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00:56 < op_null> Taek: I'm not sure that's what users expect from such a thing. I can image the node churn rate with such a thing being quite high.
01:00 < op_null> guess to me it feels like a really hacked together system with low real world utility. as far as storage and retention goes a centralised service is better on almost every level.
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01:03 < op_null> if your stored files are at all critical you're going to want to keep a good copy of them for Justin Case. might as well just throw an encrypted copy on a few cloud storage hosts and call it a day, the end result is the same if not better.
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02:20 < BlueMatt> anyone have some good examples off-hand that seem like great changes to bitcoin break things in very subtle ways?
02:21 < BlueMatt> preferably things related to consensus mechanism
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02:31 < BlueMatt> or in overt ways...eg the "discourage newly-seen forks"
02:34 < op_null> the instant difficulty retargeting lots of altcoins has is a nice one. people got sick of difficulty changes getting pushed into weeks, so they made all sorts of systems where the retargeting happens every block or evey few blocks.
02:36 < op_null> while not subtle as a cryptographic thing, it caused all sorts of issues and ruins the expectation that somebody can't isolate you and feed you low level blocks.
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02:42  * BlueMatt goes to read the ethereum blog to find some good ones...quite a lot here
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02:47 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'd caution that you should abstract enough to not trigger anyone's defences.
02:47 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: maybe use the response on CLTV on bitcoin-development recently.
02:47 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I'm trying to pick things that were never implemented :)
02:47 < op_null> oh.
02:48 < gmaxwell> Petertodd and I so lovingly crafted that design to _not_ be a fork magnet, and a presumably smart earnest person responded on the list with a bunch of "oh why not do X, Y, Z" ... which were mostly things that would turn it into a triggerable hardfork.
02:48 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, I have a separate section of the talk on forking stuff
02:48 < BlueMatt> but thats a good example for that part, thanks
02:48 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: oh I see.
02:49  * BlueMatt had a reasonable conversation with someone a few weeks ago (the guy who was on the ml saying "we need to hardfork regularly") challenging that declaration
02:49 < BlueMatt> only to find out after 20 minutes that he wasnt aware of the definition of soft/hard fork
02:49 < BlueMatt> these things need explained :)
02:49 < gmaxwell> ouch, yea, seen that happen before.
02:52 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: an older often one is "why not just refuse to reorg at 6 blocks deep". You get lovely effects like attackers who just intentionally mine / continue two forks at depth 6 and then concurrently announce them to the whole network and the network is forever partitioned.
02:52 < BlueMatt> yea, I was gonna do the recent one where you discourage newly-seen forks
02:52 < BlueMatt> pretty much the same thing, in result at least
02:52 < gmaxwell> Now you might say, "well thats really hard to compute surely you don't need to worry about it" ... but apparently reorgs of that depth were enough of a concern that you wanted to "fix" them.
02:53 < BlueMatt> heh
02:53 < gmaxwell> Plus new nodes entering the network would automatically be inconsistent with existing ones if there were a long fork.
02:53 < BlueMatt> yea
02:54 < gmaxwell> I guess the notion of tradeoffs is important to express. Some things are possible, but seldom for free. Not sure what would make the best example of that.
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05:24 < op_null> sort of cute. vertcoin for ages contended that their "ASIC resistant" Scrypt-N (just scrypt, but the memory size scales up over time to a number of gigabytes) would work. now that there's ASIC miners for it, they're switching to yet another weird KDF I've never heard of.
05:29 < op_null> I was looking forward to seeing how they would deal with making 8GB of scratch just to verify a single block.
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06:13 < instagibbs> gmaxwell: just ask your friends which fork is right /s
06:15 < instagibbs> that's literally the answer people are giving in ostensibly serious corners
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06:16 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: sure and then just ask them what the ledger is too... and you can forget this whole blockchain thing. easy peasy.
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06:17 < gmaxwell> or hey, we can forget about the digital signatures too, since no one ever gets screwed over by someone they consider a friend or business partner.
06:17 < instagibbs> is there a good rundown on plausible spectrum of centralized/decentralized services in the future?
06:19 < instagibbs> i think that might be helpful for illustration, and aside from e-cash/Bitcoin, I personally don't know a lot of in-between
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08:15 < azariah4_> instagibbs: bitgo is perhaps a good example of something inbetween - their centralized solution helps you create 3 keys, and it also stores 1 of them.
08:15 < azariah4_> assuming it works correctly, it does not depend on complete centralized trust, as they can't steal your funds with a single key
08:16 < op_null> the user has two parts of a 2 of 3 though, so they can bypass any protection the third has. a two of two like greenaddress.it is much better and still requires no trust.
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10:59 < kanzure> "Evolution of probabilistic consensus in digital organisms" http://www.cse.msu.edu/thinktank/consensus-TR.pdf
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19:08 < bramc> I think I have roshambo figured out now. It can be done with a far, far weaker system than bitcoin has, although committing to a value by the length of the preimage is a key trick, and having malleable transactions where things refer to older ones including the signature is a real problem. You can do a lot more by setting up chains of transactions in advance if you don't have those problems.
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19:27 < AdrianG> so how is this chat different from -dev?
19:27 < gmaxwell> AdrianG: see the topic
19:28 < AdrianG> i just did actually, which is why i asked.
