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09:56 < larryruane_> we will be starting in about 5 minutes
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10:00 < larryruane_> #startmeeting
10:00 < larryruane_> Hi!
10:01 < willcl_ark> hi
10:01 < lightlike> hi
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10:01 < glozow> hi
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10:01 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> hi
10:01 < larryruane_> Feel free to say hi, even if you're just lurking! Any first-time review club participants with us today?
10:01 < theStack> hi
10:02 < larryruane_> This week's PR is 25957: "wallet: fast rescan with BIP157 block filters for descriptor wallets". Notes and questions at https://bitcoincore.reviews/25957.html
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10:03 < juancama> hi
10:03 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> This one was super tough for me, very over my head
10:03 < ccdle12> hi
10:03 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> reading over BIP158
10:03 < larryruane_> welcome to all! So yes, this one requires some background, but luckily we have the PR author with us, @theStack
10:04 < larryruane_> he will explain EVERYTHING :)
10:04 < larryruane_> Feel free to jump in with questions at any time, doesn't have to be related to the main discussion thread
10:04 < theStack> *blush* *cough*
10:04 < furszy> hi, lurking here.
10:04 < hernanmarino> Hi 
10:04 < larryruane_> So what are some general impressions of the PR, other than it being tough?
10:05 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> its a performance boost
10:05 < willcl_ark> It's nice to make slow operations faster!
10:05 < larryruane_> Did anyone have a chance to review the PR? Concept, approach, tested ACK, or NACK?
10:06 < willcl_ark> The wallet has historically suffered from lack of various indexes, so nice to use this one
10:06 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I reviewed and read the code, didnt get to testing
10:06 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I think I will today just to be thurough and practice testing prs
10:07 < larryruane_> willcl_ark: interesting point, are there some other indices the wallet should have? use of existing ones, or new ones? (I know slightly off-topic)
10:07 < larryruane_> (off-topic is our speciality here :) )
10:08 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> question: the goal of this is to speed up the collection of txoutputs that a wallet address owns correct?
10:08 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> *a descriptor wallet
10:09 < theStack> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: ad "reading over BIP158": i think understanding how exactly the filters are constructed in detail (BIP158) is not mandatory for reviewing this PR; knowing the basic idea should be sufficient
10:09 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> is the basic idea faster filtering?
10:09 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: yes, and also to identify transactions that pay TO the wallet (or more precisely, that the wallet has watch-only addresses of, or spending keys to)
10:10 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> stack and larry: ty
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10:11 < willcl_ark> Also it seems wasteful to be able to offer fast scans to SPV clients, but then to not use the filters for ourselves :)
10:11 < larryruane_> is that correct, @theStack? identifying transactions that either pay to this wallet (outputs), or are paid by this wallet (inputs)?
10:12 < larryruane_> willcl_ark: yes, that's how I think about it, if we have this index to benefit light client peers of ours, why not use it to benefit ourselves? no extra cost (other than a little more code)
10:13 < larryruane_> that leads into question 2, Why would a node operator enable BIP 158 filters (-blockfilterindex=1)? Does the motivation make sense?
10:13 < theStack> larryruane_: yes! the method checking if a tx is relevant for the wallet has the nice name `CWallet::AddToWalletIfInvolvingMe` (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/fc44d1796e4df5824423d7d13de3082fe204db7d/src/wallet/wallet.cpp#L1093)
10:14 < theStack> and a bit below there is the condition `(fExisted || IsMine(tx) || IsFromMe(tx))`
10:14 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> node operator would enable this to speed things up on rescanning
10:15 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: yes, once this PR is merged.. What about before?
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10:15 < willcl_ark> A few reasons: to offer better privacy to light clients connected to you, lower resource usage for yourself (as the server) and no ability for clients to DoS the server by requesting you monitor many unique filters (like BIP37 can do), and now faster rescans for yourself too!
10:15 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> before? I'm not sure
10:16 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> oh thats right, +1 will, blockfilters are better for privacy
10:16 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I didn't know about the reduced DoS. That is cool
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10:17 < larryruane_> willcl_ark: good answer, before this PR, I would say it's providing a community service, not sure if there's any reason other than altruism (before this PR)
10:18 < larryruane_> so actually, this PR may lead to more nodes providing this service, since the incremental cost is smaller to do so!
10:19 < furszy> larryruane_, theStack: small add: not only txes that are sent from or received on the wallet are important. The wallet can watch scripts as well.
10:19 < larryruane_> side question, is it possible to enable the building and maintaining this index (`-blockfilterindex=1`) but not provide the BIP 157 peer-to-peer service?
