks.
11:15 < sipa> Also don't forget that only a tiny portion of users (and probably not the least technically savvy ones) use Bitcoin Core's wallet.
11:15 < sipa> Not to downplay the issue of course, but it's not something that's going to be addressed with one PR in one project.
11:16 < theStack> Murch: josibake: so it could make sense to avoid creating change UTXOs with values that you already have and split them up instead
11:16 < svav> I just think it is terrible for Bitcoin's reputation
11:16 < svav> and Bitcoin should not be a system where less intelligent / gullible people can be so easily scammed
11:16 < svav> I just wondered if anyone here felt the same
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11:18 < Murch> antonleviathan: I'm not sure that's all that necessary for most businesses. When you have a few hundred deposits per day and batch withdrawals, extra splitting just adds unnecessary UTXOs
11:19 < Murch> It might be neat when you have too few payments for batching to make sense, though
11:20 < antonleviathan> Murch: yeah, that's where it really shines through, and cleaning up small txs to optimize cost, by sending a super low fee tx just to consolidate them to use them in future txs
11:20 < Murch> theStack: Every UTXO you create you also have to spend. You don't want to get into a mode where you split change multiple ways and then have to combine them in the next payment
11:20 < Murch> antonleviathan: Do you have a link to your story?
11:21 < Murch> I'd be curious to have a look
11:21 < antonleviathan> it's an internal company story, but i'm happy to capture the ideas in a gist and share
11:21 < Murch> Ah, no worries
11:22 < larryruane> TIL the erase/remove idiom -- it's cool.. without it, you might create a new vector, copy (or better, std::move) the elements you want to keep, then delete the old vector. But this would cause a memory spike ... Using erase/remove updates the vector in-place! Very clever!
11:23 < Murch> Mh, I mean it might be an interesting exercise to a posterior figure out what the optimal UTXO set changes would have been for the payment sequence, but one of the challenge is that withdrawal requests by users are somewhat unpredictable, right?
11:23 < Murch> And the amounts of those might still vary as the exchange rate changes, even if they were pretty regular
11:24 < sipa> larryruane: That's only part of the story. With erase/remove, you only modify the N deleted elements and the N last element. You could trivially also do an in-place erase that keeps the order - but it'd need to modify every index after the first deleted element.
11:25 < sipa> (e.g. `std::vector::erase` can delete elements in-place using this approach, but erase/remove is far more efficient if you don't care about the maintaining the order of remaining elements)
11:26 < sipa> Oh wow, it appears I'm wrong!
11:26 < sipa> std::remove does keep the order of the elements.
11:26 < larryruane> I'm not sure I follow ... oh
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11:28 < sipa> So what I had in mind is an even more efficient in-place removal (which does not maintain order of remaining elements), where you first perform N swaps (one per deleted element) to move them to the end of the container, and then truncate the container.
11:28 < sipa> And I had assumed that std::remove actually used that approach.
11:29 < larryruane> Here https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/algorithm/remove they give the example of removing whitespace from a string, and it seems like after the first space, all the non-space characters must be shifted down (moved)
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11:30 < sipa> Yeah, that's inevitably needed if you want to maintain the order of the remaining elements.
11:30 < larryruane> yes i see what you're saying
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11:34 < antonleviathan> d/cd, was the last thing I posted "sorry i meant three unspents of 21BTC*"?
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11:57 < theStack> did anyone ever do the math about how viable an "UTXO set bloating" attack is, i.e. if someone would create permanent txs with outputs just above the dust limit
12:00 < theStack> maybe it's not considered a real attack and doesn't hurt nodes that store all blocks anyways, but it could make it less attractive to run non-pruned nodes, decreasing decentralization
12:00 < theStack> (oops, i meant "pruned nodes" of course)
12:11 < a1ph4byte> is it possible to access this channel via a traditional IRC client
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12:12 < theStack> a1ph4byte: sure, i guess that's what most (or at least many) people do
12:13 < a1ph4byte> hmmm... cant seem to figure it out with mirc
12:14 < theStack> maybe the wrong server is selected? irc.libera.chat should work, see https://libera.chat/guides/connect
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12:25 < a1ph4byte> There we go. Thanks!
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13:21 < gerk> test
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