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07:39 < amiller> petertodd, it seems like you're trying to do formal reasoning with proof-of-publication and anti-replay-signatures as primitives but there's not a clear enough definition of either yet to really call it a theorem
07:40 < amiller> one thing is that you're willing to say that Proof-of-publication can implement anti-replay-signatures but you're not mentinoing the efficiency loss
07:41 < amiller> you're saying it counts as an "anti-replay-signature" protocol even if you have to rescan through every transaction in the blockchain to check it
07:43 < amiller> the other thing is you aren't saying anything about efficiency
07:43 < amiller> especially whether it's part of "proof of publication" to assume that everyone making proofs and checking proofs is *storing* or can readily access arbitrary pieces of data that have been previously published
07:48 < amiller> i think that for a proof-of-publication protocol that satisfies your definition, the audience has to be determined at the outset and everyone involved has to do retain all data forever
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08:00 < petertodd> amiller: re: efficiency, I've pointed out elsewhere how rescan's aren't a given; appropriate indexes lead to obvious O(n log n) non-publication proofs
08:00 < petertodd> amiller: hell, with UTXO commitments you get an easy ~O(log n) way of doing it
08:01 < petertodd> (and I only say ~ because that's trusting miners fairly heavily)
08:02 < amiller> yeah but that's like
08:03 < amiller> well basically it undoes the entire assumptions about embedded consensus, that you can do this more cheaply than accessing the shared index (utxo index) for every message you want signed inthe system
08:03 < petertodd> huh?
08:04 < petertodd> embedded consensus just assumes we have some consensus system and we can do proof-of-publication (or really even just anti-replay) with it
08:04 < petertodd> e.g. colored coins *is* embedded consensus
08:04 < amiller> right, so, you can achieve 'proof of publication' while implying horrible efficiency for the resulting anti-replay-signature
08:04 < petertodd> well, yeah...
08:05 < petertodd> that's the whole point of something like treechains: O(n log n) non-publication proofs
08:06 < petertodd> you're log n is the path from top chain to specific part in the tree, the other n is just # of block headers needed to prove a non-spend
08:06 < petertodd> call it O(m log n) to be more specific
08:08 < amiller> okay well nevermind then i'm back to not understanding the significance of this philosophical difference at all then :)
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08:09 < amiller> actually no i still want to dig apart at your definition
08:09 < petertodd> I understood it as an emphasis on trust vs. verification - if you're heavy on anti-replay you're more willing to accept third party trusting solutions
08:09 < amiller> in the anti-replay spend definition, you need to check that there's no previous message m' under the same pubkey p
08:10 < petertodd> e.g. how merge-mining is willing to accept some very dodgy economic assumptions to reduce that O(m log n) non-publication proof cost down to O(log n)
08:10 < amiller> that doesn't typecheck against proof-of-non-publication
08:10 < petertodd> yup
08:10 < amiller> in proof of non-publication you assert for a specific message m that m has not previously been published
08:10 < petertodd> ah, wait, no you see in the anti-replay spend definition you *trust* that *someone else* did that for you - for them the cost is still O(n log n) and probably worse
08:10 < amiller> so your reduction doesn't work because you can have a proof-of-publication system that can't support anti-replay-sig at all
08:11 < petertodd> nah, thing is you can arrange for that message to also have a signature, and prevent others from spamming invalid signatures
08:11 < amiller> within your current definition?
08:11 < petertodd> or equally, with an index mapping pubkeys to messages with valid signatures
08:12 < amiller> so it's not just about publication but also signature validation
08:12 < petertodd> amiller: there *isn't* a specific definition of exactly what we're saying when we say proof-of-publication; statements about it's efficiency are always going to be in the context of some actual implementation
08:13 < amiller> well look you tried in one letter to give it a definition and in another letter to establish some kind of reduction theorem
08:13 < petertodd> for starters, notice how in a treechains system w/o sig validation by anyone but end users it's O(m log n) with a k being the blocksize
08:13 < petertodd> yeah, you're way overthinkign that
08:13 < amiller> and this is supposed to be helpful for disentangling/comparing some different approaches re: tree chains, side chains, embedded consensus, etc
08:14 < petertodd> yeah, but all this stuff is so tied to actual implementations that getting abstract about it is silly
08:14 < petertodd> I mean, hell, I'm talking about taking advantage of UTXO indexes in my last post - that's got fuck all to do with abstract theory
08:15 < petertodd> equally, the other half of all this is economic considerations, even political considerations, which aren't exactly well captured by any of this
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08:17 < amiller> yeah but it's so hard to actually evaluate all these actual implementations and concrete proposals that some abstract theory might help, so i guess my point is to encourage you for trying
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08:19 < petertodd> all this stuff boils down to some pretty basic questions about who you are trusting and at what cost; I don't see the difficulty in comparing this stuff at all
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08:23 < amiller> "I don't see the difficulty in comparing this stuff at all" <-- maybe i'll get there someday
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13:43 < Aquent> do we have any estimate of when sidechains might be impelemented?
