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ZZZzzz…] 08:33 -!- atgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:38 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:40 < andytoshi> o.O http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/04/boffins_we_factored_143_no_you_factored_56153/ original paper http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.6758 08:40 -!- NewLiberty__ [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:40 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 < andytoshi> ah, here we go: in the arxiv paper they exploit the fact that the factors differ at only two bits, which ofc will be very unlikely for any non-cherry-picked numbers 08:46 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@129.237.222.1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 < tdlfbx> Yep 08:47 < andytoshi> the math here is super straightforward, it is almost all elementary school arithmetic (well, in base 2), so it's worthwhile to read the paper 08:47 < tacotime> might be a good target for cherry picking if you plan to have a quantum computer before everyone else. 08:48 < andytoshi> a fun candidate for the underhanded crypto contest: try to generate an RSA modulus whose "random factors" differ in very few bits 08:49 -!- coiner [~linker@1.52.191.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@2601:9:4680:dd0:6961:8c49:da22:2a7e] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:51 -!- bit2017 [~linker@1.52.191.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:52 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@129.237.222.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54 < tdlfbx> Hmmm...bitcoin codes that e.g. steal funds would be a fun candidate for that contest... 08:55 < tdlfbx> Darn, submissions closed 2 days ago. 08:58 < nsh> andytoshi, i would be slow to scoff, progress is progress :) 08:58 < nsh> (not suggesting anyone's scoffing, but there's some temptation) 08:59 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.160.166.234] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- d4de [~d4de@197.160.166.234] has quit [Changing host] 08:59 -!- d4de [~d4de@unaffiliated/d4de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:00 < andytoshi> nsh: there is a temptation, after all with assumption of such small bit-distances you can solve these classically very quickly :) 09:00 < nsh> well, right 09:00 < andytoshi> they point out you can brute-force it in 2^16 time. but agreed, progress is progress, this is really neat 09:00 * nsh nods 09:03 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:04 -!- d4de [~d4de@unaffiliated/d4de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:04 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@179.43.133.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: damethos 09:13 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@37-251-2-42.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- askmike [~askmike@83.162.194.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: that popular press article is ... uhh. 09:21 < hearn> any headline with "boffins" in it gets immediate credibility points with me 09:21 < helo> lol 09:21 < helo> i hate that word so much 09:21 < hearn> you know what i hate? multi-dimensional state machines with a GUI and lots of things happening in parallel. 09:22 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:25 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:26 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:28 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:33 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@197.115.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:42 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-8-166-105-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:d107:f3cb:7850:4a7c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56 -!- Graftec [~Graftec@gateway/tor-sasl/graftec] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:56 < gmaxwell> sipa: After we get through the 0.10 RC stuff, if you'd like to rebase the schnorr I can start seriously reviewing it. 09:56 < sipa> ack 09:57 -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59 < gmaxwell> I wonder if we should implement the threshold ecdsa ... it needs a trusted dealer, so I lost interest in it. ... but indeed it's not worthless. 10:00 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05 < hearn> it'll probably end up being used for specialised tasks that aren't obvious to us at the moment 10:06 < hearn> they've implemented it for bitcoinj and told me they plan to open source the code 10:06 < hearn> so we could just wait and see if anyone does something interesting with it, and then do a native version in libsecp256k1 later 10:07 < amiller> gmaxwell, have you followed steven foldfeders progress on it at all 10:07 < amiller> goldfeder* 10:08 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: re the popular press article, yeah, wtf, i posted it before i read the paper and was expecting the paper to be way more opaque and impressive 10:09 < andytoshi> had they not said "the math is beyond us" i'd have read it first :/ 10:10 -!- jaekwon [~Adium@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:11 -!- jaekwon_ [~omni@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:15 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:27 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@179.43.133.226] has quit [Quit: Profreid] 10:30 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:31 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32 -!- davejh69__ [~davejh69@host86-156-141-169.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 -!- davejh69_ [~davejh69@host86-156-141-169.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:42 < amiller> is there a place that public discussion about sidechains happens, besides here? 10:42 < amiller> anyway, i have a sidechains question i can see resolved in one of two ways 10:43 < amiller> the question is, what is the recommended behavior on the sidechain in the unfortunate event that there's a revision attack on the sidechain that effectively steals some money from its bitcoin reserve 10:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-46-112-147-188.play-internet.