10:19 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I'm going to say yes, because it requires a network flag thing?
10:19 < willcl_ark> I think yes, as you have to enable `peerblockfilters` too to serve them?
10:19 < theStack> furszy: good point
10:20 < theStack> willcl_ark: +1
10:20 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> people can abuse these things that signal to eachother, I forget what they are called though
10:20 < larryruane_> willcl_ark: yes exactly
10:21 < larryruane_> are there any downsides to enabling BIP 158 block filters? (question 3)
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10:22 < theStack> side-note: for people wanting to learn more details about block filters and BIP 157/158, there has been a row of interesting PR review clubs about that in 2020 (i think https://bitcoincore.reviews/18877 was the first one)
10:23 < willcl_ark> Not quite answering the question directly, but they do require more (client) bandwidth than BIP37 filters, IIRC
10:23 < lightlike> they require some disk space
10:23 < larryruane_> I think conceptually BIP 158 filter is similar to a bloom filter, but better for this use case (more efficient), but I don't know the details
10:23 < larryruane_> lightlike: +1
10:23 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> +1 lightlike
10:24 < willcl_ark> but for a node operator with adequate CPU, RAM and disk space overhead, I'd say not many downsides
10:24 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> is true that any index option requires rescan and additional disk space?
10:24 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I remember enabling txindex and having to wait.
10:26 < larryruane_> and more side node, the BIP 37 bloom filter had the light client provide the bloom filter to its server (the full node), and that was different for each light client (so the server had to remember a bunch of them), whereas with BIP 157/158, the server generates just one for each block, and can send it (the same filter) to ALL of its light clients
10:26 < larryruane_> so it's much less of a burden on (what i'm calling) the server (full node)
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10:27 < willcl_ark> yes enabling the index requires a rescan to build the filters for each block
10:28 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: I think the term rescan is specific to the wallet (?) ... but yes, enabling txindex, or the block filters, requires reading all the blocks again
10:28 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> will: ty
10:29 < larryruane_> should we move on? (feel free to continue previous discussions) ... question 4, Why would a node operator enable BIP 158 filters (-blockfilterindex=1)? Does the motivation make sense?
10:30 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> yea, net performance boost
10:30 < larryruane_> oh I'm sorry, that copy-paste was wrong, question 4 is: Were you able to set up and run the PR on signet as described in the notes? Did you see a difference in performance with and without -blockfilterindex?
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10:32 < willcl_ark> I did not test it yet myself, but noticed that someone called LarryRuane on GH had some interesting signet results :)
10:33 < larryruane_> I myself did this, it's easier than enabling blockfilterindex on mainnet, you can build the blockfilter index in signet in a few minutes
10:34 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I think I read someone tested it on mainnet. I plan to do so.
10:34 < larryruane_> But for me, signet was slower with the PR than without the PR! Any ideas why that might be?
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10:34 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> Oh I read this, because there are empty blocks, which increases false positives?
10:35 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> signet has a lot of empty blocks I think
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10:35 < larryruane_> Yes I think so, and that's my guess.. but it doesn't increase false positives
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10:36 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> oh derp
10:36 < larryruane_> it ends up using the block filter to check each block (rather than checking each block directly), but using the filter seems to take longer than checking an empty (or near-empty) block!
10:36 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> larry: thanks for cleaning that up
10:37 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> why is that it goes through every block?
10:37 < larryruane_> PR author @theStack wrote a benchmark script https://github.com/theStack/bitcoin/blob/fast_rescan_functional_test_benchmark/test/functional/pr25957_benchmark.py
10:38 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> and so it seems like there is a threshold of how many transactions are in a block to gain a performance boost
10:38 < larryruane_> did anyone have a chance to run that? (this is question 5)
10:38 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: yes! does that suggest an optimization (to the overall optimization that this PR is)?
10:40 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I think it does
10:40 < willcl_ark> Perhaps GCSFilter::MatchInternal() is just always going to be slower than reading (nearly) empty blocks?
10:40 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> but I think that transaction count would have to be discovered?
10:41 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: +1 willcl_ark: yes I think so (I didn't analyze in detail)
10:41 < theStack> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: even if we know the transaction count, it's a bad metric to determine how long a block takes to rescan. has anyone an idea why?
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10:42 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: that's a really good point.. and technically the transaction count isn't enough, it depends on the number of tx inputs and outputs
10:42 < willcl_ark> ^
10:42 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I was going to guess the difference in wallet types
10:42 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> err address types
10:42 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ah so every transaction would have to be decoded correct to discover if it is worth it?