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13:55 < tacotime> two weeks
13:56 < tacotime> ™
13:57 < tacotime> the last read from the core devs was that it's still in its infancy unless you want to make a federated peg sidechain, which is more or less centralized
13:57 < tacotime> the git for that is referenced in the appendix of that paper
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14:07 < Aquent> that seems what reddit is looking to do
14:07 < Aquent> centrelized sidechain reddit notes
14:08 < op_mul> I don't think even reddit knows what reddit is looking to do.
14:08 < Aquent> and, u saying, they dont have to wait?
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14:26 < gmaxwell> Today's concetrated laughter dose: http://blog.bettercrypto.com/?p=1008
14:28 < nsh> lol
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14:38 < user7779078> ol whats that person's deal? are they just spewing nonsense?
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14:45 < gmaxwell> user7779078: in this case it's halarious becuase the parameters he's pushing are widely discredited (they originate from NSA provided unjustified magic numbers).
14:46 < user7779078> gmaxwell: ah, thank you.
14:47 < gmaxwell> user7779078: in general I don't know what up with him. He makes a lot of weakly sensible very loud and over stated allegations about bitcoin. When he started up I'd wondered if he was not right in the head, but now I think he's just trying to make a job for himself as a "bitcoin critic".  Too bad, because the people trying to make a job for themselves out of being critical usually also make genui
14:47 < gmaxwell> ne critics with helpful criticisms look stupid too.
14:47 < user7779078> interesting, not surprising either. someone was bound to do it
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16:07 < op_mul> isn't secp256k1 generally regarded as a good choice, if a little strange at the time?
16:08  * nsh nods
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16:17 < gmaxwell> op_mul: I think right now virtually anyone would regard it as retrospectively the best choice that could have been made at the time.
16:18 < op_mul> right. so this guy is saying, you dodged the bullet, quick go run back in front of it so you can get blown to bits. fabulous.
16:23 < gmaxwell> I can only imagine based on his prior output that he'll take any technical characteristic of bitcoin that he can understand and criticize it... if we'd used the NIST 256r I expect he'd criticize that too (in which case, I'd agree with him).
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16:58 < op_mul> gmaxwell: you fools, why are you adding more DSA, where's the lamport signatures??
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20:25 < maaku> tacotime / Aquent: I don't think it's fair to call the fed-peg 'a centralized sidechain'
20:26 < maaku> it has a non-dynamic membership set signature (say 5-of-8 multisig) covering the movement of bitcoin _only_.
20:26 < maaku> a hypothetical asset issued on the sidechain, and what you do with the bitcoin on the sidechain is still 100% decentralized-like-bitcoin
20:31 < maaku> *movement of bitcoin between chains
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20:58 < Luke-Jr> maaku: well, if the functionaries conspire and decide to be more than a functionary and make value judgements on what you do with bitcoin on the sidechain, it's *possible* that could change.
20:58 < Luke-Jr> but that's a lot of "if"s
21:01 < maaku> right, but the sidechain still isn't centralized
21:01 < maaku> just the process of moving btc on or off of it
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21:37 < petertodd> gmaxwell: I met that guy two weeks ago; strikes me as an unrealistic and unwordly academic
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21:40 < gmaxwell> amusingly most of the academics I know, and I know more than a few don't strike me as unrealistic or unduely unworldly at all (though sometimes there are some obvious expirence holes. "oh, you don't know why they do that? llleeemmmee tell you a story...")
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21:46 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, is... is he serious about secp256r1 over secp256k1???
21:46 < Luke-Jr> maaku: my point was that "the sidechain" is "determined" by its "best block", but from a bitcoin-the-unit focused perspective, that "best block" is now decided by the functionaries rather than its real consensus mechanism - therefore (from that perspective), it can be argued to be centralised
21:46 < gmaxwell> well go look at his other stuff, a lot of it is wtf. That one is just nice because you don't need to know anything about bitcoin to know that it's an attack for the sake of attacking.
21:47 < maaku> Luke-Jr: the best block of the sidechain is not determined by the functionaries.
21:47 < Luke-Jr> maaku: it is from the perspective of someone who only cares about bitcoin-the-unit
21:47 < maaku> It's chosen by the miners.
21:48 < maaku> That's a warped perspective, which is my point.
21:48 < Luke-Jr> yes, but it is a perspective, nonetheless
21:48 < phantomcircuit> maaku, in theory miners can check the functionaries work, in practice probably not in a useful way
21:49 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: well, it'd be the same as a reorg
21:49 < phantomcircuit> do you as a bitcoin miner really decide to not extend a block because you think the functionaries made a mistake in it?
21:49 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: in important point though is there isn't any ambigiuity about what they've agreed and promised to do.
21:49 < maaku> phantomcircuit: the point is that there are applications in the asset issuance space where bitcoin is kinda a side issue
21:50 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, can you expand on the pronouns there
21:51 < maaku> if what one cares about is the assets that are issued on the sidechain, and bitcoin is just a way of moving external currency in and out
21:51 < maaku> but a user really cares about the issued assets, then it is a bit disengenous to say that the sidechain is 'centralized' because moving bitcoin on or off it requries agreement from a gruop
21:51 < phantomcircuit> maaku, oh.. yeah that's accurate
21:52 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: ah, federation. It's clear what protocol the federation has agreed to follow, which makes them somewhat (legally, if not trustlessly) distinct from freeform signers.
21:53 < phantomcircuit> right
21:53 < phantomcircuit> i assume maaku was saying that bitcoin miners would reject blocks in which the functionaries violated that protocol
21:54 < phantomcircuit> that seems fairly unlikely without direct incentives to do so (and even then probably has scaling issues)
21:54 < gmaxwell> oh no. that isn't something I've ever seen anyone suggest as a thing before. It's technically possible.
21:54 < phantomcircuit> so practically as the federated peg exists today the bitcoin part of it is ... federated
21:55 < gmaxwell> we discuss in the sidechains paper a 'risk of softfork' where bitcoin miners reject 2wp transfers that are fradulent (which they can tell because they're also sidechain nodes); which is morally equivilent, I suppose.
21:55 < Luke-Jr> hm, it makes sense for miners who are interested in the sidechain to do that
21:55 < maaku> yeah, not what I meant to imply
21:55 < gmaxwell> Though it's posed as a risk since it compromises the intended isolation. (though it does have an advantage, security wise)
21:55 < phantomcircuit> maaku, good to know
21:56 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: it doesn't, though - as long as the blocks are valid, it's perfectly fine if miners reject tranactions like that
21:57 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, this probably wasn't clear, but i meant rejecting blocks which have already been mined
21:57 < phantomcircuit> ie a softfork
21:57 < Luke-Jr> it may be ineffective when a miner who isn't doing it gets involved - but it gives the real sidechain an opportunity to do a double-spend of it
21:57 < phantomcircuit> which i think is what gmaxwell was referencing being in the paper
21:58 < Luke-Jr> so maybe the miner should not only reject the rule violation, but also get other functionaries to sign off on something double spending it
21:58 < Luke-Jr> although that requires M to be <= N/2
21:58 < phantomcircuit> hmm
21:59 < phantomcircuit> i guess you could have a separate threshold which did something like required all the functionaries to sign off as a panic button
21:59 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yea, its in the paper with respect to the 2wp. Technically it could also be done with the plain functionary use; but I don't think of that as especially interesting; esp since it propagates instability.
21:59 < phantomcircuit> fraud proof gets published and a small number of the functionaries can hit the panic button
21:59 < phantomcircuit> but that could end poorly
22:00 < Luke-Jr> if the panic button is some kind of "wait for SPV/SNARK peg softfork", it might be okay - but that really complicates it IMO
22:01 < phantomcircuit> well and possibly screws with the incentives a bit much
22:01 < phantomcircuit> since a small number of functionaries can basically freeze the coins in such a scenario
22:02 < gmaxwell> well a cute thing you could do is have scriptpubys that look like N of N   OR  (timelock AND M OF N).
22:04 < Luke-Jr> it may be good to pick functionaries who explicitly are not organizational miners, so that colluding is necessary to break the setup
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22:05 < gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I don't like that just because everyone in Bitcoin-business should be mining.
22:05 < gmaxwell> (at least to some extent)
22:05 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: fair
22:06 < Luke-Jr> maybe require some policy where the entities managing the functionary don't also manage the miners
22:06 < Luke-Jr> ?
22:07 < gmaxwell> it's not a concern so long as mining is reasonably well decenteralized (oops)
22:09 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: if the functionaries go rogue, it would help slightly if they were unable to get their fraud transaction mined
22:10 < gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: this is assuming that miners have taken it on themselves to IsStandard (or even softfork check) the validity. The former seems at least somewhat unlikely, and the latter is undesirable.
22:10 < Luke-Jr> well, aside from development time to implement it, the former seems ideal
22:10 < Luke-Jr> for miners who are already validating the sidechain
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22:12 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that's what i was originally thinking, but does the timelock stuff actually work now?
22:13 < maaku> gmaxwell: I like the timelock construction
22:13 < phantomcircuit> i thought petertodds patch was to make the an op you could do in the script system
22:13 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: whats needed for that is CLTV.
22:13 < phantomcircuit> yeah
22:13 < gmaxwell> But we'll have that fairly soon.
22:14 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5496
22:15 < Luke-Jr> not sure how timelock is this particular case
22:15 < Luke-Jr> seems more of a use for "ohnoes too many functionaries lost their keys in the same week"
22:17 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, you hit the panic button, which sends them to potentially a different set of functionaries
22:17 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: how does timelock help with that?
22:17 < Luke-Jr> panics can't wait
22:17 < phantomcircuit> the timelock is for the new functionaries to spend the funds
22:18 < phantomcircuit> oh i read what gmaxwell wrote wrong
22:18 < phantomcircuit> nvm
22:18 < gmaxwell> well they could be different keys, I suppose.
22:18 < gmaxwell> the notion there was to require unanimity normally, but if keys are destroyed you're not stuck forever.
22:18 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: but you need a way to trigger it immediately for this
22:19 < gmaxwell> But if some keys are lost, the unanimous group can sweep the funds.
22:19 < Luke-Jr> right, it works for that
22:19 < phantomcircuit> i dont think you can do what i was thinking, which is allow for n-1/m to send the funds to a new script which was itself timelocked
22:19 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: no, you can't currently.
22:19 < phantomcircuit> the idea being that hitting the panic button gives people some time to figure out what happened
22:19 < phantomcircuit> yeah i didn't think so
22:19 < Luke-Jr> for that, I think we'd really want ultimate-p2sh
22:20 < Luke-Jr> but by then, no need for functionaries
22:22 < phantomcircuit> you could have functionaries sign transactions in advance which move the funds to the panic p2sh address and simply have various functionaries not sign the transaction
22:22 < phantomcircuit> yeah i... think that would get the intended behavior if you had CLTV
22:22 < Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: +1
22:23 < phantomcircuit> there's uh "details" about that which i haven't thought through
22:23 < phantomcircuit> such as whether you could do that without accidentally giving someone a full set
22:24 < phantomcircuit> oh you could put the functionaries address in part of the tx that gets signed
22:24 < phantomcircuit> neat
22:26 < maaku> phantomcircuit: you don't really need that in script. the functionaries could be keeping unbroadcast transactions which send all outputs to cold storage
22:28 < maaku> (using SIGHASH_SINGLE signatures so it's easy to rework as peg transactions come in)
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22:33 < phantomcircuit> maaku, yeah but then any 1 functionary can do it
22:34 < phantomcircuit> you really want to have n/m where n is < the normal n
22:34 < phantomcircuit> but yeah if n is 1 then you can just do that
22:34 < maaku> that's what you want right?
22:34 < maaku> meh, the point of the panic button is to be easy to do
22:34 < phantomcircuit> maaku, not really since you might have lots of functionaries and only kind of trust them
22:35 < phantomcircuit> so allowing any one of them to hit the panic button might just be super annoying
22:35 < maaku> in the time it takes for N>1 functionaries to coordinate, the funds could be stolen
22:35 < maaku> there are out of band mechanisms to mitigate that
22:35 < maaku> the functionaries are going to be executing legal agreements
22:35 < maaku> there could be fees, etc.
22:36 < maaku> the point of the fed-peg is that you don't have to get this all sorted out on chain ;)
22:37 < maaku> while we work on a more DMMS, less trusted solution
22:37 < phantomcircuit> maaku, well i was thinking you'd convince miners to prioritize the panic button tx's
22:37 < phantomcircuit> it's a race either way though
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