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06:06 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: re: proofmarshall, needed a serialization/deserialization library for cryptographic proofs; existing stuff like protocol buffers simply ignores the needs of deterministic hashing, among other things
06:07 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: the proofmarshal repo is just the subtree of my python-smartcolors repo sliced out for early publication; it's not very useful right now
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06:17 < gavinandresen> go1111111: I think Vitalik’s exponential subjective scoring might be brilliant. I’m thinking through a similar idea.
06:18 < andytoshi> posted on schneier's blog https://medium.com/stanford-select/keeping-secrets-84a7697bf89f
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12:08 < NewLiberty> I'm somewhat less enamoured of vitaliks Hypercube Scalability due to the dependance on merge mining for security which provides little actual security for individual dapps.  (miners can attack one while mining all others with very little opportunity cost)
12:09 < helo> have any of these oddball ideas of vitalik's held any water?
12:11 < helo> complicated enough to avoid dismissal by the average user
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12:13 < pigeons> helo: schellingcoin: NO, futurarchy: NO, dagger POW: NO, slasher pos: i wouldnt know, i'd guess no
12:14 < kanzure> is that a list of his previous proposals?
12:14 < pigeons> the ones i remember as being obviously unworkable
12:14 < helo> does he ever retract the ideas, or just move onto something else that nobody listening within two degrees has the ability to critique?
12:15 < pigeons> he admits the flaws and says the next iteration is now awesome
12:15 < helo> so he makes them more complicated
12:15 < NewLiberty> The Merkle-Patricia tree is pretty cool
12:16 < sipa> the one alan reiner came up with, or the one by michael gronager, or the one by mark friedenbach, or the one by answer miller?
12:16 < sipa> helo: it's called proof-of-review :)
12:16 < phantomcircuit> NewLiberty, very little? as implemented all current merged mined coins can be attacked with virtually no opportunity cost or consequence
12:17 < sipa> helo: complicate the proposal until new reviewer can find a flaw anymore
12:17 < sipa> *no reviewer
12:17 < helo> it's too easy :/
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12:17 < phantomcircuit> sipa, his plan is the same as always
12:17 < phantomcircuit> iterate until reviewers get tired of reviewing
12:18 < NewLiberty> ok maybe very little > virtually none
12:18 < NewLiberty> but I think we agree anyhow
12:19 < phantomcircuit> at this point he's been wrong so many times
12:19 < phantomcircuit> i think the burden of proof should be on him to show that it's right
12:20 < kanzure> i'm not sure how to fix reviewer exhaustion attacks like that
12:20 < kanzure> because even if you demand payment, he can pay.....
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12:20 < kanzure> (and payment doesn't necessarily fix the actual exhaustion)
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12:23 < kanzure> it could be something like, "if none of the mental thinking that went into generating the prior reviews was acknowledged and incorporated into this latest iteration, then the payment should be order-of-magnitude larger for wasting the reviewer's time" but there's no simple way to computationally show this violation has happened
12:23 < gmaxwell> Whats odd to me is that a lot of these proposals are old and already abandoned. He never seems to cite his sources.
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12:24 < kanzure> (of course, i'm talking about the general case, and not vbuterin specifically)
12:24 < phantomcircuit> i would say charge for reviews but then he'd abuse them
12:24 < phantomcircuit> maybe charge for private reviews
12:25 < gmaxwell> Sure, its not unique there... though most places doing this are easier to exclude on the basis of a complete absense of saying anything technical at all.
12:25 < kanzure> you should just skip that step and have him pay for design work instead
12:25 < NewLiberty> require academic rigor before review...
12:25 < kanzure> academic rigor like spoofing sources or spinning a web of self-cites?
12:26 < gmaxwell> There certantly has been a fair amount of design-by-tournament; but annoyingly behaving in a way that discourages that-- e.g. not expending a lot of time to critique random ideas peopel show up with-- has hurt the level of discussion around here.