10:43 < larryruane_> or at least you'd need to know how many inputs and outputs there are to examine in a block ... which you don't really have easy access to
10:43 < theStack> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: yes. as an extreme example, i've seen blocks every now and then that only consist of 10 txs but are still full (each one takes 100kvbytes, which is a policy limit IIRC)
10:44 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> yea damn that isn't implicit in a block header is it
10:44 < larryruane_> personally I'd say it's not worth optimizing ... this inverted performance behavior wouldn't occur on mainnet, which is all we really care about
10:44 < willcl_ark> agree
10:44 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> yea it is starting to sound like a headache
10:45 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: +1 ... the block header does include the transaction count but that's always zero (this is why block headers are 81 bytes serialized, not 80)
10:45 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ah
10:45 < sipa> RE BIP158's GCS filter: it is indeed similar to a Bloom filter (no false negatives, a controllable rate of false positives), but more compact (iirc around 1.3x-1.4x). The downsides are the GCSs are write-once (you can't update them once created), and querying is much slower. Bloom filters are effectively O(n) for finding n elements in them. GCS are O(m+n) for finding n elements in a filter of size m.
10:46 < sipa> So Bloom filters are way faster if you're only going to do one or a few queries. But as you're querying for larger and larger number of elements, the relative downside of a GCS's performance goes down.
10:47 < larryruane_> sipa: +1 that's very helpful, TIL
10:47 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> aye ty sipa
10:47 < larryruane_> question 6: What is the advantage of descriptor wallets compared to legacy wallets, especially in the creation of the filter set? (Hint: what exact type of data do we need to put into the filter set?)
10:47 < willcl_ark> Thanks! Hmmm, I wonder why I had in my head that they used more bandwidth on the client that BIP37 filters...
10:49 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> 6: I think you need pubkeys?
10:49 < theStack> hint for answering the hint question: just look up how the block filter is created
10:49 < furszy> willcl_ark: because clients request entire blocks instead merely upload the bloom filter and receive the txes that matches it directly.
10:50 < theStack> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: right direction already, but it's "a bit more" than just pubkeys
10:50 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> save active ScriptPubKeyMans's end ranges
10:50 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ?
10:51 < sipa> Yeah BIP37 offered a way to just downloading matcing transactions in blocks. BIP157 does not, as the server judt doesn't know what it'd need to give. This is an advantage on its own, as it avoids gratuitously revealing which transactions are interesting to the client (BIP37 has terrible privacy for this reason)
10:52 < larryruane_> sipa: so the only privacy leak is that the server knows that a particular light client is interested in *something* within this block (but not which tx(s))
10:52 < larryruane_> (is that right?)
10:53 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I'm looking at FastWalletRescanFilter, is that right?
10:53 < willcl_ark> Do we create an SPKM for each pubkey in legacy wallets, for each address type, resulting in hundreds (thousands?) whereas for descriptor wallets we have 8 SPKMans, 2 for each of 4 address types, receive and change?
10:53 < larryruane_> theStack: "just look up how the block filter is created" https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/fc44d1796e4df5824423d7d13de3082fe204db7d/src/blockfilter.cpp#L187
10:54 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ah thanks
10:54 < willcl_ark> hmmm, actually IIRC legacy wallets have 1 SPKM aliased to all 8 default SPKM slots now, so I don't think thats it
10:54 < sipa> @larryruane Yes. Though obviously clients can leak information in different ways too (tx relay, for example).
10:55 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> is it some sort of delta?
10:55 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> what is a CBlockUndo?
10:56 < sipa> FWIW, I have a writeup on the analysis for the size of GCS filters (which was used to set the BIP158 parameters): https://github.com/sipa/writeups/tree/main/minimizing-golomb-filters
10:56 < willcl_ark> For descriptor wallets I know it's much easier to enumerate the set of SPKs that it involves
10:58 < larryruane_> willcl_ark: yes I think that's correct, the SPKs are already determined and broken out
10:58 < furszy> willcl_ark: pre or post migration?
10:59 < theStack> willcl_ark: yes, and especially the scriptPubKeys are saved already, exactly the thing we need to put into the filter set
10:59 < larryruane_> we're almost out of time, there are a few questions remaining (7-10) sorry we didn't get to them, any comments on those questions? or anything else?
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11:00 < theStack> 7 should be quick and easy to answer... just shout out a number :)
11:00 < larryruane_> a really good question is 9, what problem does this PR fix that the earlier PR didn't?
11:01 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> allowed non SPV nodes to run this?
11:01 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> or give full nodes the ability of a faster rescan?
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11:02 < sipa> Bitcoin Core does not implement any SPV mode.
