--- Log opened Tue Oct 28 00:00:32 2014 00:02 -!- koshii [~0@node-ag0.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:02 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p5B3AB10B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- koshii_ [~0@node-ydo.pool-101-109.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:08 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16 -!- pen [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:23 -!- OX3_ [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:24 -!- jaekwon1 [~Adium@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:25 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:29 -!- Greed` [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:32 -!- Greed [~Greed@unaffiliated/greed] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:32 -!- Greed` is now known as Greed 00:32 -!- jokosh [~sark@37-252-108-40.ip.skylogicnet.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:33 -!- jokosh [~sark@37-252-108-40.ip.skylogicnet.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- jaekwon [~Adium@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:42 -!- jaekwon [~Adium@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:44 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:48 -!- pen [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:50 -!- OX3_ [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54 -!- EasyAt [~EasyAt@46.19.139.88] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- EasyAt [~EasyAt@46.19.139.88] has quit [Changing host] 00:54 -!- EasyAt [~EasyAt@unaffiliated/easyat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p5B3AB10B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 00:59 -!- jaekwon1 [~Adium@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 < Luke-Jr> sipa: what should I call it? :/ 01:00 < sipa> why do you want to rename it? it processes a block... 01:01 < Luke-Jr> sipa: because the behaviour is not what it has been up until and including 0.9 01:01 < Luke-Jr> and it's changed in a way that makes subtle bugs introduced by that confusion likely 01:01 < sipa> imho the previous behaviour was just buggy - it could return validation failure about other blocks 01:02 < Luke-Jr> hm 01:02 < Luke-Jr> actually, it would be nice of submitblock gave a conclusive reject if a parent block was found to be invalid.. 01:02 < Luke-Jr> ancestor* 01:02 < sipa> you're right that there is a behaviour change, as it now does not report _any_ failure anymore of particular types anymore 01:03 < sipa> but as that couldn't be relied upon anyway, i consider it to have been a bug to return it there in the first place 01:04 < Luke-Jr> was there any case that the invalid state would have been entirely unrelated to the pblock before? I'm not sure there was? 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 < Luke-Jr> it should only process other blocks, if the new one is triggering a reorg - therefore, those blocks being processed are all ancestors of the current one 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:06 < sipa> right 01:06 < sipa> orphan processing had already a special case to not return status via cvalidationstate 01:07 < sipa> (which was a problem on itself, because it meant no reject messages for those) 01:07 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@ip51cd0972.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:08 -!- jaekwon [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08 < Luke-Jr> sipa: so you disagree with renaming it at all now? I should just change it back and document it? 01:08 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:08 * Luke-Jr thinks it'd be best to rename it just to be safe, but whatever 01:09 < sipa> it won't hurt to rename it, but i have no better suggestions 01:10 < Luke-Jr> ProcessNewBlock? 01:10 < Luke-Jr> safe to assume they are always new? :p 01:11 < sipa> ok 01:14 < Luke-Jr> sipa: btw, kryo_ finally did shut up 01:25 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:26 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@33.Red-79-158-209.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@33.Red-79-158-209.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:28 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] 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cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:31 < gandalf> http://www.reddit.com//r/Bitcoin/comments/2kgonk/monetas_brings_colored_coins_to_btcd/ 03:31 < gandalf> isn't open transactions still subject to require trust on whoever is hosting the server? 03:38 -!- jisno [~jiss@li59-64.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:44 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:49 -!- orperelman [~wboy@bzq-79-183-8-242.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:02 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:05 -!- Nomos7 [~textual@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:09 -!- adam3us [~Adium@c31-67.i07-8.onvol.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:10 < Eliel> gandalf: if you only use one server, then yes. However, as I've understood it, you can use as many servers as you want and only one of them needs to be trustworthy 04:12 < Eliel> also, I'm not sure if opentransactions does it but it's technically possible to build a system where the system as a whole could be trustworthy even if none of the servers could be trusted, as long as you can trust that not all of them are dishonest in the same way. 04:13 < gandalf> yeah but if all members of the voting pool go offline how can i retrieve my money? 04:13 < gandalf> what if all members of a voting pool are dishonest? 04:15 < Eliel> well, in that case you better make sure you run one of the servers you're using :P 04:19 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@135.Red-83-60-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@37-251-2-42.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:32 -!- warptangent [~warptange@192.227.139.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32 -!- warptangent [~warptange@192.227.139.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:41 -!- Aquent1 [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42 -!- Aquent1 [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:45 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:53 -!- Nomos7 [~textual@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 16:52 -!- petahash [~petahash@d173-183-96-243.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:56 -!- orperelman [~wboy@bzq-79-183-8-242.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56 -!- orperelman [~wboy@bzq-79-183-8-242.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:01 -!