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12:27 < kanzure> oops, i also should have tacked on a disclaimer with my last message as well (wasn't talking about vbuterin, just a well-known way of spoofing academic rigor)
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12:27 < helo> despite some pretty heroic efforts, there just aren't enough reviewers
12:28 < fenn> nobody's getting paid to review papers
12:28 < gmaxwell> it's more than that... it's incredibly important to reduce anything in this space to a maximally simple construction; because too complex just means unreviable even if you have a bunch of reviewers.
12:28 < kanzure> fenn: he recently acquired 30k BTC, so he could just pay forever and still waste everyone's time
12:31 < NewLiberty> Measuring "too complex" is the trick.  Everything in one's own mind seems simple.  Need more 5 yr olds to explain things to for checking this.
12:32 < fenn> kolmogorov complexity is not perfect but at least measurable
12:32 < gmaxwell> NewLiberty: I'm not sure that thats actually been a problem. I think a lot of people in this space are not even trying / don't actually see the issue.
12:33 < tromp_> fenn: kolmogorov complexity can only be upperbounded
12:33 < tromp_> fenn: on all but a finite number of strings
12:34 < NewLiberty> The problem of "too much to do and not enough people that can" is well understood.  With a complexity metric based reviewer cost, at least there might be some feedback.
12:35 < NewLiberty> The "not enough people that can" is what gives you a defacto pass on core dev / blockstream conflict of interest issues.
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12:36 < phantomcircuit> NewLiberty, there really isn't a conflict
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12:37 < NewLiberty> There is, but this isn't really the place for that discussion.
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12:52 < fenn> does it make sense to establish a "bitcoin university" loosely following the academic model of peer review, classes, original research?
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14:10 < teaspoon> hi everyone, I wanted to ask about the capabilities of the protocol, people talk about time delayed payment… so can I set up an address where in a year's time the funds will be sent to another address?
14:10 < sipa> #bitcoin please
14:10 < teaspoon> ok
14:10 < teaspoon> thanks
14:11 < Luke-Jr> felt like a -wizards thing to me, since it'd need an OP_MATURITYVERIFY
14:11 < teaspoon> oh, so this is the place to ask?
14:12 < teaspoon> I'm a bitcoin protocol noob but still want to understand what's possible
14:12 < Luke-Jr> teaspoon: not if sipa asks you to keep it in #Bitcoin
14:12 < teaspoon> or what might be possible in the future
14:12 < teaspoon> ahh ok, he is mod?
14:12 < teaspoon> no problem then
14:12 < sipa> haha
14:13 < sipa> sorry, i may have misunderstood, but the question sounded to me like you didn't really understand the protocol, in which case this is not the place to learn
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14:13 < Luke-Jr> teaspoon: more importantly, he is liable to leave if he thinks the topic is lame and he's intelligent enough that we want him around :p
14:14 < teaspoon> you are correct, I don't understand the protocol in depth only at a functional level
14:14 < teaspoon> i.e. from a user's perspective
14:14 < Luke-Jr> a user's perspective has approximately nothing in common with the protocol
14:14 < Luke-Jr> so #bitcoin is probably the right place for your questions
14:15 < teaspoon> ok
14:15 < sipa> Luke-Jr: if at any point i choose to leave, that's just because i feel my time is better spent not following a channel, and nobody should feel bad about that :)
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15:13 < moa> http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/11/18/1830229
15:13 < kanzure> .title
15:13 < yoleaux> 404 File Not Found
15:14 < moa> http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/11/18/1830229/launching-2015-a-new-certificate-authority-to-encrypt-the-entire-web
15:14 < moa> sry
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19:12 < amiller> i have a new implementation of nonoutsourceable puzzles using libsnark that's 1000x faster than with pinocchio
19:12 < amiller> could stealthily steal a block in under 15 seconds
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19:22 < petertodd> amiller: +1
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19:30 < Luke-Jr> amiller: do you have a way to use libsnark with externally-provided input/code?
