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04:21 < nnnm> I'm looking at blockchain.info block explorer now. There seem to be weird block distribution in the recent hour. Is that usual?
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04:23 < gmaxwell> (1) bc.i data is very frequently totally wrong and busted, (2) what do you think is weird? ... blocks gaps are exponential, they ofen look bursty.
04:24 < nnnm> I was sure that with Bitcoin's hashrate it is practically impossible to have 40-min gap
04:24 < gmaxwell> ;;tblb 2400
04:24 < gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 40 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 8 hours, 53 minutes, and 40 seconds
04:25 < gmaxwell> nnnm: try more like 2.6 times per day on average.
04:25 < nnnm> ok great thank you
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05:44 < kanzure> "There is a subdirectory named ".protagonist/tags", and a subdirectory ".protagonist/tags/t" for every existing tag, t. Any file which is tagged with t is given a unique identifier and a hard link in the directory t."
05:44 < kanzure> i dunno about this...
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06:45 < oakpacific> ;;tblb 3600
06:45 < gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour and 0 seconds to generate is 2 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 58 seconds
06:45 < oakpacific> ;;tblb 36000
06:45 < gribble> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
06:45 < oakpacific> ;;tblb 7200
06:45 < gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 3 years, 18 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 35 minutes, and 3 seconds
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08:23 < HM> hmm
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14:51 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/zooko/status/538392148127657984
14:51 < yoleaux> @petertoddbtc Challenge: key generation alg with entirely analog, homebuilt components: marbles, blocks, paper, rubber bands, etc. (@zooko, in reply to tw:538391798763118592)
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16:04 < gmaxwell> kanzure: if we want to be all secret decoder ring about it, here is what we do.
16:05 < kanzure> i don't know which it we're talking about, but i'm listening
16:05 < zooko> me neither and me too!
16:05 < gmaxwell> the tweet.
16:05 < kanzure> oh that's way less interesting than what i was hoping we were talking about
16:05 < kanzure> i am going to proceed with my prior assumptions then
16:06 < nsh> there was a paper that suggested you can do ECC in 400 bytes of RAM but it's in Springerjail
16:06 < gmaxwell> You generate your secret and a second random value.  By hand you sum your secret and the random value. Now take your secret+random and your random value to seperate computers and compute x*G  for each. then do the single point addition by hand to get your pubkey. :P
16:06 < nsh> (bytes of RAM being roughly commensurate to 'moving parts' in some mechanical system)
16:07 < zooko> gmaxwell: huh!
16:07 < gmaxwell> the first addition is plain integer addition mod order, which is trivial.  The point addition requires something like 8 field operations, so it's going to take you a while by hand. :P
16:07 < gmaxwell> but its completely reasonable and I assume you could do it in under an hour.
16:07  * nsh would like to see some abacus pros doing ECC
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16:08 < kanzure> nsh: you mean springerkink
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16:08  * nsh nods
16:08 < kanzure> why isn't the tor onion routing stuff a separate library? i don't see why it has to be tor-only code.
16:09 < nsh> .title http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/8747/how-to-build-an-electro-mechanical-public-key-cipher-machine
16:09 < yoleaux> historic - How to build an electro-mechanical public key cipher machine? - Cryptography Stack Exchange
16:09 < gmaxwell> kanzure: it's not usefully abstractable.
16:09 < kanzure> this stuff over here: https://gitweb.torproject.org/tor.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/src/or/circuitbuild.c
16:10 < sipa> 8 field operations? how fast does a human do a 512-bit by 256-bit division...?
16:10 < sipa> oh; field; if it's secp256k1 there's an easier way to do a modulus
16:10 < gmaxwell> yea.
16:11 < gmaxwell> well you can use repeated subtraction to do the reduction instead of division in any case.
