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09:56 < LarryRuane> just wondering something (for background) ... If our node makes an `AddrFetch` outbound connection, does our peer know that it's an `AddrFetch` connection? Or does an `AddrFetch` connection only mean that we restrict what we do with that peer (i.e. only a local decision)? 
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10:00 < glozow> #startmeeting
10:00 < glozow> hi
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10:00 < brunoerg> hi
10:00 < glozow> this is bitcoin core PR review club
10:00 < glozow> today we're looking at "Make AddrFetch connections to fixed seeds" https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26114
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10:01 < stickies-v> hi!
10:01 < glozow> anyone else here? feel free to say hi
10:02 < b_101> hi
10:02 < yashraj> hi
10:02 < lightlike> Hi
10:02 < araujo88> hi
10:02 < LarryRuane> hi! ... background question (sorry) -- when we make an outbound connection, it's one of those types listed here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/f59e91511a3aa8b2770eeec7034ddc1a9dec918b/src/node/connection_types.h#L17 (except for `INBOUND` of course) -- does the peer we're connecting to know which connection type *we're* making? Or does our peer only know that it's an inbound connection?
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10:03 < LarryRuane> (apologies, I had that all typed out before the meeting started!)
10:03 < glozow> Notes are in the usual place: https://bitcoincore.reviews/26114
10:03 < glozow> Did you all get a chance to review the PR or look at the notes? How about a y/n
10:03 < LarryRuane> y 0.5
10:04 < dergoegge> Hi
10:04 < stickies-v> 0.1y, I started looking at the PR but then dove into a deeper rabbit hole than expected. will mostly be lurking!
10:04 < amovfx_> hi
10:05 < amovfx_> y
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10:06 < b_101> n/y
10:06 < glozow> LarryRuane: the peer only knows that you initiated the connection. it can make a guess, but no you don't tell them anything about the type of connection
10:06 < brunoerg> looked at the notes only 
10:06 < yashraj> y, look(ing) at notes, read the PR.
10:06 < LarryRuane> glozow: +1 thank you
10:07 < glozow> We can go slowly then. Just fyi, review club is more fun when you prepare ahead of time ;)
10:07 < glozow> First question: Under what circumstances do we connect to the fixed seeds?
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10:08 < brunoerg> glozow: when node’s addrman is empty
10:09 < glozow> brunoerg: is that the only condition?
10:09 < LarryRuane> only if the DNS seeds don't provide us with any addresses?
10:09 < yashraj> +1
10:09 < brunoerg> after querying the DNS seeds
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10:10 < glozow> LarryRuane: correct. but the DNS seeds are usually very responsive! how likely would this happen??
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10:10 < amovfx_> if (m_addr_fetches.empty() && m_added_nodes.empty()
10:10 < stickies-v> the DNS seeds only work with ipv4/6?
10:10 < glozow> stickies-v: bingo
10:10 < amovfx_> stickies i think so
10:10 < brunoerg> stickies-v: +1
10:11 < LarryRuane> would it be possible to hard-code some DNS seeds for other network types?
10:11 < brunoerg> is there a way to make them work with other network besides ipv4/6?
10:12 < brunoerg> or are there some technical limitations?
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10:12 < yashraj> already confused lol. what's the difference between fixed seeds and dns seeds?
10:13 < stickies-v> I remember something about TOR addresses being too large for DNS responses but I'm very unsure about that
10:14 < LarryRuane> yashraj: notice that the DNS seeds are strings like `seed.bitcoin.sipa.be` ... fixed seeds are raw IP addresses (and port numbers)
10:14 < yashraj> oh thanks
10:14 < glozow> yeah it's technical limitations. I don't know many details though tbh
10:14 < Guest922> noob question, how do you hear?
10:15 < amovfx_> Guest922: You will have to be a bit more specific
10:15 < Guest922> listen in to hear the speaker?
10:16 < Guest922> or is this just a chat?
10:16 < glozow> the DNS seeds should be serving you live data, i.e. updated quite regularly with the addresses of nodes they've been able to connect to. the fixed seeds are hardcoded and thus only updated once per release. should be intuitive which source you'd prefer to use
10:16 < glozow> Guest922: there is no audio, this is a text-only chat
10:16 < Guest922> thanks
10:16 < LarryRuane> DNS seeds! that's why we try those first? the fixed seeds are kind of a backup plan?
10:17 < yashraj> the dns seeds?
