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09:55 < larryruane> we'll start in about 5 minutes https://bitcoincore.reviews/24858
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09:56 < rebroad> test
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10:00 < larryruane> #startmeeting
10:00 < josie[m]> hi
10:00 < michaelfolkson> hi
10:00 < larryruane> Hi everyone! today we'll review PR 24858, notes are here: https://bitcoincore.reviews/24858
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10:01 < Amirreza> Hi
10:01 < BlueMoon> Hello!
10:02 < hernanmarino_> Hello everyone 
10:02 < pablo_martin> Hello!
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10:02 < Lov3r_Of_Bitcoin> hello
10:02 < rewe> Hi I'm new here
10:03 < brunoerg> hi!!
10:03 < brunoerg> rewe: welcome! 
10:03 < larryruane> Is anyone here for the first time? Please feel free to say hi! Welcome, rewe !
10:03 < pablo_martin> yes, first time here... hi all!
10:04 < hernanmarino_> Welcome Pablo !
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10:04 < glozow> hi
10:04 < rebroad> first time here also
10:04 < adam2k> 👋 hello
10:04 < larryruane> Welcome, Pablo! And rebroad!
10:05 < rebroad> there's a PR I wanted to ask about - to try to find out why it's not being given any attention
10:05 < larryruane> I'm having network trouble, Gloria, could you be host for a minute or 2?
10:06 < glozow> sure
10:06 < glozow> Did you all get a chance to review the PR or look at the notes? how about a y/n
10:06 < BlueMoon> I read a bit, it's interesting.
10:06 < brunoerg> y for the notes
10:07 < pablo_martin> yes glozow
10:07 < schmidty_> hola
10:07 < larryruane> glozow: (i'm back, thank you!)
10:07 < josie[m]> y - went through the PR and also read the notes
10:07 < glozow> Great! could any of you summarize what this PR is doing?
10:07 < hernanmarino_> notes n , tested the fix y 
10:08 < adam2k> y
10:09 < michaelfolkson> Did you reproduce the issue hernanmarino_?
10:09 < hernanmarino_> michaelfolkson: yes
10:09 < michaelfolkson> Cool
10:09 < josie[m]> this PR is fixes a bug where extra bytes are added to a serialized during reindexing. the extra bytes cause an error to  be printed to the log when it is later de-serialized 
10:09 < BlueMoon> It deals with the files where the block information is stored, how the size calculation is incorrect.
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10:10 < adam2k> There is a deserialization error in the log file that appears when doing a reindexing of the blknnnn.dat files.  It's not fatal, but it's confusing and possibly alarming for people that see the issue in their logs.
10:10 < josie[m]> s/serialized/serialized block/
10:10 < larryruane> josie[m]: adam2k: BlueMoon: yes!
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10:11 < BlueMoon> :)
10:11 < larryruane> Before we get into the questions, does anyone have any questions about the Notes? Anything unclear (or wrong)?
10:12 < michaelfolkson> Maybe this should be asked later but you can explain "A reindex, if it occurs, always happens immediately after the node starts up, before any blocks have been added from peers."?
10:12 < josie[m]> one thing that was a little unclear to me: the first few questions in the notes didn't seem directly related to the PR (tho helpful background knowledge to have)
10:12 < michaelfolkson> Why?
10:14 < larryruane> michaelfolkson: Reindex is requested by the user (node operator) as a configuration option (command line or in the config file, tho you probably would never put it in the file, or else it would reindex on every startup!),
10:15 < larryruane> and if specified (`-reindex` or `-reindex=1`), it will happen when the node first starts up ... after that process completes (which takes hours usually), then the node syncs with its peers, and you'll add more blocks as usual
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10:16 < larryruane> josie[m]: yes, that's my fault, I thought it would be helpful to make sure people had the background needed before jumping into this particular PR
10:16 < Amirreza> A question. Notes say that blk???.dat files are 128 MiG but store 60 or more blocks. Why 60? I imagined the number is much higher while block size are at most 1 MiG.
10:17 < larryruane> Amirreza: well actually, since the segwit upgrade, blocks are almost always larger than 1 MiB .. they're often close to 2
10:17 < hernanmarino_> amirezza : that 's not the case really
10:18 < BlueMoon> I find this information on IBD very interesting. https://btctranscripts.com/andreas-antonopoulos/2018-10-23-andreas-antonopoulos-initial-blockchain-download/
10:18 < michaelfolkson> Yeah the SegWit block size -> block weight https://jimmysong.medium.com/understanding-segwit-block-size-fd901b87c9d4
10:18 < Amirreza> larryruane: Thanks, I should read more about segwit.
