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[~evanlinji@gateway/tor-sasl/evanlinjin] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 07:52 -!- davidbakin [~david-bak@c-174-61-163-5.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:06 -!- Donya [~Donya@8.44.63.122] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:08 -!- Donya [~Donya@8.44.63.122] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28 -!- yashraj [yashraj@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/yashraj] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:45 -!- yashraj [yashraj@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/yashraj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:47 -!- yashraj [yashraj@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/yashraj] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:51 -!- yashraj [yashraj@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/yashraj] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:00 < lightlike> #startmeeting 10:00 -!- BlueMoon [~BlueMoon@dgb3.dgbiblio.unam.mx] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:00 < lightlike> hi! 10:00 -!- svav [~svav@82-69-86-143.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:00 < stickies-v> hi! 10:00 < BlueMoon> Hello!! 10:00 < svav> Hi 10:00 < schmidty> hi 10:01 < BlueMoon> Greetings from Mexico 10:01 < lightlike> welcome to the review club! 10:01 < brunoerg> hi! 10:01 < lightlike> anyone here for the first time? 10:01 -!- sanya [~sanya@109-93-70-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:02 < lightlike> seems not to be the case.... 10:02 -!- Bitcoin_Hodler [~Bitcoin_H@45-27-31-99.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:02 < lightlike> today's meeting is about #24170 - Manual block-relay-only connections with addnode 10:02 < larryruane> hi 10:03 < Bitcoin_Hodler> hello 10:03 < lightlike> who got the chance to look at this week's Pr (y/n)? 10:03 < Bitcoin_Hodler> n 10:03 < brunoerg> 0.7y 10:03 < schmidty> y 10:03 < stickies-v> mostly went over the notes 10:03 < svav> I read the notes 10:03 -!- frankof [~frankof@186.84.21.160] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:04 < BlueMoon> I did some reading 10:04 -!- vnprc [~vnprc@136.56.39.155] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:04 < lightlike> cool - and what was your impression? 10:04 < larryruane> y 10:04 < larryruane> 👍 10:04 < lightlike> I'm particularly interested in whether this is something people would actually consider using (since it's an optional feature) 10:05 -!- M4rcus [~M4rcus@181.208.38.141] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:06 < BlueMoon> Nodes using Tor may be susceptible to eclipse attacks. 10:06 < larryruane> I can't think that I would actually use it, because for one thing, I don't know what node IP I would add ... but I would think power users would find this useful 10:06 -!- yashraj [yashraj@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/yashraj] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:06 < brunoerg> larryruane: +1 10:06 < stickies-v> same as larryruane. I also think that as more of the people I know personally run full nodes, this may become really useful 10:07 -!- don2 [~don@8.44.63.122] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:07 < larryruane> I did have one quick question related to it being optional ... If a node is running Tor-enabled, would it be a good idea to automatically make one of the outbound block-relay-only nodes non-tor 10:07 < schmidty> lightlike: I had a similar question. Demand for such a feature and esp people that would use this and NOT use another privacy network per jonatack (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23763#issuecomment-1023500127) 10:07 < larryruane> (or i should say, by default, instead of automatically) 10:07 -!- benteiko [~benteiko@218-101-92-146.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:08 < lightlike> larryruane: that would be another option. however, it might not be what people expect who specify "onlynet=tor" (and maybe don't care that much about eclipse attacks) 10:09 < vnprc> lightlike: I like to run multiple nodes and bridge the various networks. I am definitely interested in this feature for improved privacy between these nodes. 10:10 < larryruane> "onlynet=tor" yes good point, I thought of that ... it may surprise people to see a non-tor connection if they've specified tor only 10:10 < lightlike> schmidty: I'm not sure about the state of bitcoin on additional privacy networks such as I2P or Tor. They seem to have a rather small userbase so far. 10:11 < lightlike> sorry, I meant i2P or CJDNS, not Tor, which has lots of nodes 10:12 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@mail.dargis.