--- Log opened Fri Nov 21 00:00:57 2014
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01:14 < op_null> <gmaxwell > kanzure: there are some pretty strong monetary incentives to believe in varrious schemes right now.
01:14 < op_null> the amount of money being thrown into dubious altcoins makes it inevitable that people will attempt to come looking for assertion that various schemes will work, usually based on interpretations of hand waving and vague descriptions of deeply technical topics. the hashcoin "whitepaper" I was commenting on previously now has an extended version, somehow with even more jargon and nonsense than before, and there's an entire forum of people attempting
01:14 < op_null> .. to read deep reasoning into something that was written without it.
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06:46 < kanzure> "sure, but it's hard to read logs because you can't step in to ask stuff"
06:46 < kanzure> i think asking stuff about prior logs is a sane and reasonable thing for people to be encouraged to do
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07:01 < kanzure> generally, if people who have recently entered the channel would ask questions instead of demanding that everyone else is wrong, that would help improve my mood significantly. it should not be about picking fights.
07:01 < kanzure> as much as i like pos/alts.pdf/asic.pdf they may seem a little hostile in a few parts to those who might not even be aware of existing biases they may have been exposed to. to someone who is economically motivated to believe any given bad idea, tersely-written words telling them they are wrong could easily feel like reading schilling (economically motivated attacks against your beliefs or something). but of course, nobody should have to be ...
07:01 < kanzure> ... water down anything to avoid hurting feelings...
07:01 < kanzure> example, sentence 2 of pos.pdf says it's fundamentally flawed, and as true as that may be i think it would be more helpful (and less distracting to readers) to simply emphasize that it doesn't evade the same impossibility result that bitcoin does, for example...
07:01 < kanzure> andytoshi: did you put those up in a git repo somewhere? i see the sidechains paper repo on your github account, but not anything for asic.pdf/pos.pdf/alts.pdf etc..
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07:16 < andytoshi> kanzure: they are in personal git repos, i think all of them are at guessable urls under git://git.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/ but i could be wrong
07:16 < andytoshi> nowhere public ... i guess i should github them
07:18 < kanzure> cool
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09:12 < Taek> I was thinking, perfect decentralization... If every human on earth had equal mining power, _coin might be subject to massive sways in popular opinion.
09:13 < Taek> cheap verification is good but cheap participation is not necessarily so
09:15 < kanzure> what are you defining "perfect decentralization" as
09:16 < Taek> in this case, every human on earth having equal mining power
09:16 < Taek> I'll extend that to also having equal voting power when it comes to making changes to bitcoin-core
09:16 < kanzure> great now you have to define voting power :)
09:17 < Taek> heh... when a change has been proposed, everyone has the ability to vote, 51% say yes ==> change implemented
09:18 < Taek> everyone can propose changes
09:18 < kanzure> okay... and what happens when someone has a fork and excludes your change?
09:18 < Taek> depends on what the people with mining power decide to do
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09:19 < Taek> controvertial changes would probably fragment the network
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09:21 < Taek> the more relevant point I'm getting to is that a higher barrier to entry for being a miner might not be a bad thing.
09:22 < Taek> *high - it's already pretty high
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09:23 < kanzure> right now the way it works is that anyone can be a miner with a very low barrier to participation
09:24 < Taek> except you need specialized hardware, and a working knowledge of the mining market, the hashrate changes, and an understanding of electricity & hardware deprication costs
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09:24 < kanzure> you don't need specialized hardware to attempt to mine
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09:25 < tromp_> as long as you're happy with odds of making anything being lower than winning lottery
09:25 < kanzure> that's not about participation
09:26 < Taek> miners control softforks
09:26 < Taek> softforks are a form of participation
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09:29  * Eliel wonders if it'd actually make a significant dent to the hashrate if everyone in the world set up one computer to CPU mine :P
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09:31 < kanzure> let's be generous and say 500 MH/sec per cpu, assume 7 billion cpus, that might be about 1-2 exahashes?
09:31 < Eliel> assuming each of those mined at 5Mh/s, that'd make 25Ph/s ... ~10 of the network currently
09:31 < Eliel> 10%
09:31 < kanzure> wait why did i pick 500?
09:32 < Eliel> maybe you misread my cpu as gpu :P
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09:35 < Taek> it'd be more of a dent if manufacturers started shipping computers with small asics... if there was demand for it, I'm sure someone would sell the product.
