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[~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:56 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 06:58 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 07:08 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:20 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 07:35 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:58 -!- abubakarsadiq_ [uid602234@id-602234.hampstead.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:11 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:22 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:32 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:50 -!- kashifs [~kashifs@2603-7000-4600-0500-3d17-2946-7d82-7fd9.res6.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:57 -!- guest-127 [~guest-127@212.129.80.60] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:58 -!- monlovesmango [monlovesma@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/monlovesmango] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 08:59 -!- marcofleon [~marcofleo@75.105.37.5] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:00 < stickies-v> #startmeeting 09:00 < maxedw> hi 09:00 < kashifs> hi 09:00 < pablomartin> hello 09:00 < marcofleon> Hi 09:00 < abubakarsadiq_> hello 09:00 < TheCharlatan> hi 09:00 < stickies-v> welcome everyone! Today we're looking at #28690, authored by TheCharlatan. The notes and questions are available on https://bitcoincore.reviews/28690 09:01 < hebasto> hi 09:01 < monlovesmango> hey 09:01 < stickies-v> note: we'll be focusing on the previous PR HEAD (https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/5a235048500a38fae691396cb59f6697032b4deb), which is _not_ the current HEAD anymore (but we don't want to overhaul the notes and questions last minute) 09:02 < stickies-v> anyone joining us for the first time today? even if you're just lurking, feel free to say hi! 09:03 < stickies-v> > who got the chance to review the PR or read the notes? (y/n) 09:03 < hebasto> y 09:03 < monlovesmango> y 09:03 < pablomartin> y 09:03 < marcofleon> y 09:03 < kashifs> y 09:03 < abubakarsadiq_> light review Concept ACK 09:03 < TheCharlatan> y :P 09:03 < hebasto> :) 09:03 < stickies-v> ooh look at that prep! would you give it a Concept ACK, Approach ACK, Tested ACK, or NACK? what was your review approach? 09:04 < abubakarsadiq_> the notes are gem, thanks for the resource @stickies-v 09:04 < maxedw> y, Concept ACK 09:04 < hebasto> Approach ACK -- backported each commit to cmake-staging branch and analized undefined symbols in internal libraries 09:05 -!- henmeh [~henning@2a02:8070:4686:d820:923:6c6b:e60e:7c62] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:05 -!- effexzi [uid474242@id-474242.ilkley.irccloud.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:05 < stickies-v> glad they were helpful abubakarsadiq_ 09:05 -!- guest-127 [~guest-127@212.129.80.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:05 < pablomartin> Concept ACK but after reading notes and all conversations in it, most prob Approach ACK 09:05 < stickies-v> hebasto: i saw your comment on the undefined symbols analysis, great stuff! would you mind sharing how you did that? 09:05 < marcofleon> Ran some tests but would need to do a more thorough walkthrough of commits, concept ACK 09:06 < pablomartin> hebasto, stickies-v: yes pls 09:06 -!- guest-127 [~guest-127@212.129.80.60] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:07 < hebasto> stickies-v: in CMake it is easy to build any (even internal) library as shared one. the `--no-undefined` option will force a linker to report undefined symbols 09:08 < stickies-v> ah that's very cool, another cmake benefit (for anyone interested, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/28607) 09:08 < maxedw> Is there a time that undefined symbols is acceptable? 09:08 < stickies-v> i'm assuming everyone's completed (or already knows about) the required reading from Q2, so we can just skip that and head straight into Q3 09:08 < stickies-v> quick reminder that review club is async - so don't hold back on continuing the conversations/questions about previous questions when we've moved on already! 09:08 < hebasto> yes, for internal static libs 09:09 < maxedw> thanks hebasto 09:09 < stickies-v> hebasto: but it's not really "acceptable" for internal static libs either, right? like, the current state is not perfect, but ideally we'd eliminate all such instances? 09:10 < maxedw> not ideal but could work if you provide the symbol in the rest of your code 09:10 < maxedw> perhaps is a smell? 