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:44 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:44 < amiller> for example, suppose this is a 1:1 peg chain, and at the moment there are 100 sidecoins and 100 bitcoins in its reserve -- now an attacker somehow exfiltrates (just) 1 of the bitcoin reserves so there are 99 btc in reserve and 100 sidechain coins outstanding 10:45 < amiller> there are two easy policies i can imagine, A) is that sidechains are still redeemed for bitcoins from the reserve at 1:1 rate, except that if 99 of them are exchanged this way, there's someone left at the end who can't exchange his and is stuck with a sidecoin he can't redeem for btc 10:46 < amiller> B) is that the sidechain keeps track of its reserve funds, accounting for not just the 'valid-in-main-fork' withdrawal transactions, but also accounting for the bitcoin chain's view of history which may have processed double spends, and diminishes proportionally 10:47 < tromp_> the KISS principle says A 10:47 < amiller> now as long as there are no further double spends, there are 99 bitcoins in reserve and 100 sidecoins and you can exchange a sidecoin for 99 bitcents 10:47 < amiller> that's subjective these are both pretty simple 10:47 < amiller> let me discharge a few caveats i'm ancitipcaintg quickly before this conversation goes off the rails 10:48 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 < amiller> - i'm aware that an attacker doesn't just hve to do a *double spend* but could probably take all 100 bitcoin reserves at once, maybe there are ways around that, let me just assume that that kind of attack is somehow limited and it only happens for 1 coin 10:48 -!- gues [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-eohbufhvruzgkfty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:50 < amiller> maybe that was the only caveat i can't think of anything else 10:51 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@f052175067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:51 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:52 < amiller> the main simplicity advantage of option A is that the sidechain doesn't seem even to need to monitor the bitcoin fund account for this purpose 10:52 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:52 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:53 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57 -!- askmike [~askmike@ip241-209-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:00 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:02 < andytoshi> amiller: the concern there is it'd cause a "bank run", it is not a dramatic increase in complexity to do (B) 11:03 < andytoshi> amiller: basically once we have the primitives in place to do things like reorg proofs (which are needed for the peg anyway) it is easy to provide the sidechain with a "proof of theft" 11:05 < amiller> yeah that makes sense 11:05 < kanzure> so some proof-of-theft has to invalidate chains of transactions on the sidechain? 11:05 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05 < amiller> kanzure, if it's the same B) i'm talking about, it wouldn't invalidate anything 11:05 < andytoshi> kanzure: no, it would only change the peg exchange rate 11:05 < amiller> it would simply acknowledge that bitcoin thinks there are now 99 coins, yet there are 100 sidecoins 11:05 < amiller> therefore the new exchange rate is 0.99:1 11:06 < amiller> this ruleset is still 1:1 *as long as there are no huge history revisions* (or false spv proofs that go un-challenged) 11:07 < andytoshi> yup. fwiw there's a ton of design space for limiting this sort of attack (e.g. throttling the peg, increasing the conf times for large transfers, etc) 11:08 < amiller> yup, i meant to allude to those with my caveat :) 11:08 < andytoshi> yes, i caught that, thx for doing so :) 11:08 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:09 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 < andytoshi> so given the caveat (A) might not be as drastic ... after all, there is always some proportion of "lost coins" 11:10 < andytoshi> and if the theft can be throttled to always be less than that, and somehow everyone believes this, maybe there is no bank run 11:12 * zooko reads with interest 11:13 < amiller> perhaps it can be a little-bit-of-bank-run and a little-bit-of-dillution 11:14 < andytoshi> mm, gmaxwell had an idea along those lines of temporarily charging withdrawal fees so the "bank runners" end up making up the theft 11:14 < andytoshi> i.e. you are punished for being a panicked pete 11:15 < andytoshi> which would discourage an avalanche effect 11:15 < amiller> that's good 11:16 < gmaxwell> This is actually covered in the paper, I thought. Or am I in draft-space-zone. 11:17 < andytoshi> oh, it is indeed 11:22 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 < amiller> hrm, yeah you're right, section 4.2 in the paper covers roughly all of these 11:22 < amiller> i don't know why i didn't remember that, sorry! 11:22 < kanzure> huh, why don't non-cryptocurrency-related-bank-runs do withdrawal fees during bank runs? 11:22 < kanzure> *do increased withdrawal fees 11:22 < kanzure> panic penalties, i mean 11:22 -!- iddo [~idddo@csm.cs.technion.ac.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:22 < andytoshi> might be illegal 11:22 < kanzure> haha 11:22 < gmaxwell> thanks for finding the section number; didn't have the document on this system and on a slow link 11:23 -!- iddo [~idddo@csm.cs.technion.ac.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@46.19.137.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@46.19.137.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34 -!- Profreid_ [~Profreitt@a88-115-219-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 -!- Profreid_ [~Profreitt@a88-115-219-239.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@246-198-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- bramm [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 < bramm> Hey everybody 11:40 < amiller> hi bramm 11:40 < bramm> amiller! Just the person I have questions for 11:40 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:41 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:41 < bramm> amiller, I'm reading through your nonoutsorceable paper and am having trouble figuring out figure 2 (I have trouble with math-style notation) 11:42 < amiller> okay, i can probably hash it out in words here... 11:42 < bramm> There's something about a merkle tree. What do you put into the leaves of the merkle tree? 11:42 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:42 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 11:42 < amiller> the leaves of the merkle tree just contain random strings 11:43 < amiller> more accurately, the hash of a random string 11:44 < bramm> Okay, and then you come up with some nonce which picks some number of leaves and then you do... something with them 11:44 < amiller> right the nonce picks some number of leaves, and you *hash them all up* 11:44 < amiller> then you