19:28 < AdrianG> so long-term, moonshot idea discussions only?
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19:37 < bramc> moonshot ideas and high level discussions
19:38 < bramc> And higher level engineering
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20:59 < phantomcircuit> nice bc.i changed their production code w/o updating github first
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21:08 < bramc> Real men hot patch their web sites by sshing in and using a text editor.
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21:25 < rusty> It strikes me that soft-forks would be easier if evaluated OP_NOP<n> immediately made the script evaluate to true.
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21:30 < rusty> And a new scripting language could be introduced as long as it always wrapped scripts in OP_TRUE OP_NOTIF ... OP_ENDIF.  If we dropped the silly DER encoding from signatures, we'd gain more than the 3 bytes lost anyway.
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22:16 < bramc> what is the DER encoding?
22:17 < lechuga_> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0062.mediawiki#DER_encoding
22:18 < rusty> bramc: a standard way of encoding datastructures.  Of course, it's supposed to be canonical, and duh, it isn't.
22:18 < gmaxwell> rusty: OP_NOP<n> returning true would be pretty devastating in a script sig. :)
22:18 < rusty> bramc: really, all we want is 32 bytes for s and 32 bytes for r..
22:18 < rusty> gmaxwell: Oh yeah :)
22:19  * rusty quietly notes that pettycoin got this right, at least.
22:20 < bramc> How is DER not canonical?
22:21 < rusty> bramc: well, it's supposed to be, but seems like libopenssl will actually accept non-canonical encodings.
22:22 < rusty> bramc: using an encoding at all was a weird thing to do, given it wastes 6-7 bytes IIRC.
22:22 < bramc> rusty, My conclusion after going over everything is that trying to make things canonical while generally a good idea isn't something you want to really rely on and that the real problem is that utxos are referenced by transaction + signature instead of just transaction
22:23 < bramc> Using just the transaction would allow you to set up chains of things in advance and actually rely on them.
22:23 < gmaxwell> Issues with non-canonical forms extend far past just narrow malleability concerns.
22:23 < rusty> bramc: canonical txids are really a nice feature, I think they're worth some sweat for.
22:23 < gmaxwell> (and bitcoin.. there have been many cryptographic systems broken because something should have been canonical but it wasn't)
22:25 < rusty> gmaxwell: yes, and the specifiers of DER were aware too.  Maybe the openssl implementers weren't...
22:25 < gmaxwell> Seperating the signature from the transaction ID is a favorite point of roconnor, or more general seperating out all the witness parts that show validity from the rest.
22:26 < gmaxwell> rusty: it's not just openssl thats broken there. (I know openssl is a popular punching bag these days, and its well deserved, but it's by far not alone in this case)
22:28 < gmaxwell> There are some reasons you can argue against leaving the signature out of the id, but they're pretty tortured. If that were done the p2p protocol would need a second ID for message relaying though.
22:29 < bramc> The effects on the p2p protocol wouldn't be too bad, peers would need to know to send signatures with certain things
22:29 < gmaxwell> E.g. consider a transaction X which signs for 2 of 3 keys a,b,c.  A signatures with a,b or b,c or a,c are all equally valid. But they may have significant semantic and legal differences to the users of the system. Depending on how throughly the seperation is, the system may give no strong record of what signature was used, which may be undesirable.  As I said, tortured. :)
22:30 < gmaxwell> bramc: It's not just "need to know to send", it's things like;  if you get tx A with a bad signature, you still need to request A again, but you don't want another copy with the same bad signature.
22:31 < gmaxwell> So this could be resolved using a distinct ID for transport (e.g. over the whole thing) or transporting signatures and data seperately (2x inv data overhead), or presumably some other ways.. it's a bit of complexity at least.
22:31 < bramc> And I'm not arguing against canonicalism, just that it's very hard to enforce canonicalism, and it isn't something you want to rely on when you don't have to. I can tell you from experience that people reeeeeally like accepting malformed versions of things if they have an 'obvious' interpretation.
22:32 < bramc> gmaxwell, I worked out how to do roshambo with a minimal set of primitives, it's waaaay harder if you have to know your signatures before you can make dependent transactions
22:33 < bramc> If you have that feature then all you need is the ability to make something depend on a hash preimage of a certain length, and you encode your move in the length.
22:33 < bramc> Same as in the oakland lottery paper. I forget who explained that one to me, but the length encoding trick is a great idea.
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22:35 < bramc> Maybe I should do a blog post on this. It's a fun puzzle and construction.
22:35 < gmaxwell> Yes, people love accepting malformed things, and it's absolute doom in a consensus cryptosystem, since _all_ visible consensus behavior must be implemented exactly the same.. "uh, this is crap but I'll interpret it as something" generally means making all kind of twisty implementation details normative. Vs a strict check where you must implement exactly the same well specified strict check, and then you have a bunch of freedom in ...
22:36 < gmaxwell> ... your implementation, since it just has to be identical over inputs that past the strict check.
22:41 < bramc> Yes. The one thing you can count on is that everything agrees what digital signatures apply to, because that's definitional in getting the primitive right.
22:41 < bramc> Or at least you hope you can count on that. If someone implements that wrong, there is no hope for them.
22:42 < bramc> by 'fun puzzle and construction' I was referring to precommitting to roshambo, not canonicalizing encodings. Enforcing canonical encodings is universally horrible.
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