16:11 < nsh> " I wonder if you could implement ECC in hardware? Have a flexible line defined by the equation to serve as a cam surface, then place a straightedge at points P and Q to find the intersecting point. It could be a great illustrative tool, but I doubt it could be made accurate enough to provide the security required. –  John Deters Jun 17 '13 at 16:50 "
16:11 < nsh> that's zooko-worthy crazebition :)
16:11 < zooko> Haha
16:11 < kanzure> cc kragenjaviersitaker
16:12 < gmaxwell> nsh: lol thats goofy, ECC over Fp^n is only conceptually related to ec over reals... in particular discrete log for ec on reals is not hard.
16:12 < nsh> right
16:12 < nsh> but perhaps you can shift the quantization?
16:13 < nsh> not sure that makes any sense
16:13 < sipa> nsh: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21907/what-does-the-curve-used-in-bitcoin-secp256k1-look-like
16:13 < gmaxwell> sipa: also you can get a pubkey in jacobian, and just have a computer reduce it to affine, as thats easy to check.
16:19 < zooko> So, FWIW, I was imagining a hash function instead of "public key". :-)
16:20 < sipa> nsh: heh, i wonder how much ram my implementation of secp256k1 uses at most (excluding the precomputed tables)
16:20 < gmaxwell> ah people have done sha256 by hand. (sha256^2 in fact)
16:20 < nsh> hmm
16:21 < nsh> is there a limit to processing/ram tradeoff particular to a given algorithm/calculation?
16:21 < nsh> ie, generally you can use less state at the expense of longer processing but only to a point
16:21 < nsh> how does that point depend on the intrinsics of the calculation?
16:22 < sipa> oh, for verification some factors are converted to wNAF form, which takes 4*129 bytes
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16:25 < gmaxwell> nsh: there really is no limit for the s*G task, though obviously you run out of fast ram at some point.  For the a*G + b*P multiexp, where only G is a constant base that you use over and over again and P you only use once, there is a small optimal amount of table to use.
16:25 < nsh> hmm
16:25 < gmaxwell> (the multiexp is what signature verification is doing; P is the pubkey)
16:26  * nsh nods
16:26 < gmaxwell> For the multiply with a generator case, it basically always gets faster with a bigger table if you're assuming memory bandwidth is infinite.
16:26 < sipa> latency you mean
16:27 < sipa> ah, for signing; never mind
16:27 < gmaxwell> on i4770r which has a 128mb L4 cache. I get the best performance for multiply with a constant point using a 70mbyte-ish table.
16:27 < nsh> if we're aiming for something like an abacus that can be used by a trained human with good manual dexterity at 'reasonable' speed
16:28 < nsh> there will be some optimum degree of mechanical/state complexity
16:28 < gmaxwell> well for e.g. generate a pubkey, if you're allowed a book you want the most precomputation possible.
16:29  * nsh nods
16:29 < gmaxwell> e.g. a book with 65536 entries lets you do the whole multiply yourself with only 16 point additions.
16:29  * nsh wonders about an ECC precomp slide-rule type device
16:29 < nsh> books are suboptimal for hand-based look-up, really
16:29 < gmaxwell> they can have tabs.
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16:30  * nsh nods
16:35 < zooko> sorry -- I'm playing Thunderstone in real life with my brother Nathan and my 10yo son. :-)
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16:40 < rusty> gmaxwell: is there a canonical writeup on UTXO commitments somewhere?  I can only find scattered references...
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16:59 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i have done the first 3 and the last 3 stages of sha256 by hand
16:59 < phantomcircuit> 0/10 would not recommend
17:00 < gmaxwell> rusty: no, sprawling discussions, maaku's work is probably the most sophicated.
17:00 < gmaxwell> I think maaku is not around today or I'd ping him for links.
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18:37 < zooko> phantomcircuit: haha
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18:52 < amiller> rusty, i have a paper and an ocaml library that makes authenticated data structure protocols for any data structure https://amiller.github.io/lambda-auth/
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18:57 < amiller> rusty, i have a forum post, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101734.0 etotheipi has one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88208.0 maaku has one https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.0 petertodd has an implementation too https://github.com/petertodd/python-merbinnertree
18:58 < amiller> i think all of those are the best references... not *too* scattered
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19:23 < rusty> amiller: thanks!  Reading now...
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