check to see if you win 11:44 < amiller> slightly more complicated than that - you hash up all the leaves/branches that get picked 11:45 < bramm> Okay that I follow, but how is this any different from an ordinary proof of work? Where does the nonoutsourceability come in? 11:46 < amiller> the main difference is that the *destination* of the reward is not committed to when you are doing the work, but instead is bound *after* you find a solution 11:47 < bramm> That I really don't follow 11:47 < amiller> in bitcoin you commit to a coinbase transaction before mining, each attempt only has a chance of winning a block that pays out to that transaction 11:47 < bramm> right 11:47 < amiller> this is why pools work, you can show that you're doing work that would pay out to the pool operator 11:47 < bramm> right 11:48 < amiller> (or, in p2pool, to the stack of other peers) 11:48 < amiller> okay so here, ... you don't do that 11:48 < bramm> I'm not following what your construction does. What you're saying sounds impossible to me. 11:48 < amiller> basically the structure of this puzzle is meant to guarantee that if you are doing the mining work, you have the private key 11:48 < amiller> when you are doing work for a pool, you don't have the pool operators private key 11:48 < amiller> you commit to paying out to a public key that *you* don't have the correpsonding key for, and that works fine 11:49 < amiller> here, you commit to the root of a merkle tree which acts as a finite-use-signature scheme, 11:49 < amiller> and to actually do the mining work you have to know (a significant portion of) the private key 11:50 < bramm> Okay, I'm familiar with merkle trees as signature schemes 11:50 < bramm> How is the destination selected/revealed at the end? 11:51 < amiller> it's selected by the miner who finds the solution, and it's shown to the world by creating a signed message with that merkle-tree-key 11:53 < bramm> So you're using the merkle tree twice, once to verify that your mining was successful, and once to reveal/sign the destination? 11:54 < bramm> What's wrong with using a more common signature scheme, where you hash a public key to see if your mining attempt was successful, and then sign it something with it? 11:54 < amiller> if you hash a public key, you might not know the corresponding private key 11:55 < bramm> Oh right, a pool might send you then private key 11:55 < amiller> that means you can do some work while provably waiving your ability to steer the reward at the end 11:55 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 -!- coryfields_ [~quassel@2001:4802:7800:1:6fc4:c486:ff20:1fa] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:58 < bramm> I'm trying to think how this would interact with something like cuckoo 11:58 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:58 < amiller> so sirer and eyal came up with this two-phase thing 11:59 < amiller> that combines an ordinary scratch-off puzzle with a nonoutsourceable puzzle 11:59 < amiller> and is sort of best of both 11:59 < bramm> Got a link? 11:59 < amiller> http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/18/how-to-disincentivize-large-bitcoin-mining-pools/ 11:59 -!- coryfields [~quassel@2001:4802:7800:1:6fc4:c486:ff20:1fa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 < amiller> the idea is that you just have two phases 11:59 < amiller> pick a nonce 11:59 < amiller> use the nonce to pick some leaves in this merkle tree as the first phase 12:00 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:00 < amiller> when you compute the hash, you don't immediately check to see if it's below a threshold, you use it as a nonce for a second phase 12:00 < amiller> e.g., as the macrononce for cuckoo cycle 12:01 < bramm> Couldn't the first phase be done by the pool and then the second phase farmed out to pool members? 12:01 < amiller> yes, but you have to do this roughly for *each attempt* 12:01 < amiller> so that would require a ton of bandwidth 12:01 < bramm> hmmm 12:02 < bramm> It would be nice to find something stronger than that 12:02 < amiller> i tried to write it out clearly so that it doesn't seem like this alternative bad scheme that i'm *not* describing, which is where you *first* try to grind out the first phase 12:02 -!- Aquent [~Aquent@gateway/tor-sasl/aquent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:02 < amiller> and *then*, having first found a phase1 solution, try to grind out a phase2 solution..... its' not that 12:02 < amiller> i don't think it's possible/necessary to find something stronger that, that's pretty goo 12:03 < bramm> I'll need to at least think about how to maximize the amount of bandwidth which needs to be used there 12:04 < amiller> okay so the way i described it is slightly simpler than what i described, and is *the maximized* setting 12:04 < amiller> slightly simpler than what *they* described i mean 12:04 < amiller> what they described there is a sort of difficulty balance parameter between phase 1 and phase 2 12:05 < amiller> that means, sometimes after having made half of an attempt, you can compare it against some weak threshold and figure out that that nonce definintely isn't a winner without having to do the phase 2 step 12:05 < bramm> I don't see any reason to put work difficulty in phase 1 12:05 < sipa> gmaxwell: rebased the schnorr implementation already 12:06 < amiller> bramm, the reason has to do with their motivation for this in the first place, 12:06 < amiller> which is to.... actually i kind of agree i don't know why you'd ever want to do that 12:06 < amiller> well okay the reason is 12:07 < amiller> suppose that one cuckoo attempt is still a lot faster than doing this signature thing 12:07 < bramm> ... which it isn't 12:07 < amiller> then you're not really getting the benefit of cuckoo making ram dominate the costs 12:07 < amiller> okay well 12:07 < amiller> keep in mind their expressed motivation was to make existing miner asics compatible with the new scheme 12:07 < amiller> so clearly making one hash attempt is a lot faster than anything else 12:08 < amiller> *if* you buy that motivation, 12:08 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 189 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 188 normal] 12:08 < amiller> then the solution is to make the hash attempt the phase1 and the nonoutsourceable signature thing the phase2 12:08 < bramm> Changing the proofs of work in existing Bitcoin is in the list of Things Which Aren't Going To Happen 12:08 < amiller> then to set this phase1 difficulty parameter so that you spend sufficient amount of your time doing the phase 1 work 12:09 < amiller> bramm, yeah yeah yeah that's why we're in -wizards :) 12:09 -!