--- Log opened Sat Nov 22 00:00:58 2014 00:02 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust452.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:02 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust452.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:02 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:23 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:29 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:33 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:42 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:51 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined 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ZZZzzz…] 10:28 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180178181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:31 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:35 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-24-126-220-68.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-24-126-220-68.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:39 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:43 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:52 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:57 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] 10:57 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:03 < op_null> "Andreas Antonopoulos explained it well during the Texas Bitcoin Conference - a 51% attack isn't much of a threat any more since we can always fork the software and make the current ASICs obsolete." 11:03 < op_null> this is a terrible fallacy to have people sprouting. suddenly 300PH/s of mining hardware is made useless, the network is only supported by a few people piddling around with GPUs. how does anybody believe that is a viable behaviour? 11:06 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- cbeams_ [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:07 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 11:07 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 < op_null> I'm not particularly clear on what a "51% attack" is either. 11:15 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nnzrgcothjetivmz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 11:38 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 < andytoshi> op_null: i was there for the first 3 minutes of that talk -- the main point was "i, andreas, am awesome", i wouldn't read anything into his bitcoin comments because they were kinda an aside.. 11:51 < andytoshi> also in general, andreas saying dumb shit is something we are aware of and certainly a corcern re public understanding of bitcoin ... but there's not too much we can do about it 11:53 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-229-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:58 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-229-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:59 < op_null> andytoshi: I'm more confused by what a "51% attack" is than anything. 12:02 < woah> andytoshi op_null also, switching crypto to obsolete ASICs is pure centralization 12:03 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:04 < op_null> well, more to the point it leaves the network in a state where "all hands on deck" wouldn't be enough to secure it. 12:13 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:23 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:26 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-24-126-220-68.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@c-24-126-220-68.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:26 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:28 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180178181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e180178181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39 -!- OX3 [~OX3@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:51 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 < kanzure> i wonder what the best-case hypothetical fix could be to the problem that goes like "you are screwed if everyone decided (perhaps without full knowledge) to mine on a forked blockchain or to mine and transact on a blockchain that progressively incorporated changes that eventually in aggregate became incompatible" 12:59 < kanzure> it can't be "propose another set of rules and start mining on that blockchain", because the amount of hashing power available on the other chain could be trivially diverted to thwart your proof-of-work-backed-security on your blockchain 13:00 < kanzure> oh wait, no that's not true. worst-case or best-case (i don't know which) is "wait long enough until you have enough resources to divert a significant-enough-fraction of hashrate". 13:01 < kanzure> oops, one clarification to offer: presumably those in-aggregate-incompatible-changes on the main chain are rules that you fundamentally disagree with 13:01 < kanzure> and that would not be unreasonable for others to agree with, that do not particularly favor you in particular (for example) 13:03 -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:04 < kanzure> "convince everyone that you're right" just does not sound like a reasonable strategy at all 13:05 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-13-150-22-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:11 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@c-69-254-243-205.hsd1.ks.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11 < kanzure> it is also somewhat related to the problem of informing others about what the set of current bitcoin rules are. you can lie to them and send them wrong software, and their node will reject lots of transactions and blocks and otherwise seem to do bitcoin things, even if not using transactions recognized by merchants the user might know... 13:11 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:11 -!- mkarrer_ is now known as mkarrer 13:15 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:20 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:25 -!- rasengan [rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["WeeChat 0.3.7"] 13:26 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@33.Red-79-158-209.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:26 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@69.23.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:33 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I dunno, I think bitcoin already solves this as much as it can be solved. Your node will automatically ignore those people. Putting you on a seperate network. ... It doesn't guarentee the security of your seperate network, but it seems likely impossible to me to do so. 13:36 < gmaxwell> andytoshi, op_null: There is truth to the claim that we the users of bitcoin have mechenisms beyond the protocol to deal with protocol failures; ... but its a terrible true, because it's a sword that cuts both ways, enabling unbalanced changes by popular whim against the interests and will of some of the users. 13:36 < gmaxwell> The fact that it's not as simple as "no, that won't work" makes it harder to talk about, alas. 13:36 < gmaxwell> s/true/truth/ 13:38 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.111.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.111.112] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43 < op_null> gmaxwell: my main problem with comments like that is that they are mentioned in a totally off hand, almost blase way. as if "we'll just hard fork and everything will be peachy" has happened in the past with no big issue. 13:43 -!- rdponticelli [~quassel@gateway/tor-sasl/rdponticelli] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:43 -!- Aquent is now known as danvcoin 13:43 * gmaxwell rolls eyes 13:44 < gmaxwell> yea okay, thats nuts. For one, if things failed it's not like you can just push a magical fix button and make them fixed. 13:44 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@102.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:45 < op_null> a common one I see is when people mention SHA256 being weakened (say it's found to have a security of 12 bits, panic panic). the response is of course that we just switch to scrypt mining and everything is fine again. 13:45 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@102.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 -!- danvcoin is now known as Aquent 13:48 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@102.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@102.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:52 -!- rasengan [rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- rasengan [rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 13:54 < gmaxwell> op_null: sort of funny there since all the 'scrypt' mining stuff is also bottlenecked by sha256. 14:15 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:cc9f:a0fd:45f5:e902] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:17 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17 -!- berndj [~berndj@196-210-204-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:5df7:a6ed:71fc:5b9c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:22 -!- berndj [~berndj@196-210-204-171.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:22 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:5df7:a6ed:71fc:5b9c] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:28 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055172009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:30 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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This has put added costs on our organization and it has been a struggle. For those interested in helping, a small donation to Freenode's Dogecoin wallet would go a long way. account: DE2DQ82YBFqRLiDt2rBZSmW4rKEYnvCVV3 23:21 -DonationFN:#bitcoin-wizards- Due to popular demand, Freenode is in the process of upgrading its servers to handle more bandwidth. For those interested in helping, a small donation to Freenode's Dogecoin wallet would go a long way. Our goal is 10,000,000 Dogecoins in 1 week. Account: DE2DQ82YBFqRLiDt2rBZSmW4rKEYnvCVV3 23:22 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:25 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:41 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-98-209-139-209.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45 -!- DonationFN [~Airwrecka@187.253.149.74] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:46 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46 -!- tobyai [~toby@113x43x131x34.ap113.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:52 -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Sun Nov 23 00:00:59 2014