11:02 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: no... it has to do with the top-up of the keypool, we didn't have a chance to get into that
11:02 < sipa> This PR only affects Bitcoin Core's wallet
11:02 < larryruane_> We better stop here, thank you everyone!
11:02 < larryruane_> #endmeeting
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11:03 < glozow> thank you larryruane_!
11:03 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ahhh, thanks everyone I learned a lot today
11:03 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> yea and thanks to larry for hosting
11:03 < willcl_ark> Thanks Larry!
11:03 < theStack> thanks larry!
11:03 < larryruane_> sorry we didn't get through everything, feel free to follow up here (I'll stay on for a while), and please review the PR if you have time
11:04 < larryruane_> theStack: you're welcome, and thanks for the PR!
11:04 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I'll do that, Id like to finish with the 9th question if someone would like to answer.
11:04 < glozow> Next week stickies-v is hosting on #25991: https://bitcoincore.reviews/25991
11:05 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> Before submitting PR, do you guys run the linting tools locally?
11:05 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: I should but I tend to forget to do that
11:06 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> I'm getting killed on it lol
11:06 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: "Id like to finish with the 9th question" -- the answer is in that previous PR: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15845#discussion_r343265997
11:06 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ty
11:07 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> what exactly is a keypool "top up"?
11:08 < larryruane_> this comment in the previous PR mentions 2 things left to do (not just one) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15845#issuecomment-625768563
11:08 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> is a key pool a cache of keys?
11:08 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> like precomputed keys when a wallet is made?
11:09 < larryruane_> but i think the second one isn't relevant to the descriptor wallets. (@theStack ?)
11:10 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: yes exactly, it relates to HD wallet, do you know about that? key derivation?
11:11 < larryruane_> https://blog.blockonomics.co/bitcoin-what-is-this-gap-limit-4f098e52d7e1
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11:12 < theStack> yes, the descriptor-wallet gives us already all the scriptPubKeys readily that we have to look for in blocks... for legacy wallets there was more manual work involved, which was error-prone ("did i _really_ construct all possible scriptPubKeys from the pubkeys?")
11:12 < larryruane_> https://blog.lopp.net/mind-the-bitcoin-address-gap/
11:13 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> larryruane_: I'm familiar with the concept of keys being derived off of a master pub key.
11:13 < larryruane_> theStack: +1 is that why this PR is simpler than the earlier version (15845)?
11:16 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> it seems like everyday I learn how non trivial a bitcoin wallet is
11:16 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: yes so the wallet contains a limited number of keys ahead of the most recent used, 1000 by default, but that's also per-script type and per-internal (change) and external (payment), so there are 8000 (plus those that are actually in our wallet) that we use these to test the block filter
11:16 < larryruane_> theStack: did I get that right?
11:16 < theStack> larryruane_: ad "simpler than earlier version": yes exactly! filter creation is as simple as putting each DescriptScriptPubKeyMans `m_map_script_pub_key` key into the filter
11:16 < larryruane_> (other than my poor grammar :) )
11:16 < theStack> at least initially, we still have to take care of the top-up
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11:17 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> ah so the top up happens when a new transaction gets made
11:17 < theStack> larryruane_: yes, 8000 is right... 4 * 2 * 1000
11:17 < larryruane_> i said ".. that are actually in our wallet" -- sorry no, those ARE in our wallet already (even though not yet used)
11:17 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> we want a lot of padding on addresses
11:18 < larryruane_> is there an RPC to dump out a descriptor wallet's contents in human-readable form? 
11:18 < larryruane_> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: +1
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11:19 < larryruane_> i think the default gap limit used to be 20, but now it's 1000 (in the bitcoin core wallet)
11:20 < willcl_ark> I think you'd have to chain listdescriptors and getdescriptorinfo perhaps
11:20 < theStack> larryruane_: yes, the 20 seems to originate from bip44 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0044.mediawiki#Address_gap_limit)
11:22 < larryruane_> willcl_ark: thanks
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11:27 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> The subject line of commit hash 5addab5fe570d9afece365bfff7c0b251129241f is followed by a non-empty line. Subject lines should always be followed by a blank line. How do I fix this?
11:27 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> It has something to do with my git commit message?
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11:29 < theStack> Kaizen_Kintsugi_: just amend the commit (`git commit --amend`) and put in the newline between the two lines
11:30 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> thanks Ill give that a shit
11:30 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> err shot
11:30 < theStack> whatever floats your boat :)
11:31 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> haha
11:31 < Kaizen_Kintsugi_> man, there has been like 10 pull requests since yesterday I think
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12:50 < b_1o1> Hi
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13:05 < b_1o1> Hi
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 08 00:00:14 2022