- Baz__ [~Baz@modemcable147.31-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09 < amiller> if i had to poll everyone's opinion about whether an idea was politically realizable or not i'd not have nearly as much fun doing research 12:10 < bramm> Also, if you're relying primarily and bandwidth costs killing miners, then a regular public/private key pair will have the same effect 12:10 < sipa> bramm: the purpose of this channel is pretty specifically not about Bitcoin itself 12:10 -!- Baz___ [~Baz@modemcable147.31-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:10 < amiller> bramm, maybe 12:10 < kanzure> i suspect that a good implementation would have a chance of adoption 12:10 < amiller> bramm, my first version of this just used arbitrary signatures like deterministic ecdsa or rsa 12:10 < sipa> doesn't mean that nothing here might end up in Bitcoin, or can't be intended as a "maybe one day Bitcoin should adopt this", but it's more about research/development than about actual production changes now 12:11 < amiller> bramm, but i wasn't able to prove anything because signatures don't generally guarantee that you can't make a defective private/public keypair that lets you do this kind of outsourcing thing somehow 12:12 < bramm> What do you mean by 'defective'? 12:12 < amiller> now that i use random oracles all my proofs work and no one really seems to feel excited enough to criticize it 12:12 < amiller> with a correctly generated public/private keypair, a signature is a proof of knowledge of the key 12:13 < amiller> however there is definition that guarantees that there is no alternate generation algorithm that gives you a private keypair that can only sign transactions that pay out to a pool 12:13 < gmaxwell> amiller: see the threshold ecdsa paper, it's possible to make delegatable signing with trusted setup... 12:14 < amiller> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~stevenag/bitcoin_threshold_signatures.pdf this one i think you mean, for the self-containedness of the log transcript here 12:15 < amiller> anyway that's not exactly practical for this... 12:16 < amiller> i don't think there's any actual problem with using ordinary asymmetric crypto and having each scratch off attempt involve a signature 12:16 < bramm> I have a wonderful horrible idea 12:16 < amiller> on the other hand, the merkle tree one might be faster, and that makes it easier to tip the work balance towards cuckoo or whatever 12:16 < amiller> which i think is good 12:17 < bramm> A hash-based digital signature scheme involves selectively revealing some information based on a hash 12:17 < amiller> also its post quantum 12:17 < gmaxwell> bramm: we could call it... a lamport signature. 12:18 -!- MoALTz [~no@user-46-112-147-188.play-internet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18 < bramm> cuckoo involves selectively revealing a selection of where some edges came from 12:19 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:19 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@246-198-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:19 < amiller> i guess you're suggesting intertwingling those two steps somehow... 12:19 < bramm> How about if we make each of the leaves of our tree responsible for some of the edges of the cuckoo? 12:20 < kanzure> for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html 12:20 < kanzure> cc andytoshi 12:20 < kanzure> and bram i guess. but bram knows remailers. 12:21 < amiller> bramm, it seems like it would be tedious to work out that there isn't any gaming here or something, but it seems like it would work.... what is the goal you're hoping to get out of this thouhg? 12:21 < bramm> remailers unfortunately don't matter. People don't use email any more. 12:21 < amiller> just fewer steps or something compared to doing one then the other/ 12:21 < bramm> amiller, trying to make it so that the amount of bandwidth which is necessary for outsourcing is nuts 12:22 < amiller> bandwidth is expensive and this requires a ton of it, i think you're doing a premature/unnecessary optimization 12:23 < amiller> bramm, i have a bunch of calculations about how this kind of pow scheme affects bandwidth and costs in the permacoin paper http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/permacoin.pdf 12:23 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@246-198-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 < kanzure> why remailers 1 http://web.archive.org/web/20120216180743/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem1.html 12:23 < kanzure> why remailers 2 http://web.archive.org/web/20130513043044/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem2.html 12:23 < amiller> upshot: roughly at any parameter setting, the cost of bandwidth is through the roof even when you assume you're using like, industrialbulk peering rates 12:24 < bramm> amiller, I don't think my suggestion of mixing has any real downside 12:24 < amiller> bramm, okay fair enough 12:24 -!- [Tristan] [tristan@213.163.67.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:25 < kanzure> "detecting double spending" http://web.archive.org/web/20021106004752/http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash1.html 12:25 -!- [Tristan] is now known as Guest38445 12:26 < amiller> anyway, one way or the other we seem to agree it's plausible to combine cuckoo and nonoutsourceable and thereby get a pow that's hopefully both anti-delegation and anti-asic... 12:26 < bramm> Yeah the main problem is the size of the signatures 12:26 < amiller> why? just because they eat into the blocksize? 12:27 < bramm> Yeah 12:27 < amiller> 40*32 bytes = >1k or so, i guess yeah 12:27 < kanzure> does anyone have a backup of rpow.net? 12:27 < amiller> (the 40 there comes from permacoin parameters which isn't necessarily a safe choice, could be worse) 12:28 < amiller> smaller signatures would be a good reason to want to use d-ecdsa vs hash-based-signature 12:28 < bramm> There are tricks for reducing the size of hash-based signatures which may be applicable 12:29 < amiller> yeah like winternitz compression 12:29 < amiller> i don't think nay of those buy you anything in this setting 12:29 < bramm> I'll have to think about it 12:29 < andytoshi> thx kanzure, unfortunately i don't have any spare cycles to think about high-latency mixers for the forseeable future 12:30 < amiller> actually here's the biggest problem i think with this cuckoo approach 12:30 < amiller> busting pools this way means we need to tolerate faster shares somehow 12:30 < amiller> and good parameters for cuckoo are already starting to require long attempts 12:31 < amiller> like, tens of seconds per attempt or something 12:31 < amiller> that definitely starts to interfere with the costly bandwidth argument 12:31 < bramm> Not sure what you mean. Cuckoo's long attempts are something which needs to be taken into consideration regardless. 