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09:37 < Eliel> a bitcoin asic in every processor :P
09:37 < Eliel> would probably be pretty cheap
09:37 < Eliel> for a low powered one
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09:40 < helo> Eliel: would be pretty unprofitable too :/
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09:43 < tromp_> in germany, could&heat pays you to keep their cloudserver in your basement
09:43 < tromp_> so they save on cooling costs
09:44 < tromp_> still, that's only physical decentralization, which doesnt help:(
09:44  * Eliel wonders if there's a way to construct a PoW algo such that it's possible to combine lower difficulty results for the same data without O(n) verification.
09:45 < tromp_> where n is?
09:45 < Eliel> the number of lower difficulty results being combined
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09:46 < tromp_> ah, like compressing the shares?
09:46 < Eliel> yes, pretty much
09:46 < Eliel> but the point is not to save space but rather keep the verification cost reasonable
09:47 < Alanius> I guess you could generate a snark saying something like "I have solved the PoW puzzle n times for difficulty 1/n"
09:48 < tromp_> that seems exceedingly unlikely to be possible
09:48 < Alanius> why?
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09:49 < tromp_> sorry, was responding to Eliel:(
09:49 < tromp_> now that you mention snarks it seems less impossible:(
09:50 < Eliel> of course, you can probably just keep the best and get a good approximation :P
09:50 < Eliel> d'oh
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09:51 < Taek> I realized, right now 7 billion cpus might add up to 10% hashrate, and 7 billion gpus might be 200% or whatever, but that's not a fair equation
09:51 < Taek> if Bitcoin had 7 billion regular users, the market cap would be several orders of magnitude higher
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10:38 < instagibbs> helo: while unprofitable, people would lose such tiny amounts separately, and the aggregate security would be quite robust. 7B people spending a cent a day mining would give $70M in security a day. To me anything even close to this scenario is PoW's best chance long-term
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10:44 < helo> 7B people -.-
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10:46 < instagibbs> CPUs, whatever. Point being
10:48 < instagibbs> a large(how large? who knows) amount of people mining essentially altruistically for a small amount of money(?) would make PoW robust, or at least more robust than it is now
10:48 < instagibbs> #people x #cost = whatever security you want
10:49 < instagibbs> Maybe amiller has got it better and the -EV games mining can be figured out. But same result.
10:49 < kanzure> it is bad to assume altruism
10:49 < instagibbs> I assume nothing
10:49 < kanzure> because there are already working implementations that don't have to rely on altruism
10:49 < instagibbs> it's an observation that it's a possible result
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10:49 < instagibbs> ?
10:50 < kanzure> and what is your measurement of robust anyway
10:50 < instagibbs> for me im thinking of reorgs from attackers
10:50 < instagibbs> but what do you mean "already working impl"
10:51 < kanzure> proof of work.
10:51 < kanzure> reorgs are not always malicious
10:51 < instagibbs> if people are mining not at a loss, barring damage to system reputation, reorgs are basically free
10:52 < kanzure> and there's no real way to discriminate between "legitimate" and "illegitimate" reorgs
10:52 < instagibbs> and that's fine, if they accidetnally reorg that's on them
10:52 < instagibbs> has really nothing to do with "good" or "bad"
10:52 < helo> i'd guess the ratio of altruistic (at a loss) miners to population would be closer to 1:100 or 1:1000 than 1:1, even if every desktop CPU had a mining chip in it
10:52 < tromp_> or if a cpu friendly pow was used
10:52 < helo> is there validation-only mining software that only keeps the utxo?
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10:53 < instagibbs> im not even calling altruism "good" in this scenario. Just an observation of how expensive a deliberate attack would become.
10:53 < instagibbs> maybe a billion miners is a bad idea for reasons listed before with "voting" and mob mentality
10:56 < instagibbs> maybe the altruistic miners vote with their hashes to become gov coin :)
10:57 < helo> democracy is probably not too bad
10:57 < helo> better that than a mining dictatorship
10:58 < instagibbs> ASIC growing pains are tough
10:58 < helo> mining is tough... the competitiveness is just brutal
10:58 < instagibbs> I don't think I'm the only one who would mine at a small loss
10:59 < instagibbs> I'm just not willing to sink thousands into loss
10:59 < instagibbs> hence my theorizing about future. Just a dreamer
10:59 < kanzure> "gov coin" doesn't make senes
10:59 < kanzure> *sense
10:59 < helo> mining at a small loss probably means that your hardware is not only inefficient, but also very slow, compared to the majority of mining equiptment. so the actual security benefit would likely be pretty small.