10:17 < stickies-v> DNS seeds are DNS servers, not bitcoin nodes. fixed seeds are bitcoin nodes
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10:17 < glozow> LarryRuane: yashraj: yes
10:17 < yashraj> stickies-v: oh right thanks makes so much more sense now :P
10:17 < b_101> stickies: +1
10:18 < LarryRuane> if we do need to resort to fixed seeds, we're not *limited* to just them, right? We can get more addresses from them?
10:18 < LarryRuane> (eventually)
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10:19 < glozow> LarryRuane: yes, that's part of what this PR is doing
10:19 < glozow> Can anyone tell us: What observable behavior change does this PR introduce? What kinds of addresses do we add to AddrMan, and under what circumstances?
10:20 < stickies-v> I think we're now only doing AddrFetch connections to fixed seeds? which means we only use them to get addresses, not txs and blocks etc?
10:21 < LarryRuane> Our (starting from scratch) node won't be as likely to connect to only fixed-seed nodes; we'll be more likely to connect to nodes they know about (and tell us about)
10:21 < amovfx_> If no dns_seeds are requested, then if addr_fetaches is empty and added nodes are empty add fixed seeds
10:21 < stickies-v> (well we only add them as AddrFetch for the first 2 minutes, hopefully we've got more addresses in our AddrMan by then)
10:21 < yashraj> move fixed seeds to addrfetch from addrman so they're only used if they have to be which reduces bandwidth for them and protects against eclipse attacks?
10:22 < LarryRuane> yashraj: yes, definitely reduces the load on the fixed seed nodes (they won't get an many inbound connections as they do currently)
10:23 < LarryRuane> (well I mean, they'll get temporary `ADDR_FETCH` connections, but not full connections)
10:23 < glozow> right. the idea here is to fill up our AddrMan more quickly, since we make connections to the addrs we get from there
10:24 < LarryRuane> definitely a cool idea!
10:24 < glozow> so instead of just adding the fixed seeds to our addrman, we ask them for more addrs to add to addrman
10:24 < brunoerg> LarryRuane: +1
10:25 < glozow> and yes, this reduces the load on those fixed seeds. if a bunch of new nodes connect to them first thing, they're probably serving up a lot of blocks
10:26 < yashraj> we ask fixed seeds for addresses or blocks or both?
10:26 < glozow> What is an AddrFetch connection?
10:26 < glozow> hint: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/f59e91511a3aa8b2770eeec7034ddc1a9dec918b/src/node/connection_types.h#L70-L76
10:26 < glozow> yashraj: just addresses
10:26 < LarryRuane> yashraj: addresses (not blocks, not transactions)
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10:27 < b_101> to get addresses of peers
10:29 < LarryRuane> so when we make an AddrFetch connection, we only send getaddr messages? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_documentation#getaddr
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10:30 < LarryRuane> our peer replies with one of these? https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_documentation#addr
10:30 < b_101> LarryRuane: that's what I understand
10:33 < lightlike> It's pretty much a normal connection, with the special property that we disconnect once we receive an answer to our getaddr message. It's not like we disable block relay or tx relay, we may even get a block from them before they get disconnected.
10:34 < glozow> LarryRuane: correct, see disconnection logic here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/1a369f006fd0bec373b95001ed84b480e852f191/src/net_processing.cpp#L2793-L2796
10:35 < glozow> well, addr or addrv2.
10:35 < glozow> which unfortunately is not documented in that bitcoin wiki, it seems
10:36 < glozow> Ok next question was already answered, onlynet=tor means you won't get much help from the DNS seeds
10:36 < glozow> What does the `ThreadOpenConnections` do? What does `ThreadDNSAddressSeed` do? Which thread should handle connecting to fixed seeds, and why?
10:37 < glozow> hint: code here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/5e82b9ba96b6c5614a1187382a086e5694dff544/src/net.cpp#L1578 and here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/5e82b9ba96b6c5614a1187382a086e5694dff544/src/net.cpp#L1390
10:40 < brunoerg> `ThreadDNSAddressSeed` exists to connect to DNS Seeds
10:40 < glozow> and `ThreadOpenConnections` ?
10:41 < brunoerg> processes and sends messages to node's peers (from notes)
10:43 < amovfx_> +1 bruno
10:43 < glozow> Which thread should handle connecting to fixed seeds, and why?
10:44 < amovfx_> ThreadDNSAddressSeed because it is filling up addrman?
10:44 < amovfx_> OpenCOnenctions is more general
10:44 < amovfx_> ?
10:45 < glozow> That's not necessarily true. If you receive an addr message from your peer, you are processing them on `ThreadOpenConnections`
10:45 < brunoerg> ThreadDNSAddressSeed because we will use the fixed seeds after trying to get some addrs from DNS seeds (in case we wasn't able to get anything)?