09:10 < fanquake> To be clear, --no-undefined is not related to CMake, it's a linker option that can be used regardless of build system 09:10 < fanquake> If you want to use it with master, just put --no-undefined into your LDFLAGS etc (we already do that in some cases) 09:10 < maxedw> thanks for the clarification fanquake 09:11 < hebasto> ^ CMake-related thing is easy building SHARED instead of STATIC 09:11 -!- grettke [~grettke@065-026-198-174.biz.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:11 < stickies-v> i'm very happy we've got all the experts in the room 09:11 < stickies-v> so, first question (keeping the numbering from the notes) 09:11 < stickies-v> 3. Are the Bitcoin Core internal libraries all statically or dynamically built, or a mix of both? Why? 09:12 < hebasto> well, configuring with such global LDFLAGS might not work 09:12 < abubakarsadiq_> From the list of the libraries in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/design/libraries.md seems like all internal libraries have the file extension .a which means they are all static libs. But I see libsecp256k1 and libbitcoin_crypto_base are dynamic I dont think they are internal libs. 09:12 < maxedw> I believe they are all static 09:13 < pablomartin> thought it was a mix... 09:13 < LarryRuane> yes I think static 09:13 < TheCharlatan> libbitcoin_crypto_base is in fact static, check crypto_libbitcoin_crypto_base_la_LDFLAGS 09:14 < abubakarsadiq_> oh thanks TheCharlatan will check 09:14 < maxedw> unrelated question but am I right in thinking that libsecp256k1 is copied into the bitcoin source code. It's not a git submodule. 09:15 < hebasto> maxedw: it is a subtree 09:15 < abubakarsadiq_> I see 09:15 < maxedw> ah gotcha hebasto 09:16 < stickies-v> so yes as most have pointed out already, all the internal libs are static! anyone got an answer for the "Why" part? 09:16 < monlovesmango> @pablomartin I thought so too bc of the bullet point in the notes, but I think that is about bitcoin core, not bitcoin core internal 09:17 < monlovesmango> for stability/security? dunno 09:17 < LarryRuane> stickies-v: is it more secure? the user can't be using a rogue library that an attacker installed on the system? (not sure at all) 09:17 < pablomartin> i see, thanks 09:18 < abubakarsadiq_> security? can you expand 09:18 < pablomartin> yeah they are all embedded into the binary 09:18 < stickies-v> LarryRuane: shared library/DLL hijacking is indeed something I've come across a few times in my research but I don't know how feasible it is in practice nowadays, hopefully someone can expand on that 09:19 < hebasto> internal static libraries, being simple archives of object files, are used to make build system efficient, modularized, maintanble 09:19 < maxedw> feels neater rather than needing to ship a bunch of libraries with the binary. I'm not sure about security as if someone is able to swap out one of the libs then why couldn't they swap out the main binary? 09:19 < LarryRuane> "... why couldn't they swap out ..." -- yes, very good point 09:20 < hebasto> the same internal static library might be reused to build several executables 09:20 < stickies-v> hebasto: wouldn't shared libraries would be equally modularized and maintainable? 09:22 < hebasto> then bitcoind must be shipped with the bunch of dependency shared libs 09:22 < sipa> shared libraries IMHO only make sense when they can commit to having a stable interface 09:22 < sipa> and i don't think that is something we want at all 09:24 < stickies-v> i think perhaps one way of summarizing is: static libraries is better (i.e. more efficient and maintainable build system) than not having libraries, and shared libraries don't offer any additional benefit that we need here (because we don't want anyone outside of core to use our internal libraries) 09:25 < stickies-v> 4. What's the purpose of having both an internal `libbitcoin_kernel` and an external `libbitoinkernel`? 09:25 < monlovesmango> interesting, hadn't thought about discouraging use outside of bitcoin core 09:25 < sipa> i feel this is a bit of a false dichotomy too... you can still having static internal libraries as intermediate build products/organization, and then compile them into a shared library 09:26 < sipa> shared libraries in that regard in contrast to having executables 09:26 < hebasto> ^ exactly 09:27 < hebasto> and internal static lib is a a contrast to just a bunch of object files 09:27 < sipa> right 09:28 < maxedw> Is the reason that it's not much effort to have both so why not 09:28 < maxedw> static still preferable for bitcoind and shared for others to use 09:28 < hebasto> to have a shared library, the well defined stable interface must go first 09:29 < hebasto> it makes sense for external libs only 09:29 < abubakarsadiq_> Does this mean their is no functionality distinction between `libbitcoin_kernel` and `libbitoinkernel`? 