10:20 < larryruane> Thanks, BlueMoon: and michaelfolkson: - very useful links! Okay, here's question 2 (but feel free to bring up what we've already covered): Which parts of the bitcoind data directory are not derived from other parts of the data directory? What are some examples of parts that are?
10:20 < larryruane> (I should have said, "... that are part of the data directory")
10:22 < michaelfolkson> There are things not related to this PR. Like banlist.dat and peers.dat
10:23 < michaelfolkson> peers.dat must be updated from banlist.dat (is that what you mean by "derived")?
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10:24 < hernanmarino_> Regarding this PR , the index is derived from the blocks
10:25 < larryruane> michaelfolkson: that's really good, I actually hadn't thought of P2P! I was thinking more that the `blocks` directory is not derived from other stuff in the datadir, but like ... yes, as hernanmarino_: said, exactly
10:25 < larryruane> the block index is derived from the blocks files ... also the chainstate, which is the UTXO set
10:28 < larryruane> Things in the data directory that are derived are, in a way, to make performance reasonable ... if the node is looking for information about a block (and has its hash), it would be impractical to linearly search the blocks files (blknnnn.dat)! 
10:28 < michaelfolkson> For the new people the data directory: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Data_directory
10:28 < BlueMoon> Thanks!!
10:29 < larryruane> michaelfolkson: +1 thanks! Okay how about question 3: "Why are blocks in the block files disordered?"
10:30 < adam2k> The blocks are added as they come in through the network, so there is no guarantee on order.
10:30 < BlueMoon> It's not necessary from what I've read, and each of these block files has a marker indicating the size of the block file, I imagine they are accessed via an index.
10:32 < josie[m]> the blk*.dat files have orphan blocks as well, which means we wouldn't expect a strict ordering
10:32 < michaelfolkson> "It is perfectly possible that *.blk files contains gaps of zeroes, or even partially written blocks" https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/49615/how-can-you-tell-if-youre-at-the-end-of-an-incomplete-blk-dat-file
10:32 < larryruane> adam2k: yes exactly, a long time ago, the blocks were ordered, but initial block download (IBD) got a major performance improvement by a feature called headers-first download
10:33 < blocknum256> The order of the blocks in the block files is set by the order you get them from peers during the IBD
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10:34 < larryruane> So the node first downloads only headers (which are only 80 bytes each), figures out the best chain (assuming the blocks turn out to be valid), knows order of the blocks, so can request many blocks simultaneously from different peers ... and their reply times are kind of random .. so the blocks end up out of order
10:34 < larryruane> blocknum256: yes
10:35 < larryruane> (again, feel free to keep discussing, even if I go on...) Question 4: "What is CBlockFileInfo used for?"
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10:36 < nassersaazi> larryruane: just for clarity....does that mean the headers are ordered?
10:37 < BlueMoon> Used to get information about the last block of files; blocks, size, heights, time....
10:37 < adam2k> CBlockFileInfo is a class that manages information about what is contained within the block files.  Things like the number of blocks.
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10:37 < josie[m]> CBlockFileInfo contains metadata about a block file, min and max block height in the file, timestamps, size, etc
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10:38 < michaelfolkson> That's what it contains but what is it used for? :) (I'm still looking)
10:39 < larryruane> nassersaazi: Yes the headers come in ordered by height, and there are many in a single message (getheaders P2P message) .. so the node basically says "I know about block hash X, give me up to N headers that build on block X"
10:40 < larryruane> josie[m]: yes, there's one of those for each `blknnnn.dat` file ... are they persisted to disk?
10:41 < adam2k> it looks like that class is used in several places, like within the blockstorage.cpp there are methods like LoadBlockIndexDB and WriteBlockIndexDB.
10:41 < BlueMoon> CBlockFileInfo is used to obtain the block file information entry for a block file.
10:42 < larryruane> adam2k: yes exactly, they're written out to LevelDB, part of the "block index" ... BlueMoon: yes!
10:42 < BlueMoon> :)
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10:42 < josie[m]> larryruane: hm, not sure about on disk.. tho it does have a serialize method that looks like it outputs json 
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10:44 < josie[m]> does levelDB write to disk? i thought it was an in memory db 
10:44 < larryruane> josie[m]: I don't think it's json .. but yes, anytime you see those serialization methods, you know this data structure is getting saved to (and read from) disk or sent over (and received from) the network
10:44 < larryruane> josie[m]: it's both, it caches in memory but also persists to disk
10:44 < josie[m]> larryruane: cool, TIL!
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10:45 < larryruane> so if you look in datadir/blocks/index you'll see those *.ldb files, those are leveldb
10:46 < larryruane> ok let's see.. question 5 "What is reindexing, and how does it differ from IBD (initial block download)?"
10:48 < adam2k> According to the help cmd "Rebuild chain state and block index from the blk*.dat files on disk. This will also rebuild active optional indexes."