12:31 < amiller> i guess that's true 12:31 < bramm> Long attempts are not in and of themselves disastrous because they can be done in parallel. Does create a minimum time between blocks, which might not be a bad thing. 12:32 < amiller> does it affect p2pool 12:32 < amiller> or any other way of lowering variance 12:32 < bramm> probably affects them a lot, I haven't thought it through yet 12:32 < bramm> And anyway, the idea is to fuck their shit up 12:32 < amiller> its one thing to compare it to the interblock time, but lower variance is achieved by having someone find a solution every few seconds or something 12:33 < amiller> yeah yeah but you have to provide low variance somehow, and the only way i know of how, even if pools are busted up, involves having frequent shares 12:33 < bramm> I'm liking this nonoutsourcing thing a lot more now that I know that it obliterates partials, that will really mess up pools something good. 12:34 < amiller> great :D 12:34 < amiller> although, i think pools aren't nearly as scary as hosted mining. 12:34 < bramm> There's another trick where you make there be two levels of mining success - one of which makes a new block and the other of which is a mining success. That can add a lot more rewards. 12:35 < amiller> bramm, yeah definitely 12:35 < amiller> bramm, but... actually i guess that doesn't hurt the progress free thing as much 12:35 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35 < amiller> like if it takes 10 seconds to make an attempt, and several people win "shares" at the same time, they can still get some reward for it maybe 12:36 < bramm> It seems there's a long list of things which can be done to fuck with miners/asics/hosting/pools. No single one of them really fixes the problem, but all of them help a bit. If you're starting from scratch you can pull out all the stops 12:36 < amiller> yeah 12:36 < bramm> There's another really neat thing which I'm keeping secret for now 12:36 < amiller> what is it 12:36 < bramm> It's a secret :-) 12:37 < amiller> you can tell us 12:37 < kanzure> the previous arguments about being ignorant in secret didn't work on you? 12:37 < amiller> why would you bother announcing a secret like that 12:37 < amiller> kinda rude! 12:37 < kanzure> yep 12:37 < bramm> I've sort of announced it already. I posted about how I've found a more practical proof of sequential work 12:37 < amiller> proof of sequential work? 12:38 < bramm> https://eprint.iacr.org/2011/553.pdf 12:38 < amiller> like this one ?http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~mohammad/files/papers/15%20TimeStamp.pdf 12:38 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:38 < amiller> yeah those links coincide :) 12:38 < bramm> Yes, like that one, I figured out an improvement on it and something neat which can be done with it 12:38 < amiller> okay well i'm interested in that 12:39 < amiller> maybe you'll tell me in confidence if it's that big of a trade secret but you don't want to make me feel bad and waste time wondering about what it might be 12:39 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:39 < bramm> I'm sorry I mentioned it really, I didn't mean to taunt 12:39 < bramm> Just saying there are lots of things which can be done 12:40 < amiller> do you have a good undersatnding of that paper? 12:40 < amiller> i can't intuitively imagine what the structure of that expander graph thing looks like 12:40 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:40 < bramm> amiller, reasonably good, I have a much better intuitive understanding of my improved construction 12:40 < amiller> i get the idea that it's building up a dag of some kind with long paths through it and pretty low width but i can't figure out what it looks like and i haven't implemented the stupid zig zag expander thing 12:40 < bramm> Like, I forgot their construction after figuring out a better one 12:40 < amiller> okay 12:40 < Eliel_> I wonder if pools are actually necessary... I mean, individual miners could easily do optimistic tit for tat between themselves. The valuable thing being lower difficulty shares for blocks that'd pay the cooperating miners if it was a real block. 12:40 < amiller> is the thing that can be done with it also part of the secret? 12:41 < amiller> i'm not going to stay up at night wondering about the improved construction 12:41 < bramm> Yes the thing which can be done with it is the real secret. Although I feel silly talking about it as a secret, it was the first thing I thought of when the structure of bitcoin was explained to me. 12:42 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:42 < amiller> okwell i look forward to hearing about it later, you can rest your conscience because i've sort of stopped caring as much already, maybe i just have better discipline than last time this happened :) 12:43 < bramm> not sure what you mean about last time this happened 12:44 < amiller> last time someone told me there was a secret and i was butthurt for a wihle because i really wanted to know what it was 12:45 < amiller> btw i know a secret that you would probably pay like 10btc to know so there 12:46 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:46 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46 -!- wyager [~wyager@nat-128-62-64-112.public.utexas.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:46 < bramm> I'm being fairly open about ideas that I have, because in many cases other people have already thought of them, and even if they haven't they can often improve on them. I'm just keeping something particularly clever and particularly well buttoned down so I'm not so worried about screwing it up as a secret for now. All will be revealed in time. 12:48 < bramm> The question of how to have separate, or somewhat separate, mining rewards and block minting when you have a long cycle time like cuckoo is an interesting one 12:48 < bramm> I'm all ears about peoples's suggestions about that one. I've enumerated different approaches and am not particularly sold on any of them. 12:49 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:50 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:50 -!- HM [~HM@curly.anarchicsheep.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:51 -!- woah [~woah@75-101-111-82.