--- Day changed Tue Dec 16 2014
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01:05  * andy-logbot is logging
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03:57 < GAit> i did some updated stats on p2sh transactions and I thought people over here may be interested, http://i.imgur.com/DZx8o87.png
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11:55 < kanzure> swhack found https://gist.github.com/anonymous/105cd61893f8d3bfc324
11:55 < kanzure> for some reason people are confused and think bittorrent is a storage protocol instead of a transmission protocol
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11:57 < zooko> kanzure: :-(
11:57 < zooko> Oh, hey, that's by kragen.
11:57 < zooko> We've been talking about that on #tahoe-lafs.
11:57 < kanzure> yes, which is why i'm doubly upset
11:58 < kanzure> i also don't know why he refuses to show up in here (i've prodded him)
11:58 < kanzure> (i just have high expectations of him i guess)
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15:18 < nsh> .title http://continuations.com/post/105272022635/bitcoin-clarifying-the-foundational-innovation-of
15:18 < yoleaux> Continuations : Bitcoin: Clarifying the Foundational Innovation of...
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15:21 < nsh> there should be a special term for people who categorize and think they've explicated
15:22 < nsh> and it should be synonymous with dead
15:26 < kanzure> "In contrast to most recent work in peer-to-peer software, our design is based on mathematical proofs of security rather than hand-waving."
15:26 < kanzure> http://szabo.best.vwh.net/securetitle.html
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15:32 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: you may find this thread interesting: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=893898.0 "A covert-channel-free black-box signer without ZNPs"
15:32 < gmaxwell> Sergio gives a 4 move protocol that prevents an evil hardware wallet from exfultrating secrets compatible with the existing network, and requiring nothing fancy.
15:32 < gmaxwell> Annoyingly it's four moves, which sucks for a wallet in a safe.
15:34 < gmaxwell> I give a two move protocol that makes the sidechannel size have exponential cost... which I think might be worth doing only if you absolutely wouldn't do the 4 move version... since elsewhere I've shown that a single bit channel is more than enough to leak whatever given enough signatures.
15:35 < gmaxwell> Can anyone link me to the state of the art in probablistic payments that work in the current network?  I have a scheme I think is new which is very nice.
15:35 < gmaxwell> (but maybe I just reinvented something)
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18:21 < bramc> There's something I'm not understanding about the time warp attack: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=43692.msg521772#msg521772
18:22 < moa> a jump to the left?
18:22 < bramc> How does the attacker get their total work to be higher? It seems like it should be easy for them to drive up their block numbers, but the total work should always trail, unless there's something I'm not understanding about the total work calculation
18:22 < moa> or the skip to the right?
18:22 < bramc> moa, not sure what you mean
18:22 < moa> srry couldn't resist
18:23 < bramc> I don't get it
18:23 < moa> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBHONx9vTtI
18:23 < gwillen> bramc: the Time Warp song from Rocky Horror
18:24 < bramc> I've never actually seen rocky horror
18:25 < moa> me either weirdly but that song gets rolled out at weddings, etc
18:26 < bramc> I've heard the refrain from it somewhere before
18:27 < bramc> But seriously, there's something about how the difficulty per period is calculated and added up which I'm not getting
18:30 < bramc> For any given period there's a certain number which you need to find a hash less than it to succeed. For the purposes of work difficulty the 'obvious' ways to calculate that are either the reciprocal of what the work had to be or what the work actually was. Either one should be very effective at keeping an attacker from ever winning on work put in, but that post seems to say that an attacker can get ahead on the actual amount of work difficulty done
18:33 < moa> it is a 51% attack
18:34 < jgarzik> bramc, yes, it requires sufficient mining power to execute
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18:35 < phantomcircuit> bramc, the more annoying attack is to generate a stream of diff=1 blocks with timestamps manipulated such that diff remains 1 forever
18:35 < phantomcircuit> this isn't very effective with headers first though
18:35 < bramc> Oh, that makes it a lot less interesting
18:36 < moa> it was done on namecoin before merge-mining was implemented ... not sure if it was ever done before that on bitcoin (artforz would know)
18:36 < bramc> phantomcircuit, Not sure what you mean. If others have the majority of mining power and they put in the max timestamp allowed they'll eventually win
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18:37 < phantomcircuit> bramc, yes but not before i've forced you to process a bunch of nonsense
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18:37 < bramc> define 'bunch of nonsense'
18:37 < phantomcircuit> bramc, 1MB blocks which are a fork
18:38 < phantomcircuit> it's a dos attack
18:38 < andytoshi> fluffypony: do you have a link to that shadowcash paper that isn't behind cloudflare? (alternately, i can just use a non-tor browser, if you've checked it out and it seems like it's worth the trouble)
18:38 < bramc> If somebody's mining they can make 1MB blocks, how is that a fork?
18:39 < bramc> What is everybody's issue with cloudflare?