10:49 < michaelfolkson> It is almost like restarting IBD but with blocks you already have stored
10:49 < adam2k> Does that mean it does not re-download the blockchain from the network and use your local file storage instead?
10:49 < larryruane> yes, good, reindexing sources blocks from local files, IBD sources blocks from peers
10:49 < blocknum256> It rebuilds the index of blocks based on the blk*. dat files saved in . bitcoin/blocks
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10:50 < larryruane> adam2k: yes, so depending on your network speed, reindex could be quite a bit faster than IBD
10:50 < hernanmarino_> adam2k: yes
10:50 < larryruane> question 6: How does pruning interact with reindexing?
10:51 < josie[m]> +1 to other answers, but in how it's different from IBD, reindexing does not verify the blocks, right? its assumed the blk files on disk have already been verified? 
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10:51 < larryruane> (sorry I'm rushing a little, trying to have time to discuss the PR)
10:51 < michaelfolkson> If the reindex fails (multiple times) you'd have to instruct it to start IBD afresh. It wouldn't do it automatically?
10:51 < adam2k> I was looking at this earlier.  I have a pruned client and it appears that I don't have blknnnn.dat files that go beyond the memory limit that I set.
10:51 < larryruane> josie[m]: I'm pretty sure it does verify the blocks
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10:52 < josie[m]> larryruane: ah, that makes sense, because in the case of a pruned client it is requesting those blocks from peers? 
10:52 < adam2k> So I'm assuming when I reindex with a pruned node I would need to do a partial IBD up until the point where I have the blknnnn.dat files?
10:52 < larryruane> michaelfolkson: I think reindexing does as much as it can (using the blk files), and then the node goes into its usual "sync with my peers" .. which may amount to IBD
10:52 < blocknum256> Q6: Since pruning raws block data for blocks older than a givven height, I think indexes are broke at that point
10:53 < josie[m]> adam2k: i think that's correct, but im guessing you wouldnt store blk files on disk in the case of a pruned node, you would just use the blocks to build the index? 
10:53 < larryruane> adam2k: The reindex request (`-reindex` on the command line) would actually fail if the node is pruned
10:54 < michaelfolkson> larryruane: I'd guess the optimal behavior would be to after multiple corruptions or whatever just drop all blocks and start afresh without input from user
10:54 < michaelfolkson> Don't think it does that though
10:54 < michaelfolkson> I think the user would have to decide that
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10:55 < adam2k> hmm...ok, maybe I don't have something configured correctly because I can see the blknnnn.dat files on disc and it seems like I can reindex without any failures.
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10:55 < larryruane> michaelfolkson: Yes it does do that, or very close.. like say reindex is able to process the first 100,000 blocks and then ran into some kind of corruption ... it will automatically IBD starting at 100,001
10:56 < larryruane> adam2k: is your node pruned?
10:57 < adam2k> I know this is off topic, but in my bitcoin.conf I set `prune=10204` isn't that all that I need to do in order to prune?
10:57 < michaelfolkson> larryruane: So it detects when the corruption happened and drops blocks from the corruption onwards and requests them from peers? That's neat if so
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10:57 < larryruane> yes, and you're able to `-reindex`? I'll have to try that!
10:58 < josie[m]> larryruane, adam2k: im pretty sure you can run reindex on a pruned node. i just tried by adding prune=1000 in bitcoin.conf and then restarted bitcoind with -reindex 
10:58 < adam2k> yeah, I'm trying now and it appears to work.  I have to run a pruned node because I only have 512GB of disc space total.
10:58 < larryruane> ok that's cool, I didn't know that! I wonder how that works?
10:59 < larryruane> Okay we're about out of time, any comments on the bug that the PR fixes, or how the PR fixes it?
10:59 < josie[m]> i think it behaves the same as IBD (again, TIL), but it deletes older blocks as normal once you hit the pruned size. but yeah, i also need to play with this a bit more
10:59 < larryruane> (feel free to stay on to continue to discuss, I'll stay for a while)
10:59 < BlueMoon> No comment, thank you very much for so much valuable information. :)
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11:00 < michaelfolkson> Erm bug should definitely be fixed :)
11:00 < blocknum256> larryruane: Thank you for your time!
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11:00 < josie[m]> thanks for hosting larryruane! this seemed like a very small change at first, but the discussion on the PR was really interesting 
11:00 < Lov3r_Of_Bitcoin> thank you
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11:00 < hernanmarino_> Thanks Larry 
11:01 < svav> Thanks larryruane
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11:01 < larryruane> #endmeeting
11:01 < adam2k> larryruane I was looking through your comments on the PR and the suggestions.  I agree with your suggested change to put the check in FindBlockPos instead of the proposed SaveBlockToDisk.