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:12 < lightlike> vnprc: thanks, that's good to know! 10:12 < larryruane> at a very general level, I've noticed it's difficult for us to know how many users would use a new feature, or after it's released, how many are using it ... as compared to traditional corporate closed-source software (that i'm more used to), where the company has a customer list that they can just poll 10:12 < larryruane> (we don't have to talk about that, just an observation) 10:13 < lightlike> also, I think that there may be some inherent weaknesses that privacy network share as opposed to clearnet - which brings us to the first question: 10:13 < lightlike> Why could peers that are only active on privacy networks such as Tor be more susceptible to eclipse attacks compared to clearnet-only peers? 10:13 < larryruane> lightlike: With clearnet, a node can choose peers that it knows are "far apart" based on their IP addresses. With tor, we have no idea where our peers are, they could all be colocated and belong to an attacker. 10:14 -!- dioptx [~dioptx@athedsl-214481.home.otenet.gr] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:14 < brunoerg> it's harder to identify the peers in Tor 10:15 < larryruane> (i put "far apart" in quotes because they may not be physically apart, but are likely owned by different orgs) 10:15 < lightlike> larryruane: yes, exactly. The connection making logic is based on the fact that we can establish some sort of "variety" by choosing peers from different netgroups. Onion addresses don't have that. 10:15 < larryruane> I was thinking this would be a great question for stackexchange! 10:15 < larryruane> (i looked there for this question or similar but didn't find anything) 10:16 < svav> Just the fact that there are fewer modes on Tor means there is increased vulnerability for an eclipse attack. 10:16 < lightlike> and while I'm not that knowledgable about I2P and CJDNS, I suspect it might be similar. 10:16 < svav> *nodes* 10:16 < larryruane> svav: +1 10:16 < stickies-v> I also read that it seems quite trivial to make a node blacklist non-attacker exit nodes, so that with sufficient iterations only/mostly attacker exit nodes remain - is that understanding correct? 10:16 < lightlike> svav: that is a good point about the smaller privacy networks, but I'm not sure it still applies to Tor: 10:17 < lightlike> svav: https://bitnodes.io/nodes/ tells me that of 15k reachable nodes, approximatle half of them are Tor nodes! 10:17 < larryruane> stickies-v: oh wow, that's subtle! (not sure how that would work) 10:17 < lightlike> I found this really surprising 10:18 < larryruane> yeah I'm running a RPi mynode, and have tor enabled ... (I tried to have tor enabled during IBD but it was super slow, so turned it off until it synced) 10:18 < stickies-v> larryruane it's explained in "D. Banning Tor Exit nodes" of the paper linked in the notes: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2015/papers-archived/6949a122.pdf 10:20 < lightlike> I don't know whether this still applies today (the paper is quite old, 2005) 10:20 < yashraj> That might be 2015 10:20 < lightlike> oops yes, of course :-) 10:20 < BlueMoon> I did the same as larryruane turned it off until it synced. 10:20 < BlueMoon> I thought the same thing is from 2015 10:21 < stickies-v> (was just submitting a PR to fix the 2005 typo haha) 10:21 -!- piratefrommacao [~piratefro@24.48.7.246] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:23 < lightlike> larryruane: do you run tor-only? Or do you also have some connections via IPv4 or Ipv6? 10:23 < yashraj> stickies-v: beat me to it lol 10:23 < evanlinjin> How do we determine whether the paper is still relevant? 10:25 < yashraj> evanlinjin: agree, and/or that sipa etc haven't addressed the concerns already? 10:25 < lightlike> evanlinjin: we'd probably have to ask tor experts. Maybe asking on stackoverflow would be a good idea for this too. 10:26 < lightlike> Ok, let's move to the next question: 10:26 < lightlike> What is the difference between the onetry and add modes in the addnode RPC? 10:27 < stickies-v> lightlike would you agree that if the 2015 paper attack vector is not applicable anymore, the eclipse attack vector for tor-only connections seems quite limited, since it doesn't allow for a *targeted* attack? 10:27 < larryruane> lightlike: the mynode that I'm running is tor-only, but to test this PR, I added a manual block-relay-only, and it's clearnet (not tor), so the PR is working! (I'm running the PR branch on the RPi mynode) 10:28 < BlueMoon> I saw that with onetry you only use it to connect it once. 10:28 < lightlike> larryruane: That's great! 