09:30 < hebasto> no 09:30 < hebasto> one is a build unit 09:30 < hebasto> another has (will have) a stable versioned API 09:30 < stickies-v> hebasto: that's not true at the moment, though? 09:31 < fanquake> abubakarsadiq: correct. the code in either is essentially the same 09:31 < monlovesmango> it says that libbitcoinkernel API is not ready. if we are making internal libbitcoin_kernel now will that have to keep up with changes from external library? 09:31 < hebasto> * my "no" means "no distinction" -- sorry\ 09:32 < stickies-v> oh, i see, thanks! 09:32 < stickies-v> monlovesmango: both libraries are built from the same source files, so they are 100% in sync 09:32 < monlovesmango> gotcha thank you! 09:32 < hebasto> the only difference is `-DBUILD_BITCOIN_INTERNAL` flag 09:33 < hebasto> so, not 100% the same 09:34 < TheCharlatan> (and kernel/bitcoinkernel.cpp for providing the translation function pointer) 09:34 < hebasto> yeap 09:35 < stickies-v> I think at some point in the future, we _could_ have a separate libbitcoinkernel project that produces a shared library, and then i think we wouldn't have use for an internal `libbitcoin_kernel` static library in core anymore? correct? 09:35 < stickies-v> although that may complicate things if/when we want to make core-specific changes to the kernel 09:37 < monlovesmango> stickies-v: can you explain why? seems like libbitcoinkernel already was a shared library but we are still making an internal one to replace it. why would that change if it became a separate project? 09:37 < hebasto> we ship shared libconsensus and libkernel compiled with `-DBUILD_BITCOIN_INTERNAL` 09:38 < stickies-v> monlovesmango: that's basically what one of the next questions is about, so let me just launch that question already: 09:38 < hebasto> for bitcoind we need code compiled without `-DBUILD_BITCOIN_INTERNAL` 09:38 < stickies-v> 6. How are we using kernel functionality in Bitcoin Core before this PR, if there is no internal library? 09:40 < hebasto> we use an alternative -- a old good list of object files compiled from source 09:42 < stickies-v> so to answer monlovesmango: as said before: using static libs is better than not using libs (which is the current state), the shared libbitcoinkernel isn't really used anywhere, we just build it 09:42 < stickies-v> so we're not replacing anything, we're just improving the build system 09:43 -!- henmeh [~henning@2a02:8070:4686:d820:923:6c6b:e60e:7c62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:43 < monlovesmango> that makes sense 09:44 < monlovesmango> why in the notes does it mention libbitcoinkernel already existing if this pr is creating it? or am I misunderstanding? 09:45 < stickies-v> monlovesmango: libbitcoinkernel is the (existing) shared library. libbitcoin_kernel is the new static one 09:45 < hebasto> ^ and internal one 09:46 < stickies-v> 7. Why does the `libbitcoinkernel_la_SOURCES` source file list specifically include `$(libbitcoin_util_a_SOURCES)` and `$(libbitcoin_consensus_a_SOURCES)` but `libbitcoin_kernel_a_SOURCES` doesn't seem to? 09:48 < monlovesmango> so hebasto said that current state we use a list of object files compiled from source, were these maintained to be in line with libbitcoinkernel? or libbitcoinkernel was built from these? 09:48 -!- ___nick___ [~quassel@host81-129-235-34.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:50 < monlovesmango> is it bc it is archive and sources have already been compiled into library? 09:50 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@2601:241:8703:7b30:ddf:8d29:3ae5:2] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:52 < hebasto> we want to compile `libbitcoinkernel` with `-DBUILD_BITCOIN_INTERNAL`, that's why we have to compile `libbitcoin_consensus_a_SOURCES` one more time, and not reuse already compiled internal lib, which was compiled without that flag 09:52 -!- monloves_ [monlovesma@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/monlovesmango] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 09:55 < monloves_> hello? 09:55 < stickies-v> monlovesmango: see https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/983d0978a973a12c3128b2c8e13b73ed08155e67 09:56 < TheCharlatan> Besides, next to having to define `-DBUILD_BITCOIN_INTERNAL` during compilation, it is not possible to for our internal libraries and end artifacts (like bitcoind) to eventually link against the external libbitcoin_kernel. Not only does the external libbitcoin_kernel have more symbols (like the translation function pointer), but it is also not possible to statically link a dynamic library 09:56 < stickies-v> we add `$(LIBBITCOIN_KERNEL)` to `bitcoin_bin_ldadd` 09:56 < TheCharlatan> (which the external libbitcoin_kernel is). 09:56 -!- monlovesmango [monlovesma@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/monlovesmango] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:56 < stickies-v> so we link directly to the (new) libbitcoin_kernel 09:57 < stickies-v> TheCharlatan: thanks a lot for the extra info! 09:57 < TheCharlatan> damn, this naming is has, should be external libbitcoinkernel :P 09:57 < monloves_> thank you will read that over! 09:58 < stickies-v> we're almost at time, so just gonna lqunch the last question: 09:58 < stickies-v> 9. Commit 5a6a0b1 de-duplicates the source file list. Are there any changes to the source file list used for `libbitcoinkernel`? 09:58 < stickies-v> (link: https://github.com/bitcoin-core-review-club/bitcoin/commit/5a6a0b1693cf739a5e6cc1161160a1d621d215f9) 09:59 < abubakarsadiq_> I dont think there are any 10:03 < stickies-v> abubakarsadiq_: what about libbitcoin_util_a_SOURCES including $(BITCOIN_CORE_H)? 10:03 -!- marcofleon [~marcofleo@75.105.37.5] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 10:04 < stickies-v> we're a bit over time already so i'm going to end the meeting here, but we can continue the discussion for a bit longer on this last question for those who want to! 10:04 < stickies-v> #endmeeting 10:04 -!- marcofleon [~marcofleo@75.105.37.5] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:05 -!- marcofleon [~marcofleo@75.105.37.5] has quit [Client Quit] 10:05 < maxedw> thanks stickies-v! I'll hang round for a bit 10:06 < monloves_> same 10:06 < pablomartin> sure 10:06 < abubakarsadiq_> stickies-v Ahh missed that, thought there is no change in functionality means source list will stay the same 10:06 < abubakarsadiq_> Thanks for hosting 10:08 < pablomartin> stickies-v: sorry, did we miss the #8? 10:09 < stickies-v> pablomartin: yeah we skipped that for running out of time, i'll have to run myself but feel free to discuss here though and hopefully people will chime in 10:09 < TheCharlatan> After some change requests from reviewers, I decided to leave some of the small utilities in the util library, that previously were not used or part of the kernel, but which don't import further functionality, like `spanparsing`, `bytevectorhash`, and `readwritefile`. So the file list and thus the content of the kernel library does change a bit. They might be moved at later point though if 10:09 < TheCharlatan> they prove in the way of things. See https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28690#discussion_r1408086308 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28690#discussion_r1416392404. 10:10 < pablomartin> ok, nw, cheers! many thanks for preparing this meeting 10:10 -!- pakaro [~pakaro@184.144.241.230] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:10 < monloves_> so i'm a bit slow, what were the changes to the source file list? how would you determine that? 10:10 -!- guest-127 [~guest-127@212.129.80.60] has quit [Quit: Client closed] 10:10 < pakaro> hi, very late, sorry 10:10 < monloves_> do you manually have to check each previous dependency? 10:11 < monloves_> yeah thanks for hosting stickies-v and TheCharlatan! 10:11 < abubakarsadiq_> for 8 `CPubKey::RecoverCompact` defined in pubkey.h is part of the consensus, previously util library has message.cpp which uses RecoverCompact in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/c46cc8d3c1a6250d56b68abb184db344565eff34/src/util/message.cpp#L46 10:11 < abubakarsadiq_> This means util lib depends on consensus_lib 10:11 < abubakarsadiq_> But in this PR message.cpp is moved to common, common already depends on consensus. 10:12 -!- pakaro [~pakaro@184.144.241.230] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13 < pablomartin> thanks abubakarsadiq! 10:18 < pablomartin> TheCharlatan: I see... you mean on your latest push: from 5a23504 to 2086d1d 10:20 -!- kevkevin [~kevkevin@98.226.43.69] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:24 -!- Talkless [~Talkless@mail.dargis.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:37 -!- monloves_ [monlovesma@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/monlovesmango] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43 -!- instagibbs2 [~instagibb@pool-100-15-116-202.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:44 -!- monlovesmango [monlovesma@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/monlovesmango] has joined #bitcoin-core-pr-reviews 10:45 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-116-202.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:45 -!- instagibbs2 is now known as 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