11:02 < michaelfolkson> We didn't discuss your alternative approach to fixing or Russell's, I guess that's an exercise for the reader :)
11:02 < adam2k> thanks larryruane!
11:02 < michaelfolkson> Thanks larryruane!
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11:02 < pablo_martin> larryruane: Thanks!
11:02 < larryruane> yes sorry, I always write too many questions! michaelfolkson: you're very welcome, thanks for your excellent comments
11:02 < josie[m]> it seemed like most of the reviewers favored some flavor of changing `FindBlockPos` as opposed to `SaveBlockToDisk`
11:03 < adam2k> +1
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11:04 < josie[m]> also the bonus questions was really interesting to me.. it looks like we can assume it's 4 because there is a static_assert in `src/compat/assumptions.h` 
11:04 < larryruane> yes to me, those 8 bytes of serialization header (the terms are unfortunate, because "header" means those 8 bytes, but also can mean the 80-byte block header) are a layout detail, and it seems preferred to hide those details within `FindBlockPos` 
11:05 < josie[m]> which, iiuc, a static assert fails at compile time.. so if we were trying to compile for a system where that wasn't true, it would fail
11:05 < larryruane> josie[m]: yes, exactly! that's the answer i was looking for! I just learned about that file myself a week or 2 ago, it's a cool idea
11:05 < josie[m]> i also recently learned about static_asserts 
11:06 < larryruane> josie[m]: right, static asserts are very cool, they catch things at compile time instead of having to encounter the condition at runtime (which you may almost never encounter, depending on where the assert is)
11:08 < larryruane> I'm not sure how they are implemented here (or in c++ in general), but I actually implemented static assert in a C project a long time ago, and it's kind of crazy the kind of thing you have to do ... IIRC, one way to do it was something like you'd force a divide-by 0 of an expression that can be evaluated at compile-time
11:08 < sipa> libsecp256k1 has compile-time asserts in C: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/blob/master/src/assumptions.h
11:08 < larryruane> so you'd get this weird "divide-by-zero" compile error, and you'd just have to know OHHH, that's a static assert (well, it would also give you a line number)
11:10 < larryruane> oh hi sipa: yes, that's another way, a negative array index! Do you know how it's done in bitcoind, is it part of the c++ standard library or something?
11:10 < sipa> bitcoind is in C++, you can just use static_assert.
11:10 < sipa> But C89, which libsecp256k1 is written in, doesn't have a static_assert.
11:11 < sipa> (sorry if I'm missing some context)
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11:11 < larryruane> no you're exactly on context... wow this line, that's some magic there! https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/blob/master/src/assumptions.h#L77
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11:12 < larryruane> So does secp256k1 not have a `static_assert` macro that can be used anywhere in the project?
11:12 < sipa> I don't believe it's possible to write such a macro.
11:13 < sipa> Or at least, I wouldn't know how.
11:13 < sipa> assumptions.h is the only place in libsecp256k1 where such an emulated static_assert is used.
11:13 < larryruane> no I implemented in C (a long time ago)
11:14 < sipa> ah, ok
11:14 < larryruane> if you'd like I could make a PR
11:14 < larryruane> (no pressure to merge it obviously!)
11:14 < sipa> I don't think there is a need.
11:14 < larryruane> ok
11:15 < larryruane> i guess the one unfortunate thing about the way it's done in secp256k1 is that if there is a violation, it may not be immediately obvious what the problem is
11:16 < sipa> The compile error would list assumptions.h, which shouldn't be too hard to locate.
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11:16 < sipa> Of course a real static_assert would be better, but C89 doesn't have that.
11:17 < sipa> (C11 does)
11:17 < larryruane> +1
11:22 < larryruane> sipa: it was something like this: https://gist.github.com/LarryRuane/ce53d47588bd19f4c76e801b955ea729
11:23 < larryruane> but i think you need a separate version for outside of a function ... but what i like about this is you can put the static assertion close to where you're depending on it
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14:49 < stick> I guess you could use _Static_assert in libsecp256k1
14:49 < stick> and just wrap it in
14:49 < stick> #if __STDC_VERSION__ > 201112L
14:49 < sipa> Yeah, that'd work.
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14:51 < stick> more elaborate solution from SO:
14:51 < stick> #if defined( __STDC_VERSION__ ) && __STDC_VERSION__ >= 201112L
14:51 < stick>     #define WE_HAVE_STATIC_ASSERT 1
14:51 < stick> #endif
14:51 < stick> #if WE_HAVE_STATIC_ASSERT
14:51 < stick>     _Static_assert(0, "Test");
14:51 < stick> #endif
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15:52 < effexzi> larryruane: jjjjvvv
15:52 < effexzi> MCmv
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 28 00:00:33 2022