- zooko [~user@71-218-252-93.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:04 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:05 -!- kjj21_000 [~kjj210000@2604:2000:d0e0:5c00:833:b8d0:133c:f94] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05 -!- kjj21_000 [~kjj210000@2604:2000:d0e0:5c00:5977:73da:e52:5e0c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:08 -!- mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:22 -!- crowex [~crowex@88-106-107-166.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:22 -!- petahash [~petahash@d173-183-96-243.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:30 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:31 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34 -!- wiretapped [~wiretappe@gateway/tor-sasl/wiretapped] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:36 -!- wiretapped [~wiretappe@gateway/tor-sasl/wiretapped] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:36 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:39 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:41 < gmaxwell> 17:39 < justanotheruser> Wouldn't sidechains have full node security given that you could have fraud proofs that prove A) A block is the incorrect size using a merkle sum tree, B) A transaction script doesn't evaluate to true, C) A transaction has a previous tx that wasn't in the utxo at the time (proof that it was already spent) 17:42 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42 < gmaxwell> only if (1) the rules were all identical (yuck) and even then not really because the proof can be arbritarily large. 17:43 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:43 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:43 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@162.245.22.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:44 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:45 -!- zenojis [~quassel@2604:3400:dc1:45:216:3eff:fe76:3263] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:46 -!- mortale [~mortale@gateway/tor-sasl/mortale] has quit [Quit: mortale] 17:48 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: Even if all rules aren't identical, couldn't you just have full node security between identical child-chains? It appears to me that in case A the proof size would be either the size of a tx plus a branch of the merkle tree OR the entire merkle trees size. For B it would just be the size of a tx script (assuming the script isn't dependent on other tx in the utxo or something). For C, it appears the proof would ... 17:48 < justanotheruser> ... be the size of a branch of a merkle tree plus the size of a tx. 17:48 -!- orperelman [~wboy@bzq-79-183-8-242.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:55 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:56 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 17:56 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 -!- crowex [~crowex@88-106-107-166.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@108.53.250.221] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:02 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@108.53.250.221] has quit [Changing host] 18:02 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@unaffiliated/bitjedi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:02 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@49.Red-83-42-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:05 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 18:05 -!- Taek [~quassel@2001:41d0:1:472e::] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:05 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@135.Red-83-60-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:15 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:15 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:15 < justanotheruser> I do agree that it would be difficult for chains with different rulesets to be full node security, but I think it may be possible if you standardize how an opcode is defined (among a set of sidechains that allow this feature). 18:16 < gmaxwell> justanotheruser: No, not quite full node. If its identical and if all the requirements are met for fraud proof being compact (your list is not sufficient), and if you're not considering the censorship of the proof.. then you get something which is in-between because of the censorship risk. 18:18 < justanotheruser> gmaxwell: how is a full node fraud proof more censorable than an SPV fraud proof? 18:19 -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us2x.mullvad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 < gmaxwell> SPV security implies an assumption about the hashrate, a minority of the hashrate cannot persistantly censor. 18:20 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@c-24-131-0-5.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 18:21 < justanotheruser> Oh, I thought you were talking about propogation censorship 18:21 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@172.Red-83-42-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:23 < justanotheruser> I agree. Censorship means that there can only be spv security until full block proofs are a requirement assuming the same hashing power between chains. 18:24 < justanotheruser> Or the same set of miners having the same hashing power I should say. If it is a different set of miners, two chains could have the same hashing power with one chain having a 51% miner. 18:25 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@49.Red-83-42-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:25 < bitjedi> any coin devs want to take on a side alt-coin dev project (paid)? let me know. I have too many projects. 18:25 < bitjedi> it's not a pegged-sidechain alt 18:26 < bitjedi> because the economics for that are retarded 18:26 < justanotheruser> bitjedi: #bitcoin-otc 18:26 < bitjedi> ok 18:26 * bitjedi slithers back into the shadows 18:28 < amiller> here's a thing that's bothering me about the usual presentation of sidechains, this is inspired from a conversation with zooko 18:28 < amiller> there's no difference generally between "inflating" a coin by printing more money to give to miners, and imposing a "tax" where a portion of everyone's money is taken to give to miners 18:29 < amiller> even though there's no real difference, i think the former is perceived as more tolerable than the latter. 18:29 < amiller> however, in sidechains, it's basically recommended to flip that around. 18:29 < gmaxwell> I think both are non-starters and are uninteresting. 