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10:00 < instagibbs> looks like it's time to get started! This week we're taking a look at Ephemeral Anchors, notes etc here https://bitcoincore.reviews/26403
10:00 < michaelfolkson> hi
10:00 < LarryRuane> hi
10:00 < instagibbs> everyone make some digital noise
10:00 < lightlike> Hi
10:00 < abubakarsadiq> hi
10:00 < DaveBeer> hi
10:00 < Luke96> First time here
10:00 < michaelfolkson> #startmeeting
10:01 < schmidty> hi
10:01 < instagibbs> oops thanks michaelfolkson
10:01 < instagibbs> This is my first time hosting, IIUC I just dive on in by asking: Did you get a change to look at the notes? y/n
10:02 < Luke96> n
10:02 < michaelfolkson> y
10:02 < abubakarsadiq> y
10:02 < DaveBeer> y, at notes
10:02 < LarryRuane> Hope you don't mind a very basic question, something I've wondered for a while... the BIP says "Ephemeral anchors of any satoshi value are standard for relay" -- is there ever a difference between standardness for *relay* versus *mempool accept*? Or are those always the same?
10:02 < glozow> hi
10:02 < glozow> y
10:02 < glozow> LarryRuane: theyre the same
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10:03 < instagibbs> LarryRuane great question! Sometimes things can be standard for mempool entry but not propagate for various racey reasons... hopefully not super important for EA
10:03 < LarryRuane> 0.5y (notes)
10:03 < LarryRuane> instagibbs: +1 thanks!
10:04 < instagibbs>  Regarding the PR, Concept ACK, approach ACK, tested ACK, or NACK? What was your review approach?
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10:05 < LarryRuane> concept ACK, but (probably questionable to say this) mainly because I know many very smart people have worked on it! I believe we can all be influenced in that way
10:05 < michaelfolkson> I guess so far this seems the best solution hence Concept ACK but unsure whether something else could end up being better
10:05 < DaveBeer> lost myself in study of package RBF, version 3 and ephemeral anchors, need deeper understanding of problem to review, here mostly to lurk & learn
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10:07 < michaelfolkson> I guess similar to LarryRuane I'm kinda trusting that the design space has been exhausted at this point and this is best
10:07 < instagibbs> related email on exploring the space, for reading later https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-January/021334.html
10:07 < instagibbs> ok let's dive into nitty gritty
10:08 < instagibbs> 2) Why do anti-pinning measures in BOLT03 appear suboptimal?
10:08 < michaelfolkson> instagibbs: Ah nice that link wasn't in the notes
10:08 < instagibbs> Can anyone understand the measures in place in BOLT03 to stop pinning?
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10:08 < glozow> Anchor outputs suck: they're tiny little outputs that often don't get spent and hang out in utxo set, you need 1 for each party and CPFP carve out only works for 2 party.
10:09 < glozow> Also pinning
10:09 < instagibbs> right, today there are two dusty outputs per commitment transaction, and lots of pinning vectors. If we adopt V3 transactions we can already do a lot better.
10:10 < instagibbs> What anti-pinning measures do the "balance" outputs have?
10:10 < instagibbs> to_us IIRC
10:10 < instagibbs> to_local, excuse me
10:10 < michaelfolkson> Locks to the funding key
10:11 < glozow> I have a question. IIUC one motivation for OP_CSV 1 is we don't want any unconfirmed descendants to be added to these outputs, we only want unconfirmed children added to the anchor outputs. Are there other reasons to have the 1 block relative timelock?
10:11 < instagibbs> glozow sorry I was trying to talk about this feature
10:11 < instagibbs> look for "option_anchors" which includes "  1 OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY OP_DROP" snippets in code
10:12 < instagibbs> the only reason they are there is to stop people from spending that output with large junk, pinning the transaction
10:12 < instagibbs> There is simply no other reason for it
10:12 < glozow> ah! good to know, i thought there was another reason
10:12 < lightlike> instagibbs: aren't these part of the to_remote outputs instead of to_local?
10:13 < instagibbs> yes, LN today is very confusing, I was turned around :)
10:13 < instagibbs> to_local has the realy timelock delay, to_remote does not
10:13 < instagibbs> just the single block to stop spending
10:13 < instagibbs> to swing back to what glozow mentioned
10:13 < instagibbs> What is today’s CPFP carve-out in Bitcoin Core? What are its limitations?