10:29 < lightlike> BlueMoon: Yes, correct! 10:29 < larryruane> onetry calls `connman.OpenNetworkConnection()` on the specified address https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24170/files#diff-2ae094f9329ce9498e1b4a9cb7767945b54a33b4ee9fed4f0ba401a98e1683c1R322 which either works or it doesn't 10:30 < larryruane> addnode add calls `connman.AddNode()` which adds the node address to m_added_nodes. ... then there's a separate thread, 10:30 -!- M4rcus [~M4rcus@181.208.38.141] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 10:30 < larryruane> CConnman::ThreadOpenAddedConnections()`, repeatedly tries `OpenNetworkConnection()` on each item on this list. So it keeps retrying. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24170/files#diff-00021eed586a482abdb09d6cdada1d90115abe988a91421851960e26658bed02R2268 10:30 -!- M4rcus [~M4rcus@181.208.38.141] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:31 < lightlike> larryruane: Yes, great answer! 10:32 < lightlike> Next q: What are the different options of adding a manual-block-relay peer that this PR introduces? 10:32 < BlueMoon> Thanks!! very comprehensive response 10:33 < stickies-v> blatantly copying from your notes: 10:33 < stickies-v> - can be specified with -addnode RPC, both with the add and onetry command 10:33 < stickies-v> - can be specified with the -addnode bitcoind arg (or in bitcoin.conf) with =manual-block-relay 10:34 < larryruane> stickies-v: +1 ... and when you use the command line arg (or config file), `onetry` isn't an option 10:34 < larryruane> addnode: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24170/files#diff-2ae094f9329ce9498e1b4a9cb7767945b54a33b4ee9fed4f0ba401a98e1683c1R281 10:34 < larryruane> arg (or config): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24170/files#diff-b1e19192258d83199d8adaa5ac31f067af98f63554bfdd679bd8e8073815e69dR445 10:35 < lightlike> Right. It's a bit strange that "addnode" is both a RPC and a command line arg, because you can't just add additional parameters to it and need to do some string parsing instead... 10:36 < larryruane> (oops sorry I think that second link references the wrong line number.. but it's close to there) 10:36 < schmidty> That’s helpful, thanks larryruane 10:36 < lightlike> On the other hand, the startup option is probably more important than the RPC, because people might want to have a fixed list of manually added peers in their bitcoin.conf 10:38 < lightlike> larryruane: Yes, "onetry" probably doesn't make a lot of sense as a bitcoind arg. 10:39 < lightlike> Next question: The PR introduces a new connection type MANUAL_BLOCK_RELAY that combines the properties of MANUAL and BLOCK_RELAY peers. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having an extra connection type, as opposed to combining the logic of the existing ones? 10:40 < svav> You can give it specific properties for security purposes, e.g. does not broadcast addresses. 10:40 < lightlike> (I originally considered to not have an extra connection type) 10:41 < BlueMoon> <3 10:41 < yashraj> we don't want to punish MANUAL_BLOCK_RELAY peers for certain behaviour we would punish BLOCK_RELAY peers? 10:42 < larryruane> I think an advantage of having a type, instead of just a bool (to enable block-relay) is that having a type makes it more extensible, in case we want to add more manual connection types in the future 10:43 < lightlike> yashraj: Yes, that's correct. But that could have been coded in as well, without extending the ConnectionType Enum, just by combining the features of the existing MANUAL and BLOCK RELAY connection types. 10:45 < lightlike> My reason was that this makes the code easier to read and argue about. The "flattened" enum of connection types was introduced in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19316 , which simplified the logic a lot (it was really convoluted before, if I remember correctly). 10:46 < lightlike> I think one downside is that if we decide to combine more connection types over time, this enum could become too long (there are many combinatorial possibilities, even if most don't make sense). 10:47 < sipa> I think the underlying theory behind that enum is exactly that we expect that newly added features in the connection logic will not result in combinatorial explosions in it. 10:47 < stickies-v> I think John summarizes the essence of the problem quite well in #19316: "I think we definitely don't want a bitmask of different connection capabilities. That leads to an combinatorial explosion of connection types that you need to either test or explicitly disallow." 