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:54 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55 < bramm> Like, what's the incentive for including mining rewards for others in a new block? Does it make getting a new block more likely? Does it give a greater reward to the block maker? 12:55 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-136-96.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:56 < phantomcircuit> bramm, if you dont reference the actual current tip you increase the risk of an orphan substantially 12:57 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 12:57 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 < bramm> phantomcircuit, Well yes all successful mining operations have to reference either the most recent of a fairly recent head 12:57 < bramm> Otherwise you aren't really doing anything useful 12:58 -!- orik [~orik@remote.snococpa.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:59 -!- Dizzle__ [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:01 < bramm> But there is a question of how long mining rewards which don't create a new block can sit around before being included and rewarded. 13:02 -!- Dizzle [~diesel@70.114.207.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:03 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:06 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@37-251-2-42.FTTH.ispfabriek.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:07 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-136-96.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10 < bramm> I'm surprised that this sort of stuff hasn't been written about extensively already. It seems like a good way to reduce mining pooling is to make rewards more distributed to begin with. 13:13 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13 < kanzure> was there a name for the sometimes-the-reward-is-10x proposal? 13:14 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-136-96.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15 < phantomcircuit> bramm, i dont follow 13:16 < phantomcircuit> mining rewards are when a new block is created 13:16 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:17 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162.245.22.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:19 < bramm> phantomcircuit, If you're making a new protocol from scratch you can make it so that near misses get credit 13:19 < bramm> kanzure, That's the opposite of what I'm suggesting 13:19 < Luke-Jr> bramm: if you're making a new protocol from scratch, then it's off-topic here; see ##altcoin-dev 13:19 < phantomcircuit> ah right 13:20 < kanzure> bramm: i didn't mean to claim it was your idea, or related, whoops 13:20 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, eh i think it's on topic (this stuff easily applies to sidechains) 13:20 < kanzure> keeping secrets is off-topic and hostile 13:21 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: not really if it's "from scratch" (and incompatible with bitcoin's existing financial commitments) 13:21 < bramm> Yeah side-chains can have whatever mining system they want 13:22 < Luke-Jr> I suppose demurrage could be done for this, but that'd be.. ugly 13:22 < bramm> demurrage? 13:23 < Luke-Jr> bramm: sidechains can't just create bitcoins from thin air 13:23 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:23 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 13:23 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:23 < bramm> sidechains can create sidechain coins all they want and then have some mechanism for deciding how bitcoins get assigned to them 13:25 -!- jtimon [~quassel@67.pool85-53-142.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 < bramm> And anyway, I am happy to discuss rejiggering mining rewards as a thing to be done to bitcoin, it's no more implausible than 90% of the other stuff we've been discussing 13:26 -!- c0rw|zZz_ is now known as c0rw1n 13:27 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, afaik a sidechain could be implemented using close to arbitrary rules as long as you can generate a compact spv proof which works with whatever the op code does 13:28 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:28 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: yeah, but that's just implementation - in the end, the bitcoins it has available are set 13:28 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28 -!- atgreen [~user@out-on-137.wireless.telus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:28 < bramm> phantomcircuit, doesn't even have to strongly justify itself to the main chain directly, just show that it's been consistent about a certain transaction for a while 13:29 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- zibbo [zibbo@84.20.131.204] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30 -!- Shiftos [~shiftos@gateway/tor-sasl/shiftos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 < bramm> so anyway, if one were to have a policy of rewarding partials directly in new blocks in bitcoin, how would you incentivize it? 13:33 < bramm> One thing to do is count partials as affecting height 13:33 < bramm> So if you don't reward any partials in your block, it will wind up an orphan 13:35 -!- skyraider [uid41097@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tdgpxnyjuywkbgmf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:36 < kanzure> they would just reward their own partials 13:36 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 -!- zibbo [zibbo@84.20.131.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:36 < bramm> The idea is that everybody is incented to reward all partials 13:36 < bramm> although obviously you're more incented to reward your own 13:37 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 < andytoshi> you should hoard partials, then when a block appears you can copy all the partials from it, add your hoarded ones, then publish a conflict 13:37 < andytoshi> since you will have strictly more partials, if these affect height then you win 13:37 -!- paulpaschos [~paul@24-212-224-219.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 < bramm> andytoshi, There can be a rule that partials must be rewarded in the same or next block 13:38 < gmaxwell> would be the same block in what andytoshi is saying. 13:39 -!- jb55 [~jb55@S0106f46d049a0b83.