10:15 < michaelfolkson> An exception to the max package size
10:15 < lightlike> If one parties CPFP's their anchor up to the mempool package size limit in order to pin the tx, the other party can use "one more" tx for their anchor, even though that exceeds the limit by 1.
10:15 < instagibbs> correct, "just one more", up to some fairly large size tx
10:16 < instagibbs> So as glozow mentioned, this only scales to 2 spendable unconfirmed outputs
10:16 < instagibbs> so if we wanted multiparty channels, robust CPFP of batched payouts, etc, it doesn't quite work
10:16 < michaelfolkson> And we don't have package relay yet so this CPFP carve out isn't actually possible to be utilized currently?
10:17 < michaelfolkson> Even though it is in Core
10:17 < instagibbs> the parent tx has to be higher than the min feerate of the node's  mempool 
10:17 < instagibbs> then CPFP takes care of the rest
10:17 < instagibbs> So in other words, you cann't have a 0-fee parent you bump, without package relay
10:18 < instagibbs> So, assuming we already have package relay/V3....
10:18 < instagibbs>  4) In what ways could BOLT03 be improved with Ephemeral Anchors?
10:18 < glozow> er another question sorry. why do we need 2 anchors instead of 1 anyone can spend anchor for example?
10:19 < instagibbs> We only need the one, sorry might have not said something clearly...
10:19 < instagibbs> Ah
10:19 < glozow> sorry i meant 2 in the current spc
10:19 < glozow> spec*
10:19 < michaelfolkson> glozow: Currently in the BOLT there are 2 needed
10:19 < michaelfolkson> Right
10:20 < glozow> yes, my question is why
10:20 < michaelfolkson> It says "to prevent a malicious peer from attaching child transactions with a low fee density to an anchor"
10:20 < michaelfolkson> So a form of pinning, right?
10:20 < instagibbs> So the idea was that Alice OR Bob could CPFP either version of the latest commitment transaction
10:21 < instagibbs> but in practice, that is really hairy, because mempools are not synced, so generally speaking you should be trying to bump your version only
10:21 < glozow> Ah so Rule 3 pinning. If it was anyone can spend, somebody might add 100ksat 1sat/vB child and you'd need to RBF that to do a new bump
10:21 < instagibbs> Oh, yes, EA *today* without V3 means child can be 101kvb
10:21 < instagibbs> sorry, didn't understand
10:22 < glozow> (note to self to specify whether I mean "today" "with v3" or "with ea" in the future)
10:22 < instagibbs> right, so today anchors require key material
10:22 < lightlike> does that mean that one anyone-can-spend anchor would work suffice if RBF rules were pinning-safe? And we need 2 because RBF rules aren't?
10:23 < instagibbs> lightlike you may not want anyone to bump your tx, theoretically, but that's the vast majority of the motivation yes
10:23 < instagibbs> Alice and Bob could have a single anchor they share key material for I suppose
10:23 < michaelfolkson> MuSig output
10:23 < glozow> lightlike: along the same lines... I'm wondering if, with v3, we could do 1 anyonecanpay anchor?
10:24 < instagibbs> glozow you could do wsh(OP_TRUE) with minimal sats, yes
10:24 < instagibbs> extra bytes to be standard to relay the output, and "not dust"
10:24 < michaelfolkson> Oh no MuSig output wouldn't work, or sharing key material, because you need this if your counterparty is unresponsive
10:24 < glozow> that is larger than a bare OP_TRUE though, and small UTXO if not spent. so still see value in EA
10:25 < glozow> cool
10:25 < instagibbs> Also there are cases where you can't "bleed out" value
10:25 < lightlike> glozow: isn't that basically what ephemeral anchor is, with the added benefit that it *must' be spent?
10:25 < glozow> lightlike: basically, but I think the biggest draw is the 0-value
10:26 < glozow> and the smaller size is pretty nice imo
10:26 < instagibbs> Well not just that, but also the fact you can un-CSV other outputs
10:26 < glozow> ahhhhhhhh
10:26 < instagibbs> "balance" outputs can now be whatever you want
10:26 < instagibbs> the "option_anchors" stuff I was talking about can safely be removed
10:27 < instagibbs> think of the EA output as a "mutex" on an unconfirmed transaction's outputs. 