19:30 < Luke-Jr> (non-outsourcable puzzles isn't really useful AFAIK)
19:30 < amiller> bs
19:31 < amiller> i'd accept that with a qualified "yet" i guess :;
19:31 < amiller> :p
19:31 < amiller> Luke-Jr, do you mean, do we have a compiler that uses libsnark from some kind of higher-level input language?
19:32 < Luke-Jr> amiller: bytecode would be fine
19:32 < Luke-Jr> what are non-outsourcable puzzles useful for?
19:32 < amiller> libsnark already has a gadget library so you can kind of build snark routines from an embedded language
19:33 < Luke-Jr> amiller: I want to run SNARKs on systems without a compiler ;)
19:33 < amiller> luke-jr, the system chekcing snark proofs / proving snark proofs doesn't need a copmiler...
19:34 < Luke-Jr> checking isn't the side I'm interested in at the moment
19:34 < Luke-Jr> I'm thinking more like having BFGMiner generate SNARK results with signatures
19:35 < amiller> mm, okay
19:35 < Luke-Jr> ie, proof-of-any-kind-of-work
19:35 < amiller> okay, well, anyway, just en route to our new implementation we made a compiler from pinocchio circuits to libsnark
19:36 < amiller> so, you could use that as a preprocessor given an input circuit and you'd have an exe that just does the proofs you want.
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19:36 < Luke-Jr> executing arbitrary x86 code isn't safe
19:36 < amiller> it's not arbitrary x86 code
19:37 < Luke-Jr> an EXE is
19:38 < amiller> look if i give you some source code for a snark system, you either a) have a compiler on your system (which you seemed opposed to) or b) you compile elsewhere and transfer the exe t your machine (which you also opposed)
19:38 < amiller> i think i just misunderstood what you were saying are your requirements
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19:39 < amiller> i suddenly think i get it, you want to pass in an arbitrary snark descriptoin file or something but not have a C compiler on your machine
19:39 < Luke-Jr> amiller: or c) an interpretor that produces a result + signature by interpreting some kind of safe bytecode
19:39 < Luke-Jr> yes
19:40 < amiller> okay, sure, there's no obstacle to that, on the other hand we definitely haven't bothered with it.
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20:16 < amiller> Luke-Jr, even weakly nonoutsourceable puzzles would severely break up mining pools, but people would still flock to hosted mining, now even more so
20:16 < amiller> Luke-Jr, strongly non-outsourceable puzzles are one part of a balanced breakfast that would disincentivize even cloud mining
20:17 < Luke-Jr> amiller: how so?
20:17 < Luke-Jr> non-outsourcable puzzles don't seem to have any possible effect on cloud mining
20:18 < amiller> i need to start with a couple of assumptions
20:19 < Luke-Jr> is one of them "people don't have recourse to a court of law"?
20:19 < amiller> assumption 1: user's don't *inherently* trust cloud providers, if there's a way for them to get away with ripping off the client undetected, then client's are suspicious they'd take it
20:19 < amiller> no, court of law is part of my attack model
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20:19 < amiller> but you can only win in court if you have evidence
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20:20 < Luke-Jr> assumption 1's second half is flawed: already cloud mining can rip off the client undetected and people use it
20:20 < Luke-Jr> amiller: evidence that can be acquired in part by subpoenas..
20:20 < amiller> i think that there's a way to improve on the scenario here actually
20:21 < amiller> right now because mining is pretty low variance by cloud miner standards,
20:21 < amiller> clouds can basically offer people a fixed rate of return and it would be conspicuous if it underperformed
20:21 < amiller> even then i think it's pretty obvious they could get away with ripping people off and they still don't, so i do get your point.
20:22 < amiller> a) maybe this assumption will make more sense in the (hopefully) near future, or besides that on the other side of the dystopic apocalypse, after which everyone who's trusting like that gets fleeced.