18:39 < andytoshi> bramc: it blocks pages, you get this "please type the captcha" page with a captcha that won't load unless you tell your requestpolicy that $random_mitm'd_site can connect to google
18:41 < phantomcircuit> bramc, i can mine 1MB blocks from the genesis block upto the first checkpoint and an infinte number of forks of that
18:41 < phantomcircuit> then make you validate those blocks
18:41 < phantomcircuit> which aren't in the mainchain
18:41 < phantomcircuit> and which cost me almost nothing
18:41 < moa> i noticed the mytrezor webwallet loads a JS from cloudflare
18:41 < bramc> It doesn't check the work weight before validating the signatures?
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18:44 < moa> srr grau
18:44 < phantomcircuit> bramc, the difficulty is correct
18:44 < phantomcircuit> anyways this is basically completely irrelevant with headers first
18:44 < bramc> It sounds like a good idea to design the protocol so that it's possible to send just the hashes so a counterparty can validate those before requesting whole messages
18:44 < phantomcircuit> and is really just mildly annoying
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18:45 < bramc> Does 'headers first' mean that the receiving side can check work difficulty before requesting all the messages?
18:45 < phantomcircuit> bramc, it means you can check the headers before checking all the transactions
18:45 < phantomcircuit> and it makes it easier to get them from multiple sources potentially in duplicate
18:45 < bramc> It's probably reasonable for the receiving side to also have a sanity check on the overall height they'll accept based on the current time
18:46 < bramc> phantomcircuit, Thanks, I understand that, goes on my list of gotchas to avoid
18:46 < kanzure> (that doesn't work for regtest)
18:46 < kanzure> (not that regtest matters)
18:55 < bramc> What is regtest?
18:57 < phantomcircuit> bramc, testnet but with even more relaxed rules
18:57 < bramc> Ah
18:58 < phantomcircuit> setgenerate true basically finds a block instantly
18:58 < phantomcircuit> iirc it's always with diff=1
18:58 < phantomcircuit> or maybe it's less than 1
18:58 < phantomcircuit> cant remember
19:00 < tacotime> less than 1
19:00 < tacotime> powlimit = 0x207fffff
19:00 < isis> andytoshi: the shadowcash paper isn't really worth reading, in my opinion, but it's here if you want it: https://github.com/isislovecruft/library/tree/master/cryptography%20%26%20mathematics/cryptocurrencies
19:01 < tacotime> the shadowcash paper is really just a rerelease of the cryptonote whitepaper in a different font
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19:03 < isis> precisely, and i have the same complaints against its probablistic, dwindling anonymity sets as i do with monero
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19:13 < duuude> hi.  I have a question on the original C++ code written by Satoshi.  is there a copy somewhere?
19:14 < duuude> also, does it have a mix of styles/endianness etc that strongly suggests it was not one person but multiple sharing a pseudonym?
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19:19 < tacotime> i don't think anyone really believes one person wrote it
19:20 < tacotime> different components are in different coding styles, and the build number upon first release was astronomical
19:20 < duuude> tacotime - I am interested in this  (I dont care about identities or anything)
19:20 < rusty> duuude: google lead me to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68121.0 pretty fast...
19:21 < tacotime> isis: anonymity sets in monero shouldn't be dwindling as long as there's reasonable traffic on the network, and are constantly feeding into each other
19:21 < gmaxwell> bramc: yea, the reason we haven't bothered fixing timewarp is that it requires a hashpower majority, so it's relatively low priority (if someone started doing it, it could likely just be fixed hot)
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19:22 < duuude> tacotime - do you have presonal experience with this?  I can code in C (and C++) and would like to know exactly what you mean by "different components are in different coding styles", i.e. specific examples (such as two guesses I listed, like endinanness, for loops, cast styles, etc).
19:22 < duuude> I want to form my own opinion.  I've also coded in a mix of styles - for example if i completely refactor and rework working example code I get from somewhere.  I might keep its style even though it's not how I would have written it (while changing everything including what it does.)
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19:23 < duuude> I mean if I google a code snippet.
19:23 < tacotime> duuude: i'm with conformal, so i know some of the people personally who did the refactor into Golang. it was their opinion, and they've been coding much longer than i have. i can't give you specific examples because i wasn't involved in most of the original composition of btcd.
19:23 < duuude> As a result of working off of a google phrase in the end my code can be a mix.
19:24 < duuude> tacotime, do you know someone you can refer to me to who would give me the most 'obvious' example (like cast style, or whatever)
19:24 < tacotime> you can talk to davec on the conformal irc server if you're curious for more info
19:24 < duuude> yes, thanks.
19:24 < duuude> I'll try to connect there as well, I think this client supports it if not I might get disconnected from here. thanks
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19:25 < duuude> can you give me the server details for conformal network?
19:25 < tacotime> (i guess refactor isn't even the right work, reimplementation rather)
19:26 < duuude> yes, I got that
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19:26 < andytoshi> duuude: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/bitcoin-0.1.0.tgz is an old source release, i don't think it's the earliest but it's back there
19:26 < duuude> it doesn't really matter, as long as they looked at hte original code and formed an opinion.  I'm sure they recall some things I can judge.