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:39 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE731F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:40 < bramm> Well, there is a potential problem that if partials are counted as part of height you can withhold them for a while and use that to reorg but hopefully by then something else already has greater depth and the height formula is such that it won't work any more 13:41 < bramm> The idea is that partials should be broadcast out to everyone in the same way that transactions are 13:41 < amiller> kanzure, i dunno, i think a phrase like "jackpot" or "high variance reward component" should evoke it pretty unambiguously 13:41 < amiller> "powerball-style bitcoin rewards" 13:42 < bramm> The ways in which partial inclusion can be rewarded are: direct reward amount, increased chances of success, and increased height 13:42 < bramm> I'm not even sure which one of them works best in principle 13:42 < andytoshi> "hopefully by then something else already has greater depth" i described an attack where you take the current greatest depth and create a reorg to a chain with your block with strictly greater depth 13:43 < bramm> andytoshi, I'm not sure what attack you're describing 13:43 < amiller> andytoshi, link? 13:43 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44 < andytoshi> amiller: bramm: my two-line comment above 13:44 < andytoshi> "you should hoard partials..." is the attack 13:44 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:44 < andytoshi> because now you've got a situation where "last to publish their block wins" 13:44 < amiller> oh okay i understand 13:44 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:45 < bramm> We can have a system where, for example, partials are 1/128 and blocks which don't give rewards to at least 128 partials are treated as orphan. Then everybody posts their partials as if they're transactions, and peers glom up as many partials as they can to meet the threshold 13:45 < andytoshi> then by withholding partials you make it less likely that other miners can get a block 13:45 < andytoshi> so everyone only has their own partials, and that's not progress free 13:46 < bramm> But by hoarding partials you won't get the kickbacks for them when others make new blocks, and they become worthless as soon as a new block is hit 13:47 -!- LarsLarsen [~lars@50.161.197.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:47 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-225-66.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:47 < bramm> The incentives are highly dependent on exact subtle details of the rules about what counts 13:47 < bramm> As are the potential attacks 13:48 -!- chris2000 [~chris2000@p54AE731F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 13:49 -!- LarsLarsen [~lars@50.161.197.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 < bramm> If you have less than 50% of the mining capacity then hoarding becomes a net loss 13:50 < bramm> At least in a simple threshold scheme 13:54 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 < bramm> Hey zooko 13:59 -!- atgreen [~user@out-on-137.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:02 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:03 -!- atgreen [~user@CPE602ad09277df-CM602ad09277dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:03 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:05 -!- Dizzle__ is now known as Dizzle 14:07 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.59.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:07 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.37.59.195] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:d107:f3cb:7850:4a7c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:09 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [] 14:13 -!- atgreen [~user@CPE602ad09277df-CM602ad09277dc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14 -!- paulpaschos [~paul@24-212-224-219.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 14:14 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@246-198-126-200.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:24 < zooko> Hiya bramm! 14:24 -!- gues [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-eohbufhvruzgkfty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26 < tromp_> hi, guys. what does the 2nd m in bramm stand for? 14:26 < helo> i hope it's muffins 14:26 < kanzure> probably stands for "someone else registered bram" 14:27 -!- gues___ [~gues@193.138.219.233] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:28 < tromp_> then i'd expect bramc. bramm smells of bram moolenaar (vim author) 14:29 < bramm> tromp_, It stands for 'I lost the bram login, along with all ops of any kind for #bittorrent disappearing, because I hadn't logged in in too long' 14:29 < bramm> oh, that didn't occur to me, I should use bramc 14:29 -!- bramm is now known as bramc 14:29 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:31 -!- digitalmagus [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:31 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:31 * zooko reads IRC backlog and laughs 14:32 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:36 < bramc> zooko, How is that funny? 14:36 < zooko> I definitely think you should pay amiller 10Kⓑ quick, before it is too late. 14:37 * nsh smiles 14:42 -!- webdeli [~projects@bit1642888.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:44 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:45 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:46 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Code needs some neatening before posting, but RSN. http://rustyrussell.github.io/pettycoin/2014/12/04/Pettycoin-Revisited-Part-II:-Proof-of-Propogation.html 19:30 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:30 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:33 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:37 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-69-254-45-177.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:40 -!- Starduster [~Guest3@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43 -!- Starduster [~Guest3@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:48 < nsh> rusty plays "simulator", earns SEVENTEEN cool-points|! 19:51 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:52 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:01 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:04 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:04 -!- orik [~orik@mobile-166-171-250-067.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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If they were it would seem reasonable to view the transaction part as the important/canonical bit 22:13 < OP_MUL> some people at one point made an alternate "normalised transaction hash" that did just that. it never made it into bitcoin core or anywhere else as far as I can see. 22:13 < OP_MUL> you can find a lot of talk about it here, and why it's not a solution to malleability as such. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3656 22:14 -!- adam3us [~Adium@50-0-135-98.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:14 < OP_MUL> (this was just before Mt Gox went away for good, part of the reason why it was made suddenly and then denied was that Mt Gox claimed transaction malleability was responsible for their losses) 22:15 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:15 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 22:16 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:16 < OP_MUL> (it might have been, the backstory was that their system would send out a transaction with their known hash, then look for the transaction in a block, if it wasn't there after a certain period they would resign a new transaction with different outputs as a replacement. if the initial TX was mutated they ended up paying some transactions many times under different TXID) 22:17 < adam3us> the mistake being to not double spend one or more of those inputs so that someone couldnt use it to withdraw multiple times 22:17 < OP_MUL> (I think the code was supposed to sign double spends so that this couldn't happen, but it didn't function properly or something, I can't quite remember. the end result was that they lost maybe a few BTC) 22:17 < midnightmagic> it likely was not responsible for most of the thefts (presuming they were thefts) 22:20 < OP_MUL> oh no, but the whole situation explains nicely about normalised transaction IDs and why they probably aren't a good idea. 22:20 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:24 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:28 -!- paveljanik [~Pavel@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:30 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:31 -!- OP_MUL is now known as op_null 22:32 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:50 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:51 -!- epscy [~epscy@176.126.241.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:54 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:00 -!- OneFixt_ [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:02 < midnightmagic> for sure 23:03 -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:03 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:04 < bramc> You know, the important thing is which utxo(s) the payment came out of. Those are what needs to be kept consistent, and should be plenty for the receiving side to verify that they got the payment 23:06 < op_null> BIP62 means it's very hard for people on the network to mutate transactions, but you can't stop people making the transaction from creating mutants. 23:06 < bramc> And yes, it seems hardly anyone believes mtgox's story 23:06 -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:07 < op_null> bramc: that's because there's nothing to support 700k BTC being mistakenly sent like that. 23:07 < bramc> op_null, but any resulting transaction will involve the same utxos. At least I hope it well! 23:07 < bramc> will not well 23:08 < op_null> the maker of a transaction will always be able to change and grid the UTXO hash though, signature or no signature. just rolling the change address output would do the trick. 23:09 -!- woah [~woah@199-241-202-232.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:09 < nsh> grid? 23:09 < op_null> grind 23:10 < op_null> somebody had a lottery at one point which used the TXID as a random oracle, hence that comment. 23:13 < op_null> and somebody was trying to convince me earlier that a mod to ECDSA would stop people from being able to roll nonces, well, obviously that can't happen without exposing the private key :P 23:13 -!- epscy [~epscy@176.126.241.239] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:17 < gmaxwell> op_null: it wasn't applicable there, but technically one can convert ecdsa into a one time signature by requring the key use only a single nonce which is pre-commited to. Though if someone wants a unique signature there are probably better constructions (esp since even with making it one time, it's still not unique). 23:18 < nsh> hmm 23:24 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 23:24 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:25 -!- maaku is now known as Guest84438 23:29 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:32 < bramc> Oh, are output utxos dependent on the exact encoding of a transaction? If so, that causes issues even for very simple things like atomic transfers 23:34 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:34 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:37 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:37 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@g225119162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:37 -!- wallet42 is now known as Guest20302 23:37 -!- Guest20302 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Killed (hitchcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 23:37 -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 23:42 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@197.115.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:48 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2604:5500:13:5fc:4de7:32fc:5042:472e] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:48 -!- zibbo [~zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:51 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:53 < op_null> bramc: yes. when you reference a previous transaction as a vin, you reference the TXID and the index down the TXID of the output you wish to spend. 23:54 < op_null> bramc: that's one of the reasons spending unconfirmed outputs is a bad idea, you risk making large chains of transactions that could be invalidated by an alternate inclusion in a block. 23:55 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@99-48-178-219.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 23:55 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:55 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55 -!- zibbo [~zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55 < bramc> op_null, a send-back transaction signed by the counterparty is part of the atomic transactions protocol, at least until the opcode to make ways of unlocking utxos be timelocked is added 23:56 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 23:56 -!- zibbo [zibbo@zibbo.oldskool.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:57 < bramc> So that's a case where not being able to reference an output before it's happened is a real problem. 23:59 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-111.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards