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11:09 < andytoshi> is anyone aware of a standard security property for multisignatures?
11:10 < andytoshi> which is not "any of the signers themselves can do anything; existential unforgeability for everyone else"
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11:11 < andytoshi> see http://eprint.iacr.org/2002/118 which uses that model
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11:57 < andytoshi>  oh, i'm lying, on page 11 it gives a security model ... an adversary is allowed to know every sk except one, and must prove this knowledge (e.g. by revealing the keys to the simulator)
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13:47 < devrandom> andytoshi: you don't mean multisig in the bitcoin sense, right?
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13:55 < andytoshi> devrandom: sure, bitcoin multisig is an example of a multisignature
13:57 < gmaxwell> Kind of a trivial example since an informal security argument is intutive; but good to have a formalism of it. Though all except one seems to only be thinking of the threshold gate case.
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13:59 < andytoshi> well, AND and OR are special cases of threshold gates (k = n and k = 1 respectively) ... though as you've mentioned it is not efficient to think of things this way since AND gates can be done with no interaction
13:59 < andytoshi> moving from a single gate to a circuit is a bit tricky, i'm not sure there is a standard sec property for that
14:04 < Eliel> would the algorithm outlined in that paper allow multisig that's not obviously multisig to an outside observer?
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14:08 < andytoshi> Eliel: i think no, it's expected that the verifier knows the list of signers
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17:14 < gmaxwell> Some NXT jackass on bct tech pumping NXT and his patent pending instant transaction magic is unduely irritating me, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737836.msg9406536#msg9406536
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17:18 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: the best response is to ignore
17:18 < BlueMatt> (always)
17:19 < kefkius> I like your responses
17:22 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: also, just lock the thread
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17:22 < BlueMatt> (or ban, that is always easy)
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17:24 < gmaxwell> yea, I've been temped to just deleted any point that plugs some altcoin without saying something technical... In this case (see my first response) I foolishly didn't because I thought I could impress on him the stupidity of that route.
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17:24 < gmaxwell> his later POS comments made it clear that he was clueless so the discussion was probably pointless.
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17:32 < kefkius> It's a shame there can't be reasonable altcoin discussion
17:34 < BlueMatt> there can be reasonable altcoin discussion, probalem is no altcoins are currently reasonable (read: technically competent)
17:34 < BlueMatt> well, ok, only a few are, but those usually have reasonable discussion :)
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18:03 < midnightmagic> lol. now he's going to try to punish you by doing what he intended to do to begin with. well. I guess it's your fault then if he makes waves that we all have to deal with.
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18:08 < midnightmagic> "You brought this on yourself. You could've been nice to me. Instead you made me angry. Now I'm going to punish everyone." Where have I heard that before..  Oh yeah: http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af187/Sculpt-Double/Syndrome/Syndrome_0018.jpg
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18:35 < gmaxwell> sipa: LOLOLOL
18:35 < gmaxwell> sipa: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=840252.0
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18:48 < gmaxwell> gah, bad idea of breaking pooling entirely seems like it's going to repeat monthly forever now http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l0ria/achieving_consensus_in_distributed_systems_that/
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20:28 < Taek> "Breaking pooling entirely (which has been proposed and debunked many times) would have enormously bad ramifications since then the easiest (any perhaps only) way to economically participate would be via hosted mining, which is far more damaging than pooling."
20:28 < Taek> I'm assuming this is only referring to situations where 1 miner gets paid every 10 minutes?
20:32 < gmaxwell> Taek: Anything that makes multiple miners get paid is _some_ form of pooling. E.g. p2pool.
20:32 < gmaxwell> (and what that post suggests would generally make all forms of pooling that I've seen infeasable)
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20:34 < Taek> ah. broader definition of pool than I had interpreted
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20:36 < gmaxwell> well I really mean all schemes that would be broken by the anti-pooling stuff being discussed. It breaks every kind of pooling I've seen... (e.g. you can try to make pooling irrelevant but at huge efficiency costs) but it doesn't break hosted mining.
20:37 < gmaxwell> Amiller has paper on breaking both pooling and hosted mining; but it doesn't break the latter in the real world, at least not currently, because no one seems to care if hosted mining can rob them or not.
20:38 < gmaxwell> (Amiller's system makes it so hosted mining can steal some of the income without being caught. ... but in practice today all hosted mining can steal income because none of their customers are interested in recieving proof that they're not... and it remains profitable)
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21:47 < Meisterbrau> http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/pol/4742269587.html
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21:54 < phantomcircuit> <gmaxwell> [03:37:23] Amiller has paper on breaking both pooling and hosted mining; but it doesn't break the latter in the real world, at least not currently, because no one seems to care if hosted mining can rob them or not.
21:54 < phantomcircuit> i still dont understand why not
21:55 < phantomcircuit> it's relatively easy to prove
21:55 < phantomcircuit> but virtually nobody cares
21:56 < Taek> Most of the real world operates under assumptions of trust
21:57 < Taek> I would be surprised if more than a few % of people use Coinbase's multisig feature
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21:58 < phantomcircuit> true
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22:04 < devrandom> kanzure: Saturn's Brood by Alastair Reynolds has an interesting story about interstellar slow money vs local fast money... not sure how plausible the econ / crypto is
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22:52 < GnarSith> yeah. but it's Neptune's Brood by Charles Stross
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22:59 < QuantumQrack> Although Alistair Reynolds is a great author as well. :-)
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23:43 < gandalf> hey super3 you online?
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 02 00:00:15 2014