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08:57 < glozow> ping?
08:57 < LarryRuane> hi
08:57 < jbes> hey
08:57 < glozow> amazing thank you
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08:57 < glozow> we'll get started in 3 minutes or so
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08:58 < LarryRuane> darn i should have said pong
08:58 < glozow> haha, next time!
09:00 < glozow> #startmeeting
09:00 < emzy> hi
09:00 < svav> Hi
09:00 < LarryRuane> hi
09:00 < theStack> hi
09:01 < codo> hi
09:01 < pakaro> hi
09:01 < michaelfolkson2> hi
09:01 < pakaro> michaelfolkson2 what did you do with michaelfolkson!?
09:01 -!- michaelfolkson2 is now known as michaelfolkson
09:01 < glozow> Welcome to PR review club everyone! feel free to say hi so we know you're here
09:01 < ranemirus> hi
09:02 < glozow> Today is part 2 of v3 policy review, notes here: https://bitcoincore.reviews/25038
09:02 < michaelfolkson> pakaro: Just an alter ego
09:02 < instagibbs> hi
09:02 < glozow> We have some questions prepared at https://bitcoincore.reviews/25038-2 but feel free to jump in whenever you'd like
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09:02 < glozow> has everyone had a chance to look at the PR and/or the notes?
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09:03 < theStack> y
09:03 < LarryRuane> y
09:03 < instagibbs> y
09:03 < abubakar_> hi
09:03 < michaelfolkson> y
09:04 < svav> y
09:04 < glozow> theStack: LarryRuane: instagibbs: michaelfolkson: abubakar_: svav: amazing! Would you like to share what your review approach was?
09:05 < LarryRuane> there are many commits, because there is some RBF stuff in the PR too, so first step for me is try to identify which commits are relevant for this review club
09:06 < abubakar_> concept review, and just an overview of some commits.
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09:07 < theStack> my review approach was mainly driven by the review club notes, i.e. the implementation questions
09:07 < LarryRuane> (I know you're going to separate the commits out into separate PRs)
09:07 < glozow> LarryRuane: I think I put this in the notes as well but fyi the v3 commits are 44fcc4d…3db3e45 (https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/44fcc4d3912e21b055c377549c8882c67dddf278)
09:07 < LarryRuane> of the 24 commits, seems like the relevant ones are sort of in the middle ... oh thank you!
09:09 < glozow> first question for today: If we were running a business that accepted unconfirmed transactions as payments, what changes should we make so that our wallet correctly tracks v3 transactions?
09:10 < LarryRuane> seems too simple to say, but just inspect the nVersion number to see if it's 3 (or greater)?
09:10 < instagibbs> from an unconfirmed transaction perspective, your node needs to be updated to see them in the mempool
09:10 < abubakar_> Update our wallet bitcoin core node to the version that has v3 commits, and our mempool will start tracking v3 transaction which we can add to our wallet.
09:10 < michaelfolkson> Treat them like non v3 transactions that are signaling RBF?
09:10 < instagibbs> for confirmed, nothing needsto be done :)
09:11 < Murch> v3 transactions are non-standard, so upgrade our node? ^^
09:12 < michaelfolkson> Accepting unconfirmed isn't recommended (I guess it is worth stating the obvious) and especially if they are signaling RBF or are v3 that are also signaling RBF inherently
09:12 < glozow> LarryRuane: instagibbs: abubakar_: michaelfolkson: Murch: all good answers yep. upgrading so you understand v3 policy. understanding that v3 signals replaceability is pretty important
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09:12 < glozow> Who might be interested in using v3 transactions? Who probably wouldn’t be interested?
09:13 < abubakar_> Lightning network users might be interested
09:13 < theStack> assuming that "who" is not only refering to individuals, i'd say any L2 protocol that currently suffers from pinning attacks
09:13 < LarryRuane> kind of obvious again, but lightning wallets (and related infrastructure)?
09:13 < instagibbs> batched payment processors 
09:13 < abubakar_> eople who need more than one transaction cluster can’t think of any lol.
09:14 < abubakar_> might not be interested
09:14 < Murch> Since they’re explicitly designed to limit the pinning attack surface, they would mostly be used by multiparty transactions, e.g. lightning channel commitment transactions.
09:14 < instagibbs> since clients give you addresses, you can't force them to use specific kinds of scripts, and you may want to rbf your batch payment
09:14 < Murch> Merchants would probably prefer to treat them like other RBF transactions and wait for confirmation.
09:15 < instagibbs> it's much less interesting for things like donation transactions, or other low priority txns
09:16 < glozow> yep. and I think if you only spend confirmed utxos, there's no reason not to use v3
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09:17 < instagibbs> it doesn't hurt in those cases either to be fair :)
09:17 < michaelfolkson> So the expectation would be all transactions use v3 eventually? Unless you strongly don't want to signal RBF?
09:18 < instagibbs> michaelfolkson great question, what topology is useful that isnt supported?
09:18 < glozow> I guess... unless you have some compelling reason to chain n>2 unconfirmed transactions together, v3 is always better
09:18 < glozow> I think somebody pinged me about chained coinjoins
09:19 < instagibbs> batched CPFP
09:19 < michaelfolkson> instagibbs: You mean package RBF (yet)?
09:19 < instagibbs> many parents, one child. All parents are f.e. channel commitment txns, child is fee-bringing child
09:20 < michaelfolkson> Ah that isn't supported by anything including v3
09:20 < glozow> yep, no batched CPFP. so if you sent a bunch of transactions and want to batch them together, you can't do a cpfp. but hopefully if you made them all v3, you can just batch them together in an rbf
09:20 < glozow> and if you're receiving a bunch of payments across multiple transactions, you gotta bump them 1 by 1
09:21 < glozow> If there are some wallets/users/applications that use v3 while others don’t, is there a privacy issue (i.e. people can fingerprint which wallet likely created a transaction by looking at its version)? (There is no "correct" answer to this question)
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09:22 < abubakar_> I think you can just tell this transaction is from a wallet/user that uses v3 transactions, but you can not say which user or wallet application.
09:22 < instagibbs> michaelfolkson non-v3 can do it(poorly, due to pinning vectors)
09:22 < pakaro> ln-settlement transactions are currently fingerprintable already as [2/2multisig]
09:22 < pakaro> but it does give more info to chainanalysis
09:23 < glozow> pakaro: yeah I think some cases are worse than others. We don't really need to worry about "unilateral LN channel closes are identifiable" because they already are
09:24 < michaelfolkson> abubakar_: This depends on how many wallet applications support it. If only one does you can tell. If lots do you can't. The bigger the crowd (of wallets) the harder it is to know which wallet
09:24 < instagibbs> batched payment processors are also quite fingerprintable due to size/utxo clustering
09:24 < theStack> wondering if some wallets in the future will use either v2 or v3 randomly (in cases where both work, obviously), to increase confusion
09:26 < LarryRuane> theStack: +1 that's a good idea
09:26 < glozow> yeah i mean the argument "when very few wallets use it, it's easy to tell which wallet created a tx" is pretty weak, because then we should never update anything
09:26 < instagibbs> or mimic the nversion of the depositing txn, hard to say imo
09:27 < michaelfolkson> glozow: +1
09:27 < pakaro> +1 thestack neat idea
09:28 < glozow> that is interesting!
09:28 < pakaro> thestack -> is parameter randomization used similarly in transactions today?
09:29 < glozow> I'm going to move on to implementation questions since we're halfway. Why does `ApplyV3Rules` check whether the transaction conflicts with any of its ancestors’ children?
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09:29 < glozow> code here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/44fcc4d3912e21b055c377549c8882c67dddf278#diff-a19c07329799a164e1e3bd89e7cd07f1a8e5e97b88f2b24c9bef17df04479c74R69
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09:32 < glozow> more specific link: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/44fcc4d3912e21b055c377549c8882c67dddf278#diff-a19c07329799a164e1e3bd89e7cd07f1a8e5e97b88f2b24c9bef17df04479c74R93-R105
09:33 < theStack> pakaro: good question. some wallet fingerprinting possibilities and mitigations are listed here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Privacy#Wallet_fingerprinting (but i have no idea if this is really up-to-date...)
09:33 < theStack> ad Q1: this seems to be for the case that there is already a child of the parent in the mempool. we allow that if the child is replaced, IIUC
09:34 < codo> My guess: it checks if it conflicts, because it should conflict. To replace it.
09:35 < glozow> theStack: exactly. what happens if we don't have this check?
09:36 < glozow> if we don't have this check, you can't replace a v3 transaction that has an ancestor
09:36 < glozow> next question. V3 ancestor/descendant limits are stricter than the default mempool limits. Do we need to call both ApplyV3Rules (which enforces v3 ancestor/descendant limits) and CalculateMemPoolAncestors() (which enforces ancestor/descendant limits)? Why or why not?
09:37 < michaelfolkson> If it is a V3 transaction we don't need both because V3 is stricter?
09:38 < LarryRuane> michaelfolkson: that seems right to me
09:38 < glozow> hint: ancestor/descendant limits are configurable
09:38 < theStack> the default mempool limits can be changed (`-limit{ancestor,descendant}{size,count}`), so they could be even stricter than v3?
09:38 < LarryRuane> OH .. so need to check both!
09:38 < michaelfolkson> Ha ok
09:39 < LarryRuane> wow i wouldn't have thought of that, good catch, theStack:
09:39 < glozow> theStack: exactly. see this test case: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/2b17bbb6723b66262948994b375403e22efe5942#diff-15a1888c9151fc1d182c23e34b71d691f70df448bceb9eb78c8296f18854b6a3R186-R213
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09:40 < glozow> V3 rules are added to the filtering function passed to removeForReorg() in Chainstate::MaybeUpdateMempoolForReorg. Why do we need to check v3 rules in a reorg?
09:40 < glozow> talking about this code: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/a74218d1571de5880ba7e0c168571f560d12d166#diff-97c3a52bc5fad452d82670a7fd291800bae20c7bc35bb82686c2c0a4ea7b5b98R353-R358
09:40 < michaelfolkson> There was never the equivalent of ApplyV2Rules? It was always treated as if it could be configurable?
09:41 < LarryRuane> glozow: because a v3 tx may have been legal before the reorg, but now, it's no longer legal because it has more ancestors
09:41 < glozow> michaelfolkson: what do you mean by "equivalent?" like a filtering function in removeforreorg?
09:42 < LarryRuane> (since reorg means throw some "mined" tx back into the mempool)
09:42 < theStack> v3 rules are not consensus rules, i.e. after disconnecting a block we can't just unconditonally put txs in the mempool (v2 could spend v3 and vice-versa)
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09:43 < glozow> LarryRuane: theStack: yep exactly! test cases here https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/2b17bbb6723b66262948994b375403e22efe5942#diff-15a1888c9151fc1d182c23e34b71d691f70df448bceb9eb78c8296f18854b6a3R163-R182
09:43 < pakaro> theStack as an extension, after any re-org, does that mean _all_ policy checks must be redone
09:43 < glozow> are there any other ways we could implement this check?
09:44 < glozow> pakaro: yes, almost all policy rules are applied to transactions entering the mempool from disconnected blocks.
09:45 < glozow> e.g. if you had a mempool tx that spends from 50 transactions in a block, and then that block gets disconnected, you don't get to keep all of them.
09:46 < michaelfolkson> glozow: Sorry I was stuck on the last question. I think I get it now
09:46 < glozow> ah ok, great
09:49 < glozow> moving on to next question but if anybody comes up with a better way to check v3 rules in a reorg, please let me know because I personally find it a tad ugly
09:49 < glozow> we already did Q5 last week
09:49 < glozow> Why is it necessary to evict all transactions below minimum relay feerate in TrimToSize()? i.e. this commit: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/898847e1907eda3d87d19ea43099b71d9eded5f4
09:49 < glozow> What happens if we remove this check?
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09:51 < michaelfolkson> A transaction that gets re-orged out of a mined block sits in our mempool with too low feerate?
09:52 < glozow> michaelfolkson: sure, that is potentially a concern. but what's wrong with a low feerate transaction from a block? is it a DoS vector?
09:54 < theStack> hm i guess it won't propagate if it's not part of a package, i.e. there is no point in keeping it
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09:55 < instagibbs> theStack if you've already validated it, maybe it's fine to keep it around in case it gets mined?
09:55 < michaelfolkson> glozow: I guess, a pretty sophisticated DoS vector. But if a low fee rate is a DoS vector then this is too
09:55 < theStack> instagibbs: yeah good point
09:56 < glozow> I think in some ways it's a pretty poor way to try to DoS people. you need to mine a block and then let it get reorged.
09:56 < pakaro> +1 glozow
09:56 < michaelfolkson> glozow: Mine a block full of transactions with low fee rates and then broadcast a competing mined block shortly afterwards
09:56 < michaelfolkson> Agreed it ain't great
09:57 < instagibbs> orphaning your own block seems even worse
09:57 < glozow> welllll you need 2 blocks in the competing chain
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09:58 < glozow> I don't have all the answers tho. There's a discussion about this in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27018 if anybody's interested.
09:59 < glozow> looks like we're out of time
09:59 < glozow> thanks everyone for coming, I can't stay for extra questions this time unfortunately
09:59 < instagibbs> glozow was thinking I'd like to do an ephemeral anchors sequel to v3 discussions if people are interested? mental delta should be quite small
10:00 < instagibbs> can schedule me in for a slot
10:00 < michaelfolkson> Seems like if you're unsure you keep the check in, conservatism FTW
10:00 < glozow> instagibbs: that'd be doooope
10:00 < michaelfolkson> instagibbs: +1
10:00 < theStack> thanks for hosting glozow!
10:00 < glozow> #endmeeting
10:00 < theStack> instagibbs: +1
10:00 < michaelfolkson> Thanks glozow!
10:00 < abubakar_> thanks Glozow!
10:00 < pakaro> thanks glozow, thanks everybody
10:00 < LarryRuane> thanks glozow 
10:00 < instagibbs> great discussion, really excited about this stuff
10:01 < glozow> instagibbs: =3
10:01 < glozow> I have LarryRuane scheduled for next week on #25325
10:02 < pakaro> and after that is the PR on skipping witness-downloading iirc
10:02 < pakaro> skipping for assume-valid && pruned nodes
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10:02 < pakaro> woops didn't see instagibbs 's post...i'd love to get more into ephemerals
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10:03 < instagibbs> I just raised my hand, I don't know how scheduling works :)
10:05 < emzy> Thanks glozow!
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12:17 < Phyrexian25> Is the meeting over already? I wanted to observe but I had stuff to do this week
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12:48 < codo> Phyrexian25: possibly the logs will appear at the bottom of https://bitcoincore.reviews/25038-2
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 02 00:00:59 2023