18:30 < amiller> if miners on a sidechain are going to receive mining fees, then it either has to come from inflating the sidechain coin relative to its bitcoin peg, or it has to come from reducing sidechain user's holdings 18:31 < maaku> amiller: there is a difference, but it's OT here 18:32 < amiller> if both of those are non-starters (and based on the sidechains paper) i guess you're recommending having sidechain mining rewards only come from transaction fes 18:32 < amiller> fees 18:32 < gmaxwell> amiller: it comes from the same place Bitcoin miners fees come from long term; transaction fees. 18:33 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 -!- Nomos7 [~textual@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:42 * BlueMatt likes namecoin as a sidechain - the fees people expect to pay for namespace/updates make for a less negative feeling when paying fees which go to miner security 18:42 < BlueMatt> ie people are already used to 10$/yr for a domain, not so much transaction fees (mostly they just dont see them, but still) 18:48 -!- Nomos7 [~textual@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:49 -!- Nomos7 [~textual@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:51 -!- Nomos7 [~textual@pool-71-163-233-84.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53 -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us2x.mullvad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58 -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us2x.mullvad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:04 -!- adam3us [~Adium@c31-67.i07-8.onvol.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:05 -!- kjj21_0000 [~kjj210000@2604:2000:d0e0:5c00:5977:73da:e52:5e0c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:07 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:08 -!- kjj21_000 [~kjj210000@2604:2000:d0e0:5c00:5977:73da:e52:5e0c] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:09 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:11 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@unaffiliated/bitjedi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@108.53.250.221] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:14 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@108.53.250.221] has quit [Changing host] 19:14 -!- bitjedi [~QuaCryptI@unaffiliated/bitjedi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:15 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-49-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:23 -!- Dr-G3 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:26 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:30 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:31 -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:44 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:44 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:57 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-49-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-49-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:03 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@172.Red-83-42-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03 -!- koshii [~0@node-9uo.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:13 -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:19 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:24 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:27 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:29 -!- Aquent1 [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:38 -!- chinjai [~yo@173-20-237-20.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:45 < Taek> demurrage/inflation makes sense to me for miner fees. The people with coins sitting in the sidechain/altcoin have a vested interest in it staying secure 20:45 < Taek> it's more of a luxury if fees alone are sufficient 20:46 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:47 < justanotheruser> Taek: the funny thing is miners can implement demmurage as a softfork whenever they want 20:48 < justanotheruser> Taek: also, at least two of the names on the sidechains paper would agree with you 20:48 -!- DoctorBTC [~DoctorBTC@unaffiliated/doctorbtc] has quit [Quit: Soooooooo outta here....] 20:49 -!- DoctorBTC [~DoctorBTC@unaffiliated/doctorbtc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:51 -!- Dizzle_ [~Dizzle@2605:6000:1018:c0f5:2439:d5a7:9483:f8b8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:52 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-49-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:52 -!- Dizzle_ is now known as Dizzle 20:54 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:57 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:59 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:09 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:10 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@173.247.202.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:10 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:17 -!- KingCoin [~KingCoin@unaffiliated/kingcoin] has quit [Quit: KingCoin] 21:18 -!- pen [~linker@118.69.162.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:20 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: huh? no they cant! 21:20 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: only if the sidechain is set up to auto-demmurage on stolen coins 21:21 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: they could freeze all outputs that don't honour their demurrage rules 21:22 < Luke-Jr> so technically, miners could enforce demurrage on bitcoin today 21:22 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: that would be a soft-fork to require miner fees, essentially 21:22 < BlueMatt> not the same thing 21:22 < Luke-Jr> pretty much the same thing IMO *shrug* 21:23 < BlueMatt> to make it equivalent they'd need to keep 51% forever 21:23 < BlueMatt> so not at all the same thing 21:23 < justanotheruser> 00:22 < BlueMatt> to make it equivalent they'd need to keep 51% forever 21:23 < justanotheruser> that is what a softfork requires after all 21:23 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: that's true of any softfork 21:23 < BlueMatt> softfork requires more than miners, remember... 