19:26 < duuude> andytoshi thanks
19:28 < gmaxwell> duuude: bitcoin core was very clearly written by a single person; it has all the (positive and negative) hallmarks of a single person project.   ... though I dunno that origin stuff is very interesting; unlikely other systems Bitcoin's reality is just it itself, you don't have to trust the creator of the system.
19:28 < gmaxwell> So while that stuff might be historically interesting, it's ultimately trivial that doesn't have a lot of relevance today.
19:29 < duuude> gmaxwell, sorry, are you saying you clearly disagree with the third-hand source? (tacotime's summary of davec's opinion)
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19:29 < duuude> i.e. whereas davec (according to tacotime) says it was clearly written by multiple people (stylistically), you say having looked at the code that it's clearly a single-person project and consistent with that? (to you)?
19:30 < gmaxwell> duuude: I have no clue why davec would have been looking at a many years old copy of Bitcoin rather than current versions on the network.
19:30 < duuude> oh
19:31 < gmaxwell> And current versions were very much written by multiple people, most of the original code has been replaced.
19:31 < kanzure> andytoshi: i think that was originally a .rar file, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin-satoshi/bitcoin-0.1.0.rar
19:31 < duuude> okay, so what version did you base your judgment on?
19:31 < duuude> yes, I have that rar open
19:31 < kanzure> why
19:31 < gmaxwell> The original software.
19:31 < andytoshi> kanzure: maybe, tbh i don't remember where i got that. i had thought, from sourceforge
19:31 < gmaxwell> But as I said, I don't think it's very interesting.
19:32 < pigeons> not relevant here at least
19:33 < gmaxwell> It's tabloid and history books stuff, it doesn't have any bearing on the system itself today... and certantly not tomorrow.
19:33 < duuude> gmaxwell - do you know what specific "mix of styles" people were referring to?
19:34 < gmaxwell> duuude: nope, no clue.
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19:34 < duuude> gmaxwell - so, I'm interested because I am arguing for a 'lone genius' possibility on hacked-together projects (such as one of my own).  I'd like to rebut someone saying the original bitcoin wasn't written by 1 person.
19:34 < kanzure> oh, wrong channel for that
19:34 < duuude> gmaxwell, I agree with you based on this rar file that it has all the hallmarks of being written by one person
19:34 < duuude> Oh, I know
19:34 < duuude> I didn't mean here.
19:34 < andytoshi> i think #bitcoin-satoshispeculation might still be open..
19:34 < tacotime> hah
19:35 < duuude> no, I didn' tmean I wanted to do this here.
19:35 < andytoshi> if not ask in #bitcoin pls, it's OT there as well but at least it's not logged :)
19:35 < kanzure> OT has too many ambiguous conflicting meanings
19:35 < kanzure> you should just say off-topic
19:35 < duuude> kanzure - what else does it mean on IRC?
19:35 < gmaxwell> well only one meaning has production deployment. :P
19:35 < tacotime> oh yeah, market.cpp. almost forgot about that.
19:35 < duuude> (or in bitcoin or in programming)
19:36 < kanzure> gmaxwell: "original topic"
19:36 < kanzure> the point is, get out
19:36 < duuude> market.cpp is hilarious.  Look:
19:36 < duuude> /// later figure out how these are persisted
19:36 < duuude> map<uint256, CProduct> mapMyProducts;
19:36 < kanzure> that is not hilarious
19:36 < duuude> "later figure out how these are persisted". No, it is. :)
19:36 < kanzure> that's a totally normal comment to make
19:36 < BlueMatt> duuude: seriously, off-topic
19:36 < BlueMatt> just stop
19:36 < tacotime> yeah, anyway.
19:37 < gmaxwell> duuude: that just means "how to persist these"
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19:37 < duuude> I've been asked to stop discussing this.  thanks for the help guys.
19:37 < kanzure> you've been asked to leave, not to stop discussing this
19:37 < kanzure> or, if not to leave, then to take the discussion to #bitcoin
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20:32 < adam3us> gavin on scalability live stream https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K5AQdbo0nY
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20:32 < adam3us> (well answering questions from audience)
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20:34 < kanzure> .title
20:34 < yoleaux> SF Bitcoin Meetup @ Geekdom December 16, 2014 [Live] - YouTube
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20:51 < adam3us> hmm no barrier to entry… try a few $100m for 150PH + data center + power + lead time?
20:51 < gmaxwell> yea, kinda funny in that he's pointed out before that he hasn't touched mining himself for ~years~.
20:52 < gmaxwell> :)
20:52 < gmaxwell> In the abstract it's a reasonable point; ... and there is only so much you can cover in front of a big room.
20:53 < gmaxwell> (there are a bunch of things he's saying that he has much more complex thoughts about. He does a good GWB impression of sounding simple about complex subjects that he really does understand. :) )
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20:55 < adam3us> definitely.does a good job on saying things in an accessible way
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21:01 < adam3us> i suppose it depends on how determined the cartel is to stamp out competition.  i think generally things get ugly and unpredictable if bitcoin ended up there so its hard to argue for or against.  certainly from other spheres you see companies willing to lose money short-term to kill a new entrant with intent to undercut them.
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21:08 < Emcy> missed gavin speaking i assume
21:09 < adam3us> you can watch it as a regular youtube vid now. (watching the beginning that i missed)
21:09 < Emcy> some sort of bitcoin "compliance" panel on now......uuuuuuggggghhhhh
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21:09 < adam3us> yeah so skip forward 1/2hr or so
21:09 < Emcy> ok
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21:10 < Emcy> gavin speaks quite well publicly for laymen considering he is supposed to be a pure tech guy
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21:11 < Emcy> i usually enjoy his talks
21:11 < adam3us> i guess 1h10 mark.
21:11 < Emcy> welp he has a beard now
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21:12 < Emcy> haha reminds me of evil spock :>
21:12 < op_mul> it's unfortunate that all of the youtube suggestions on this video seem to be block chain related technobabble.
21:13 < Emcy> ehhhhhhhhh he still seems to think scaling blocksize "8x will take no effort". Yeah maybe not for hosted nodes
21:14 < op_mul> 8x would be the limit for me I suspect.
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21:20 < Emcy> i wonder if the foundation could make a grant for bitcoins confs to buy a decent mic/audio path for the speakers :(
21:23 < BlueMatt> heh
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21:35 < fluffypony> andytoshi: I'll lower Cloudflare's aggression so you can view it
21:35 < fluffypony> ok done
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21:37 < Emcy> aggression?
21:37 < Emcy> "only a cached copy for you, fucko"
21:37 < fluffypony> lol
21:37 < kanzure> accurate
21:38 < fluffypony> no, they have a whole section for how aggressive you want the security to be
21:38 < fluffypony> like when it pops up that captcha-based challenge
21:38 < fluffypony> or has a JS interstitial snippet that checks to see if you're a real browser or a bot
21:38 < fluffypony> (which is actually really nice for preventing automated fuzzing tools)
21:39 < bramc> gmaxwell, I don't follow how timewarp is any more powerful than a 51% attacker just making their own fork and orphaning everything by everybody else
21:39 < fluffypony> because a timewarp attack doesn't require 51%
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21:40 < bramc> fluffypony, That's different from what people said earlier
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21:41 < fluffypony> in the classic timewarp attack it does require 51%
21:42 < fluffypony> what the timewarp attack did was exploit an off-by-one bug in Bitcoin to make the damage worse than just a fork
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21:43 < bramc> Oh, what's the off by one?
21:43 < fluffypony> there's stuff on btct about it, lemme see if I can find something relevant
21:44 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=43692.msg521772#msg521772
21:44 < fluffypony> https://litecoin.info/Time_warp_attack
21:45 < bramc> Oh, now I understand
21:45 < bramc> That's a really bad off by one bug
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21:48 < fanquake> heh I was just reading the same timewarp post. Although came from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
21:49 < bramc> fanquake, That's where I came across it as well
21:50 < Emcy> eh this block pre-announce thing gavin is talkiing about seems like it would only be good for the big miners
21:50 < bramc> I didn't realize on first reading that it's based off an outright bug
21:50 < Emcy> as in if everyone used it the netowrk would be flooded with crap
21:51 < bramc> Emcy, What block pre-announce thing?
21:51 < Emcy> he sounds like he has totally given up on node software running on consumer hardware
21:51 < Emcy> bramc miners pre announcing theri block template i guess
21:52 < bramc> What is the point of that?
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21:53 < Emcy> help block racing amongst the big boys
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21:53 < Emcy> something about zero conf assurance too
21:54 < bramc> Oh, yeah, it can do that. It would be better if everything was a canonically designed sorted list and peers could communicate diffs
21:55 < bramc> using merkle tree diffs
21:56 < bramc> That potentially creates a few round trips but dramatically reduces the amount of data which needs to be sent out for a new block to be accepted
21:56 < Emcy> um the only canonical source of txn ordering is a block
21:57 < bramc> You could have a convention that if peers sort the transactions in their block then they're more likely to win a race. Would do a good job of getting peers to actually do that.
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22:07 < dgenr8> i don't really get the pre-announce idea. It's the kind of thing that is regularly lambasted right here, as a useless security half-measure
22:09 < bramc> If the thing I just said was implemented properly it would be a simple network bandwidth optimization and latency improvement
22:09 < dgenr8> agreed on that, but not security
22:10 < dgenr8> as gavin alluded to
22:10 < lechuga_> propagating lower difficulty share-blocks seems like it just makes more potential for congestion
22:10 < bramc> Not really security, but having races have clearer winners would be a good thing
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22:17 < gmaxwell> I mean, it's not really worse than "erase everything" but it doesn't require quite an extreme outcome, which is in one sense worse.
22:18 < gmaxwell> Also, really I wish no one had ever uttered the words "51% attack" because thats incredibly confusing. It makes 51% sound like a magic number, it ignores how long the attack goes on, and what precisely the attack is doing.
22:21 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: precisely
22:22 < bramc> Given that peers are already fairly synced at all times, a peer could tell another one about a block which was reasonably canonically made by giving it the headers and saying which transactions were newly added and which ones were skipped, that would be a nice bandwidth optimization and not add any round trips at all
22:22 < op_mul> it's also not ideal from the perspective of that people think a "51%" attack is.. a thing. they utter it without following up with that they are using their majority to do. it's not like the network would explode if you hit that magic number.
22:22 < fluffypony> op_mul: it's also not like a pool that's at 25% can't perform the exact same attack
22:22 < op_mul> are they withholding blocks? trying to stop other people getting rewards? double spending?
22:23 < op_mul> fluffypony: that too.
22:23 < gmaxwell> In the abstract it's possible for a majority hashpower to just replace the chain, which is pretty awful, but a simple 1% majority would take 20 years to outpace the network. Not really an interesting attack. Inflating the currency some by speeding up subsidy is more interesting, though probaly too easily addressed by magical-layer-8-processes to actually be interesting.
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22:25 < bramc> gmaxwell, A 1% majority couldn't redo history, but they could easily hijack new work and in two weeks get the overall work rate to be lower so they could keep everything for themselves
22:25 < bramc> Also could start jacking up transaction fees heavily
22:26 < gmaxwell> well technically 1% can't reasonably do it, because of timestamp constraint the attack has to fork the chain about two weeks back to start with.
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22:26 < gmaxwell> But sure in that space.  But it results in a moronic pattern of timestamps, e.g. jumping back two weeks every so many blocks to keep the median window from rolling forward.
22:28 < bramc> Not following you. A mining pool with 1% majority could just start orphaning everybody else, and after 50 or so blocks they'd be way ahead
22:28 < gmaxwell> bramc: if they're an actual majority (well 1% is not stable enough a majority, too much variance) then they can happily do the transaction fee imposing and such, no time warp anything required. All the timewarp adds to that is cranking out the subsidy faster.
22:28 < gmaxwell> bramc: thought you were speaking specifically to timewarp.
22:28 < bramc> No, I was talking in general. Timewarp is only annoying because of that stupid off by 1 bug
22:29 < bramc> Not sure what would be a proper countermeasure for that but I have a feeling that the cure would be worse than the disease.
22:30 < gmaxwell> For the off by one? you can just have a second median window to constrain timestamps, then you can't do the back and forth jumping. It's not hard to craft a rule thats never been violated on the network as is, but prevents use of it.  Proving that it has no other negative consequences is harder.
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22:43 < bramc> Dumb question: When comparing two different blocks, is their height determined by the difficulty threshold for them or the difficulty threshold they actually managed to overcome?
22:44 < bramc> I think it's the first one, although the second one would have some advantages, like doing tiebreaks
22:46 < gmaxwell> the second leads to immediate enormous attacks.
22:46 < op_mul> their achieved difficulty would be very very nasty to use. if it was the case, you could grind at block 1, suddenly get lucky and overwrite the entire chain.
22:46 < gmaxwell> (it's the first, because that is what _actually_ is the statistical metric for work in the block)
22:47 < gmaxwell> what op_mul said. Also even if it were just tiebreaks, you can see you get a lucky tiebreaker and then keep your block secret, comfortable that you'll win if you announce it later.
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22:47 < gmaxwell> (this creates an increased expected return for large miners)
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22:49 < op_mul> back in august the best preimage was 00000000000000000000b7de9e5c19e52be073156924b7cf235efb27ae8a202a for a "achieved difficulty" of 391,895,084,984,304. not enough to ripe out the whoel chain I don't think.
22:50 < lechuga_> lol
22:50 < op_mul> actually at the time it would have been. from gmaxwell's post the total work at the time was 79.97 bits and the block was 80.4.
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22:52 < lechuga_> i noticed that subtlty in the protocol but didnt spend anytime thinking about why but now it's obvious
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22:58 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: The difference between committed target and apparent target are covered in varrious pre-bitcoin papers on hashcash at least.
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23:04 < lechuga_> bitcoin 2.0 is particularly amusing when you consider core is @ 0.10
23:04 < lechuga_> too bad april 1st is kinda far
23:05 < op_mul> pull request. bump version to 3.0.
23:06 < lechuga_> :)
23:06 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin 11.  (this one goes to 11; ... gavin would approve)
23:07 < lechuga_> lol
23:07 < Luke-Jr> lechuga_: software != protocol
23:07 < Luke-Jr> I think we're at the point where it's okay to call the consensus protocol "1.0"
23:07 < op_mul>  // make sure the version number has sufficient entropy
23:07 < lechuga_> lol
23:07 < Luke-Jr> it's not ideal, but it is pretty stable
23:08 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: I expect we'll here some amount of outrage when the version after 0.9 is 0.10 (we heard a little previously)
23:08 < op_mul> gmaxwell: should make it tonal and really piss people off.
23:08 < Luke-Jr> op_mul: too late for that
23:08 < Luke-Jr> could do hex though
23:09 < gmaxwell> #if 0  ver=rand(); /*turned out to not have enough entropy*/ #elif 0 ver=arcfour(); /*oops*/ #else ver=getrandom...
23:09 < Luke-Jr> (unless we adopt a new version system altogether - Eligius has traditionally used tonal primes for versions)
23:09 < op_mul> v0.A.0
23:09 < op_mul> ^ I'd ACK that
23:09 < Luke-Jr> op_mul: also note we've had 0.x.10 before IIRC
23:10 < Luke-Jr> s/IIRC/definitely/
23:10 < lechuga_> version numbers should be unique/uniform but deterministic imho
23:10 < Luke-Jr> seriously, though, 0.10.0 is good
23:11 < lechuga_> seems fine
23:11 < gmaxwell> surprisingly users don't like referring to software by cryptographic hash.
23:12 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: that's probably the biggest annoyance with git ..
23:12 < Luke-Jr> enough that people invented git describe
23:12 < op_mul> gmaxwell: maybe we should hash the software, add it to namecoin, and then use a centralised website to resolve the version names to the hashes.
23:12 < Luke-Jr> …
23:12 < gmaxwell> I should start doing that.  "I has having an issue with foxtrot zero alpha bravo two seven nine charlie bravo..."
23:13 < Luke-Jr> heh
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23:13 < lechuga_> ha
23:13 < Luke-Jr> when I try to spell things out with words, I tend to end up with a random assortment of unusual words
23:14 < gmaxwell> There is a standard. It works better than adhoc words.
23:14 < lechuga_> 'aardvark, baloney, op_code, tango, juliet'
23:14 < gmaxwell> (NATO phonetic alphabet)
23:14 < gmaxwell> You can memorize it in a couple hours across a few days and you'll remember it forever.
23:15 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I know there is, but I've never taken the time to learn it
23:15 < gmaxwell> I just made a little python quiz tool that showed me a letter and then I hit a key and it showed the right answer.
23:15 < gwillen> "M as in Mancy!"
23:15 < moa> Mike
23:16 < gwillen> I know, it's from Archer
23:16  * gwillen learned the NATO alphabet more or less by accident
23:16 < gmaxwell> op_mul: re software in namecoin, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/update_checking_requirements
23:16 < moa> base58 takes on a ne life
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23:18 < op_mul> gmaxwell: *nods* my comment was a dig at onename.io, the namecoin resolver which encourages users to trust namecoin data blindly. NACK anti jamming sounds like a difficult problem to solve.
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23:20 < bramc> Huh, apparently 'whisky tango foxtrot' really is NATO
23:20 < moa> roger
23:20 < gmaxwell> yea, really the only tools I know of are thresholds and having each message commit to all the messages they know about.
23:20 < gmaxwell> moa: no, romeo
23:20 < moa> over
23:20 < gmaxwell> oscar
23:21 < moa> lol
23:21 < gmaxwell> lima
23:21 < gwillen> c.c
23:21 < moa> gtfu
23:21 < gmaxwell> golf
23:21 < gmaxwell> heh
23:21 < gmaxwell> "He's gone NATO"...  Yea, so the words are perhaps not optimal, but when the far end knows them it works so much better.
23:21 < gwillen> crucially, the words are designed to be easily distinguishable from one another
23:21 < moa> yep, it's hard to shake once you start using it
23:22 < gwillen> especially with the suggested pronunciations though few people use them
23:22 < gwillen> (e.g. papa is supposed to be "pa-PA".)
23:22 < gmaxwell> gwillen: I imagine that we could probably brute force a superior list, but you can't replace people knowing it.
23:22 < gwillen> right
23:22 < bramc> Oddities: Apparently 9 is pronounced 'niner' and 3 is pronounced 'tree', which is really odd because my kids pronounce it 'free'
23:22 < gwillen> and confusability with the standard list is almost as bad as confusability within your list
23:22 < gwillen> especially to start with
23:22 < op_mul> gwillen: same problem with BIP39.
23:23 < moa> bravi india papa
23:23 < gmaxwell> I'm a little out of practice and will stutter some while using it... but even still: my bank largely serves military people, and any time I need to relay data to them I switch to nato and they're super fluent and it goes very smoothly.
23:23 < gwillen> op_mul: oh, I have an alternative I strongly prefer to BIP39-style wordlists, although I never knew BIP39 was a thing
23:24 < gmaxwell> If only others didn't know it was a thing. :)
23:24 < op_mul> I enjoyed haiku encoded IPv6 addresses a lot. not practical, but fun. http://gabrielmartin.net/projects/hipku/
23:24 < rusty> (See, it's an irregular verb.  "I am being witty" / "You are wandering off topic" / "He is unwelcome on this channel" :)
23:24 < gwillen> op_mul: I prefer to divide the bits to be memorized into chunks of equal length, then represent each chunk by a user-selected word whose (last n bits of your favorite hash) are that value
23:24 < gwillen> op_mul: my current implementation uses (MD5, 12) for the parameters and seems to work well
23:25 < op_mul> gwillen: please use a proper KDF.
23:25 < gwillen> huh?
23:25 < op_mul> (it's a joke)
23:25 < gwillen> oh, bahahahaha
23:26 < gwillen> anyway I prefer my scheme to fixed-wordlist schemes, because you can always reconstruct the bits from the words without knowing the wordlist
23:26 < gwillen> and you can use whatever wordlist you like in constructing the phrase
23:26 < gmaxwell> sort of an odd constraint on the wordlist, distinct partial hash values.  obviously you need a semantic dicationary and a dynamic programming solver to find the solution set of words that are most sensible. :P
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23:26 < bramc> gwillen, But you're using md5, which is horribly insecure. Better to use 5-ripemd-160
23:26 < gwillen> gmaxwell: the point is you don't need a fixed wordlist; you can use any wordlist you want and any choice you want for each word (from the set that matches)
23:27 < gmaxwell> I made some tools a while back that build word lists for visual distinctiveness, I had a constrant that each three letter prefix had to be distinct; so you could resolve things based just on the first letters.
23:27  * gwillen nods
23:27 < gwillen> a disadvantage of my scheme is that it's easy to accidentally (as the user) choose a confusable word
23:27 < gwillen> and of course whatever word you confuse it with will not have the same hash
23:27 < gmaxwell> gwillen: you stil have state too, in that you must rember the hash function and number of bits.
23:27 < gwillen> unless you use some canonicalization scheme first (like stemming)
23:28 < gwillen> well, that's pretty minimal state; I would generally expect that if this were to be standardized, you'd at least fix the hash function, and probably fix the bits too
23:28 < gwillen> there are only so many common english words, so there are very few reasonable values for the bits parameter
23:28 < moa> sit in seat XXF on airplanes and see if the hostess refers to you as 'Fox' or 'Foxtrot'
23:28 < gmaxwell> it would still probably be best to have a standard dictionary, to allow recovery if some words are corrupted.
23:29 < gwillen> yeah, that would be ideal
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23:29 < gwillen> in fact, ideally you would be able to use autocomplete on your passphrase
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23:29 < gwillen> so as not to have to type all the goddamn words out completely
23:29 < gmaxwell> that was my three character prefix uniqueness constraint.
23:30 < gwillen> obviously you would not want to use this scheme with a learning autocomplete
23:30 < gmaxwell> it actually was pretty burdensome.
23:30 < gwillen> huh, *nods*
23:30 < gwillen> how big a dictionary were you picking?
23:30 < gmaxwell> lol. "autocomplete leaked my password"
23:30 < gwillen> I really like 12 bits
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23:30 < op_mul> I don't think passwords really matter.
23:31 < gmaxwell> gwillen: trying to go for 9 bits (pgp wordlist length), with a simple english dictionary input. (in order to reduce confronting non-native speakers with uncommon words)
23:31  * gwillen nods
23:31 < gwillen> looks like BIP39 used 11
23:31 < gwillen> and first-four-letters-unique
23:31 < op_mul> for web based services rate limiting makes even weak passwords fine, if somebody is on my box enough to get an encrypted wallet then they can just snarf the keys from memory next time they are there.
23:31 < gmaxwell> doesn't really use any, the spec is mostly a crappy brainwallet in disguise.
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23:31 < gmaxwell> The disguise thinly slathered on because of the huge pushback.
23:32 < op_mul> I'm more upset BIP38 seems to have become a "standard"
23:32 < gwillen> well, it eliminates the first most serious problem with brainwallets, by not allowing the user to pick an arbitrary password and turn it into a key
23:32 < gmaxwell> gwillen: not so.
23:33 < gwillen> oh? Using a fixed wordlist appears to eliminate that possibility.
23:33 < gmaxwell> gwillen: no, the decoder is basically a brainwallet decoder, nothing is required to use the 'recommended' encoding procedure.
23:34 < gwillen> oh, I see that you are correct
23:34 < gmaxwell> with a loltastic 2048 rounds of PBKDF2.
23:35 < gmaxwell> So there was an original scheme based on the electrum stuff that had an encode and decode. The trezor guys wanted to make it a brainwallet. There was a heated argument. They eventually compromised with the upfront encoding scheme which I think they and many people do not use. The electrum author asked his name to be removed from the document, just the usual fun in bitcoin land.
23:36 < gmaxwell> We have no process to control for inadvisable specifications, if their authors are strong willed and not convincable.
23:38 < bramc> What's the current lightweight wallet protocol? Is that electrum?
23:38 < op_mul> no.
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23:39 < op_mul> electrum is a sort of similar system, but uses servers run by the community rater than other nodes in the network for SPV.
23:39 < fluffypony> SPV is the current protocol
23:39 < op_mul> same privacy model. you connect to random people and they get to know everything about you and your wallet. Electrum has SSL though, so it's probably more private from passive observation.
23:40 < gmaxwell> bramc: "bitcoin".. the bitcoin protocol includes a lightweight mode.   though electrum is another one. (it grew out of a more centeralized original design. the author is super responsive to security criticism and has done a lot to make it similar to SPV wallets in security, in some ways a bit worse, some ways a bit better)
23:40 < gmaxwell> We know tools to make them better yet, but those aren't implemented so far.
23:42 < moa> has there been a documented instance of a malicious electrum server yet?
23:43 < op_mul> define malicious.
23:43 < gmaxwell> how would you even know if it was malicious? malicious could be coorelating all your addresses and selling the info to the highest bidder years down the road.
23:43 < moa> not doing what is supposed to i guess
23:43 < gmaxwell> unfortunately some kinds of misbehavior leave no evidence.
23:43 < moa> yeah that's why i said 'documented'
23:44 < gmaxwell> There have been broken ones before. e.g. that were forked off the blockchain and would cause you to miss transactions.
23:44 < op_mul> electrum servers and nodes acting for SPV clients can both lie as much as they want by omission. I doubt anybody would notice that happening though.
23:44 -!- toffoo [~tof@unaffiliated/toffoo] has quit []
23:44 < gmaxwell> Fortunately the security model was upgraded to spv like long ago to one where most of the obvious profitable forms of evil are precluded.
23:45 < gmaxwell> The remaining ones are mostly DOS attacks and privacy related.
23:45 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f055164214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:45 < moa> so doing what it says on the tin for now
23:45 < op_mul> electrums privacy risk is a bit higher because they use a small set of servers which are randomly used. the more you run the client, the higher chance that every node will know everything about your wallet.
23:46 < op_mul> while that's true for bitcoin SPV too, there's a much larger set (thousands versus like, 10)
23:46 < gmaxwell> it's unfortunate there too, because it would be easy to strenghten that with PIR. Though it doesn't appear that anyone is working on that.
23:46 < gmaxwell> op_mul: well also bitcoin spv clients usually use the bloom which has slightly better privacy (or at least can if used better, though it commonly isn't)
23:47 < gmaxwell> (all in all the bloom filtering may just have too high a snake oil factor and is actually net privacy negative)
23:47 < op_mul> did you read the paper about that? it concluded that even with stupidly high FP rates the privacy of bloom filters was zero.
23:48 < gmaxwell> I did, hm, didn't walk away with the conclusion that it was zero. only _MOSTLY_ zero. :P
23:48 < op_mul> bitcoinj filters for example aren't deterministic, so you can intersect two filters from one peer to remove the junk. and even without that trick, the number of matches that could be excluded was very high.
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23:49 < gmaxwell> There is a big difference between _MOSTLY_ zero and all zero. Mostly zero is slighly non-zero.
23:50 < op_mul> I don't feel it matters that much. even a fuzzy privacy leak can be made concrete with other information sources. given how unprivate the rest of bitcoin transactions are, another source isn't hard to find.
23:51 < gmaxwell> Yea, I'm mostly being silly, don't mind me. I know it's awful.
23:51 < gmaxwell> This is also why I really was not happy about the bloom bait stuff on 'stealth' addresses.
23:52 < gmaxwell> Esp since a normal desktop cpu can ECDH at many times the speed of the network anyways.
23:52 < gmaxwell> (about 10,000x the speed of the network, in fact)
23:53 < op_mul> I'm not sure stealth addresses are a good thing. I can see them being tacked onto a chronically address reusing wallet and that being called a solution. I know change addresses still leak information, I've done a lot of work with that fact, but it's a lot harder than straight up googling.
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23:55 < op_mul> one of the main problems are just merging, and the fact that humans like round numbers. for the most part that seems to play out quite well for the privacy destroying side of things.
23:56 < gmaxwell> It's a bandaid, no doubt.
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23:56 < op_mul> in a lot of ways it might have been better to keep bitcoin only visible down to four places for the time being, leaving the rest for later use. bunches of satoshi outputs are very identifying.
23:56 < gmaxwell> But is it more snake oil than bandaid? I don't ... think.. so? then again expirence shows users are just going to give their scanning keys to some server who will then log them.
23:57 < gmaxwell> op_mul: it was originally only exposed to two places in wxbitcoin
23:57 < op_mul> yes, I think Luke-Jr changed that.
23:57 < gmaxwell> but well, lots of fud about zomg what happens if bitcoin goes up in value. really most things use round amounts ... except miners.
23:58 < gmaxwell> I had a little campaign to try to get pools to use round payout amounts in 2011, no luck.
23:58 < op_mul> people also use values mapped to USD, which is why a lot of things are paid istupid granularity.
23:59 < gmaxwell> well you can do that at finite precision, e.g. bitpay uses four places after the dot.
23:59 < op_mul> I wasn't aware of that.