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10:28 < instagibbs> So for LN with EA, we would get rid of the dusty values in the single anchor, and relax all the scripts required for the spec. This makes splicing much more powerful
10:29 < lightlike> Is it a problem, that when the child is replaced by different parties CPFP'ing, each party needs to contribute the fees for the entire package (not just the delta) because the parent is always 0 fee?
10:29 < instagibbs> 5) What use cases are helped by including an ephemeral anchor? What use cases is it not helpful for?
10:30 < instagibbs> we already talked a bit about LN, other ideas?
10:30 < michaelfolkson> Can you elaborate on the splicing more powerful thing? You still need to agree any splicing with your counterparty
10:31 < instagibbs> so for splicing, you want to be able to send funds to arbitrary destinations, even if counter-party doesn't know what the underlying script is
10:31 < instagibbs> so they may want a 1 block CSV to stop pinning
10:32 < instagibbs> but even if you wanted to doxx your script showing the 1 block CSV is in the script(handwave), things like LN funding outputs are incompatible!
10:32 < instagibbs> So you could not splice out into a new LN channel, in this example
10:32 < michaelfolkson> So this could increase the channel capacity without your counterparty agreeing to it?
10:33 < instagibbs> it just makes splicing out easier to design from anti-pin perspective
10:33 < michaelfolkson> Ok
10:35 < instagibbs> So EA is not useful for situations where you have ample ability to RBF your transactions
10:35 < michaelfolkson> On the use cases vaults always comes up with this kinda stuff
10:35 < instagibbs> that's the main thing it doesn't really help
10:35 < instagibbs> Another use-case I like to mention is that it allows a separation of "custodied" funds from fee funds. This is helpful in business settings or custodial settings
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10:36 < instagibbs> hurrying along
10:36 < instagibbs> 6) Why does the usage of ephemeral anchors rely on package relay?
10:38 < glozow> because the only reason it's ephemeral is it's spent immediately by the child that it can't live without. Otherwise it's just "potentially dust anchors."
10:38 < glozow> Or “never propagated 0fee transactions”
10:38 < instagibbs> exactly, basically those two
10:38 < instagibbs> 7) What mechanisms do we have in place to discourage dust level utxos?
10:39 < michaelfolkson> DoS standardness limits
10:39 < LarryRuane> transactions spending dust aren't standard (not relayed) (?)
10:40 < abubakarsadiq> ephimeral policy rules 
10:40 < instagibbs> LarryRuane creating or spending dust?
10:40 < abubakarsadiq> I mean policy rules :)
10:40 < LarryRuane> i thought spending
10:41 < instagibbs> LarryRuane incorrect! Spending dust is actually something we all want. It's making dust utxos we don't want
10:41 < michaelfolkson> Spending is good, it reduces the UTXO set. Creating them is bad
10:41 < LarryRuane> ah shoot, bad memory! :)
10:41 < instagibbs> 8) Are 0-value outputs consensus valid to create? How about in policy? (Hint: see standardness checks for vout).
10:42 < abubakarsadiq> I think they are consensus valid
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10:42 < abubakarsadiq> policy invalid
10:42 < instagibbs> correct!
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10:43 < LarryRuane> instagibbs: that's right, though, dust outputs bloat the UTXO set... spending them reduces the UTXO set... thanks
10:43 < instagibbs> 9) Are 0-value outputs consensus valid to spend? How about in policy?
10:43 < instagibbs> We just answered this one I think
10:43 < instagibbs> yes and yes. making utxo set smaller is good
10:44 < instagibbs> 10) Does this (EA) increase the risk of dust entering the utxo set? Can you think of any situations that might arise?
10:45 < michaelfolkson> It doesn't increase the risk assuming everyone applies these policy rules. It is a policy adoption question?
10:45 < abubakarsadiq> Yes assuming v3 policy is applied I think it does not
10:46 < instagibbs> correct, using "stock" PR it will not be mined into utxo set, but miners could of course modify their software
10:46 < LarryRuane> for anyone else wondering, here's where dust outputs are deemed nonstandard: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/8e7179aa132598b946d0e03f4ec452edc6ef3bc4/src/policy/policy.cpp#L144
10:47 < instagibbs> thanks for the link
10:47 < instagibbs> Please jump back to old questions if you like, I'm just plowing forward
10:48 < glozow> In order for dust to enter the utxo set this way, a miner basically has to modify their node so they can mine a 0 fee tx on its own. seems not impossible, but pretty unlikely
10:48 < instagibbs> If they're being paid out of band, the user could just as easily spend the EA and add fees themselves
10:48 < instagibbs> that's the whole point!