10:45 < glozow> unsure what "more general" means
10:47 < amovfx_> I thought openconnections was a more generalized function for the btc software
10:47 < glozow> brunoerg: yeah that's pretty much what I'm getting at. they're very similar in nature; you're trying to solicit addrs because your addrman is empty
10:47 < amovfx_> everything uses it
10:48 < glozow> that is incorrect
10:49 < glozow> ok last question
10:49 < yashraj> yeah that's why the renaming also makes sense. got it.
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10:50 < glozow> After we make the addrfetch connection to the fixed seed. We don't immediately add it to our addrman. We wait 2 minutes. Why?
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10:50 < glozow> code here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/blob/7e95f8f6bb0e06b0676db3da05b2a55a011c9668/src/net.cpp#L1560
10:51 < glozow> yashraj: right. `ThreadAddressSeed`as in, the thread with which we bootstrap our address manager
10:51 < amovfx_> to give the connections time to respond so addrs fill up
10:51 < stickies-v> sounds mostly like a fallback for unforeseen/unexpected circumstances? if the network gets bloated with unresponsive peers and all we get is junk, then at least the fixed seeds can still bootstrap?
10:52 < stickies-v> (uneducated guess)
10:52 < glozow> btw, there is some documentation on the threads in developer-notes: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/developer-notes.md#threads
10:54 < lightlike> also, the more time passes after a releases, the more of the fixed seeds are no longer online, or maybe are operating under a new IP.
10:54 < glozow> Don't forget this is multi-threaded, so other things are still happening while this thread is seeding addresses. i.e., we are also making full outbound connections to catch up our chainstate at the same time
10:57 < stickies-v> lightlike: good point, but is that in relation to this latest question? i'm not sure I see the connection
10:58 < amovfx_> i thought it was for an opportunity for us to get addresses filled up through other connections before we resort to fixed seeds
10:58 < lightlike> stickies-v: yes, if we just try 10 of them and they are all offline, it makes sense to add the other ones to the addrman after a while (so that we can hopefully make a connection to them).
10:59 < amovfx_> because arent previous addresses stored when bitcoin shuts down
10:59 < amovfx_> and then they are reused on relaunch to reconnect faster
11:00 < stickies-v> lightlike: ah, so we try 10 fixed seeds for addrfetch and then after 2 minutes can use all the fixed seeds to add to addrman?
11:01 < lightlike> yes! It's like falling back to the status quo, where we would just add them all to addrman initially.
11:02 < stickies-v> I see
11:02 < glozow> seems we're out of time and out of questions!
11:02 < glozow> thanks for coming everyone, see you next week
11:02 < glozow> #endmeeting
11:02 < amovfx_> awesome
11:02 < amovfx_> ty
11:03 < amovfx_> wondering where I can get some testnet coins
11:03 < amovfx_> faucets are slow and small
11:03 < LarryRuane> glozow: thanks! really learned a lot!
11:03 < glozow> next week stickies-v is hosting on PR #26158
11:03 < amovfx_> willing to buy like .2 for acctual real btc
11:03 < glozow> link to PR https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26158
11:03 < stickies-v> thank you for hosting glozow and lightlike for authoring
11:03 < brunoerg> thanks! learned a lot
11:03 < amovfx_> yes and thanks for hosting and authoring
11:03 < b_101> glozow: thanks for hosting! tx everyone
11:03 < lightlike> thanks!
11:03 < LarryRuane> amovfx_: I've had good luck with signet coins https://signet.bc-2.jp/
11:04 < amovfx_> I've struggled with signet
11:04 < LarryRuane> (I haven't tried testnet for a long time)
11:04 < LarryRuane> amovfx_: you mean getting coins? or just running the network?
11:04 < glozow> psst! it's even more fun when everybody prepares and we can get really deep into the code ;)
11:05 < LarryRuane> glozow: +1 -- yes I'll try to do better!
11:05 < amovfx_> aye glozow, I'm trying to get my skills up
11:05 < amovfx_> LarryRuane, runnign the network
11:05 < amovfx_> hit a bunch of errors
11:06 < amovfx_> o wait
11:06 < amovfx_> I think it was because I was trying to sign a message with a bech32m address and it was a no go
11:07 < amovfx_> I have it working now
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11:08 < amovfx_> and whats the difference between testnet and signet, and does lightning network run on signet?
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12:53 < instagibbs> testnet uses PoW, with special difficulty reset logic, while signet uses signatures instead of PoW
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12:54 < instagibbs> yes you can run lightning on signet
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