20:23 < Luke-Jr> also, if you're not careful, you break peoples' ability to be reimbursed part of their expenses for mining
20:23 < amiller> b) i'm focusing on getting done what i can based on this assumption because it gives a foothold but it's nontrivial how to make use of it, otherwise i don't see any other lever to use
20:23 < Luke-Jr> which means only those who can buy a large enough % to reduce variance would buy it at all
20:23 < amiller> not giving up looking for other levers, asic resistant puzzles are a different lever i guess
20:24 < amiller> Luke-Jr, part of my solution is how to reduce payout variance without requiring a high %
20:24 < Luke-Jr> ASIC resistant puzzles are theoretically impossible
20:24 < amiller> Luke-Jr, link to impossibility theorem pls
20:24 < Luke-Jr> amiller: it's basically by definition
20:24 < amiller> Luke-Jr, anyway i don't wnt to talk about asic resistant puzzles tonight regardless
20:24 < amiller> Luke-Jr, all theorems are by definition
20:25 < tromp_> have you read my Cuckoo Cycle paper, Luke-Jr?
20:26 < amiller> Luke-Jr, anyway are you cool with assumption 1: for the sake of discussion..
20:26 < Luke-Jr> ok, go on
20:27 < Luke-Jr> (actually, with assumption 1 I think it becomes more or less obvious it's useful/doable - the problem is assumption 1 :p)
20:27 < amiller> Luke-Jr, well no i don't think it's obvious at all
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20:27 < amiller> if you think so, lets swap and you can starting telling me how to solve it and i'll tell you why every lesser solution without snarks is flawed in some way :p
20:28 < Luke-Jr> lol, ok, better if you just continue since you've obviously given this more thought
20:28 < amiller> essentially, even though i want to assume there's no inherent trust, there is almost always (unless we engineer against it) some way that the server can make some arrangement where it gets caught if it tries to cheat.
20:30 < amiller> okay well, my solution relies on a couple further assumptions.
20:31 < amiller> assumption 2: people are in some cases (in sufficiently many cases which ill be more specific about later if this doesn't go off the rails immediately) willing to put money on negative-EV bets
20:31 < amiller> there's tons of empirical evidence that people do this, such as the market for state lotteries which generate billions of dollars in income annual
20:32 < amiller> it's clear that miners in many cases *end up* with a -EV proposition although it's more complicated because there's usually a temporal / prediction kind of thing
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20:34 < amiller> one component of my solution is exploiting this by having a more complicated payout function with consolation prizes
20:34 < amiller> if you look at the lottery games that perform the best in the market, they have a variety of prize levels.
20:34 < amiller> you scratch off one ticket, and have a small chance of winning a large jackpot but also a much greater chance of winning some number of consolation prizes worth a lot less
20:36 < Luke-Jr> right
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20:38 < amiller> so, i think there may be *some* set of plausible assumptions about how "the market" (the same market that is seduced into buying lottery tickets) responds to payoff functions,  where you can have a good outcome by making the block reward have a few components, including a) a low-variance, high chance of winning, low value consolation prize, that's found very frequently like p2pool shares, and b) a very unlikely, high-value, high var
20:38 < amiller> iance, jackpot prize
20:38 < amiller> the overall EV of mining in this case would be skewed by the jackpot prize.
20:39 < amiller> the low-variance component would be set well enough that a large market of people would play this game (i.e., participate in mining) even though even though *overall* the reward is negative EV.
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20:40 < amiller> the high variance component would be set high enough that 1) big mining companies would not be able just to promise people that they'd absorb all the risk from it
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20:44 < amiller> therefore any 2) any mining service provider would have to pass on *some* of the uncertainty to its clients or else it would go broke, in which case 3) there would be credible suspicion that if the service provider got lucky, it would take the reward for itself and its members would only see the unlucky option.
20:47 < Luke-Jr> so the very-high-variance reward would need to be sufficiently low-variance that it's credible to believe the hoster could possibly find it in the first place
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20:56 < amiller> Luke-Jr, yeah
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22:51 < spiftheninja> new channel with a dogebot, msg me if you wanna idle :D will tip, cheers
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