21:23 < BlueMatt> for a softfork to be a softfork people have to enforce it as well 21:24 < BlueMatt> otherwise its just a 51% attack 21:24 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: if you define a 51% attack that way, yeah 21:24 < Luke-Jr> it's soft because it only requires miners 21:24 < BlueMatt> no, they are two very different concepts 21:24 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: only miners have ever been considered in proposals for softforks 21:24 < BlueMatt> HUH? 21:24 <@gwillen> welllll, it doesn't practically speaking require the cooperation of nonminers 21:25 <@gwillen> the outcome will be the same whether they cooperate or not 21:25 < BlueMatt> yes, and then its a 51% attack 21:25 <@gwillen> so, maybe at some moral or theoretical level, fine 21:25 < BlueMatt> the difference is without the cooperation of non-miners, people who are pissed can go buy hashpower 21:25 <@gwillen> but that doesn't really matter in practice 21:25 <@gwillen> hmm 21:25 < BlueMatt> but in a softfork that doesnt help 21:26 <@gwillen> yeah, that's true; if all the merchants switch to your softfork then the hashpower that doesn't switch doesn't matter 21:26 < Luke-Jr> a softfork isn't a softfork if it doesn't maintain 51% of miners 21:26 < BlueMatt> yes, then it actually is a softfork via economic majority :) 21:26 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: yes it is! 21:26 < Luke-Jr> no, the behaviour is essentially equivalent to a hardfork if it drops below 51% 21:26 < BlueMatt> if you do a softfork and then 99% of miners decide they dont want it anymore, the rules still apply 21:26 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: not to old nodes 21:26 < BlueMatt> you just lose 99% of mininer power to any new nodes 21:26 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: all softforks require a mining majority anyways. The only difference is the majority of full nodes may not use the softfork (which has probably been true for previous softforks) 21:26 < Luke-Jr> softfork isn't a hardfork because old nodes follow it 21:27 < BlueMatt> yes, but this is why softforks require buy-in from lots of the community....otherwise its only a softfork to a few people 21:27 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: nope, actually... 21:27 < Luke-Jr> if old nodes follow the more-work non-softforked chain, then the softfork is essentially a hardfork 21:27 < BlueMatt> softforks do to be enforced for old clients, but new clients can fork at will (ofc it gets fuzze depending on your definition of softfork) 21:28 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: depends on your definition 21:28 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: new clients can't fork at will. They require a miner majority to softfork 21:28 < BlueMatt> softfork definition is usually that its a stricly smaller set of valid transactions 21:28 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: what??? 21:28 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: I should ask the same of you. 21:28 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: any set of users can fork at will based on some softfork rules 21:29 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: if they're not the economic majority it doesnt matter much 21:29 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: a softfork without miner support is a hardfork because it makes what was previously "not the best chain" and makes it "the best chain" - same as making an invalid transaction valid 21:29 < justanotheruser> BlueMatt: new clients that fork without miner support are hardforking 21:29 < BlueMatt> but if bitpay+coinbase+all exchanges+all merchants decided they wanted fees to be paid to them in all transactions...they can go fork and do so 21:29 -!- adam3us [~Adium@c31-67.i07-8.onvol.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:29 < BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: ok, yes, this is where it just matters on what your definition of soft vs hardfork is, frankly I dont know what the consensus is here 21:30 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: to exclude that case, negates the meaningfulness of the distinction 21:30 < Luke-Jr> the only purpose to having two separate terms "softfork" vs "hardfork" is because of the distinctive difference 21:30 < BlueMatt> well it does still have one distinction: old clients can switch to the forked chain 21:30 < Luke-Jr> can, but won't. 21:30 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:30 < Luke-Jr> no practical difference 21:30 < BlueMatt> whether its smaller or not is important, but not all 21:30 < BlueMatt> well, maybe the new fork gets more mining power slower? 21:31 < BlueMatt> possible is actually important here in the longer run, depends on how long you dont have 51% mining power 21:31 < Luke-Jr> maybe 21:32 * Luke-Jr debates trusting 0.9.x, or waiting out for 0.10.x 21:33 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: can you elaborate on why 0.10.x may be a hardfork? 21:33 < BlueMatt> ->#bitcoin-dev, but I would be hesitant to trust 0.10...maybe till 0.10.X 21:33 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: huh? why would it be? 21:33 < BlueMatt> too big a release 21:33 < BlueMatt> justanotheruser: I believe it was not related to the previous conversation 21:33 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: you were discussing that a bug may cause it to be with wumpus in -dev iirc 21:33 < Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: yeah, but is it worth upgrading to 0.9.x for just a few months? :p 21:42 < justanotheruser> Luke-Jr: http://hastebin.com/yedelezazo.xml 21:49 -!- pen [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:51 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: oh, that. just pure risk 21:52 < Luke-Jr> more code churn = more risk of hardforking accidentally 21:59 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:01 -!- jedunnigan [~jedunniga@us2x.mullvad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:13 -!- eric [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14 -!- ericp4 [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:23 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-85.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:32 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35 -!- adam3us [~Adium@c31-67.i07-8.onvol.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75.101.96.71] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:02 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-85.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:09 -!- todaystomorrow [~me@d114-78-115-123.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:11 -!- todays_tomorrow [~me@d114-78-115-123.bla803.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:17 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-73.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:25 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:57 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p5B3ABF73.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:58 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:31fb:ce73:9397:d872] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] --- Log closed Wed Oct 29 00:00:33 2014