10:47 < stickies-v> oh well it's been summarized here already too, sorry 10:48 < larryruane> I think flatter is better in general! even if (I guess this is the disadvantage) you have to test for (for example) `MANUAL` _or_ `MANUAL_BLOCK_RELAY` in many places ... but you can hide that in a single function (which I think you did) 10:49 < lightlike> larryruane: yes, that's correct, "IsBlockRelayConn()" 10:49 < lightlike> ok, let's move on to the last question: 10:49 < lightlike> BIP324, encrypted p2p traffic, is another privacy-enhancing feature currently under development and review. What types of attacks that this PR tries to mitigate are fixed by BIP324? Which ones aren’t? 10:50 < lightlike> (there is some discussion in the PR on whether BIP324 makes this obsolete) 10:51 < larryruane> just so I'm clear, the alternative would have been to _not_ add `MANUAL_BLOCK_RELAY` but instead store a "block-relay" boolean with the connection object (which is only meaningful if the type is `MANUAL`? 10:51 < larryruane> (oh sorry I'm too late with that question, feel free to ignore) 10:52 < lightlike> larryruane: yes, something like this was my first idea. But it seemed to go against the spirit of the #19316 refactoring, so I decided against it. 10:54 < larryruane> not to provide too much of a cheat :) but did sipa: answer the last question here? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24170#issuecomment-1122470916 10:55 < vnprc> I'm not very familiar with BIP324 but it looks like it might prevent an attacker from eavesdropping on ADDR messages, which can be used to draw a P2P connection graph. ADDR messages are not relayed over block-relay-only connections so this mitigation would be redundant over an encrypted block-relay-only connection. 10:55 < larryruane> he explains what this PR (24170) fixes that BIP324 doesn't 10:55 < lightlike> yes, I think so, to a great part :-) 10:56 < lightlike> But I also think that there some things this PR helps with that are completely orthogonal to BIP324. 10:56 < sipa> also just to make sure this isn't misunderstood: the advantage of encryption as such is very limited, as attackers can just spin up their own nodes 10:56 < sipa> (in this context) 10:57 < lightlike> While manual nodes are "trusted" I think that even if I trust a node not to DOS me or withhold blocks, I may still don't want them to send my transactions over clearnet. 10:58 < BlueMoon> I am reading the documents, thank you, I have learned a lot, next time I will read everything in full, you are very kind. 10:58 < lightlike> *may still not want them to know about my transactions, sry 10:59 < larryruane> sipa: so I understand... with BIP324, an attacker who watches the traffic in and out of a node doesn't know what's being sent and received, but if the attacker connects to that node as a normal peer, then he gets a pretty good idea 10:59 < lightlike> hopefully, there'll be some review clubs about BIP324 in the future, I'd be very interested! 11:00 < sipa> right exactly; bip324 is opportunistic encryption with whomever you're connected to, preventing others from reading the traffic. It doesn't (by itself) have any means of ascertaining that who you're talking is (a) who you intend to talk to or (b) is honest 11:00 < svav> Does BIP324 fix eclipse attacks? 11:00 < lightlike> Time's up. Thanks everyone for participating! 11:00 -!- don2 [~don@8.44.63.122] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:00 < stickies-v> thank you for hosting lightlike! 11:00 < sipa> svav: no 11:00 < larryruane> thank you lightlike: !! this was great 11:01 < svav> Ok thanks sipa 11:01 < Bitcoin_Hodler> thank you... till next time! 11:01 < svav> Thanks all 11:01 < evanlinjin> thank you! I will try to turn up consistenty 11:01 < M4rcus> Thanks!! 11:01 < BlueMoon> Thanks!! :] 11:01 -!- BlueMoon [~BlueMoon@dgb3.dgbiblio.unam.mx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:01 -!- Bitcoin_Hodler [~Bitcoin_H@45-27-31-99.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:01 -!- M4rcus [~M4rcus@181.208.38.141] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:02 < vnprc> lightlike: ty for implementing this feature and hosting this meeting. 11:03 -!- vnprc [~vnprc@136.56.39.155] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:03 -!- svav [~svav@82-69-86-143.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:04 -!- benteiko [~benteiko@218-101-92-146.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 11:07 < larryruane> #endmeeting 11:08 -!- yashraj [yashraj@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/yashraj] has quit [] 11:14 -!