10:59 < instagibbs> kanzure: you're really reading too much into what I'm saying. I'm just saying "altruism" means whatever the miner thinks is good
11:01 < instagibbs> they sacrifice something for the "greater good"
11:01 < kanzure> "the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others"
11:01 < instagibbs> yes, and that's different for different people
11:01 < kanzure> what a miner thinks is good is not at all necessarily related to being selfless, argh
11:02 < kanzure> if you redefine words it makes conversation impossible
11:02 < instagibbs> I'm sorry for being sloppy
11:02 < helo> it takes determined effort to be a significant mining contributor, even if you have large numbers of participants.
11:02 < instagibbs> an altruistic miner can think differently about what's good for others
11:02 < instagibbs> I could think for example, gov coin is a great idea. I'd be an idiot. Doesn't detract from my altruistic quotient.
11:03 < kanzure> so behaving non-altruistically counts as altruism?
11:03 < instagibbs> Your definition of what *actions* are required in altruism is different than others'
11:04 < instagibbs> I might think it's giving money to poor
11:04 < instagibbs> some might think euthenasia
11:04 < instagibbs> I'm not being facetious
11:04 < kanzure> so you just changed your mind?
11:04 < kanzure> a moment ago you were claiming "Doesn't detract from my altruistic quotient."
11:05 < instagibbs> Ok euthenasia example is great
11:05 < instagibbs> Some think cripples should be "put out of misery". Some don't. People, depending on their beliefs, may doing altruistic things to *either end*
11:05 < instagibbs> each side finds the other morally abhorrent
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11:06 < instagibbs> Mining policy, hard forks, etc, are subjective.
11:06 < instagibbs> Ok don't want to pollute the channel too much. Said my part.
11:07 < instagibbs> have a good one kanzure
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11:29 < Luke-Jr> ….
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11:33 < go1111111> is there some secret trick for searching for substrings in the #bitcoin-wizards logs (https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/)? I'd like to be able to search for "zer" and have it match "zero"
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11:37 < instagibbs> the search function on botbot seems to work for such purposes
11:38 < instagibbs> oh nevermind
11:38 < instagibbs> for some reason works only for your comment(i suppose because you wrote both "zer" and "zero" ends up highlighting both)
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11:39 < kanzure> go1111111: use grep
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11:44 < go1111111> kanzure: is there a way to download the full logs from that site that i'm not seeing? otherwise my grepping would be on incomplete data. it would be super useful to just be able to do this via the site. who maintains that page? maybe i can add the feature
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12:15 < andytoshi> go1111111: there are (incomplete) logs at download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/ that are easy to scrape and grep through
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12:37 < kanzure> go1111111: wget -m -np
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14:06 < op_null> with the comments earlier about 7B people each CPU mining is sort of insane from a heat and power standpoint. CPUs use a ridiculous amount of power per hash compared with an ASIC, it's very easy to forget that.
14:06 < op_null> "7B people spending a cent a day mining would give $70M in security a day. To me anything even close to this scenario is PoW's best chance long-term"
14:07 < sipa> what's the hash-per-watt factor between current cpu's and current asics?
14:07 < op_null> for me it's more like 60c a day, and my power costs are quite low compared with somewhere like Germany.
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14:08 < op_null> I think for my best CPU it's around 20MH/s at 95W TDP, plus a few tens of watts in support hardware and cooling.
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14:10 < op_null> the current best for an ASIC is something like 0.6GH (it all depends on the voltage you run them at), but KNCminer is claiming that their next batch (which they aren't selling to the public) will be around 0.05W/GH (assuming that's before the DC-DC, but still very impressive)
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14:25 < instagibbs> op_null: herp, I meant ASICs put on commodity machines. Something that doesn't exist ofc
14:27 < instagibbs> assuming magical future where hash per watt is "stable"
14:27 < op_null> instagibbs: I get the idea, but there's reasonably low utility in the heat that an asic puts out. you really want to keep the chips as absolutely cool as possible, so other than room heating system I can't think what it could be used for.
14:28 < op_null> I suspect phase change heating is probably better for that task anyway.
14:28 < instagibbs> op_null: Agreed. That's why I'm calling it altruistic. Ofc you'd need people to donate. Pretty much a PoB
14:30 < instagibbs> i wonder if water heater ASICs screw up incentives, like "useful" PoW... hmm
14:30 < op_null> "useful" PoW is pretty messed up already.
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14:52 < fenn> low temperature differential can be used for electricity generation, with diminishing efficiency as temperature drops
14:54 < op_null> hybrid Bitcoin miner / stirling engine?
14:55 < fenn> after seeing those photos of the mining farm on fire, probably better to worry about other engineering aspects first
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 22 00:00:58 2014