10:48 < instagibbs> 11) Why does this new output type use OP_TRUE?
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10:49 < michaelfolkson> There could be a tx with an ephemeral anchor output and other outputs that pays a non zero fee?
10:50 < LarryRuane> more general question, there seem to be many policy (standardness) restrictions that are not consensus restrictions... is that mainly because if it's consensus, then we can't remove the restriction (should it be discovered to be necessary) without needed a hardfork?
10:50 < michaelfolkson> In which case it would need to be caught by policy, otherwise it would be propagated
10:51 < instagibbs> LarryRuane yes making something (non)standard first is a typical step to making something have additional consensus meaning
10:52 < instagibbs> This question is mostly asking why that particular script and not something else? We already talked about wsh(OP_TRUE) being possible today, half answered at least
10:54 < instagibbs> Answer being: Spending the output requires no witness data, and no scriptSig data, making the input as small as possible
10:54 < instagibbs> 12) What benefits does this PR get from requiring V3 transactions? What properties of V3 does it rely on, if any?
10:55 < michaelfolkson> Assuming policy changes are adopted gradually rather than instantly there would be a window where these transactions/package with an ephemeral anchor wouldn't be propagated until adoption had lift-off
10:55 < instagibbs> michaelfolkson correct, as with any policy relaxation, you'll need some large minority of the network plus some miners to update to accept it
10:55 < michaelfolkson> So Lightning protocol changes to take advantage of these changes would probably wait until sufficient adoption
10:55 < michaelfolkson> Ok
10:55 < instagibbs> not only that, but for LN, all old channels would have to be upgraded, hitting the chain
10:56 < instagibbs> otherwise old states could still be broadcasted!
10:56 < instagibbs> time for one more question only I think so jumping to end.
10:56 < instagibbs> 15) What is the bitcoin-inquisition PR doing differently? Why?
10:57 < glozow> So iiuc you're skirting around package relay by having mempool validation prioritise the parent at 1sat/vB automatically?
10:57 < glozow> feerate configurable using ephemeraldelta
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10:58 < instagibbs> correct
10:58 < instagibbs> everything except the "is this spent in the same package" is checked
10:58 < instagibbs> due to lack of package relay
10:58 < glozow> ok and whats the usage of -blockmintxfee? Just to exercise the logic that the parent needs to be bumped? So ephemeral delta takes care of minrelay, and then blockmintxfee stops it from getting mined before the child comes in?
11:00 < instagibbs> IIRC it allows the miner to allow them into mempool, yet not mine them, with special config
11:00 < instagibbs> https://github.com/bitcoin-inquisition/bitcoin/pull/23#discussion_r1139697940
11:00 < instagibbs> #endmeeting
11:00 < instagibbs> thanks everyone for coming!
11:00 < glozow> ok hm. i kinda need to get rid of blockmintxfee for pakcage relay tho 🤣
11:01 < instagibbs> well.... if you get relay in, bitcoin-inquisition will rebase :D 
11:01 < instagibbs> problem solved
11:01 < glozow> tru tru
11:01 < glozow> 🔫
11:01 < glozow> thanks for hosting!!!
11:01 < instagibbs> please reach out if things didnt make sense or you have nagging questions
11:01 < michaelfolkson> Thanks instagibbs
11:03 < LarryRuane> thanks @instagibbs and all!
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11:04 < lightlike> thanks instagibbs!
11:05 < michaelfolkson> It would be nice to get all the required eltoo policy changes in with sufficient adoption before a APO soft fork was considered. With the lag in adoption n all
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11:07 < instagibbs> you really need ~10% uptake or so, plus some miners. I think the lead time would be plenty. Still lots of policy work being done
11:08 < instagibbs> I'm very much intersted in improving mempool policy/relay long before consensus changes that require them to be safe :)
11:09 < michaelfolkson> Right. Handy from a separation of concerns perspective too. Shoving in policy changes at the same time as an attempted consensus change wouldn't be ideal
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13:08 < jonatack1> Looking forward to reading up on notes and meeting. Thanks instagibbs!
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 30 00:00:18 2023