- evanlinjin [~evanlinji@gateway/tor-sasl/evanlinjin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19 -!- sanya [~sanya@109-93-70-113.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit 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15:11 -!- Topic for #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews: Meeting every Wednesday at 17:00 | See https://bitcoincore.reviews/ for details | This channel is logged 15:11 -!- Topic set by jnewbery [] [Mon May 24 09:24:20 2021] 15:11 [Users #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews] 15:11 [ _0x0ff ] [ dergoegge ] [ greypw254600 ] [ koolazer ] [ pinheadmz ] [ stick_ ] 15:11 [ _aj_ ] [ dhruv ] [ harding ] [ laanwj ] [ qubenix ] [ stickies-v ] 15:11 [ achow101 ] [ djinni` ] [ hebasto_ ] [ Landryl ] [ real_or_random_] [ takinbo ] 15:11 [ adiabat_ ] [ dlb76 ] [ Henry151_ ] [ larryruane ] [ realtbast[m] ] [ TheRec ] 15:11 [ admin1 ] [ dongcarl ] [ hugohn_ ] [ lightlike ] [ robot-dreams ] [ theStack ] 15:11 [ ajonas_ ] [ dunxen ] [ jamesob ] [ livestradamus ] [ RubenSomsen ] [ uasf ] 15:11 [ amiti_ ] [ elichai2 ] [ jarolrod_ ] [ lowhope ] [ ryanofsky_ ] [ vincenzopalazzo] 15:11 [ avril ] [ emzy ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ ls55 ] [ S3RK_ ] [ waxwing_ ] 15:11 [ b10c_ ] [ fanquake_ ] [ jesseposner ] [ luke-jr ] [ sandipndev123 ] [ willcl_ark ] 15:11 [ Bayer[m] ] [ FelixWeis ] [ jkczyz_ ] [ MacroFake_ ] [ sanket1729 ] [ windsok ] 15:11 [ blkncd ] [ fjahr_ ] [ jnewbery_ ] [ MatrixBot1 ] [ sanket_cell ] [ yakshaver ] 15:11 [ brunoerg ] [ frankof ] [ johnzweng ] [ meshcoll- ] [ schmidty_ ] [ Zenton ] 15:11 [ calvinalvin ] [ ghost43 ] [ jomat ] [ metallicc99 ] [ sdaftuar ] 15:11 [ Common_ ] [ gleb745438685] [ jonasschnelli] [ michaelfolkson] [ shesek ] 15:11 [ danielabrozzoni] [ glix ] [ josibake___ ] [ Murch ] [ sipa ] 15:11 [ darosior ] [ glozow ] [ jrawsthorne_ ] [ neha ] [ siv2r[m] ] 15:11 [ david-bakin ] [ gnusha ] [ kanzure ] [ notmandatory_ ] [ sloorush ] 15:11 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews: Total of 97 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 97 normal] 15:12 -!- Channel #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews created Wed May 19 12:43:59 2021 15:14 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:14 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews was synced in 185 secs 15:20 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14d:5281:8ae2:e9a0:34e1:9d52:e288] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 15:35 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@user/gnusha] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 15:35 -!- Topic for #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews: Meeting every Wednesday at 17:00 | See https://bitcoincore.reviews/ for details | This channel is logged 15:35 -!- Topic set by jnewbery [] [Mon May 24 09:24:20 2021] 15:35 [Users #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews] 15:35 [ _0x0ff ] [ dergoegge ] [ greypw254600 ] [ koolazer ] [ pinheadmz ] [ stick_ ] 15:35 [ _aj_ ] [ dhruv ] [ harding ] [ laanwj ] [ qubenix ] [ stickies-v ] 15:35 [ achow101 ] [ djinni` ] [ hebasto_ ] [ Landryl ] [ real_or_random_] [ takinbo ] 15:35 [ adiabat_ ] [ dlb76 ] [ Henry151_ ] [ larryruane ] [ realtbast[m] ] [ TheRec ] 15:35 [ admin1 ] [ dongcarl ] [ hugohn_ ] [ lightlike ] [ robot-dreams ] [ theStack ] 15:35 [ ajonas_ ] [ dunxen ] [ jamesob ] [ livestradamus ] [ RubenSomsen ] [ uasf ] 15:35 [ amiti_ ] [ elichai2 ] [ jarolrod_ ] [ lowhope ] [ ryanofsky_ ] [ vincenzopalazzo] 15:35 [ avril ] [ emzy ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ ls55 ] [ S3RK_ ] [ waxwing_ ] 15:35 [ b10c_ ] [ fanquake_ ] [ jesseposner ] [ luke-jr ] [ sandipndev123 ] [ willcl_ark ] 15:35 [ Bayer[m] ] [ FelixWeis ] [ jkczyz_ ] [ MacroFake_ ] [ sanket1729 ] [ windsok ] 15:35 [ blkncd ] [ fjahr_ ] [ jnewbery_ ] [ MatrixBot1 ] [ sanket_cell ] [ yakshaver ] 15:35 [ brunoerg ] [ frankof ] [ johnzweng ] [ meshcoll- ] [ schmidty_ ] [ Zenton ] 15:35 [ calvinalvin ] [ ghost43 ] [ jomat ] [ metallicc99 ] [ sdaftuar ] 15:35 [ Common_ ] [ gleb745438685] [ jonasschnelli] [ michaelfolkson] [ shesek ] 15:35 [ danielabrozzoni] [ glix ] [ josibake___ ] [ Murch ] [ sipa ] 15:35 [ darosior ] [ glozow ] [ jrawsthorne_ ] [ neha ] [ siv2r[m] ] 15:35 [ david-bakin ] [ gnusha ] [ kanzure ] [ notmandatory_ ] [ sloorush ] 15:35 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews: Total of 97 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 97 normal] 15:36 -!- Channel #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews created Wed May 19 12:43:59 2021 15:36 -!- 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