--- Log opened Fri Nov 14 00:00:50 2014
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00:31 < gmaxwell> The recently chartered TCPINC (increased security) working group will be meeting at 0900 in the morning (hawaii time, gmt-10); discussed will be TCPcrypt (which is a really awesome and simple extension to tcp to add oppturnistic encryption) ... and a couple other proposals to not use that and instead use TLS, which I think are pretty bad ... because TLS.
00:33 < gmaxwell> https://tools.ietf.org/wg/tcpinc/agenda is the agenda (and links to the drafts and list archive), if you'd like to listen/participate there is a jabber chat rppm at tcpinc@jabber.ietf.org  (though if you're going to participate you shoul checkout the agenda and the drafts: https://tools.ietf.org/wg/tcpinc/agenda ) because the proposers of TCPcrypt are not very IETF savvy and the people pushing the TLS alternatives are very ietf ...
00:33 < gmaxwell> ... savvy; I expect it to get steamrolled pretty hard.
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00:35 < gmaxwell> May be of some interest to folks around here.
00:38 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, tls for opportunistic encryption of tcp?
00:38 < phantomcircuit> lol wat
00:40 < gmaxwell> yea, the proposal to use TLS is (IMO) daft, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rescorla-tcpinc-tls-option-01
00:43 < gmaxwell> People bitch that e.g. protocols from SDOs are sabotaged.... but if you don't show up to participate, ... well.. it's pretty easy to do so.
00:45 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, there is a picture of a rotting foot in that presentation
00:45 < phantomcircuit> wat
00:46 < gmaxwell> I think it's a foot-gunned foot.
00:46 < phantomcircuit> still
00:46 < phantomcircuit> come on
00:47 < gmaxwell> also.. pictures in an ietf presentation? man. ietf presentations should almost never have pictures. This is what I mean that the proposers are not that expirenced. (compare to the chair slides)
00:48 < gmaxwell> in any case, remote participants in the IETF are in-theory equal to people locally (clue weighed of course), I'm not one to stack rooms by calling for lots of clueless people; but I do think this is an area with lots of leverage for improving the internet; and one where lots of people who are regulars in _this_ room are qualified to have opinions.
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01:01 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, do you have a list of improvements to for merkle trees somewhere? (outside your head of course)
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01:05 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis-04.txt < the design in this document is a good basic hash tree.
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01:11 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, looks pretty standard except for perturbing an internal node differently from a leaf
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01:19 < phantomcircuit> ha oops current merkle tree code is wrong
01:19 < phantomcircuit> derp
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05:42 < petertod1> phantomcircuit: fwiw I wound up doing a bit of yak shaving and making that merbinner tree stuff into a bit of a serialization library; gonna have to write up a solid merkle tree implementation for it before long
05:43 < petertod1> phantomcircuit: well, actually, by yak shaving, I mean there's like a whole herd of very pissed off yaks out there right now...
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05:47 < petertod1> gmaxwell: oh, that's neat, just noticed rfc6962's algorithm is basically identical to my MMR construction, though I think they have a much better definition
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05:50 < petertod1> phantomcircuit: note too how in general you can always take hash functions and generalize them to summation functions if you want the merkle-summed version of an algorithm
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07:53 < kanzure> not quite directly applicable to bitcoin, but makes me think: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2//Predicting%20change%20propagation%20in%20complex%20design.pdf
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08:52 < nsh> kanzure, paper does not summarize any findings in abstract/introduction
08:52 < nsh> presumably, nothing of value was determined
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08:53 < kanzure> oh sure, you won't really regret not reading it
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09:10  * nsh nods
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10:11 < maaku> "In conclusion, we wasted 15 minutes of your valuable time in reading this paper."
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14:32 < sipa> maaku: ?
14:33 < maaku> sipa: joking off of <nsh> presumably, nothing of value was determined
14:43 < kanzure> reading papers is so fiat, obviously the right thing to do is to use induction and skip the whole thing
14:44 < kanzure> er, or inference.
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 15 00:00:51 2014